A 4th quarter the Suns almost didn't lose
Do you believe in moral victories?
Most players would say no.
Shaq was pissed after losing to the Blazers and let it be known. He was so angry after losing to the Spurs he left the building without talking to the media. When Shaq is too mad to talk to the press then you know he's mad.
Even rookie Russell Westbrook after almost beating the Pistons in Detroit responded with a definitive "No" when asked the question by Twittering Matt from AOL Fanhouse.
If a rookie on a 3-27 team can't take some solace in an almost win then there's no reason Suns players, coaches, owners, managers or fans should either.
Hell, even Tim a Spurs blogger has pity on us and thinks we should be mad:
If I were a Phoenix fan, however, I'd be angry, but not at the Spurs. That's too easy. At some point, Phoenix fans just have to call their team out for not having the gall/guile/moxie/dial-a-cliche--balls?--to put the Spurs down. Let's move beyond the tired whiz-bang machinery of excuse-making. It's time. Bruce Bowen has left the building.
Maybe it's too much holiday cheer. Maybe the Bright Side is in my eyes. Maybe I am just a contrarian but I do take a moral victory on this one. Here's why.
The Suns have changed and change comes at a price
The outcome might feel all to familiar but the players have changed. Literally. At least on one side of the ball they have. This is not the same Suns team that's repeatedly been whipped by the Spurs.
There only three players left from the Suns team of two years ago. The coach is gone. The players have changed. And most notably the guy that blew the final assignment has been a Sun for all of five games now.
It's not as if the Suns have practiced insanity by trying the same thing over and over hoping for a different result. No. The Suns are trying different things and getting the same result which should tell you a few things:
1) It isn't all about us. Yes fans it's true. The other team does on occasion deserve some credit and the Spurs as much as we love to hate them know how to win big games. They have a coach that understands what a critical possession means and a team that's been playing for him for a long long time.
2) The mistake that cost this game was obvious. Does Jason Richardson make it again? Not bloody likely and more importantly young Coach Porter isn't going to allow either. This isn't Steve Nash and Mike D'Antoni who got burned by Bowen's three on a very similar play a few years ago.
3) The Spurs really are just evil.
Steve Kerr has made a lot of changes to this team most of which were welcomed by the fans. There are lots more proposed on these digital pages every day but change comes at a price. You take a team that's played together for years against a group of guys with a key player that's brand new and guess what might happen...
Just how good are they anyway?
After giving Pop and the Spurs credit for either great coaching or a well sold soul let's not forget a few crucial plays that didn't go their way:
- With a 1:01 left in a tight game Tony Parker loses his cool after not getting a call (that he didn't deserve) and earned a technical which tied the game. What would we be saying if that had been Amare?
- Parker hit a jump shot with 3:47 left in the game to bring the score to 88-84. The Spurs didn't score again until Mason's buzzer beater. That's 3:46.5 minutes of scoreless play to close a tight game.
- With 3:07 Richardson hit a wide open 3. Why was he so open? Because Duncan and Parker trapped Nash on a high pick and roll leaving Amare wide open with a clear lane in front of him. Ginobili rotated over but was late leaving Amare the easy pass to JRich for the open shot. Manu got his ass chewed on the sideline for that one.
- Finally with 4 seconds left on shot clock (7.7 in the game) the Suns executed the same play they used in exactly the same situation just two weeks before. This time it worked even better because unlike the Magic, the Spurs didn't even rotate over from the weak side and force Hill to make a harder reverse layup. They just watched him sail right in. That's some clutch defense and coaching right there.
So yes, JRich blew it. He should have stayed home on Mason and let Parker throw up a circus shot to at best tie the game. But he's not the only one that made critical mistakes late in a big game.
Besides, the Suns D all night was geared towards denying the lane and forcing outside shots. If he had stripped the ball he's a hero. If he doesn't rotate and Parker manages to beat Hill for the and 1 he's a goat. If Mason misses he's not even mentioned.
Other Notes
- We are quick to give Amare crap around here when his defense is poor or his rebounding effort isn't there. I think we can safely say he's turned that corner (at least for the time being).
- Amare's defense in this game was outstanding. The Suns were switching the pick and rolls leaving Nash on Kurt Thomas or Bonner all night and Amare in isolation against Parker. Time and again Amare got down and defended the crap out of the little guy.
- In the fourth quarter after Duncan hit a nice bank shot against him, Amare proceeded to front Duncan and get a steal and block in the next two possessions. On the block (which was clean as a whistle) Duncan was so upset he intentionally fouled Amare (nice composure there Timmy).
