Robin Lopez: Wild. Big. Hair.

by Phoenix Stan on Jun 26, 2008 9:12 PM MDT Comment 65 comments

In the live blog tonight a lot of Suns fans were disappointed with this pick but I don't get that at all. I think I will simply paraphrase what I heard Steve Kerr say about Lopez:

The Suns have a lot of skilled players but its been a long time since we've had a big tough guy that will get after it and knock people down.

Exactly!

The Suns have a desperate need for an athletic big center that can defend, rebound, hustle and play both inside and out. My only regret is that they couldn't find a guy like this last year and have kept Marion and avoided the Worst. Trade. Ever.

Here's some tidbits from Porter and Lopez on the radio tonight:

Porter says Lopez will play and be a rotation guy playing along side Amare or Boris
Not sure about his ability to play with Shaq. That makes sense
Lopez was the top guy on the Suns draft board ahead of Rush, Randolph, Batum and Courtney Lee in that order
The Suns like Robin better then Brock and think he will end up being the better of the two and would have picked him ahead of Brock
They love his motor and intensity but also he has good hands and a high basketball IQ
Lopez understands his role - defensive energy and that's what the Suns need
His numbers weren't great at Stanford but he was often defending the other teams' best big and played unselfishly with his brother giving up stats to box out or guard guys on the perimeter. Again - exactly what the Suns need next to Amare

I am very happy with this pick. The Suns have a solid record in the draft and didn't have the luxury to draft a project skill guy like Batum or Speights.

For the 15th pick you aren't going to get an all-star so why not get the kind of glue guy that any playoff team needs. I think Suns fans are going to love this kid in no time.

[Note by ZonaFlash, 06/27/08 11:26 AM EDT ]

I was going to post this separately, but since Stan has already covered the Suns saying something similar, I add it here.

A few extra reasons why Robin > Brook might become true.

[1] Twins: Roughly the same talent and skill level between the two starting today. Brook probably has the edge for showing himself statistically dominant, but talent-wise, Robin has not been short-changed.

[2] Temperament. Although I prefer dominant, aggressive players, Robin has shown the will to sacrifice for the team. Over the long run, this kind of team mentality with his own brand of aggression may be more valuable (it's also cheaper on the salary cap). Robin's team play is all the more important when one's roster involves some pretty big egos already. It's not clear to me that Brook and Amare would have got along.

[3] Training. Robin is going to get trained by two great big men in Cartwright and Shaq. Robin is poised to receive the big man secrets from Shaq that Amare could not handle. The Nets have WHO coaching their big men?

Poll

What do you think of the Lopez pick?

Best possible choice for the Suns

128 votes

Not sure yet - ask me next February

108 votes

Horrible move - should have taken someone else

29 votes

265 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 65 comments

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Comments

Nice writeup

Just disagree with one part:

“For the 15th pick you aren’t going to get an all-star”

Um… Maybe not right away, but with enough patience, you just might end up with a 2-time MVP!

Totally agree with this:
“My only regret is that they couldn’t find a guy like this last year and have kept Marion and avoided the Worst. Trade. Ever.”

by TexSUN on Jun 26, 2008 9:20 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah - I guess that guy

worked out at the #15 pick…but the numbers don’t lie either

Blogging Suns Basketball

by Phoenix Stan on Jun 26, 2008 9:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think

Kerr just couldn’t get over having missed out on Noah last year. Big Hair. Defense. IQ.

The crush is still there.

Sven to Benfica! Please, please, please!

by rosewood on Jun 26, 2008 9:30 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I was just thinking that

He fills the exact same role as Noah would and you have to think that he was hurt by playing next to his brother and not being able to be the main man in the middle like Noah was.

Now – when he gets to town we will have to get him the hook up. I know some people…

Blogging Suns Basketball

by Phoenix Stan on Jun 26, 2008 9:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hope

Phoenix can keep up with Palo Alto.

Sven to Benfica! Please, please, please!

by rosewood on Jun 26, 2008 9:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

In the ganja?

You’ve got to be kidding

Blogging Suns Basketball

by Phoenix Stan on Jun 26, 2008 9:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ha ha

Sven to Benfica! Please, please, please!

by rosewood on Jun 26, 2008 10:04 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

People?

Dirty people?

Can’t want to see that hair cruising through Dirty Scottsdale.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on Jun 26, 2008 11:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

lets not get too excited, though..

