Why the Lakers Will Not Become a Dynasty

by JSun on May 20, 2008 10:54 PM MDT Comment 44 comments

I have nothing to back this up -- other than a hunch. So, I'm probably wrong. But I've got this hunch.

The Lakers may very well get past the Spurs. I think a lot depends on whether Pau Gasol can play TD evenly. This is going to be a very big test for Gasol. I've got this nagging feeling that his performance is going to be crucial. Odom is a wonderful gap-filler for Kobe and Gasol, and he's even good enough to carry the Lakers for a good 8 to 12 minutes, but he's proven time and again that he cannot be relied upon as one of the first two major options. Since no one is going to shut Kobe down on either end, Gasol is going to have to step up big time to give Odom the freedom to be free.

So, with Kobe and Gasol, they are a great team. With that bench, they are tough to beat. But, there are great teams in the West and a handful only getting greater.

The "dynasty" talk usually starts with, "When they get Bynum back ..."

You know what? When I hit the Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes I'm going to send someone down to my office to clean it out.

I've got this nagging hunch that Bynum's not coming back to form any time in the near future -- if at all. It's interesting to note that the guy was a "project" with "potential" for several years and has only had half of one decent season. He was averaging something like 13 and 10 and he filled the defensive post rather nicely. However, he did it for a whole 30 games or something.

When looking at Kobe's finger problem, I posted saying that he should get it fixed and reload for next year with Bynum. An astute Laker fan said that the Lakers have had injuries problems for years. I think he was right. I keep thinking of Karl Malone's MCL (or was it ACL) tear being diagnosed as a strain. The Lakers' medical staff nearly killed that statutory rapist.

The Lakers' medical staff kept promising that Bynum would be ready. Are they the same guys from The Money Pit, who kept promising Forest Gump and Diane Chambers that the house would be finished in "just two weeks"? (anyone who's ever hired a contractor knows what I'm talking about)

He's not coming back to camp in shape next season -- even if his knee somehow magically heals.

Also, he was one of those guys who got too big too fast. Didn't he have knee problems in high school?

I just don't think he's going to be the guy that we saw glimpses of in that half-season. Maybe the year after next. Maybe.

If he's not that guy, then the Lakers will be a great team, but not a dynasty. History (i.e., history of the medical staff) says it's not going to happen.

According to these sources, though, Bynum has fully recovered. The Army has yet to steer me wrong.

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That kind of sounds like denial here

I’m going to go ahead and argue these points. To be a dynasty there gonna need some luck don’t get wrong. I seriously doubt you saw bynum play at all except for the games he played against you. He was averaging 13 and 10 and 2 blocks. However he started off very slow and was going to the pace of 17 and 12 in the month he got injured. Also it wasn’t just him getting good it was his teammates trusting him more as the season went on. It used to be like kobe would be the only guy that would pass to him (odom used to get me pretty angry when he had a pass to bynum but decided on the three, well that was the beginning of the year odom). That knee injury from highschool isn’t one of those lasting injuries and I’m not even sure if that was on the same knee he injured now. Also the kind of surgery he is getting should give him enough time to heal, workout and get back into shape when training camp starts. Alot of what made him great this season was just simple natural stuff. Being able to catch the ball good, good footing, he was just getting some confidence. Hes gonna be a good dependable center and maybe even great, theres just to much upside here.
The medical staff for the lakers aren’t as bad as your trying to make it seem by just using one example (Malone was old at that point). Some people heal differently and in this case there might be something stopping the knee from recovering fully which is why there forced to do surgery.

Shaq:"The kobster, he's an assassin" Answer for who should be mvp.

by ldeep on May 20, 2008 11:21 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I saw many of his games

I bought League Pass and I watched as much of the Western Conference as I could, particularly the hated Lakers.

I’m not saying the HS knee injury will continue to haunt him. I’m saying repeated knee injuries are a bad thing, and I’m saying that he has a history of getting them and it might get worse.

Karl Malone was old, but how the hell does a doctor mis-diagnose something like that?

