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Change Is Good....Except When It Isn't

Well, what started out as a rumor that seemed too ridiculous for words is looking more and more likely to actually happen. KTAR's Gambo says:

"The Shaquille O'Neal trade to the Phoenix Suns [for Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks] is not a rumor.

In fact, I expect it to happen sometime early afternoon on Wednesday."


Paul Coro of the Arizona Republic reports that Shaq will be in town for a physical tomorrow and has already been in contact with some of the Suns' players. The only thing "saving" us now would be if Miami decides it likes the Mavericks' offer more. Sactown Royalty's Tom Ziller thinks that may be what this is about.

But assuming this really is what it appears to be, this seems as good a time as any to resurrect a post I've started writing many times this season, only to change my mind thinking it was a bit too negative for a site called "Bright Side of the Sun". I was even thinking of putting it up today, fresh on the heels of the recent loss to the Spurs and the Lakers' lucky break, but once again, I decided it would be better off left unsaid. But now I'm in full-blown rant mode, so here goes...

It wasn't so long ago that I re-watched a game from the 2005-06 playoffs. That season, the Suns seemed to be playing with a joy and a passion that made you think they'd play for free if it meant keeping their season going just a little bit longer. They looked like they were having a blast on the court, like there was no place in life they'd rather be than playing with and for each other. Perhaps it was all just an Oscar-caliber acting job, but it made them irresistibly fun to watch. Cut to two years later, and more often than not, the Suns look like the regular season has become "just a job" (or maybe it only seems that way because we fans are spoiled). We've seen glimpses of the heart and resilience that made the 2005-06 squad so special, but it is no longer their defining characteristic. There have been times this season when the Suns have looked like nobody could beat them if they were playing at their best, but there have also been far too many times when the Suns have had the look of a team in need of a change. And not just a little change. An all-out shakeup that would alter the very nature of who and what they are. Change happens. Change is good. It keeps teams from becoming stagnant, and fans from becoming bored. But it has to be a good change.  

For the life of me, I can't see how this change benefits the Suns or Marion either for that matter, other than there being less competition for an All-Star spot in the East. How the heck is Shaq supposed to fit into Mike D'Antoni's system? Or would there even be a Mike D'Antoni's system anymore? Somehow, I don't find D'Antoni's reaction to the news all that comforting:

"Coach Mike D'Antoni said no deal was close on his KTAR-AM show Tuesday."
Really?

One thing is for certain--if this trade does indeed happen, the Suns will no longer be a run-and-gun team. They'll be just another conventional team with a real 7-footer, and everybody playing their natural positions. You know, "built for the playoffs", not for aesthetic value. In a lot of ways, I think the Suns were moving in that direction already, slowly transitioning from Steve Nash's free for all toward a more Amare-centric offense. A trade for O'Neal could certainly speed up Amare's development into the leader he will need to be after Nash (and Shaq) are gone. In that respect at least, the trade makes the tiniest bit of sense. But the Suns would miss the Matrix a lot, maybe much more than they realize. They would be trading a durable guy who defends every position on the floor, and hardly ever misses a game for a guy who's played more than 67 games only once in the past seven seasons. I'm finding it hard to believe the Suns couldn't have made a better deal than an aging Shaq. The only thing I can guess is that perhaps Marion's desire to leave never really went away, and was far more adamant than it seemed on the surface. I was hoping I was wrong about the situation being broken beyond repair, but if the Suns are willing to make this trade, then maybe things are worse than they seemed. Or perhaps Amare finally put his foot down and said "get me a real center or else"? Otherwise, I can't imagine why the Suns wouldn't either take their best shot with the guys they have, or else try to find a better fit for the system. Change is good, but unless I'm seriously missing something, this change seems just plain nuts! On the bright side, I guess if this goes through there should be no more talk about Robert Sarver being cheap or Steve Kerr lacking cajones.

