Must Click Link Monday
Here's two must clicks for Suns fans....
Suns history buffs absolutely must listen to this fantastic and fascinating podcast interview with Neal Walk. There's a lot more to this guy beyond famously being known as the consilation prize after the Suns lost the Lew Alcindor coin toss in 1969. Suns.com continues to crank out loads of great content.
via www.jewishaz.com
Jon over at Basketball-statistics.com breaks down the numbers on the Shaq trade and determines:
Overall, he’s a decent post presence because of his solid rebounding and sheer size, but you can do better. For $20 million, you can do a lot better.
Ed Note to bloggers. Agreeing with my long held positions will almost always get you a link from this site.
0 recs |
7 comments
Comments
Who?
It’s an easy thing to say…but who can you get that’s better?
If I give you $20 million to get a new center, who do you get?
Just playing Devil’s Advocate here….
by sunsblogger on Oct 14, 2008 9:50 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Anywho
This is the original question from back when I first opposed the trade. Who else would you have taken.
First – to set the ground rules. There are two different ways to answer that. One assumes you are keeping Marion at least through this season (if you didn’t opt out) and the second that he needed to be moved.
The trade possibilities are endless and made even more so if you have to go back in time and sort out all the details. So I will respond in general but realistic terms.
To be clear – my preference all along was to keep Marion through the end of last season. If he needed to be traded then it could have been done this summer.
This discussion of course ties in nicely to the talk about D’Antoni and KT over here. I argue that the D’Antoni simply would not accept a big man that he didn’t feel was a big time offensive threat. That’s why KT had a career low in minutes per game w/ the Suns and why the team rightly let him go instead of paying $16m for him to not really play (I would think they could have got more in return though).
So – to answer your question I would have like to see the Suns get any number of bigs to play the role of defensive center. That would have allowed Amare to play the 4 and kept Marion at the 3 and Diaw and Hill off the bench.
Just throwing out some names here now…
Diop was available. Milic could have been had. Perhaps if you needed to trade Marion then a deal that included Bogut? How about Brandon Hayward? Nazr Mohamed? Could Marion have gone to the Bobcats for Okafor and Felton?
But my favorite all time idea would have found a way to bring Johann Petro here to play 20-25 mpg next to Amare and Marion. Athletic. Long. Decent hands. This is a guy that made less then $2m/yr. I have to think the Suns could have found a way to get him. If Mike would have played him that is.
We can bounce names all day but the main point is this.
Shaq at $20m/yr is over paid and a drain on the salary cap. I have to believe there were better options available but the team was limited by what D’Antoni’s system and who he wanted. They supported him and rightly avoided bringing in players (especially after the Marcus Banks fiasco) that he wasn’t going to use.
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Phoenix Stan on Oct 14, 2008 10:17 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you just made my point...
The last paragraph of your answer I think made my point. The Suns wanted/needed to get rid of Marion because of his constant whining about not getting enough love from the team and fans. They had to get rid of Banks because he was a drain on the salary cap and was getting paid big money to just sit on the bench.
When the Suns traded for him, Shaq’s contract was for $20 million each year for the next two years. Marion’s contract was $17 million and Marcus Banks’ contract was for $4 million. So by getting rid of a whiner and a pine-rider, they saved $1 million this year.
Let’s go with your first option of needing to trade Marion. Could the Suns have traded for Bogut, Haywood (I think you meant Brendan Haywood), or Mohammed? Remember that contracts need to be within a certain percentage of each other or the trade won’t be approved by the league. Bogut makes $6 million. That wouldn’t have worked. Haywood makes $5.5 million so that couldn’t work either. Mohammed makes $6 million so he’s out as well.
Now we’re back to keeping Marion (who everyone says was destroying chemistry with the team) and trading someone else. Maybe Diaw? Maybe Barbosa? But would the other teams have wanted either of those guys?
And if we would have traded Diaw/Barbosa for any of the three main guys you mentioned, would D’Antoni have played them? If not, we’re screwing the chemistry up even more.
I guess all I’m saying is: It’s easy to hate on the trade. But the team seems to have a lot better chemistry now than it did this time last year, the Suns have a new coach that may be able to get Shaq to participate more, Shaq is able to teach the young guys (both Amare and Lopez) some things and it seems like Shaq is really trying hard to win this year.