He has some skills and he was improving. I don’t discount anything he did in that half-season; it rightfully gave the Lakers’ fans a lot of hope. I find it somewhat interesting that the “dynasty” tag is being given based on a good half of a season.

I just don’t think he’s going to recover. I’ve got no inside information and no great insight. I’m just looking at the pattern. He may be a serviceable center sometime down the road, but I think the Lakers need more than that and I think its extremely premature for media persons (right now, I’m thinking of Colin Cowherd) to even be flirting with the “dynasty” word based on the guess that Bynum is going to (as I said in the post) return to being a double-double machine and a defensive post presence.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on May 20, 2008 11:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

articles like that

attract attention so I could understand why thats written. I just like the fact that since bynum may (key word here) into something special it could keep kobe on the lakers longer as the pressure falls onto him. I also like the fact that the near future and 5 years down the road the lakers will be alright and not turn into the Miami heat.

Shaq:"The kobster, he's an assassin" Answer for who should be mvp.

by ldeep on May 20, 2008 11:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

also one other question

Why did you watch the lakers so much. You were my rivial of this year and I sorta watched you (I didn’t go out of my way but if it was on the tv I would watch it) and that was to root for your loses while I hoped for a miracle where the lakers would somehow steal the pacific (and maybe watch you guys get older and lakers could beat you). This was the beginning of the year obviously.

Shaq:"The kobster, he's an assassin" Answer for who should be mvp.

by ldeep on May 20, 2008 11:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why did I watch?

Mainly, because I could. A lot of the east coast games were over, or close to over, by the time I got around to getting to League Pass.

Also, I take a special joy in every Lakers’ loss.

The Lakers definitely won’t become the Heat. Don’t worry about that, but the Heat did get that title so it’s a fair price to pay.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on May 20, 2008 11:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed, JSun

I kind of agree with you. I think Gasol has holes in his game that have been exposed in the Jazz series, and I think will have problems against Duncan. Also, It seems liike Bynum’s knee is almost like an Antonio McDyess type of injury. He may never get back to the 17 and 12 mentioned by the Laker fan. That he says your conclusions may be wishful thinking is downrighht insulting.

In my book, LA is the weakest of the four remaining teams. they definitely have the worst of the four defenses.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on May 21, 2008 11:48 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm going to have to politely disagree

Also to say that I’m insulting. I never started the “amare knee is horrible and he’ll never be great because I said so” thread (I know thats not what your thread is but thats the part I responded to cause I’m not sure what the whole medical staff team is about but they can’t be that bad).

Lakers D is the spottiest of the four but when they are on, there capable of shutting people down completely. When the other three is the spurs, celtics, and pistons its easy to say that. Its not like its the suns, warriors, and nuggets in the Conference Finals. I’m not sure why your taking insult Hawk42, the post seemed like an attack (got sick of laker fans jumping to conclusion). Hes trying to find holes which I’m fine with but when he attacked one of my favorite players I’m gonna shoot back. He did beat your team from the inside in the season and was the reason we finally won the season series against you guys, so him down and no big middle guy would give you a better chance to beat us next year or so. (though I’m pretty sure he wants to Lakers to fail, not how the suns could beat them). By the way mcdyess had multiple serious injuries (this was a slight dislocation) and not as much potential as him to begin with.

For the games and what Gasol has to do, I’m gonna watch game 1 before I decide what is our biggest weaknesses, strengths, and who just plain disappears.

Shaq:"The kobster, he's an assassin" Answer for who should be mvp.

by ldeep on May 21, 2008 12:45 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

the post seemed like an attack (got sick of laker fans jumping to conclusion). Hes trying to find holes which I’m fine with but when he attacked one of my favorite players I’m gonna shoot back.

I don’t know if “attack” is the right word, but, yeah, I was trying to poke holes in the Lakers’ fans optimism. And, like I’ve said elsewhere, I’m retracting one of my earlier statements in which I said Kobe should fix his pinkie and wait for next year.

And it’s not wishful thinking. Wishful thinking would be a “hunch” that Kobe will get run over by a bus tomorrow. Really, if I was wishfully thinking about which Laker wouldn’t be able to make it next year, wouldn’t it be a wish about Kobe?

