Are the Suns even relevant any more?
by beatcal on May 30, 2008 11:37 PM MDT
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PrintI know we've touched on this one in various ways in various threads, but I wanted to consider it explicitly, in one place, all at once.
As we all know, the Suns were dispatched relatively easily by the Spurs in the first round. Then the Spurs were dispatched relatively easily by the Lakers in the conference finals.
Now, I know that some would dispute the "relatively easily" characterization in both cases. Many of the games in both series were very competitive. But a 4-1 series loss is a 4-1 series loss. To me, it looked like there was a decent-sized gap between the Lakers and the Spurs, and another decent-sized gap between the Spurs and the Suns. The Suns' first-round out feels about right to me, given the competition in the Western Conference.
So, what about next year? No one in their right mind will pick the Suns to win the title. But I don't think you can even call them contenders any more. Neither does Johnny Ludden. He thinks the Spurs might have another run or two left in them, but he looks to LA, Utah, Portland, and New Orleans as the future of the conference.
For the first time in years, Phoenix isn't part of the conversation.
I don't think they should be, either. If you ask me, the window is shut, and the Suns are no longer relevant when we start talking about prospective NBA champions.
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The trade...
sets the Suns faster than anyone expected.
To some degree, I agree
The Suns have largely been written out of the title contention picture by most national analysts. I think part of the reason may be that it’s difficult for them to mention more than like 6 teams without their article getting too broad.
I think next year’s contenders: in the East: Boston, Detroit ~Cleveland, ~Orlando (the ~ means a 50/50 chance in my mind depending on offseason moves and player improvement)
in the West: Lakers, Spurs, N.O., Utah, Phoenix, Dallas (in that order)
So we may have fallen from second place in the west to 5th, but shrewd offseason moves, a good coach, and improvement from Amare/Barbosa/Diaw can move us back up into the NBA elite. We’re not as far as some would have us believe. But we’re also no loner “right there.” However, I do think the argument that the Suns are “right there” is easier to make than the argument that they’re completely out.
Also, about Portland: They are one of the teams positioning themselves for having a long title runs and they have promising talent. But in my mind, promising talent is not as good as developed talent, which the other western teams have. So I wouldn’t pencil in Portland for title contention, Western contention, or even “playoff noise” yet.
by RealTangiblesGuy on May 31, 2008 10:30 AM MDT reply actions
Suns need Riley-like coach
Well, as far as trades are concerned, Suns are not in good position to make moves. I opt for Suns to sign a coach that can defense as well as utilize a Big Center and a quick point guard. Of the last 30 years or so, I haven’t seen anyone as good as Riley in these departments. Scott, being a disciple of Riley himself, utilizes such defensive tactics to excellent success against Dunkin. What fell short in the NO-SA series was their firepower. That Amare can provide in Suns.
A good coach is what the Suns need.
by majesticblue on May 31, 2008 10:50 AM MDT up reply actions
And to Answer your question
Yes, the Suns are relevant.
by RealTangiblesGuy on May 31, 2008 10:31 AM MDT reply actions
Look at the roster!
What is the starting line-up for the Suns at this point?
PG – Nash
SG – Bell
SF – Diaw
PF – Amare
C – Shaq
Barbosa, Hill, Skinner, GG, and DJ come off the bench.
This is still a damn-good roster in my opinion. Yes, we need a good coach to make it work. But it is not like we have just crappy players. The bigger concern is Shaq and his minutes. However, he was never supposed to play a lot of minutes (~20). So when he started playing a lot for coach Mike, I was worried. Look at what happened!!!
Anyway, I still believe the Suns are relevant.
The problem there
is you don’t have any depth at the two positions where we are oldest…Center and PG
This roster will have to change to address that.
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Seth Pollack on May 31, 2008 2:33 PM MDT up reply actions
In a way,
we are more like the end-days of Stockton-to-Malone of Jazz…
If Kerr can bring in some good back-up pieces, I am still confident.
The problem here...
is that Kerr is a crappy GM. He is no Joe Dumars, Jerry West, Geoff Petrie, Kevin Pritchard, or RC Buford. No, he is a GM that is in the ranks of Kevin McHale, John Paxson, Isiah Thomas, Michael Jordan, Scott Layden and the most underrated bad GM ever, Chris Wallace.
Let this be a word of advice to teams looking for a GM, if a guy ever played for the Bulls during the Jordan era, do not hire him, including Jordan himself.
by Aluminum Foyle on Jun 1, 2008 1:20 PM MDT up reply actions
LOL
I don’t think anything would make me happier than Rodman as GM of an NBA team. He would trade for Artest immediatley and sign him to a max extension.
by RealTangiblesGuy on Jun 2, 2008 6:24 PM MDT up reply actions
This sadly reminds me more of 1980. Suns have a lot of good pieces here, but the LA window is going to stay open for at least five years. They’ll win multiple titles and unfortunately the entire Suns roster will probably be overturned before we even have another run to even the conference finals.
Gar Heard was three years early.
I SADLY AGREE
with 99% of above comments, we need 1-2 changes, especially in PG and Center positions. I really wanted the Shaq trade to work out, I really like having him on this team, but missing 32 of 64 freethrows in a playoff series where we lost by just a few points really says it all. The only thing I see helping shaq is if he loses 30 more pounds, more athleticism would’ve really made a difference on all those missed short shots. And based on the DIAW CYCLE, he’s going to play poorly again for another 200 moons before he shows up again.
Heart the difference, not talent
I was thinking about this over the weekend. I asked myself, “Why do the Lakers work and the Suns do not? Obviously the Suns do not have Kobe, although if Amare Stoudemire performed up to his capabilities, he would be every bit the superstar that Kobe is. We have a very good point guard, which the Lakers do not. LA has Odom and Gasol.
The big difference between the Lakers and Suns is that beyond Kobe and Gasol, the Lakers are middling in talent, but play hard. Past Amare and Steve, the Suns are middling in talent, but you don’t know what you are going to get. I am specifically comparing Odom, Farmar, and Vujajic to Boris, LB, and Raja. That should be at least a push, and talent-wise, I think an advantage for the Suns. But it is not, because of that trio’s inconsistency.
When you look at it like that, the Suns are not so much in need of an infusion of talent as an infusion of heart. What coach can give us that? I still am foolish enough to believe that this roster could still be playing with the right coach. If that is not true, then we do need a total makeover, because that would indicate our players will never have the heart to win.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
i'd say heart and chemistry
I love the suns, but I loved them much more 2 yrs ago, a team that wants to put amare at the center (is very understandable talent wise, and age wise), but chemistry wise, its a mistake. One that will keep the suns from going anywhere. I’d heard from multiple sources about amare’s work ethic while recovering being in question. And although he’s had a great comeback, I still think he’s simply not a leader.
Amare's developed his game
He’s got a jump-shot now that he didn’t used to have, and word is that he can make three-pointers, too. (He’s obviously not the go-to guy for those, however.) If he made the same commitment to improving his defense and rebounding…he’d be one of the best big men ever.
Footnote: I have to say, though, I was alarmed at how often he fumbled Nash’s passes in the San Antonio series. He doesn’t know by now that the ball could be coming at any moment?
I was puzzled by that also. Up to that point, that was one of the wonders of Amare’s game, catching passes. I daresay he fumbled more passes in that series than in his whole career before that. He has turned many a Nash turnover into 3 point plays over the last 4 years. I just think he was out of synch. His scoring was up, but I don’t think he ever completely became comfortable playing next to Shaq.
Also, I’ll criticize Amare with everyone else, but the fact remains, he was a dunk machine with no shot or game to speak of when he came to the Suns. Now he is almost automatic from mid range, not to mention the free throw line. In fact, one could argue that Shaq and Amare’s offense was similar as rookies. Can you imagine how O’Neal’s career would have ended up if he had developed a shot and learned to shoot free throws? He would have challenged Jabbar’s scoring record of 38,000. Instead he has 27,000 and winding down.
In addition, STAT is the poster boy for microfracture recovery. All this with no consistent coaching his whole life, no father, and with everyone around him getting into trouble with the law.
I’d say he has done pretty well.
I think Paul Silas can help him make the next jump.
Terry Poorter – HC
Paul Silas – lead assistant and big man coach
Jeff Hornacek – shooting coach
Dell Harris – defense
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
"1, 2, 3...defense"
That’s how the Spurs break their huddles. They showed it over and over again during the playoffs. If you had a coach try to pull that in a Suns huddle, Shaq and Amare would roll their eyes, and Leandro would say, “Excuse me…what is this ‘defense’ you speak of?”
That, I think, is our main problem.
If you have a coach like Pop, who’s got four championships, he can just point to the banners and say: “You want one of those? Then you play defense.” I’m not sure what other coach brings that kind of credibility…maybe Riley.
As for Shaq’s free throws, again, you’d need a coach with serious credibility and very large cajones to say, “Look, big fella, the missed free throws are killing us. The days are long gone when you could make up for that those by scoring 30 points on dunks. So, I’m bringing in Rick Barry to coach you. You’re going to work with him until you can hit 70 percent of your free throws…underhand, overhand, backwards, I don’t care. Seventy percent. We’re not gonna settle for anything less.” If Shaq said, “Screw that,” then the coach would say, “Okay, then any time a game is close enough to come down to free throws, you’re sitting.”
Who’s got the credibility for that? Again, maybe Riley. Maybe nobody.
It's coaching, AGAIN?
YES! A defensive-mind coach that can utilize an excellent point guard’s creativity is what the Suns need. Among the active ones, I trust those from the Riley’s squad, i.e., Byron Scott. However, Scott is not going to give up his job coaching one of the best point guards ever play in this game and, even if Scott agrees to come, the Big Fella will not listen. Admit it, Shaq got a bigger ego than most coaches want to deal with.
Shaq's Ego
may be the only thing in NBA history bigger than Shaq himself.
by RealTangiblesGuy on Jun 2, 2008 6:28 PM MDT up reply actions
beatcal...
on shaq…I’ve heard so much about his ff, the most interesting is…during practice he does hit 70%, it’s during games where he falls apart. And that makes me think of 1 of 2 things,
1. He’s so out of shape from running that he can’t shoot as good as in practice until he loses another 40 lbs and is in much better shape (unlikely to happen)
2. He mentally freezes during games, he’s not a clutch player…not like some at least.
My vote is for number 1…I think if he got down to 275, he’d still be the huge force around the hoop, I simply think he’s not worked hard enough. The great players don’t let themselves go like this. Nash, although a different type of player and not a comparison to make, but you can compare how Nash stays in great shape in the off season while Shaq doesn’t, and Diaw doesn’t (at least 2 seasons ago)...etc etc.
But if you look at his form...
...it’s just SO ugly. It’s bound to produce inconsistent results. The way he shoots it, I think it would be impossible to get into a rhythm or develop any muscle memory. It looks different every time.
If Tiger woods can re-make his swing after winning a bunch of majors, Shaq can figure out a better way to shoot free throws: shoot them underhand, shoot them as a jump shot, shoot them as a two-handed set shot (with hands placed symmetrically on either side of the ball), whatever. There’s got to be a way to improve, and a coach who can help him do it. (You’d like to think that he’d hire one on his own, just out of professional pride.)
Shawn Marion is no different
Shawn Marion’s shot is one of the ugliest things I’ve ever seen on the basketball court, but it works and is consistent because Shawn is relaxed when he shoots.
Shaq’s free throw problem is mental. Same as Wilt. He shots them too hard and therefore with too low an arc, which is a sign of stress. he’s thinking too much, and the solution to his problem is relaxation.
If I were the free-throw shooting coach, I’d tell Shaq a bunch of really funny dirty jokes, and get him to repeat them in his mind while shooting. Anything to get his mind off the actual act of shooting.
In fact if I were Steve Nash, I’d volunteer to help Shaq.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Jun 3, 2008 6:11 PM MDT up reply actions
Big hands?
I’ve heard people say the big hands mess Shaq up. But by any account I have read, Connie Hawkins had huge mitts, and he shot 80% from the line.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
Nash's dedication
I agree on Nash working hard to stay in shape. I am about his height (6’2”), but I am 193, and I work hard to stay there. But Steve plays at 180, I think, and that would take some dedication to maintain, I assure you.
Look at my post on Amare and Shaq. If Shaq got to 275 and developed a sky hook or fadeway like Jabbar and Chamberlain, he’d have 40,000 points. wilt could have carried 300, but played at 275.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
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