- Overall the Suns defense was much improved. Aside from switching everything on the perimeter (except with Shaq) the Suns clogged the lane and denied Manu and Parker those easy lay ups and managed to keep them off the line.
- It was the Suns offense in the fourth quarter that really sucked. 5 turnovers lead to 6 easy points and Barbosa and Barnes were miserable as they were all night. LB missed two wide open shots and Barnes had a horrible game on both ends.
- At one point Barnes got beat off the dribble by Finely for a layup and then promptly clanked a three with no attempt to work the ball around. If the Suns bench (which is much thinner these days without Diaw) is only going to score two points all night AND let Michael Finely beat you off the dribble....well that's not going to get it done.
- Two of those turnovers by the way go to Nash and both lead to points.
- After Duncan got his 5th foul the Suns were smart to go right at him. Amare's first attempt was forced and poor. The second was well defended by Kurt Thomas from the weak side. The third went in an out and he was CLEARLY fouled.
- Some say you can't give Amare the ball in those circumstances but I totally disagree. Nash wasn't playing well and the Spurs defend him too good anyway. Amare had made a couple of great shots already that quarter and it's just smart basketball to go at the guy with 5 fouls. The Spurs did it against Shaq last year (and it didn't work for them either btw)
- In the end, Amare did make the go ahead play on the offensive end. Porter put the ball in his hands and he delivered the right pass. Again.
Moron Meter
As promised before the game, this one was going to earn Steve some points either way. You have to start with two Moron Points just for losing to the Spurs (again) in a big game and for JRich blowing the assignment. He's also getting a Genius Point though for Shaq and how awesome he was (even from the free throw line). So that's a net 1 Moron Point for those keeping score at home.
Moral Victories
I am glad the Suns are pissed and aren't satisfied with the outcome. This was a very winnable game and they should be mad. If this wasn't only 5 games into Suns v3.0-2008 I would be really mad myself.
As it is, this game came down to the wire. The Suns executed just as well as the Spurs if not better and if not for one shot we would be singing a much different tune. I wasn't thrilled with the close win over the Magic and I am not going to get down over this one.
There's plenty of time left in the season for the Suns to reach some kind of stride and go into the playoff's with everything clicking.
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if they actually reach the playoffs
i mean, the west is so deep, i just hope they dont click too late. utah, dallas and portland are quality teams that will be hard to overtake.
by ryansunsfan on Dec 27, 2008 2:36 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Yes well
of the 8 teams not from LA the most we are behind is 3 games in the loss column. We are right there and all of those teams are flawed.
Utah just lost to the Bucks and Bulls and can’t stay healthy. Dallas is a one German horse town w/ no post game that couldn’t beat Utah w/ no front line starters. The Hornets are having issues as teams learn to contain Paul (sort of) and Tyson isn’t well. The Rox won’t stay healthy. Portland is young and started strong last year and imploded starting around Jan. The Nuggets have JR Smith and Melo who can win or lose any game at any time.
Just saying that none of those teams are a lock and it will almost certainly come down to injuries.
As crappy as the Suns played at times and with all the changes so far I am happy we aren’t further back then we are. I have a hard time seeing this version of the Suns only getting better. Mainly b/c of the attitude, effort and desire I see from them. They are playing hard and as long as we stay healthy I have a hard time seeing us not making the playoffs.
Before the season I thought we were a 6th or 7th seed and a 1st round out. I am more optimistic now then I was then.
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Phoenix Stan on Dec 27, 2008 8:18 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
so deep?
if you look at the top 9 teams, it’s pretty tightly packed. then…you go to the next team after that, and you see a lovely 10-20 record from the memphis grizzlies.
i’m not worried about the suns making the playoffs. i’m going to kind of second everything that stan said already, but here goes. utah is struggling. houston is one season ending injury from one of their stars away from failing. new orleans’ bench isn’t good, and they’re not as good as everyone hypes them up to be. portland is a young (and talented as hell) team that is still kind of finding their groove out there. dallas is riding dirk’s greatness (with a little bit of terry and howard, whose ankle injury hasn’t left him right since the return), with no real other threats whatsoever.
i’m not worried about it.
by iamtrevorpaxton on Dec 29, 2008 4:09 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't get me wrong...
I was upset all of christmas morning… but thinking back on the game now, I agree with most everything. Before the season started, we were expecting this to be a work in progress and that was BEFORE the JRich trade… but we are still in it in the West and as long as we can capitalize on our somewhat easy schedule coming up, we should be good to go.
by brian13 on Dec 27, 2008 11:40 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Be the change you seek...
It’s time that we stop making excuses. This entire organization has been built on a string of excuses. New management, new coach, new style, new everything. The string of excuses never stops:
It’s always so refreshing to watch Popovich coach. He lays into his players, even his stars when they make mistakes… And then they don’t make those mistakes when it really matters (i.e. the playoffs). Now, certainly their success has been borne out of the consistency our franchise could only dream of, but I think that our players need to have and learn accountability. They seem to have a lackadaisical attitude, and I think it stems from years of the whole “let’s just have fun” style. Instead of holding players accountable, we make excuses for them.
Championships aren’t built on excuses. They’re built on growth, teamwork, and acceptance of roles. Hell, you don’t even need a great coach (look at Doc Rivers)….
So, it’s time we all stop making excuses and be the change we seek. No more attempts to downplay the mistakes we make. No more apathy. No more acceptance of losses, and saying “well, they played hard.”
It’s time we became champions. This team has enough talent to win it all. But it’s time for them to be champions rather than a collection of talent.
by ArizonaCactus on Dec 27, 2008 12:07 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
More changes
Totally agree with the last comment, and I would go further, I make more changes in the roster, I would be brave and try a change of Amare + Barbosa X Bosh + Calderon; also would change the rotations and would seek for a power forward or a veteran center giving minutes of rest and quality.
Nash – Jrich – Barnes – Bosh – Lopez
Calderon – Tucker – Hill – Amundson – Sacq
P.D. I hope you understand
by matrix7 on Dec 27, 2008 1:20 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
I disagree on trading Amare. He has been excellent lately. The front court has not been the cause of our problems. Amare has been focused, and whilst he has not been dominant defensively, he has been increasingly attentive and for that we should give him credit. I do not advocate getting rid of him.
by ArizonaCactus on Dec 27, 2008 9:37 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know that the Raptors would make this trade. =)
Everything must go.
by ZonaFlash on Dec 27, 2008 11:08 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
First off...
…anyone suggesting that we trade Amare at this point is ridiculous. He certainly isn’t DPOY material yet, but he has been bringing it on both sides of the court the last few games. Give credit where credit is due.
Secondly, PhoenixStan is right. I was devastated after the loss, but looking back on it, this certainly is a much better way to lose. We didn’t get blown out, we started off very hot, and it took a buzzer-beating three from a former no-name to beat us. I’d take that over a fifteen point loss any day.
Thirdly, the Phoenix Suns v. 3.0 don’t look bad at all. This team is just inches away from being 5-0 since the J-Rich trade, considering that we had a chance to go up by three in the final minute (I think) in Portland on a J-Rich three that rimmed in and out. It took a career night from Roy and a buzzer-beating three to defeat the Suns. They’ve gotten back, somewhat, to their running ways, and team chemistry is starting to build. Toss in the fact that no one else in the West looks as solid as the Lakers do, and this team has every chance to move up in the standings. Are there issues to be worked on? Yes….but this team looks more fluid and happy than it has in a while. Oh, and there’s also this guy called the Big Cactus playing amazing basketball for us too.
by Silkster on Dec 27, 2008 4:23 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Very astute
Excellent analysis, Stan. Definitely more thought out than my analysis. Probably because you were not under the influence of a large turkey meal and several glasses of brandy-infused eggnog.
by Mike Lisboa on Dec 27, 2008 5:32 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Indeed
I let the turkoma wear off before attempting to rewatch the game and give it any thought. Fortunately, we’ve got plenty of time this week to ponder games past.
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Phoenix Stan on Dec 27, 2008 5:44 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with you completely
this was the first game i ever got to attend in real life and man was it fun! of course i would have been happier with the W but im trusting that the suns are learning and getting better. heres to capitalizing on an easy-ish upcoming schedule and continuing to grow as a team.
does anyone have a video or anything of that sweet spin/drive that shaq pulled in the 2nd quarter? he was floating like a butterfly and stinging like a elephant
by yanyanman2 on Dec 27, 2008 6:46 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
That was hilarious
It was like he was moving in slow motion!
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Phoenix Stan on Dec 27, 2008 7:03 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
4 game winnning streak....
The suns should mop up on the next 4 games they play……..And who thinks we should trade Barbosa? It might be time.
by cabezonication on Dec 27, 2008 9:14 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
JSun RichardSun is dead to me!
Until he hits another 3, he is only JRich to me (bloggers can wildly vascillate, right?).
If Parker had beaten Hill, the help defense is the right move. But Hill was all over him. If the Sp*rs were only down 1, then the help defense was the right move. Let Parker hit that shot for the tie. When JRich rotated over, I yelled out and woke my Dad from his Turkoma in his easy chair.
Amare played great … except for missing the three lay-ins. Not quite a complete game. If he makes one or two of those, it may have been his best game ever.
I disagree that this is a “moral victory” — the only time you get a moral victory is when the Freshman or JV team loses to the State Champ Varsity Team on a buzzer-beater (or a short, white bald guy in a V-Neck sweater schools Devin Harris on several plays but still loses 11-9).
However, there is some truth in the cliche that you learn more from losses than victories. Amare did everything right except the last 3 shots. He will do better. The question, though, is will that be enough? I’m also sure the other players and the coaches found areas for improvement. Will that be enough?
Mmmmm ... Guinness
by JSun on Dec 27, 2008 9:50 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
no moral victories for me
im sorry guys but i really have to disagree. the phoenix suns are an almost team. almost beat the bulls for the championship, would have won it all had it not been for amares or joe johnsons injury, would have won had amare and diaw not left the bench. im so frustrated (yes, i have anger issues, lol) but seriously, a win is a win and a loss is a loss. i do realize that the season is far from over, but i consider a 1 point loss to the boston celtics in their home court equivalent to a 50 point loss to the thunder in phoenix – both are losses. heck, its even more frustrating seeing a team that almost got the job done. you cant explode it coz its always a step away but never there. im hoping the suns can get much much better, but i do believe we have all forgotten what every franchise should strive for – a championship. if we know we cant get it with our current lineup, then whats another 50-win season? blow the team up, lets start over. if we think we can, hey, go for it, but lets not take pride in losses.
by ryansunsfan on Dec 28, 2008 8:18 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
Means vs Ends
I think this is the oldest debate for sports fans.
Is the only thing that matters winning a ring or does the journey and entertainment (the true purpose of pro sports) mean more.
I’ve always been a means guy plus I don’t see any trade possible that’s going to get us closer then we are now to winning the ring. Any possible trade that is since Cleveland isn’t going to trade LeBron for Shaq (or Nash).
If you blow up now you can write off this season totally (see also Mavericks, Dallas re. J Kidd trade) and in the end aren’t going to be any closer. There’s a reason you can’t just throw players together and expect to win. Look how long it took the Lakers to get where they are. And the Celtics…um…er…well…
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Phoenix Stan on Dec 28, 2008 9:44 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
im an ends guy i guess, and though i totally disagree, i get your point fully. so yeah, lets agree to disagree but i do appreciate your opinion. =) when the suns finally get over the hump, we can both be happy.
by ryansunsfan on Dec 28, 2008 10:10 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
you can imagine
how frustrating it is for ends guys like me though, with the opinion that this team was built to be 2nd best most of the time. =(
by ryansunsfan on Dec 28, 2008 10:22 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think I could handle having Dunleavy as a coach…How he still remains employed is beyond me.
by ArizonaCactus on Dec 28, 2008 11:34 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree on some level with you Stan. Certainly the journey is important. To grow, to learn, to prosper….All of those values need to be instilled in order to win a championship. And I agree that the journey should provide entertainment tothe fans.
But that can only take us so far. I don’t think this team needs to trade anyone. I think we keep trying to re-invent the wheel here and it’s only setting us back. The roster has plenty of talent at the most important positions; certainly we have enough to win it all…
Hell, I would even argue that Steve Nash played really good defense against Tony Parker on Xmas day!!!
So, to some extent the means are important, as long as the players, coach, GM, and owner realize that each of them need to bear down and work harder to achieve the “ends”….
by ArizonaCactus on Dec 28, 2008 11:42 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't mean their journey as much as mine
They work for us right. Entertainment. If I don’t enjoy it I don’t watch it.
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Phoenix Stan on Dec 28, 2008 12:52 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
It’s a tough loss to stomache since we played pretty well, but I have faith. I definitely like our current version of the Suns much more than the 7SOL Suns in terms of viability in the playoffs. Remember that during our seasons of “WCF/Semis” just about every team outside of the big 3 of Suns-Spurs-Mavs were crap, meaning it was no big accomplishment since we were just feasting on weak stuff back then. Some people love to point to the fact of “playoff success” but seriously, you have to compare the relative strength of the opinions if you want to come up with a rational answer. And objectively speaking, I believe we are an improved team from 2, 3 years past. The only question remaining is whether we have improved enough.
ie, Lakers from 2005 to 2009 rating increased from 65 to 90
Suns from 2005 to 2009 rating increase from 80 to 85
by felixthm on Dec 30, 2008 3:52 AM MST reply actions 0 recs


