My feeling is that Sideshow Rob is a good, if unspectacular pick. If we keep Brian Skinner, not only do we now have two of the starting five for the all-NBA cranial hair team, but decent depth at the 4 and 5 spots. He should be able to spot Shaq and probably Amare for periods of time, and for defensive lock downs.

As I mentioned in the live chat, we have Shaq and Bill Cartwright to help the kid achieve his potential, which I think gives him a shot to be a decent, long-term player.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Jun 26, 2008 9:36 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah,

I think it’s hard to say this is a bad pick. Lopez will be fine and by picking for production at least we know the Suns are still committed to winning now. But he does a voice like a East German female swimmer. That’s a minus.

Sven to Benfica! Please, please, please!

by rosewood on Jun 26, 2008 9:43 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

On the other hand...

...looks like they got “Spurred” on that second round guy they wanted.

by TexSUN on Jun 26, 2008 9:47 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Oops, sorry Phx Stan

Guess you already used that “Spurred” line in another thread (I’m a little late to the party).

Regardless, Paul Coro is reporting that the Suns have acquired Goran Dragic in a trade. Doesn’t mention who/what the Suns ponied up in the trade.

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PaulCoro/26635

Who the heck is Hairston guy?

by TexSUN on Jun 26, 2008 9:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow!

That’s fantastic! I have no idea idea if the kid is any good but I have to say that I trust the Suns on stuff like this…

And imagine if he does work out like LB and we would have stolen another one from the the Spurs! That just about makes up for….nah not really..

Still – all in all a great night if they got both the guys they wanted at Center and PG. It will be interesting to see what its going to take to get Dragic here and what they had to give up to get him.

Blogging Suns Basketball

by Phoenix Stan on Jun 26, 2008 9:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Coro is now saying...

...that the trade will be official once the second round is through. Maybe it’s a pick-for-pick trade?

by TexSUN on Jun 26, 2008 10:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

Trade with the Spurs. The Kerr connection pays off for once.

I’m buying a Dragic jersey.

Also Portland trades: Dorsey, Arthur for Batum. Pritchard must really like him.

Sven to Benfica! Please, please, please!

by rosewood on Jun 26, 2008 10:06 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

'night

Sigh Well, I hate going to bed without knowing who (if anybody) won’t be on the team next year as the other half of this trade, but I’m beat. ‘Night everyone.

by TexSUN on Jun 26, 2008 10:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for the update!

Caught it on my way out. Here for anyone else who missed it: http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2008/6/26/559821/suns-nab-their-man

by TexSUN on Jun 26, 2008 10:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

On any unrelated note....

After all the hoopla last summer, the Bucks are belatedly giving Yi his wish NOT to play for their team:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/news/story?id=3462210

I wonder if he likes NJ any better?

by TexSUN on Jun 26, 2008 10:07 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Dragic

Hey anyone know about this guy. I’ve heard that he is one of the top pg’s in the draft but some contrat issues got him out of the first round. Anyone know about him?

"Troops in desperate straights know no fear. Where there is no escape, they stand firm; When they have entered deep, they persist; When they see no hope, they fight." Sun Tzu The Art of War

by Turambar on Jun 26, 2008 10:11 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Great defender

decent passer, can’t shoot. Decent athleticism. Had a big Euro pre-draft camp.

I’m with it.

Sven to Benfica! Please, please, please!

by rosewood on Jun 26, 2008 10:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

He probably does have more upside than Brook...

...and he speaks as if he suffered a slightly less severe form of blunt force trauma to the frontal lobe.

by beatcal on Jun 26, 2008 11:21 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

He could be good...

My eyes lit up when I saw this quote from Bickley’s blog:

Quote:
Nevertheless, when the Lakers come to town, I’d suggest knocking down the guy wearing No. 24. Nobody will be booing the pick then.

How many times have we pleaded for the Suns to stop the ball when the other team just waltzes on in to the bucket?

I can see the Suns playing Amare, Boris, and Lopez for stretches. Maybe Amare will want to learn to play defense when he sees everyone else playing it.

PG DJ
SG Bell
SF Diaw
PF Amare
C Lopez

A good lineup for some tough defense?

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Jun 27, 2008 9:02 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Learning from Shaq?