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on May 21, 2008 1:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

True enough

Well being biased to my team I’m gonna hope your hunch is way off.

Shaq:"The kobster, he's an assassin" Answer for who should be mvp.

by ldeep on May 21, 2008 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Blazers

will own them ( and everyone else).
No need to worry.

by Falcao on May 20, 2008 11:44 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

No great team goes without some struggles

The lakers will give you yours along with the hornets and the jazz. I can see the blazers being one of the best also but every team loses some before they win so I’m hoping Oden doesn’t pick up steam right away and gives the lakers a chance to enjoy being the favorites next year.

Shaq:"The kobster, he's an assassin" Answer for who should be mvp.

by ldeep on May 20, 2008 11:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think people overrate

the Jazz.
Tha Lakers, Spurs and Hornets ( if healthy) will be the favorites for the next few years. But I honestly think that the blazers will also be in the mix starting next year. It all depend on Oden and getting a PG.
The best for the suns would be to re-build, management made too many mistakes over the last few years. You guys had the chance to have a starting lineup of 5 allstars but blew it, starting with Colangelo.

by Falcao on May 21, 2008 5:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

starting with colangelo

you mean losing / firing b. colangelo right…I agree…rebuild now or suffer 30+ win seasons

by be-the-ball on May 21, 2008 6:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

no

I mean Colagelo’s decision of trading the 7th pick, not signing J. Johnson a 45 mil contract and signing Q. Rich with a bad back to an overpaid contract.

by Falcao on May 22, 2008 5:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't count your chickens

I like the look of the Blazers, but I would not make any assumptions until we see Oden put the MF behind him.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on May 21, 2008 11:50 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Que?

The Lakers have had the same trainer since 1984. They’ve won six championships in that span. So unless you have more than a couple of examples of how poor their medical staff is, I’m not sure this post makes any sense. Besides, Bynum has been checked by multiple physicians that all have the same opinion.

So c’mon, J. It’s bad enough that someone would argue that a team that hasn’t won a championship will become a dynasty. Don’t make things worse by making silly arguments against that stupid argument. It gives them a chance to make a good point, which they don’t deserve.

Sven to Benfica! Please, please, please!

by rosewood on May 21, 2008 11:09 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I only claimed it was a hunch

And I’m going on more than just Malone. Chris Mihm “twisted” an ankle and never returned. There are others, too. Being a blogger and not a journalistic, I haven’t taken the time to do thorough research. I’ve read some pretty long lists of injury problems over the last 10+ years. Maybe I’ll do a google search and provide some links.

They’ve won championships when healthy. But, they don’t seem to recover from injuries very well. And, I’m mainly citing Lakers fans for my hunch.

Getting back to the first paragraph of this response, my new theory is that bloggers talk about what’s been reported and reporters are actually the ones required to investigate facts. That’s why I called this a hunch, and that’s why I’ve come around to agreeing with the only ;) astute Lakers fan I’ve ever “e-met” about the injury problems.

It’s not the conversation so much about “dynasty” as it is to pin the hopes on Bynum who had one good half of a season and short history of injuries in his short career.

Part of the point is that I’m calling out myself for, at one point in time, telling the Lakers to sell the present short and and hope for the future. I’m also saying that looking to the prospect of next season has always been part of the problem with Bynum. I don’t think anything in the post is argumentative, I think it is a series of observations.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on May 21, 2008 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Laker's medical staff

There was a post that made the rounds a few months back that listed (a long list) and questionable outcomes from the Lakers training staff….If I had more time (or cared enough) I would find it.

But to JSun’s point – there’s more here then just Karl’s knee.

Heck – didn’t Gasol “twist an ankle” and miss about two weeks while Bell missed like two games and Dirk with his knee/ankle returned much faster as well.

Point – there’s more to this story then just Bynum and Malone.

Blogging Suns Basketball

by Phoenix Stan on May 21, 2008 12:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

No Need to Research, JSun

Because I’ve got your back:

http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/2008/03/the-lakers-have.html

Thats the post I think Phoenix Stan is referring to.