Since we don’t really know what teams were offering or willing to part with, maybe it’s better to see where the team goes this season and review the trade after a full season with the guy.
by sunsblogger on Oct 14, 2008 11:00 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
No fun in that!
I mean come on. If we are just going to sit back and wait for things to play out what would be the point of having a discussion and opinion ahead of time? That’s a perfectly sound approach if I was Mr. Sarver and I was evaluating Steve Kerr’s performance.
But for the blogger/fan/talk radio/etc. the entire point is to have and share an opinion ahead of time. Otherwise all of these discussions would be retrospective.
Speaking of retrospective – It would be hard to argue that the Suns 1st round exit is a better result then would have been achieved by keeping Marion until this summer. He then could have been moved in lots of ways that would have benefited the Suns even if that meant having to live with Banks sitting on the bench and not being used. $17m in salary will get you a lot of talent in this league. Certainly it would have brought back a younger big man and possibly another option for backing up Nash.
As for the trade now – I do think Shaq brings something. Obviously he brings quite a bit. The question is if the Suns needed to spend (and lock up) $20m / yr to get what he brings. I still think the answer is no. Especially if he ends up missing 20 to 40 games this year which is highly likely.
I still feel the deal was rushed and made necessary by D’Antoni’s stubbornness (and let’s not forget who signed Banks to begin with). And please explain to me how we don’t get Miami’s 1st round pick in that deal as well? They were THRILLED to unload Shaq and Banks may very well end up their starting PG.
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Phoenix Stan on Oct 14, 2008 1:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...
At least, on some things. I agree that it would have been nice to get more than Shaq for Marion/Banks. But think about it. They had to take Marion – who didn’t do anything for Miami last year – and Banks – who ended up being “hurt” at the end of the year – for a guy that generates lots of buzz and puts butts in the seats.
Putting butts in the seats doesn’t help the team with the salary cap, but it does help them be able to afford the luxury tax.
Obviously, it’s hard for me to disagree with you that the Suns did better with Shaq than they did without him. And more than likely, getting Shaq when they did cost the Suns a first round exit when winning just a few more games would have given them a higher seed and an easier path through the playoffs.
Here’s something to think about (and something I don’t know the answer to): Would the Suns have re-signed Marion after last year? If not, they let a guy go for nothing – besides saving $17 million. But who could they have picked up during free agency?
Also, could there have been a reason that the Suns ended up having to be on the short end of the stick in the trade? Maybe no one wanted Marion, maybe they saw that he was hard to work with and could be a crybaby and other teams decided he wasn’t worth the risk.
Another thing to think about. The Suns traded Marion and Banks to Miami and there was no guarantee that Marion would stay with Miami. So could the Suns really have gotten more out of Miami? If Marion would have left, they would have been left with Marcus Banks while they would have given up Shaq and a first round draft pick.
I completely agree that the Heat were thrilled to unload Shaq. He had given up on them. It’s possible he could do the same for us.
But I’m going to withhold my final judgment of the trade until this season is over.
A question for you: If (and that’s a HUGE if) the Suns win a championship with Shaq, would you be willing to admit that the trade was a good one? Or is there nothing the team can do to convince you that they made the right move in trading Marion for O’Neal?
by sunsblogger on Oct 14, 2008 4:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes - Eat my words
AND lick his ass for that matter if that’s what it takes.
If it works – and by works I mean Shaq helps the team win the Ring – then by all means. Happy to eat those words. I won’t even put preconditions on that about how well he plays, or if he plays. If he helps win then its worth it. Period.
Which btw is a change from what I said after the trade which was that it would never be worth it b/c he killed the Suns as we knew them. But I’ve come to realize that the Suns needed to Change. I am all about Change this year.
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Phoenix Stan on Oct 14, 2008 4:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Goes both ways right?
So if the Suns don’t win the ring…ok let’s say they don’t even make it to the WCF… then will you agree that the trade was a bust?
Speaking of which – how about Shaq’s leadership and chemistry work today. Nice huh?
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Phoenix Stan on Oct 14, 2008 5:04 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs



