I’m not sure Shaq has all that much to teach beyond “swagger.” I was thinking about this when the Suns made the pick. I think Bill Cartwright will be an excellent tutor, but Shaq might be the least fundamentally sound Hall-of-Famer ever. Eh-vah!

If Shaq were a lesser athletic freak, I’m not sure he would be the player we know him as. Does he know how to play the game? Absolutely. But in terms of “big man wisdom,” I don’t think he has as much to offer as fans would like to think.

by Mike Lisboa on Jun 27, 2008 10:11 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

Shaq the Mentor

Yeah, I don’t know about that either. What could his advice be?

“All right, first Robin, you need to be the most freakish athlete ever to play basketball. Got that? Well, tell me when you do. None of my moves work without that. Bitch.”

Purchasing my Dragic jersey

by rosewood on Jun 27, 2008 10:23 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Even with Shaq's freakiosity it takes more..

than talent to make it in this league. Stanley Roberts could have been Shaq 1.1, but he failed miserably. Want more? I’ve got two words for you: Kwame Brown.

The NBA is littered with the corpses of promising big men, who were able to exercise every muscle except the grey one that matters the most.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Jun 27, 2008 11:36 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs

I beg to differ.

While promising athletes have come and gone, no one in the history of the NBA has possessed the previously unimaginable combination of height, girth, and agility that Shaquille O’Neal has. I’m not saying the guy has doesn’t know how to play ball. I’m just saying that he plays by a completely different set of rules than every big man before or since. Rules that aren’t necessarily impartable to a less physically gifted rookie.

by Mike Lisboa on Jun 27, 2008 11:44 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Some of it is Shaq PR

but come on, Shaq has (some) skill. Alternatively, if you like, isn’t it good training to go up against shaq on a regular basis?

More importantly, what about Cartwright? Can’t he be a decent mentor? Certainly better than any coahc on the Nets!

Wondering what the skip-2-my-loo to do next with my empty summer

by ZonaFlash on Jun 27, 2008 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

"I think Bill Cartwright will be an excellent tutor"

I already said that. And yes, you could ask for worse sparring partners than Shaq. I’m just saying that Shaq hasn’t had to develop the repertoire of moves and skills that your run of the mill above average big man has.

by Mike Lisboa on Jun 27, 2008 12:04 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just responding to the general discussion, including rosewood's comment, I suppose I could have posted it there.

Wondering what the skip-2-my-loo to do next with my empty summer

by ZonaFlash on Jun 27, 2008 12:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Shaq mentor

I agree with your position on Shaq, Mike. To be a mentor, Shaq would have to say,

‘Now Robin, I’m a good example of how to waste talent. Do everything opposite to what I did. Work hard to improve yourself. Push yourself away from the table from time to time. Don’t open your mouth and say stupid things. Pay attention to your coach. Block out on the boards. Develop an outside shot. Learn to shoot free throws’

I am of the opinion that Shaq had the talent to have broken Jabbar’s scoring record by now. He has left about 10.000 points on the table by bad free throw shooting, missed layups, and the lack of a solid 10-12 foot fadeaway or sky hook.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Jun 27, 2008 11:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

2 words: Wilt Chamberlain

And they actually changed the rules for Wilt (widened the lane), to make it harder for him.

Wilt was even more physically gifted than Shaq (he was also a track star), especially in comparison to other players in the league, and he worked at improving his physicality (lifting weights, etc) at a time when players just didn’t do that kind of off-court training, and ended up at 300lbs with the Lakers.

Want to know how physical Wilt was? He once broke Johnny Kerr’s (no relation) big toe with a slam dunk.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Jun 27, 2008 12:01 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

3 Words: Not Even Close

If you want to argue that Wilt has more of difference between his peers than Shaq did, fine. The NBA was small back then and only a handful of players were 7 ft.

But to argue that Wilt was a better athlete/specimen than Shaq is nuts.

Wilt when entering the pros (Globetrotters) at 22: 7’1” 255 lbs and a 24” standing vert (as measured at Kansas) and a 7’2” wingspan.

Shaq when entering the league at 20: 7’1” (no shoes) 303lbs and 31” standing vertical (a 36” max vert) and 7’7” wingspan.

To put that in better perspective, high-flying pseudo-dunk champ Dwight Howard is 6’9” without shoes and has a 35.5” max vert.