I agree with JSun…the high amount of optimism regarding some of these things is annoying. I understand Bynum was going something like 17 and 12 in January before going down, but wasn’t that about two weeks into the month? We’re talking a 6-8 game stretch here. Kendrick Perkins has had a 6 game stretch where he blocked an average of 6 shots a game. No one labeled him the next Mutumbo. Heck, some of Perkins’s stretches this season have been more impressive than Bynum’s stretch. Another thing to note is that when a player elevates his game to some degree, teams around the league don’t shift their defense to thward the elevation unless they are sure its permanent. For example, Dwight Howard was wrecking havoc for the first month of the season. Teams realized he’s improved and accordingly shifted their focus. His numbers and his effect on games took a hit afterwards. Same with Bynum: he began elevating his game, but his effect is being overstated because teams had not yet shifted their defenses to reduce his effects.

So, to summarize: The stretch was short and does not necessarily indicate the second coming of (insert great center here). In fact, such an outlook is an optimistic one. Secondly, Bynum’s prowess seems magnified by the fact that teams had not yet devised new defensive schemes to account for his improvement (maybe because it was not necessarily permanent to begin with).

Third, let’s not forget how googoo the national media always goes over the Lakers. This fawning also tends to make things seem much better than they are. When I read a national media story about Lakers, I usually discount about 30% of it as hype right off the bat. 40% for ESPN. 100% for the atrocious website known as 20 Second Timeout.

Also, I hate the Spurs. But it is insulting to the sport of basketball that a real journalistic would use the “d” word in reference to the Lakers when the status of the Spurs (with respect to the “d” word) is still questioned. I mean, come on!!

by RealTangiblesGuy on May 21, 2008 3:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Awesome

I had never read that article before. Right on target. Great find RTG. I’m glad you have our back man!

"Basketball doesn't build character. It reveals it"

by PanamaSun on May 21, 2008 3:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't understand

I don’t understand why this even comes up. For anyone to predict a dynasty for a team that hasn’t won a single championship is a facially stupid argument that needs no response.

My only point was that it’s is an equally bad point to argue about something I’m guessing none of us know anything about (sports medicine) on scant evidence. I mean, your argument presupposes that

1) One of the most valuable franchises in sports employs a bad-not mediocre or typical-but bad training staff.

2) All of the players also choose lousy personal physicians.

If someone can point out an actual medical mistake that was made, great. Good job, nice research. If you can find another physician questioning the Lakers’ training methods, also cool.

But taking Lakers fans’ word on it is just silly unless you think for some reason that fans of a team have better opinions about that team. But that’s not true. Suns fans insist Robert “I’m funding the 9th most expensive team in NBA” Sarver is cheap. If anything, team fans will be more biased.

So the point?

Predicting a Lakers dynasty is stupid in every way a fan prediction can be stupid. Trying to poke holes in that stupid prediction with evidence you don’t understand and admit is probably wrong is only encouraging more stupidity.

If you want to argue that Bynum won’t be a great player, sure have at it. He’s young. Hasn’t played much. Fair game. But let’s not speculate about his medical future. We barely know basketball. We don’t know medicine.

Sven to Benfica! Please, please, please!

by rosewood on May 21, 2008 4:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I never admitted I was wrong

I admitted it was a slightly-educated hunch. For one reason or another, Bynum is not going to get the Lakers over the proverbial top. They’re going to have to do it with the players they’ve got and it’s not going to be enough to be consistently at the #1 spot for the next 3 to 5 years.

But that’s not true. Suns fans insist Robert "I’m funding the 9th most expensive team in NBA" Sarver is cheap

Only a few—not the ones paying attention. If you pay attention you can pick things up. Look at, I don’t know, the results. I try to listen to the people that keep a closer eye on things than I do. E.g., when looking at the draft (I’ll start doing that soon), I’m going to expect something more in line with the “experts” than what I think would be a good fit. They’ve got a high error rate, too, but it’s lower than mine.

And, yes, there are level of good-bad-worse in NBA medical staffs. I’d certainly let any NBA team doctor operate on my knee, but he doesn’t have to get it anywhere near world-class-athlete level for it to be a successful surgery. I’d also probably let anyone that Bynum can afford to operate on me; but, again, I don’t demand the same level of competence that Bynum needs in order to return to his half-season of glory.

Maybe starting the article with “dynasty” was an imprecise (yet eye-catching way) to start an article. But that’s not the point. I’m not talking about a three-peat. I’m talking about the fact that it is going to be tough for the Lakers to get to the WCF again next year. If the Lakers keep pinning their hopes on the “project” tha is Bynum, it is a mistake.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on May 21, 2008 6:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Experts

If you had evidence from other team doctors, or even just doctors, saying the Lakers’ medical staff was poor, that’d be something. That’s people who know what they’re talking about talking about it. If all we have is Lakers fans pointing out that their players aren’t coming back from injury as soon as they’d like (in some cases) without any medical background, then you have nothing. I don’t care how much you pay attention. You don’t just “pick up” surgery.

That’s why there are thousands of basketball blogs but not so many surgery blogs. Anyone can talk about basketball. It’s a fucking child’s game. Surgeons go to school for like eleven years. So I’m willing to accept that a Lakers fan might know something about what rotations work well together or if a certain player is a good defender. I am not willing to accept that they’ve “picked something up” about the competence of their team surgeons. So the results you’re speaking of are meaningless since you don’t have any idea what the problem meant in the first place (unless you’re hiding your special knowledge about dislocated kneecaps).

But if you’re still confident about your good-bad-worse theory of NBA medical staffs (and fans ability to recognize the difference), then please lay it out. Rank them with commentary and examples. Otherwise, I’m going to stick to my zany idea that fans (who aren’t doctors) don’t know shit about medicine.

Sven to Benfica! Please, please, please!

by rosewood on May 21, 2008 8:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Research and results

I’ve had a few surgeries and have researched the doctors before going under the knife. Did I research their surgicial techniques? Did I cross examine them on their plans with medical journals? No and no.

What I did was talk to former patients and other doctors and athletic trainers that I respected. Note that two of the three categories were not even other doctors. Nor did I subscribed to any orthopeadic medical journals for six months. I talked to persons who knew what they were talking about.

We also have some knowledge of how different players fared when recovering from injuries, and we can put one and one together to figure out what teams they were on during that recovery.

If what you want is a detailed, double-blind survey with citations for every reference, you’re probably at the wrong website. I did not rely on that one blog, nor did I claim to. I’ve read some things and I did not cite them, and I openly stated that several times. It was a point of discussion and a series of observations. This was never intended to be a treatise, just some observations with a hopefully catchy title

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on May 21, 2008 9:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Trainers, patients, and doctors

Great. Just give that. Patient testimony. Opinions from trainers who are at least privy to the scene. Other doctors. Something tangible. Even recovery periods if you actually have comparisons. Lay out some other players with dislocated kneecaps or mcl sprains or high ankle sprains. How long did that take? How long do players take to recover on the Raptors? the Magic? In the Euroleague? In college? Even that would be something. Likely not enough, but it would be more interesting.

Analogies to 80s movies don’t offer anything. I mean, it may very well be true. I’m not sold on the Lakers’ medical staff necessarily being great. But I’m not going to consider someone’s hunch, pop culture references, and bald assertions as sufficient evidence that they’re bad.

As far as what website I should be at:

I realize that blogs are full of all kinds of half-assed arguments or “observations.” Great. I don’t see why that precludes me from pointing out that those observations are half-assed unless you think that it is better that blogs stay lazy and make half-assed arguments. But I don’t. I see blogs as an opportunity to learn something or teach something, and sometimes that something is just pointing out what is and what is not a good argument.

Sven to Benfica! Please, please, please!

by rosewood on May 21, 2008 10:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Look at Dirk, If you want

He took two weeks to come back from a high ankle sprain, but I assumed my audience was relatively well-versed in recent basketball happenings. I know full well that you know a lot about basketball. Therefore, claiming that you need additional support to understand my “position” (which, again, it is not and was never meant to be a testable hypothesis) is disingenuous.

and sometimes that something is just pointing out what is and what is not a good argument.

See, you’re putting up straw men. I never claimed to have the definitive answer on this; I claimed to be putting forth a series of observations.

If you believe blogs are there for education then you are, for the most part, going to be disappointed. You’ll some some stuff by some people who pay more attention to the subject than the average observers. You’ll also get to interact with some of the persons. You’ll probably also find some links to other who know more than the bloggers. From all of that, you may learn something. Anything you learn will be from the interaction, not the thesis paper.

Sometimes, we also make references to pop culture, like Darth Vader’s helmet or 80s movies or recent songs.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on May 22, 2008 10:06 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Observations?

Observations can be two things. First, there’s observations of facts, but that means things that have happened. But you say:

“He’s not coming back to camp in shape next season—even if his knee somehow magically heals.”

“I just don’t think he’s going to be the guy that we saw glimpses of in that half-season. Maybe the year after next. Maybe.”

“If he’s not that guy, then the Lakers will be a great team, but not a dynasty. History (i.e., history of the medical staff) says it’s not going to happen.”

“I’ve got this nagging hunch that Bynum’s not coming back to form any time in the near future—if at all.”

So unless you can observe the future, you’re doing more than just observing facts.

Observations can also be evaluations based on facts observed. Which is what you’re doing. And evaluations are arguments.

Now if you feel that claiming that they’re observations based on a “hunch” some how takes them out of the realm of argument, fine. But where I’m from anytime you make predictions, you’re making arguments. The fact that you didn’t offer much in the way of specifics to back them up doesn’t change that. It’s just makes them weaker arguments.

And arguments do not require having the “definitive answer.” All you need is a basis and a conclusion and that’s what you got.

Bad staff + brief glimpse + youth = Bynum overhyped = no Laker Dynasty.

Sven to Benfica! Please, please, please!

by rosewood on May 22, 2008 10:57 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

You got it backwards

I’ve got a hunch based on some observations.

The observations being that he’s played 30 good games in three years, he’s got some history of health issues, the medical staff has botched its own prognosis on him, the medical staff has a bad history of late and then I assumed others knew of other observations out there about other medical staffs. I then posted an admittedly flimsily-supported evaluation in which I stated I had a hunch he’d have a hard time returning. The “conclusion” (be that as it may) was that the Lakers would not be enjoying a Pistons-like 6-year tenure in the conference finals.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on May 22, 2008 7:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

A Separate Point

Many give credit for Bynum’s improvement to his improved sense of confidence. If this is the reason for his improvement, Lakers fans need to be pretty worried about him. This is a lottery pick who took something like 3 years to gain confidence in his skill and then suffered an injury. 3 years is a long time for a player who was a lottery pick and also had a legendary center as his coach to gain confidence. So, if confidence was the main ingredient in Bynum’s success, I don’t see him gaining the same level of confidence back until at least a year after his eventual return to health.

That being said, I would still be very happy if I was a Laker fan. Even in the absolute worst case from hell scenario (Bynum never returns), you guys are poised to be contenders for the next 3 years (I don’t think you can predict farther than that given how often trades/injuries/other random stuff happens). As a sports fan, what more can you ask for?

by RealTangiblesGuy on May 21, 2008 3:07 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Bynum

entered the league as the youngest player ever. Ever.

I don’t think three years to find his confidence and game is that strange.

Sven to Benfica! Please, please, please!

by rosewood on May 21, 2008 4:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

It’s not a long time when you consider his age, but I think the fear may be that he won’t be able to recover because he was too young (kind of like the reverse of Luke being too old to begin the training with Yoda).

I don’t know … I don’t put much into the confidence thing either way. If getting tutored by Kareem doesn’t instill confidence then nothing will.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on May 21, 2008 6:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kareem

He’s obviously a great mentor. I mean, look at everything he did for his past mentees, Jerome James and Michael Olowokandi.

His track record is flawless.

Sven to Benfica! Please, please, please!

by rosewood on May 21, 2008 8:59 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

apples and oranges

I’m talking about instilling confidence and you’re knocking on un-skilled players. Bynum is supposed to have huge upside. My comment was only to instillng confidence. You can’t make a silk purse with a sow’s ear. I’m not even saying Kareem is a good skills coach. I’m saying that if you’ve got that guy in your corner and you still aren’t confident, you’ll never be confident and/or you’re a sow’s ear.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on May 21, 2008 9:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

"The Youngest Player Ever"

By what, like six months??
Do you really think getting into the NBA when you’re just 18 and getting into the NBA at 18 and 6 months is that much different?? I would give the “youngest player ever” more stock if he were the youngest ever by like two years or something.

by RealTangiblesGuy on May 21, 2008 7:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

18.5 vs. 18

I doubt there is much of a difference. The point is I’m not sure how you can make a statement like 3 years is a long time for a lottery pick to gain confidence when lottery picks vary ridiculously in age. I would agree that if a 21 or 22 year old needed three years that might be suspicious. But if a 17 year old project takes three years to develop (both his game and his confidence), I don’t see how that’s a long time (at least not obviously).

And why do we assume that Kareem offers such great tutelage? Star players do not always make great coaches and his track record (Olowokandi and Jerome James) isn’t good.

Sven to Benfica! Please, please, please!

by rosewood on May 21, 2008 9:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

wow I missed half the argument

Man the future looks (key word there) great, I just want to enjoy the possibility. Nothing wrong with dreaming and hoping. Half of what makes sports fun is watching your team (or player) grow up in front of you.

Shaq:"The kobster, he's an assassin" Answer for who should be mvp.

by ldeep on May 21, 2008 10:17 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

for the suns' sake...

let’s hope they are not…

but after kobe singlehanded beat a team the suns couldn’t beat this year or the last in the playoffs….

i’m going to hold off judgment until they get beat….

by Tuna Helper on May 21, 2008 11:57 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Hard to argue

That having Bynum back won’t make the Laker’s better.

I have my doubts how “great” he will be. Between his health and what he’s shown I doubt he will be much better then say a Bogut or Haywood. I don’t see any chance of him being Dwight Howard.

He’s athletic enough to finish on Kobe’s lobs (which Kobe creates not Bynum) and he’s big enough to bang down low w/ Duncan, Oden and Al Jeff. But that’s all he really needs to be on this Laker’s team. That’s scary enough.

Blogging Suns Basketball

by Phoenix Stan on May 22, 2008 9:36 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Agree

with everything you say. It’s just a little annoying that some members of the media talk about Bynum as if he is the next all-time great.

by RealTangiblesGuy on May 22, 2008 3:09 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hes gotta be better then Bogut

Dwight Howard is just a monster though, until hes 27 theres all the hope in the world for him.

Shaq:"The kobster, he's an assassin" Answer for who should be mvp.

by ldeep on May 22, 2008 3:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

But I haven’t seen it…yet. He’s one of those guys that really benefited from playing w/ a great player. Think of all the points Marion got b/c he played with Nash. I think 75% of Tyson Chandler’s points are created by Paul. Bynum scored a LOT of points because Kobe drew defenders and then lobbed him the ball.

That’s not a problem per se. He doesn’t have to be a great individual player to have a big impact on that team.

Blogging Suns Basketball

by Phoenix Stan on May 22, 2008 4:50 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Greg Ostertag, anyone?

Who was the guy before him? Mark Eaton? You don’t need a great center if you’ve got a great power forward and a great point guard.

No, wait … wrong team analysis.

Bill Cartwright? Luke Longley? Yeah, that’s the comparison.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on May 22, 2008 7:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh Man

Ostertag was a slug of a center if their ever was one. I lived in Salt Lake 97-99 and watched that team a lot. Ostertag was about as useless of a basketball player that 300lbs and 7ft could possibly make.

He had hands worse then Kwame Brown and was slower then dirt.

The ONLY reason he had a basketball career at all was because of Shaq. His entire purpose in life was to stand in front of Shaq and try not to get dunked on.

Blogging Suns Basketball

by Phoenix Stan on May 22, 2008 11:59 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs