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Kurt Thomas traded to Sonics

File this under "ugh" (for now). AZCentral is reporting that Kurt Thomas has been traded to Seattle, along with TWO first-round draft picks (2008 and 2010) in exchange for an $8 million trade exception, and a future conditional second round pick. I really hope this is just the first part of a bigger deal. If not, the Suns' aspirations for winning a championship just got dealt a huge blow. We are now down to Amare all by himself at center (unless they're expecting Sean Marks to get some time). If this is all there is to it, then we are badly going to miss Kurt Thomas, not only for his mentoring of Amare, but also because we have, well no one else who can even kinda-sorta guard the likes of Tim Duncan. (Anybody want a repeat of Duncan laughing at Boris Diaw's attempts to cover him during the playoffs? Nope? Didn't think so.) I'm going to try not to get too infuriated by this until we know whether or not there's more to it. Who knows, maybe we're going to get another announcement that they found another (maybe even upgraded) big man to replace KT, and then I'd feel silly for posting a tirade. So for now, I'm going to take a wait and see approach. But if this is all there is to it, I have to say I'm not a happy fan right now.

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hopes
Despite the fact that I feel like a small child crossing his fingers for Christmas, I really believe that the Front Office has something bigger in mind. And if this is incorrect, then maybe there is another reason why KT needed to go. We did it in 2005-2006 without Kurt Thomas AND Amare Stoudamire.

I might go pray or something....

by ASUmike on Jul 20, 2007 11:36 AM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sigh
Let us pray that we manage to sign another worthwhile big in his place.  I dare not think what our frontcourt will be like without someone backing up STAT.
"Ultimate excellence lies not in winning every battle, but in defeating your enemy without ever fighting." Sun Tzu

by Turambar on Jul 20, 2007 12:21 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That move should now put us under the cap, right?
Someone completely knowledgeable on our cap situation, please explain if this gets us under and keeps us out of luxury tax territory?

If it does get us under, how much under?  If it doesn't, how much more do we need to cut to get under?

I, too, think that our off-season moves are not over yet.

It would be completely stupid to just have Stat and Marks as our only two bigs... and Stat is really a PF.

If we're gonna compete for a championship, we've got to bring in a true big who can defend.

"I am not a role model. A million guys can dunk a basketball in jail, should they be role models?" - Charles Barkley

by kcbrett5 on Jul 20, 2007 12:31 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Cap Space
I am not COMPLETELY knowledgeable on the Salary Cap, but I do know that the 8 million trade exception and the loss of KT's salary makes it possible for a lot of things to happen, up to and including a KG trade. As long as we make a trade, this was not a bad deal.

by ASUmike on Jul 20, 2007 12:58 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bigger Sigh
Didn't the FO say that they weren't going to make trades unless it would make the team better?  Gee, why not give them the pick from Atlanta to go along with our 2008 and 2010 picks?

by TwinnerA on Jul 20, 2007 12:37 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Musta meant
"make the other team(s) better"!

by marionette on Jul 21, 2007 3:53 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

See what happens.....
I get back home from a perfect fishing and golfing trip from MN, and this is what happens?????

Not happy.  

by USMCGUNZ on Jul 20, 2007 12:42 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Update?
TexSun,

I did not make an UPDATE to your post. I saw that this was not reported on this blog, that is why I opened a diary on it. If you had already posted the news, I would have simply commented on it.

by Vash01 on Jul 20, 2007 12:45 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Update
Ok, here's the deal. I had already started writing a story on this and got interrupted with work. Since I already had it mostly done, I posted it. But I saw that you had already beaten me to it and written something, so I updated my story to mention you. Sorry for the confusion.

by TexSUN on Jul 20, 2007 12:54 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I changed it to an "editor's note"
Again, sorry for the confusion. I know you got there first, but darn it, I wanted to say my peace as well. :)

by TexSUN on Jul 20, 2007 12:56 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Goodbye
I think I have seen enough of this board. It was fun while it lasted.

Goodbye.

by Vash01 on Jul 20, 2007 1:21 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

CBA Mechanics
Rebound,

Here's how it works.

The Suns are not under the cap and have no chance of being under the cap. What they're trying to get under is the luxury tax threshold which is different from the cap.

The 07-08 Salary Cap is 55.6M. Any team under that number can sign a player for however much they are under the cap plus 100K. So if you're 4M under the cap you can sign a player for up to 4.1M. If a team is over the cap then it can only sign players to a minimum contract unless it uses an exception. Such exceptions include rookie scale exceptions, Bird exceptions, Mid-level exceptions, bi-annual exceptions (which we used to sign Hill). Eventually, however if a team uses too many of these exceptions to exceed the Salary cap they'll reach the Luxury Tax threshold, which is where the penalties start.

The 07-08 Luxury Tax threshold is 67.7M. That means for every dollar a team spends over that threshold, they will have to pay another dollar to the league. So if you're 10M over the tax line then you owe the NBA 10M in addition to still having to pay your salaries.

So what the Suns are doing is trying to get under the Luxury tax threshold not the Salary cap. Before the KT trade, but with Marks' new contract, were right about at 77M. So we were 9-10M over the luxury tax. Because we traded away KT and his 8.1M dollar salary for an 8M trade exception (which doesn't count against our cap number), our number is now at 69M. So we're still paying about 1.3M in luxury tax which is not bad.

But there's more. First, don't forget that we got 3M dollars for the 22nd pick, so you can essentially subtract that amount from our number, since we'll be using it to cover salaries/luxury tax. So right now, essentially, we're at 66Mish, and under the tax. Unfortunately, however, we only have 11 players under contract. So we'll need to sign at least one more (likely two or three more).  Because the Suns are in savings mode, it's likely those salaries will be at or near the minimum, so you can expect another 2-2.5M in salary. This means our final number, subtracting 3M for pick money, is somewhere btw 68 and 69M, putting us slightly above the tax, which I hope Sarver can tolerate.

We should also talk about the Trade exception. We've got 8.1M dollars to work with. We can't use that money to sign players, but we can use it to trade for a player, but only in a single player trade. Also it expires in a year. Also we can split it up.

I don't really see the Suns using it, however, because whatever salary we acquire for the trade exception will count against our cap number and thus make us pay just as much tax as we were paying before the Thomas trade. So if the move was to save money, as it appears, then the Suns would screw their whole point by using the exception, since we'd just get the money back on our number.

So expect 2-3 more minimum or near minimum salary players, and a serious lack of frontcourt depth.

G

by rosewood on Jul 20, 2007 1:02 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nice
ultra helpful!

by ASUmike on Jul 20, 2007 1:24 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks for taking time to explain this, Rosewood
Wow, I actually learned something today.

Too bad, our Suns will be worse off inside the paint than they were last season.

So much for expecting us to improve defensively in the upcoming year.

"I am not a role model. A million guys can dunk a basketball in jail, should they be role models?" - Charles Barkley

by kcbrett5 on Jul 20, 2007 1:42 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe PJ....Who cares about the picks
Would be great to pick up PJ Brown if still available.  He's like a crazy eyes clone anyways.  Get him on the cheap (ala grant hill for a year or two) and get a decent big with the Atlanta pick to groom.  

I don't feel too bad about giving up the '08 and '10 picks.  I heard it was an exchange for a Seattle '08 second rounder.  That could be like giving up a #30 (suns=best record) for a #31 (sonics=worst record) if all goes to plan.  Seattle will be AWFUL for a least a couple of years.  Plus, those 1st rounders would have been guaranteed contracts.  Why take a gamble on a kid when it seems like most established players in the league would love to play for the Suns.

by judacris on Jul 20, 2007 2:07 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ya'll wanted pictures
How about this? AZCentral's Dan Bickley makes a picturesque blog entry about the KT trade.

by TexSUN on Jul 20, 2007 2:52 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not a good trade
So going into the off season our two biggest needs were; 1) shot blocking/defensive big man.  2) back up poing guard.

The Suns go out and draft two swingmen (although I am hoping DJ can become a back up point guard but that's the kook-aid getting to me) and sign another swingman (Hill).

Granted all three new additions are good players but they did not address our needs for the THIRD year in a row.  Don't buy into the line about Grant Hill taking the load of Steve Nash because of his play making skills.  They said the same thing about Boris last year and you can't count on Hill being healthy.  

I just heard Kerr on talk radio suggest that Sean Marks would get some playing time and we would be surprised at how well he plays... translation....the Suns are done dealing.  There won't be any PJ Browns or the likes coming to town.  To bad they don't give out trophies for the most entertaining regular season...we would be a dynasty.

by jayco on Jul 20, 2007 3:04 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They have to make at least one more move
They have to fill one more roster spot to bring them to the minimum number of players. So they will be picking up another player somewhere.

This whole thing still seems "fishy" to me. So much so that my initial reaction to reading the news on AZCentral was that somebody mistakenly thought it was April Fool's day. I can understand giving up KT, but not why they needed to dump two draft picks to do it. I would have thought his expiring contract would have been an asset down the line, not something they needed to give away the (future) farm just to get rid of. I still think something else is up. We'll have to wait and see I guess.

by TexSUN on Jul 20, 2007 3:09 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nothing else is up
TexSun,

I promise you nothing else is up. The Suns will still be over the tax threshold once they've filled out their roster (at least two more players; no team starts a season with only twelve). Check out my post "CBA mechanics" a couple spots up. It explains why they won't make it move, at least no significant move. It makes no finanical sense.

I do agree that Strawberry is certainly on board. And maybe Pape Sow.

But about the picks:  the 2008 pick I don't care about. We've still got the Hawks pick and looking at our salary picture, I doubt we would have kept both anyhow. But the 2010 pick is irritating. By then our current window will likely have narrowed if not just closed and retooling will be key. That 2nd round pick doesn't help as much.

G

by rosewood on Jul 20, 2007 3:17 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One other thing
This probably solidifies DJ Strawberry's chances of making the team even more than they already were. Unless he completely falls apart in training camp, I'd say he's in.

by TexSUN on Jul 20, 2007 3:11 PM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sean Marks part II
They will fill another roster spot but it will be another Sean Marks type of player.  They won't sign anybody who will crack the rotation.  By making this trade as "rosewood" pointed out they got to where they want to be.  By making an significant move they go over the luxury tax again.

by jayco on Jul 20, 2007 3:14 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow - spend a few hours working...
and look what you miss!

Ok - so my thoughts

First - Thank the blogolords for Rosewood and his legal eagle understanding of the CBA. I don't have the patience or temperment to be either a lawyer or appearantly a fully informed fan. Fortunately, we have our own "in blog" expert in Rosewood. Thanks!

Next - just yesterday I was talking about a deal w/ the Sonics that would have brought Wilcox and another player to the Suns for KT but I guess that wouldn't have helped get under the LT. That was a rumor someone else brought up btw.

Thirdly - CLEARLY the Suns have even more need for a big. Duh. I would have loved to see this deal include either Petro or Sene and throw in Pike as well. I look at the Sonics roster and this deal makes SO much sense. Pike could actually contribute on a Sonics team already LOADED w/ bigs. Oh, and with Petro you get another Frenchie and as far as I am concerned you can't have too many of those on your team.

Finally - there's no way the Suns are done. I don't know what PJ Brown's status is and if he qualifies for an exception or if the Suns have their eye on someone else but there is NO WAY this season starts with only two bigs and one of them named Marks even if the other is a 1st team all NBA stud. Perhaps the trade exception can be "packaged" w/ Banks to sweeten the deal and get back a big in the MLE range and stay about LT neuteral. I really think Banks has a bad rap and can play well for someone. Unfortunately on the Suns he's # 3 on the depth chart and there's a decent looking #4 (DJ) right behind him too.

So - I am not satisfied w/ the current roster but not in the least bit discouraged by this deal as of late July. If nothing happens by Oct then that's another story...

by Phoenix Stan on Jul 20, 2007 5:27 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Trade exception
That trade exception Seattle got from Orlando really threw me off. I thought for sure Seattle was looking to move a couple of bigs! But its obvious that Sarver is not wiling to pay the luxury tax. The 2010 pick was too much to payment to get rid og KT's salary. By 2010 both Marion and Nash could be gone and Amare will be in his last year. The irony is that we could be giving Seattle a high pick, like the one we were counting on from Alanta. The following year Amare will be the most sought after free-agent in the league and in his prime at 27. A contender offering a max. contract and I'm sure Amare will be gone also. Portland's Oden will have three years exp. and Seattle's young team will be three years older plus FIVE more 1st rd. picks in the next three years. I'm afraid to even think of what the Suns might look like in 2010! How quickly the mighty could fall! In contrast, S.A. has their big three under reasonable contracts and five or six international players developing overseas waiting for their moment. Didn't Sarver pick-up a copy of "How-to-run an NBA team for Dummies" when he took over?

by Mihajlo on Jul 20, 2007 6:50 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It is the MONEY, stupid.
"Just Give Me the Cash" Sarver will destroy the Suns and sell the team after the 2009 season.  

by OneSunsFan on Jul 20, 2007 7:29 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm getting more and more depressed
As much as I don't want PJ Brown on the team, we need him now and Kerr says Brown's most likely going to retire.

I still say we need the Predator (Turiaf) -- more than ever.  Diaw as STAT's back-up?!  Oh, man, I can't do this anymore.

Amare's "broad shoulders" are going to have learn to defend this summer.

Donaghy reffed the Game 3 against SA, in which Amare played only about 20 minutes.  Maybe Amare will finally get a fair shake.

Yes, it would've been expensive to keep KT, but for one more year?  For one more run at it?  Who the hell else are they gonig to get to fill in?

Please, please, please tell me that this was a move to get some more money to land KG.  Just lie to me so I can stay delusional for a litle while longer.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on Jul 20, 2007 11:06 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

KG
This only makes it hareder to acquire KG because I don't think the Suns are allowed to package the trade exception to match KG's salary. If the expert on the CBA would please like to comment, inquiring minds would like to know, thanks!

by Mihajlo on Jul 21, 2007 8:14 AM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Trade exceptions
Trade exceptions are tricky. They can be used in package deals, but it's a little complicated. Let me explain.

Trade exceptions are created when two teams make what is called a "non-simultaneous" trade. This means that one team (Team A) sends, for instance, an 8M dollar player to another team (Team B) for a No.5 pick. If Team A was not under the cap, then it acquires an 8.1M dollar trade exception (8M plus 100K). All this means is that Team A now has one year to use that 8M dollar trade exception to "complete the trade," so to speak, meaning it can acquire up to an 8.1M dollar player without giving up equal value. The team also doesn't have to use all of the exception in one trade. So if they wanted to trade for a 4M dollar player with Team C and a 4.1M dollar player with Team D that would be fine.

The key to "non-simultaneous" trades however is that they have to be created in single player trades, i.e. when no more than one player is given away be either team. So trading two 2M dollar players for an 8M player doesn't create a 4M exception, whereas trading a 4M for an 8M does.

Once a trade exception is acquired it can only be used to trade for players (not to sign free agents) and can't be packaged with anything else.
So the Suns can't package Marion and the exception for KG.

But...a team can still make its TE part of a large multi-player deal as long as it structures that deal as a set of non-aggregated single player trades.

Example: We want KG and we want to use our TE to help acquire him. We've got an 8.1M trade exception for the Thomas trade. Well, then we could do this (not that this is a good trade but it works): We could trade Marion and Diaw and for KG in one trade and then immediately send our 6.4M of our TE to the Wolves for Mark Blount and take his crappy contract off their hands. So, in essence, it's two trades but it all happens at once so it looks like a big multiplayer deal.

And that's how we could use it in a package. The important thing is that in what ever individual trade the TE is part of (here for Blount) it can't be packaged with anything else.

Hope that helps.

G

by rosewood on Jul 21, 2007 10:37 AM MDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

HAVE FAITH, YE SUNS FANS!
Ok, so the SUNS just gave away their lone backup center whose presence almost always translated to greater success in the Win column due in no small part to the fact that KT DEFENDED, REBOUNDED, SET PICKS and SHOT very well.

For the love of BLACK JESUS...

What are we going to do now?

Who will replace KT's presence for the already-undersized SUNS?

Whatever happens between now and October, the SUNS have much to feel good about. This team has lots of room to improve both collectively and individually, and any way you slice it, this is one of the most formidable squads in the league. The best part is that the answer lies "within". The SUNS side of the Force is most powerful, and the young playas such as Le Boris, Meep Meep, BLACK JESUS and the rookies can all raise themselves above their own limitations to make the 2007-2008 SUNS a truly feared team.

This is an opportunity. And hell, who else could the SUNS have dropped and saved as much money while still keeping their roster largely intact?

Have faith!

by The Humongous on Jul 21, 2007 11:27 AM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Butler
Whats with the new name? Anyway, I think the Suns should pick-up Melin Ely for the veterans minimum and I'd be quite content with the roster as is. Ely is a former #12 pick who is a solid big who has lasted seven years w/o a real opportunity to play. If he could be productive for the same 18 minutes that KT played it would be considered a successful signing. He has size and some skill and can rebound and block shots. We have nothing to lose and Ely has everything to prove. D'Antoni was actually trying to acquire him when it would have cost us something, this would at least make one of those 1st rd. picks we gave away worth something.  

by Mihajlo on Jul 21, 2007 6:00 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mike
Well, I got that name from the Road Warrior..Melvin Ely could shore up the size issue, but can he run?

by The Humongous on Jul 22, 2007 9:51 AM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ely
I'm, thinking he must be able to run if D'Antoni wanted to trade for him earlier. But you invite him to camp and find out. The guy would be very motivated to come to a championship caliber team without any bigs to compete with. All he has to do is show that he can keep up, block a shot or two, rebound and keep his eyes open for that unexpected pass when he is left all alone at the basket. The guy left Fresno State as their all-time leading scorer, so  hopefuly he has soft hands!  

by Mihajlo on Jul 22, 2007 1:33 PM MDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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