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Done deal
unless Shaq fails his physical

About the Mavs: Broussard's Insider ESPN said that the Suns were indeed trying to snatch Shaq away from the Mavs, scared of a possible Shaq-Dirk-Howard trio. And also due to the huge Lakers frontline. Obviously Marion is the best package for Miami, but is that the best we could get for Marion???

To me, this was a pure Knee-Jerk reaction to the Gasol trade and possible Shaq-to-Mavs scenario added in with Kerr and FO's belief that this team needs to be a halfcourt, playoffs-built team. However, Marion was our glue guy, doing lots of little things that are often not appreciated.
Shaq is a big risk, potential big rewards scenario.

by alta on Feb 6, 2008 1:55 AM MST   0 recs

Here's a nice rant
From the EVT:

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/108325

Kind of wish I hadn't gone back and toned mine down some now.

by TexSUN on Feb 6, 2008 2:07 AM MST   0 recs

I'm kinda feeling free darko on this:
http://freedarko.blogspot.com/2008/02/they-arent-who-we-thought-we-were.html

That said, it's true the Suns haven't exactly felt like themselves all season. Maybe 'the dream' was already dead, and the Shaq deal is just the nail in the coffin, rather than the harbinger.

by NativeArizonan on Feb 6, 2008 3:05 AM MST   0 recs

Another thing...
...does this mean the end of D'Antoni? Is he going to be gone soon?

by NativeArizonan on Feb 6, 2008 3:08 AM MST   0 recs

My purely speculative guess?
Yes. I doubt it would be this season, but I agree with Bordow, there's no way Mike is happy with this trade. No way. I'd even go as far to wonder if Nash is even the right PG for the "new" Suns. Maybe I'm just in a grumpy mood right now, but if we're morphing into just another "dump the ball into the big guy" team, why not bring in a PG that's more defensive minded? Then again, it sounds like the "spin" is going to be that the Suns brought in Shaq because they thought it was the most likely path to a ring before Nash retires, so I'm probably barking up the wrong tree on that one.

Look, I was really hoping that Marion would stay, but had resigned myself to the fact he would probably be gone after this season one way or the other. Plus, I'd never wish a guy to stay in a situation that makes him unhappy, even though I thought he was nuts for wanting out. Still, I can think of any number of deals that would have made more sense than this one. Heck, even the AK-47 deal made more sense than this one. Hopefully, this somehow works out for the best, but right now, I'm just not seeing it.

by TexSUN on Feb 6, 2008 3:43 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

5am. Cant sleep. Deal sux.
   
Orangutans are this year's Lemurs

by Phoenix Stan on Feb 6, 2008 5:09 AM MST   0 recs

Me too
Normally, I sleep like a log, but not last night.  Smells like a desperation move to me.  

by TwinnerA on Feb 6, 2008 8:05 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

Well, I never sleep like a log
Envy and admire people who do. But I'm not usually up posting crazy messages at 5am either.

You know, I'm having trouble even seeing this as a desperation move. Even the word "panic" doesn't adequately describe how wrong this feels. Just seems like the whole world has gone nuts! Or at least the guys who run our favorite sports team.

by TexSUN on Feb 6, 2008 8:27 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

yep
there is little question if this happens, that te idea of 7 seconds or less is being partially or fully abandoned, kerr and d'antoni will not co-exist for long.

between the selling/passing on draft picks and this,
makes you wish bryan colangelo was still around. I think we're in trouble, we needed to do something, but I don't think this was it. If only we didn't value Amare so much, we could've kept marion and had k.g., and nash.....of course, it's silly to bring up now...

what was that movie...the Philadelphia Experiment, we need to call this something like that...

The Shaq experiment is to basic, maybe...

The KerrFOvertheSuns Experiment, yeah, that sounds nice....or ImTheNewGMandI'mTakingOver Experiment...

hmmm....still, there's something really good out there....hmmm....trying to get some little bit of humor out of this, but my stomach is flipping, why
this trade?  

by jasonsuns1 on Feb 6, 2008 8:37 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

Already slowing down
As we have discussed, the Suns have already been slower this year. I had actually been a fan of this b/c its made the Suns 1/2 court offense much much better.

Now, I wonder how much more Steve might be hurting. He's certainly not attacking the rim and running near as much. Are they basically saying this is it. Now or never. I would guess so.

But then the question really is: What are you willing to do to win? Clearly, anything. I am not sure I am on board with that at all but that's a bigger issue.

I will be at the game Friday fully prepared to boo Shaq.

Orangutans are this year's Lemurs

by Phoenix Stan on Feb 6, 2008 8:45 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

Maybe I am wrong here.....
but apparently having the best record in the West doesn't mean anything.....and if it does...Kerr just wanted to show his Spurs loyalty by evening out the playing field to allow his true colors to show.  

I have all the respect for Shaq, but its like putting a square peg in a round hole.  He just doesn't fit.

I know...I don't post here much, but this time I had to say something...sorry

by USMCGUNZ on Feb 6, 2008 6:57 AM MST   0 recs

Moneys--Sarver is NOT cheap? Trade exception?
TexSun made the comment that maybe this would show how the Suns are not cheap. How so? By trading Marion an Banks, about 21 million combined, they take on Shaq's 20 million. Am I right on those figures? Because that would be a net of 1 million saved for the suns. Not to mention the marketing involved with Shaq jerseys and items.

Are they really spending more long term? Maybe... but who knows if they can get a Shaq sized salary restructuring... or the rumored insurance claims. And really, wasn't Marion asking for Shaq-like salary for 3 years anyways? If anything, they just avoided the potential PR nightmare of not paying for Marion's asking price and having the fans revolt (like I did when the would pick up KG). Plus they dump Banks' bad contract on top of it.

My question is, what happened to this 10 million trade exception? Can someone please explain again what that is for? And why the suns wanted it so bad that they would give up Kurt Thomas and two first rounders for it, and then not use it in a deal like this?

I'm praying that there is an unprotected or even a 3 year lottery protected 1st round pick involved.

by longing for KG on Feb 6, 2008 8:30 AM MST   0 recs

Cheapness
"TexSun made the comment that maybe this would show how the Suns are not cheap. How so? By trading Marion an Banks, about 21 million combined, they take on Shaq's 20 million."

Because the Suns stood an outside chance of being rid of Shawn's contract this summer (he has the same agent that talked Anderson Varejao into sitting out half the season in hopes of landing Nene-type money, remember?), and would definitely have been rid his contract after next season. If money was the motivating factor here, they would have just held onto him, or traded him for an expiring contract, not at 36-year-old with $40million remaining. BTW, the insurance thing was a rumor I started. No basis in fact whatsoever. Just me fishing for ways to make the trade make sense.

by TexSUN on Feb 6, 2008 9:23 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

He's still cheap
Getting rid of Marion's contract completely without picking up a big contract would have made Sarver even more cheap than he already is, however, he is still cheap. The purple palace has been sold out the entire year. They've been deep in the playoffs each of the last 3 years. They have one of the hottest brand names in the NBA. I have a hard time believing that it is such a financial burden for them to dabble in the luxury tax arena. I see the suns trading away Kurt Thomas only to stay under the cap as cheap. I see not trading for KG because of Salary concerns as cheap. But then again, it's only cheap because of the financial gains that I mentioned above.

Do you know how their trade exception works?

by longing for KG on Feb 6, 2008 10:23 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

longing for k.g.
I feel the suns not getting k.g. had nothing to do with being cheap or not. The deal was done, the suns had k.g., but marion told boston he would opt out of his boston contract at the end of the year, killing the deal. The suns can't control marion screwing us (the fans and suns) over.

by jasonsuns1 on Feb 6, 2008 10:53 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

And here's another thing that blows
We don't get to give Shawn a nice send off.

Say what you will about the guy - and I am not a huge fan and think that his production did not equal his salary and did/do think he can be replaced - but this is a guy that's been here a long time and almost always busted his ass every night. Even this year he didn't roll over. He didn't suddenly have a "sore hip" or "tight back". He played hard every night.

I don't know why the guy thinks he's worth max $ or why he thinks he should get more touches on the offense but he deserves a LOT of love from the Phx fans. At least I was there for his last game. Saw him battle hard against much bigger and stronger players. Finish at the rim hard and make a few soft layups as well. And of course that hidiously ugly running 3 pointer.

It's like when you don't realize how much you miss your spouse's snorring until you are sleeping alone. I will miss Shawn.

Orangutans are this year's Lemurs

by Phoenix Stan on Feb 6, 2008 8:38 AM MST   0 recs

me also
the fans won't have the chance for a sendoff?

it's a mess, my biggest problem is that marion thinks he needs to be paid more, and he's already the highest paid player on the team, where 2 other players made the all star team and he didn't. Marion is very good, but delusional if he thinks he's the number 1 or 2 on this team.

I can't think of another player though on the suns, who represents the run and gun style better than marion though,

by jasonsuns1 on Feb 6, 2008 8:57 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAT
I just woke up and turned on ESPN... ick.... Yesterday on Gambo and Ash they were talking about MARCUS CAMBY but I guess the Nuggets won't be giving him up.... Well let's just try to look on the bright side... They say never doubt the heart of a champion.... Shaq has won four.... soooo yeah -_-

by whatisboxhappening on Feb 6, 2008 8:41 AM MST   0 recs

This is like Miami
selling their soul for a short championship run.

Sorry, its hard to part with Marion for me, especially for a geriartric Shaq in return.

This could be one of those crazy-but-works type of things! Im hoping it will be and you know Nash will bring out the best in Shaq...whatever's left in him that is.

by alta on Feb 6, 2008 9:09 AM MST   0 recs

alta
I think many people are missing what you just pointed out, if anyone can bring out the best in shaq, it's nash and the amare presence...

I think this might work, without question, if this happens, this is a last ditch effort to get nash a title

I've read too much from people this morning, I'm curious what Nash, etc think. Not that we'd get an honest reaction....

players have to support their gm often...

by jasonsuns1 on Feb 6, 2008 9:15 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

Well...
Okay we're talking about what Shaq would do in the Suns system.... But...what do we do about the loss of Marion??? Maybe a combo of the rookies??? idk... But this just seems to be a year of all teams trying everything possible to win a championship. Who knows :(

by whatisboxhappening on Feb 6, 2008 9:11 AM MST   0 recs

Noooooooooooooooooooo!!!
I think I am in a middle of a really bad nightmare.

Following this team is no longer good for our health! How retarded you have to be to come up with a trade like that?

We are going from the league's best free throw shooting team to Shaq. Who is going to get the rebounds? Amare won't. Maroin would.

I hope this is all a bad joke, and that Shaq missed his SuperBowl return trip and someone is making this up.

Can someone please wake me up?

by emirem on Feb 6, 2008 9:22 AM MST   0 recs

I have calmed down
Do we just get Shaq or someone else too? Maybe a first round pick? In that case this might be a great trade, as Miami will finish in top 3 for the pick ....

In terms of Marketing, the jersey sales will make up for the 20 million ....

by emirem on Feb 6, 2008 9:27 AM MST   0 recs

Just Shaq
As far as I know. I had seen some earlier speculation that we were going to swap Atlanta's pick for Miami's, but I haven't seen anything at all about that in the most recent versions of the story. So until we hear otherwise, I assume it's just a swap of players.

by TexSUN on Feb 6, 2008 9:31 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

Valium, Everyone.
Don't know if any of you have seen this, but Jack McCallum writes what appears to be a pretty level headed piece on this deal that makes some sense. We CAN still run with 4 guys and Shaq inbounding. I also see some good points about Nash in the article as well.

Sorry, I don't know how to link....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jack_mccallum/02/05/heat.mccallum/index.html?eref=si_t opstories

by rc74 on Feb 6, 2008 9:50 AM MST   0 recs

Thanks!
Looks like they've updated that story a little from last night. A few choice quotes:
In a recent phone call to Steve Nash, Shaquille O'Neal assured the Phoenix Suns' All-Star point guard, "I won't let you down."
Great thing to say...now, let's hope his body can make good on that promise.
There have been reports that the deal was made over the heads of the Suns' basketball staff. Coach Mike D'Antoni would not comment, but well-placed sources indicate that he not only acceded to it but also pushed for it.
Sounds amazing if true, but good to know.
The Suns were not, and have never been, a team in turmoil, but it has not been a happy locker room in Phoenix season. Nash, in particular, has become gloomier as the weight of winning a title falls heavier and heavier upon his slender shoulders. (He turned 34 on Thursday.)

"I think this is going to bring a lot of life back to Steve," a Suns source said. "He was very revved up after talking to Shaq."

Interesting... Confirms some of what I suspected about the gloom in the locker room.
But Marion defines the essence of the Suns, a fast-moving, athletic player who is also the most versatile defender on a team not known for defense.
Exactly what I'm worried about. Well, that and the whole "Shaq can't keep up with the Suns" thing. Maybe an opportunity for DJ? He seems like he could be a smaller, 2-guard version of Marion someday.

by TexSUN on Feb 6, 2008 10:05 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

3 years ago
Obviously it's a stretch to compare the shaq of 3 years ago to today.  However, if the level of talent surrounding Shaq now had been present at that time: a sixth man award winner, two-time mvp, Grant Hill, Amare Stoudemire, (several time all-stars), all defense first teamer, most improved player,and coach of the year, this team would be considered a lock for the championship.  A big upgrade from Rick Fox, Devean George, a 39 year old Karl Malone, etc.  Talent wise, this could be the best team Shaq has played for, and look what he has already accomplished.  Not only that, but the Suns are already winning the West before he even joins the team.  

by SilverSprings on Feb 6, 2008 10:23 AM MST   0 recs

silversprings
nice to hear your comments, I agree...I think there is the possibility of this working out really well,
....

by jasonsuns1 on Feb 6, 2008 11:16 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

Big news
You can tell how big this story is by how many of my non-basketball watching co-workers have come up to me asking me what I think of the Matrix/Banks trade for Shaq.  I had one co-worker say he doubts Phx can even go .500 the rest of the season.  Please God don't let that happen!

by TwinnerA on Feb 6, 2008 10:47 AM MST   0 recs

A thought
Who covers Shawn when we play Miami next year (assuming he plays there next year)?
'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Feb 6, 2008 11:39 AM MST   0 recs

I'm more worried about...
...who covers Tony Parker. Or any of the other point guards that Nash, for all his gifts on offense, absolutely, positively cannot hang with on defense. Before, anything Nash lacked on the defensive end was more than made up for by what he gives us on offense. But now...

I had already resigned myself to Marion being gone after this season if not sooner. I was just hoping we would be getting back something in return that made us a better team. This one I'm just not seeing. Guess that's why they get paid the big bucks to run the team and I don't.

by TexSUN on Feb 6, 2008 11:47 AM MST to parent up   0 recs

TP
Understood, but will Parker be charging down the lane with Shaq waiting for him?
'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Feb 6, 2008 11:51 AM MST   0 recs

Until Shaq fouls out
Look, once it's officially announced as a done deal, I'll do my best to get on board. Until then, I reserve the right to complain loudly and often. :)

by TexSUN on Feb 6, 2008 12:13 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

and TP
will just go right around the big Deisel like a he's a giant redwood firmly planted
Orangutans are this year's Lemurs

by Phoenix Stan on Feb 6, 2008 12:34 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

Parker-Shaq
Not when he gets stepped on
'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Feb 6, 2008 1:39 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

More from the Coro post
Got distracted and sent that before I was finished. Here are a couple of interesting quotes that weren't mentioned in the SI article:
Although O'Neal has been out with a hip injury, there is a belief that he will pass the physical because he is in great condition and is said to be at 312 pounds (down from his listed 325 pounds) with low body fat.

Phoenix will have to sign another player after completing the trade because it will be one man shy of the league's 13-man roster minimum. Richie Frahm would likely be a possibility because he spent training camp and preseason with the Suns and was recently with the Clippers.

by TexSUN on Feb 6, 2008 12:17 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

Lakers fan speaking...
I always figured your best chance at winning the championship was to just run everyone off the floor. Do what you do best. And become even faster when the playoffs start. If those suspensions hadn't happened last year, you probably would've won the championship. Now you get rid or Marion, one of your best defenders on the perimeter, for Shaq of all players?? He won't be able to run, and I really don't think the Suns can suddenly switch to a half-court offense. I hear some people saying he's being brought in for defensive purposes, but he's really not that great defensively. He's still a good one on one defender because he can muscle people around, but other then that, he's too slow to do anything. And it's not like I'm mad about this trade. As a Lakers fan, I love it because I think it makes you a worse team. I just can't wrap my head around this trade which is why I'm here.

by Davyjonze on Feb 6, 2008 1:11 PM MST   0 recs

Timeout: Thanks Lakers Fan
(I can't say I have uttered that phrase before)

As you can see, no one here has really wrapped their head around this either. I feel your love.

Now, back to my regularly scheduled Laker-hating...Time in.

Orangutans are this year's Lemurs

by Phoenix Stan on Feb 6, 2008 1:39 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

Davyjonze
haha, thanks for posting, thats funny, I'm waiting until I see 5-10 games played with Shaq before I make my judgement. But it is pretty crazy, the crazy part being how old shaq is, but......just maybe...it works. We don't need shaq to play 40 minutes, we don't need him on the fast break other than an outlet pass (get this, shaq tries to rebound, he doesn't shoot then run away like most of the suns)...I really think this might work. I'll be just as curious to watch miami with marion and see how he does...

by jasonsuns1 on Feb 6, 2008 2:15 PM MST   0 recs

also Davyjonze
your team has pulled off the most lopsided trade I've seen in a long time, I'm very jealous of you getting Gasol, your team has become the favorites to win it all in my opinion, with a close second by boston / spurs / then trailing would be suns/mavs/n.o...

by jasonsuns1 on Feb 6, 2008 2:17 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

ugh
I never thought that Kerr would make me wish D'Antoni was still the Suns GM.

by brian13 on Feb 6, 2008 3:00 PM MST   0 recs

Some of my (random) thoughts
Keep this in mind. I don't care for Shaq in any way. I've always disliked the guy, and that was long before he called the Kings (my favorite team) the "Queens".

It's interesting to see if Shaq can be as effective as he was against a smaller east in a bigger front lined deeper talented West. I guess this means Robert Sarver isn't cheap, or he could't resist. One of the two.

Out of curiosity has Dan weighed in on this at all?

Last not but least I hope all goes well. I think I will return to my trading Artest/Bibby soapbox now.

Bright Side of the Moon or Bright side of the Sun...take your pick

by pookeyguru on Feb 6, 2008 6:23 PM MST   0 recs

Also for those interested in supplemental damage
My hope is that this might encourage Riley to deal for Artest and take Kenny Thomas back in a deal. It would be an intriguing, to say the least, to see Artest Marion and Wade as a core group. Particularly with Haslem and Banks as role players also. This has league wide repercussions, and for the rest of the league, and particularly Petrie, this may open up team's willingness to do deals now that Shaq & Gasol, easily the 2 biggest names moved in the market, have moved to other teams. Should be an interesting 2 weeks.
Bright Side of the Moon or Bright side of the Sun...take your pick

by pookeyguru on Feb 6, 2008 6:26 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

Dan blogs at Sun.com now
Wouldn't be surprised if he posts something there. Check the Suns.com official blogs.

Dan is an eternal optimist. Wouldn't be surprised if he finds a way to like this deal.

by TexSUN on Feb 6, 2008 6:29 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

Oh
Thanks for the info. I haven't checked out his new digs (I remember him making the move).
Bright Side of the Moon or Bright side of the Sun...take your pick

by pookeyguru on Feb 6, 2008 6:48 PM MST to parent up   0 recs

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