I’m not necessarily saying Shaq is better than Wilt, but there has never been a freak like Shaq. Ever. He’s simply incomparable.

Purchasing my Dragic jersey

by rosewood on Jun 27, 2008 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wilt certainly was a better athlete than Shaq.

It’s not all about standing vertical leap and wingspan. It’s also about stamina (Wilt averaged 48.2 mins/game one season. Could you ever imagine Shaq doing that ), strength, speed and the rest. Wilt was a track and field star as a kid, a good middle distance runner, high jumper and shot putter.

I don’t particularly disagree with you that Shaq is the more physically gifted, but I’d strongly suggest that the difference is closer than you think, and with modern training, nutrition and sports psychology, and playing against more physical opponents, Wilt would have been better.

One thing you can say, without question is that Wilt played his position statistically better than all his contemporaries, with NBA records in points and rebounds (they didn’t keep blocked shots stats then), and center position records. And as much as I like him, you can’t make the same claim about Shaq.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Jun 27, 2008 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

When Wilt was

a rookie there were like three other players taller than 6’9.” He played in a league of little, little people. There were 6’6” centers who weighed 200 pounds. Shaq would have broken their noses by tea-bagging them. Even your beloved Bill Russell was tiny: 6’9” 215 pounds. You know who else is that size? Kevin Durant. Try putting Kevin Durant on Shaq and see how that works out.

So, yes, I think Shaq could have played 48 mpg if he had a league of SG/SFs guarding him. He always played high 30s mpg when he was younger in a much, much more physically demanding league.

As far as statistics and player ability, I wasn’t even touching that as comparing stats/skills between eras is more or less useless. But if you stood Shaq next to Wilt: Shaq would be longer, larger, and have a higher vertical. We don’t know for sure who was faster or stronger though I would guess Shaq (especially in the strength department. He can bench press like 450 pounds).

So it is possible Wilt was faster. He debatably had better stamina. Shaq was much larger, much longer, a much better leaper, and almost certainly much stronger.

Yet Wilt is a better athlete because he ran track in high school? Sure.

Purchasing my Dragic jersey

by rosewood on Jun 27, 2008 1:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually

to be fair the 450 pound bench press is Shaq’s story, so lord knows if that’s true.

And Chamberlain also says he benchs 550. And had a vertical of 49 inches, which is facially laughable considering the Orlando draft camp record is 43.5.

But what else should we expect from guys who say they’re the Most Dominant Ever or have slept with 20K women.

To put this whole argument back in context though, I said Shaq was the most freakish athlete ever to play. You said Chamberlain was equal/more so. That’s one other player from another era. Doesn’t really dilute my point much if there’s only one comparison.

Purchasing my Dragic jersey

by rosewood on Jun 27, 2008 1:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was actually disagreeing with Mike Lisboa..

The thing about Wilt, is that we never saw what the guy was truly capable of doing, because he didn’t want to be known as an unskilled player. Sure, he dislocated Gus Johnson’s shoulder while blocking a shot, and broke Johnny Kerr’s big toe with a dunk, and broke several of his opponent’s fingers while dunking, but what we remember about Wilt is the finger roll and the godawful free-throw shooting.

The advantages modern players have wrt training, nutrition, sports medicine and travel should not go unacknowledged. There are a handful of players, like Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Cousy, Baylor and West for whom I wish it was possible to travel in a time machine. Wilt would have embraced the modern regime, for sure, and Oscar, with plyometrics training would have been a truly scary proposition imho. As for Bill Russell? He wouldn’t play center in this league, but he’d be a rich mans Dennis Rodman, imho.

And the coaching is better, overall. I shudder to think what would have happened if Phil Jackson were Wilt’s coach. I know Wilt was capable of hanging with NBA players on the practice court well into his 40’s.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Jun 27, 2008 2:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Era, schmera. That was never the point.

Maybe we didn’t see what Wilt was fully capable of. I certainly didn’t. My earliest memory of Wilt Chamberlain in action is the 1984 action film “Conan the Destoyer,” much as I’m sure my kid’s first memory of Shaq in action will be “Kazaam 2: Kobe, How’s My Ass Taste?” (Sorry, can’t get enough of that.)

My original point still stands: Shaq has succeeded in the NBA more because of his freakish ability than sound fundamentals. I don’t know how much he has to offer in the way of tutelage to young Mr. Lopez.

by Mike Lisboa on Jun 27, 2008 4:04 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wilt memories

I remember wilt scoring 66 points against Jim Fox. Another time, he had a jump ball at the Lakers end, and tipped the ball in the basket.

He did well against Alcindor (Jabbar), about the only center in the league that contained him.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Jun 27, 2008 11:52 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

30 ppg?

Shaq never averaged 30 ppg

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Jun 27, 2008 11:48 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wrote

30 mpg not ppg.

Purchasing my Dragic jersey

by rosewood on Jun 28, 2008 2:35 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wilt vs Shaq

Wilt had more good 7 footers to play against than there are in the game today. (Thurmond, Bellamy, not to mention Russell, who played like he was 7 foot). Shaq in his heyday had Ewing, Robinson, and Olajuwon. I think Big Nate could hold his own against those three.

Also, Wilt would easily score 40 points and get 20 rebounds against Shaq, both being in their primes.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Jun 27, 2008 11:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

No

and no.

None of the players you mentioned were even seven feet tall. Bill Russell was 6’9” 215 lbs, which, as I already mentioned, is the same size as Kevin Durant. Chamberlain played in an era when people were tiny. When he entered the league there were three other players taller than 6’9” inches. You could be a legit-not an exception-but a legit center at 6’7.” Just think about that. That’s junior college. And you wonder why a 7’1” 255 lbs center scored 50 ppg. He was posting up SFs. I mean, his hundred point night came against four guys:

Willie Naulis (F-C): 6’6” 225 lbs
Johnny Green (F-C): 6’5” 210 lbs
Darrall Imhoff©: 6’10” 220 lbs
Cleveland Buckner©: 6’9” 210 lbs.

Look at those featherweight midgets! Do you honestly think Shaq wouldn’t throw up redonkulous numbers against them if he felt the need to take 63 shots and run up the score in a 20 point victory? I mean, that rotation is the equivalent of running Raja Bell, Brandon Roy, Anthony Randolph, and Kevin Durant at Shaq. Yup, that’ll work.

When Shaq entered the league he faced multiple 6’10”+ players every night who’s only defense was to foul him. I think you can definitely argue that Wilt was better than Shaq (though there is no possible resolution to that argument), but do not try to persuade me that Wilt faced tougher competition at the center position. And it’s just ludicrous speculation to think that Wilt would have dominated the most dominant big man of the past twenty years unless you’re just hellbent on arguing that the basketball players of yore were so much better.

Purchasing my Dragic jersey

by rosewood on Jun 28, 2008 3:06 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Those 1961 Knicks were a godawful team, even for that era.

The issue I have is that people tend to look at Wilt in a one-dimensional way. To me, the 100 point game is nothing more than a statistical oddity. That Wilt has that record, is only partially meaningful.

Statistically, when compared to his contemporaries, there has never been a player as dominant as Wilt. Wilt owned both the scoring and rebounding titles for many years (his only true competition for rebounds being Bill Russell). If stats for blocked shots had been kept in those days, we might have been looking at a player who averaged a triple double for his career (possibly two players if you include Russell).

The truth about Shaq is that over his career he underachieved on the defensive end. He only had one season with more than 1100 boards, and two others with other 1000. Kevin Garnett has had just as many such seasons, Dwight Howard this last season had a better rebounding season (1161) than Shaq ever had. Rodman, who was a much shorter player managed 1530 in 91-92 (He also managed an astounding 26.5% of all rebounds in the 95-96 season, which is why he is the greatest rebounder ever). Shaq wasn’t even as good a shot blocker as Shawn Bradley.

Moreover, I also think you have to take into account playing conditions during the earlier era. No trainers, hard travel, bad shoes, etc, not to mention that while defense wasn’t as good in the 60’s, it was a harder style of play (wrt hitting & the like), and the refs were certainly not as indulgent of the “superstars”. Shaq would certainly not have been allowed to bump his way into the paint the way he was with the Lakers.

Also, I think it would have been much harder for Shaq, imho, not because of his raw talent and physical ability, but because his tendency for injury in this era would have been greatly magnified back then. I just don’t think he could have stayed healthy enough to play extended stretches at his best level, especially in a pair of Chuck Taylors.

OTOH, Wilt who was a known fitness freak, would certainly have made use of all modern sport medicine practices to stay in shape, and optimize/maximize his performance. He would have been a 7’1 Karl Malone, wrt conditioning. That, imho, is the fundamental difference between Shaq and Wilt.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Jun 28, 2008 2:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

There's no comparison

There’s no way Wilt could have hung with Shaq on the microphone. Let’s not forget that important aspect of the debate fellas.

Blogging Suns Basketball

by Phoenix Stan on Jun 28, 2008 2:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know about that..

Funny…

Wilt was quite the raconteur, and might have been the first sports figure to refer to himself in the 3rd person.
However, like Shaq, he was also reputed to be a nice person.

I will take Wilt’s performance in Conan over Shaq’s in Kazaam.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Jun 28, 2008 2:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, but did you see "Steel"?

by Mike Lisboa on Jun 29, 2008 1:06 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

It wasn't just the Knicks

We’re talking about a whole league of overmatched chumps.

Let’s look at some 4s and 5s from 1961-1962

Boston Celtics

Bill Russell (Center) – 6’ 9” 215
Tom Heinsohn (F/C) – 6’ 7” 218
Satch Sanders (PF) – 6’ 6” 210

St. Louis Hawks

Bob Petit (Center) – 6’ 9” 205
Clyde Lovellette (F/C) – 6’ 9” 234
Larry Foust (F/C) – 6’ 9” 215
Barney Cable (PF) – 6’ 7” 175

Los Angeles Lakers

Rudy LaRusso (F/C) – 6’ 7” 220
Jim Krebs (F/C) – 6’ 8” 230
Ray Felix (Center) – 6’11” 220
Howie Joliff (F/C) – 6’ 7” 218

Cincinnati Royals

Wayne Embry (C/F) – 6’ 8” 240
Bob Boozer (PF) – 6’ 8” 215
Hub Reeb (C/F) – 6’ 9” 215
Bevo Nordmann (Center) – 6’ 10” 225

Detroit Pistons

Bob Ferry (F/C) – 6’ 8” 230
Ray Scott (F/C) – 6’ 9” 215
Walter Dukes (Center) – 7’ 220

Syracuse Nationals

Red Kerr (F/C) 6’ 9” 230
Dolph Schayes (F/C) 6’7” 195
Swede Halbrook (Center) 7’ 3” 235

Chicago Packers

Walt Bellamy – 6’ 11” 225
Charlie Tyra – 6’ 8” 230
Dave Piontek – 6’ 6” 230

And, of course,

Wilt Chamberlain – 7’ 1” 275

If you want to say that Wilt was a better conditioned athlete than Shaq, great. Shaq has never taken good care of himself.

If you want to say that Wilt was better than Shaq then maybe, that’s an argument worth having and insoluble.

If you want to say that Wilt was a more gifted athlete than Shaq then very maybe, as, if anything, the two were likely peers. I would say Shaq (much more so) but sure it is close enough to argue.

But if you want to say that Wilt faced any kind of competition remotely similar to what Shaq has faced, you’re crazy. Wilt played in an era when scrawny SFs played Center. As a result, he threw up inflated numbers against Junior College competition. Also, let’s not forget he was shooting around 35 times a game in those years (39.5 in his big 61-62 year). Shaq had a big year when he was taking 20 shots a game. Also let’s not forget that Shaq always shot a much higher percentage than Wilt against players who actually should be playing the 5 position.

Wilt’s stats really don’t offer any kind of frame of reference because of his inadequate competition. He was modern-sized player playing in an era of pygmies. If you put Shaq in that era 1) yes, he might have had injury problems (though since he doesn’t use facilities now, I don’t see what advantage he would lose) 2) when he played, he would have put retarded numbers.

Last: I see no great embarrassment in being an equally/slightly less competent shot blocker than Shawn Bradley who, even though he was a lousy overall player, had the best blocks per minute ratio of any player in the 1990s (3.9 p 36 minutes).

Purchasing my Dragic jersey

by rosewood on Jun 28, 2008 6:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually

One thing that stands out to me about Shaq is that he was a far more efficient scorer than Wilt.

If you look at his best scoring season (1999-2000) and then give him another 18 FGA and 7 FTA that Wilt would take in 61-62, Shaq would have put 54 ppg. And this isn’t a one year thing. Shaq is a much more efficient offensive player than Wilt against better competition.

Purchasing my Dragic jersey

by rosewood on Jun 28, 2008 7:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not saying that Wilt's competition in 1961 was as good as what Shaq faced.

I am saying that by 1971, it was close with Kareem, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy, Darrell Imhoff, Mel Counts and others, and while his scoring had gone down in that championship season (~15pts/game), his field goal percentage was 65%, and he rebounded at ~19 boards/game.

Moreover, because there were fewer teams, he played against those good players far more often (Lakers played the Knicks 5 times during the regular season in 71-72, vs 2 times in 99-00) than Shaq ever did.

Furthermore, I’m really wondering who these great centers Shaq had to face off against in 99-00 were.
Hakeem, certainly.. Sabonis, yes. Robinson, possibly. Ewing.. hardly. Divac ? Adonal Foyle, Shawn Bradley, Greg Ostertag??

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Jun 28, 2008 9:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

only when you average across a career.

Shaq is a remarkably consistent scorer, between 56% and 61% each year for his entire career (this year with Phoenix is his best), for a career average of 58%

Early Wilt was a low percentage scorer, but from 1966 onwards became a truly efficient scorer, with a 68% FG% in 66-67, 65% in 71-72 and an amazing 73% in 72-73 (his lowest scoring year), with a career average of 54%.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Jun 28, 2008 9:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

I take one thing back. 99-00 Hakeem was a shadow of his former self.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Jun 28, 2008 9:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reply

First, your point that Wilt played good teams more often cuts both ways and is more or less without bite because he also got to play the crap teams more often.

Second, look deeper at rebounding numbers. Teams back then scored 110 ppg as an average (97 in 1999-2000). On average, they missed about 700-800 more shots per year. That’s an extraordinary amount of extra rebounds. If you look at their rebounding percentages in 71-72 and 99-00, you’ll see that Wilt’s was 20.1 and Shaq’s 18.3. When you add to the increased offensive burden expected of Shaq and smaller size of Wilt’s opponents, I think you’ll see that you’re talking about a marginal difference.

As far as great centers: 1) 1971 was Wilt’s second to last year in the league and after his gaudiest numbers 2) In 1971, they were still teams starting 6’ 8” centers. 3) There were still far fewer genuinely big men. 4) Mel Counts and Darrall Imhoff were playing less than 10 mpg in 71-72. 5) I’m not talking about “great” centers and never said anything about “great” centers. I’m talking about the consistent amount of big bodies Shaq would face on a nightly basis. There were simply more big people to compete with him. He didn’t get many Dave Cowens 6’ 8” 230 pound nights. 6) If you want solid centers/power forwards (and I assume you mean solid since you counted Mel Counts and Imhoff), don’t forget Theo Ratliff, Dikembe Mutumbo, Dale Davis, Tim Duncan, Alonzo Mourning, Marcus Camby, Rik Smits, Derrick Coleman, Elden Campbell, Kevin Willis, Shawn Kemp, Elton Brand, Kevin Garnett and many more less important but still large, large players.

Last, you point about Wilt’s shooting percentages more or less speaks directly to mine. He couldn’t score ridiculous amounts of points, even against tiny people, and be efficient. Not until did he lower his shot output and his numbers could he be as efficient as Shaq. And Shaq could still score more against more quality opponents.

They’re both great players, and as far as who is better it’s a good argument. But the league was easier for big men back then. There just weren’t as many athletic peers.

Purchasing my Dragic jersey

by rosewood on Jun 28, 2008 11:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

ok.. I'll buy that to a point.

The ‘73 Dave Cowans, though, would have given Shaq fits, in the same way he did to Kareem and Walton. Dave was fast and ornery in a way you just don’t see today. The refereeing in ‘73 would also have played to Cowans advantage, allowing him to really whack Shaq. Shaq never really faced a hard, thuggy Loscutoff type player. Didn’t even face a prime-time Laimbeer. It would be interesting to see how he would have coped.

The real point I was trying to make was that if we could take a 16 or 18 year old Shaq back to the 60’s or late 50’s, using some mythical time machine, and let him grow and develop into an NBA player, under the conditions available at the time, it’s not clear to me how close to Wilt he would have been, for the reasons I outlined before. You’re certain he would have been just as good if not better.. Me, I’m not so sure.

Similarly, if we were able to take a 16 or 18 year old Wilt, bring him forward in time, and cultivate him as a player, I think he’d still be able to dominate modern competition, mainly because of advances in training, nutrition, shoes, etc… He certainly wouldn’t have entered the league at 245 lbs, but much closer to a lean 280 or 300 lbs, imho.

And, of course, it would all depend on who his coach was. Under the eye of a Popovich or a Jackson, I think Wilt would be a monster and highly efficient player from the get-go. With Don Nelson as his coach, who knows. That’s the other thing about the modern game. The coaching is way better today, in general, than it was in the 60’s, Auerbach and Holzman notwithstanding. Gaudy stats aside, imho the young Wilt suffered greatly from incompetent coaching, and that was the primary cause of his inefficient early play. Put a young Wilt with a Nash, Kidd or Stockton, and then let’s see.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Jun 29, 2008 12:18 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is he ake Voskuil?

That would be Jake Voskuil without the “J.”

Actually, I liked Voskuil. He was clearly not a franchise guy, but he was a good role player who did what he was asked to do. If R. Lopez shapes up that well, I wouldn’t be disappointed.

by beatcal on Jun 27, 2008 12:03 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

No-one is saying that Sideshow Rob is the second coming of..

Bill Russell, Robert Parish or even Mark Eaton

But he has a chance to be a decent player, especially if he and Amare can find a way to mesh on the court.

IMHO, he could be someone in the mold of a Shane Battier, combining intelligence and tenacity, at a just below all-star level. What’s important is how he complements Amare, and how well they will work together as a unit.

Dragic is more intriguing to me, as he has two important skill sets: distribution and defense at the point. He desperately needs to improve his shot, though, if he is to be any good in the NBA. And that’s why I was concerned with his ft%. Shooting is supposed to be a substantially developed skill with guards, and as Kobe and Iverson have shown, low shooting percentage guards kill your team.

If Steve Nash has shown the league anything, it’s that the double threat of passing and shooting is a truly dangerous combination, as it keeps the opposing defense honest.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Jun 27, 2008 12:18 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

2 things

Memory fades quickly. Watching The Big Cactus lumber around the paint and get burned on p-n-rs has a tendency to block out any other mental pictures, but if you had watched much of Shaq during his Laker years (and watch him I did, living here in SoCal), you would have been treated to ridiculous levels of power, grace, and skill in just about every aspect of the game other than the jump shot or free throw, and was absolutely dominant in ways that had never been seen before, or perhaps had only been seen, as mentioned, during Wilt’s career. If you remember his “Black Tornado” spin-dunk, you’ll know what I mean. Seriously.

Second, in terms of Sideshow Rob, what are we looking at here? How does he compare to Stephen Hunter? Is he an upgrade over Brian Skinner? A bigger Kurt Thomas minus the baseline J?

by SoCalSun on Jun 27, 2008 3:07 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs

When I look at Shaq..

especially in his Laker days, I see a guy who was an offensive force of nature, and a player who couldn’t shoot a free throw, under-rebounded for his size and earlier speed, and who was lazy defensively, except when he played Tim Duncan.

I see a guy who was 50 lbs too heavy, who didn’t give a rat’s ass about his conditioning, got his necessary surgery late in the off-season, and consequently didn’t play close to a full season after winning his first MVP. As much as I think Kobe is a hyper-talented but self-indulgent headcase, his beef with Shaq was valid. Nash would have had the exact same complaint with Shaq, imho.

I also see a guy who profoundly understands how to play the center position, and who knows how to use the referees to his advantage. I also see a guy who understands the mistakes he made earlier in his career, and wants a shot at redemption.

As for Sideshow Rob, it’s hard to tell what his ceiling is. Maybe a tougher, meaner Marcus Camby ?

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Jun 27, 2008 4:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Anderson Varejao is his ceiling. So says Draft Exrpess.

Wondering what the skip-2-my-loo to do next with my empty summer

by ZonaFlash on Jun 29, 2008 2:04 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs

Like they know...

Draft Express had all kinds of weird player comparisons. Look at their Joe Alexander or Jerryd Bayless profiles. If you look at their Robin Lopez profile, they compare his upside to a rookie player, Joakim Noah. Retarded.

In this case, I think they looked at the hair, and just went Sideshow Rob meet Sideshow Anderson… It’s an obvious call, to be sure, but our Stanford boy has a nice mean streak, which I think will be the difference.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Jun 29, 2008 2:37 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs