Already Dumping Dragic? A Tragic Mistake
by Eutychus on Nov 3, 2009 8:37 PM MST
91 comments
Inspired by recently intensified comments and murmurs concerning Goran Dragic's performance so far as a member of the Phoenix Suns - hear out my two cents as to why I believe jumping on the 'dump Dragic' train would be a tragic mistake.
To start off - I will concede that the front-office hype surrounding Goran Dragic was too much last year. I blame a small part of the sour taste in the mouths of a seemingly growing group of Suns supporters on that. But I feel the major source of the Dragic negativity lies within those very same Suns fans who were swayed by an over-excited and almost giddy new GM in Steve Kerr, who saw a diamond in the rough in Goran. You see - a majority of Suns have forgotten how spoiled they really are when it comes to the PGs who have graced our team's roster. For practically the entire history of the franchise we have had all-star caliber, if not hall-of-fame caliber PGs.
From Westphal to Hornacek - to Kevin Johnson to Jason Kidd - even Starbury to Nash. How long has it been since we haven't had an all-star PG commandeering our team? In fact... how long has it been since we have had to endure the development of a PG... does it go back to Hornacek? (Nash did a lot of his development in Dallas)
The truth is - as Charley Rosen succinctly put it in an article, "the point position is the most complex, and is therefore the most difficult for young players to master". Development of point guards requires A LOT of on the court minutes - feeling the game - learning the opponent - mastering and perfecting technique. In the most recent history I can only think of Christ Paul in 05' to be a starting rookie PG who drastically affected his team positively and put up big numbers. He is a freak of nature. So besides CP3 - PGs are slow developing players. Be Patient with young Goran the Dragon - give him time, it's not an 'add-water' recipe, even with Steve Nash as the supervisor.
In fact - coming into your rookie year as back-up PG is even tougher than coming in as a starter because of the lack of minutes given to the back up PG. Though I think being a back-up of a future hall-of-famer as a new player in league can only accelerate future progress (see Steve Nash). It will just take a little more time. Be patient with Dragic. Before I prove this with some sweet charts I spent a grip of time making - consider this:
We know what kind of a roller-coaster year it was for our Phoenix Suns - I won't bore you - but it is interesting to see the major improvements Goran Dragic made after the coaching switch was made from Terry Porter to Alvin Gentry and a more up-tempo style was unleashed once again. Take a look at some of his important statistics before and after the coaching change.
The difference is pretty drastic. While improving practically all of his stats, the most notable improvement was in his PPG and his 3P% where they basically were doubled. I think it's safe to say we can expect more of that kind of improvement and production as Goran gets more playing time and as he gets more comfortable in the league in a more stable environment this year compared to that of his rookie year. All signs so far (with the exception of his poor pre-season shooting numbers) this offseason point in this direction. Again - be patient.
Now to the good stuff. I've taken the rookie year 'per game' stats of the current top 6 point guards in the league and placed them next to Dragic's season average numbers... (keep in mind the minutes played - and the vast difference in Goran's numbers from the beginning of the year under T.P. to the end of the year with A.G.)
The biggest discrepancy accross the board is in the minutes played - out of the 7 point guards examined - 5 were basically starters their rookie year and logged major minutes learning, acclimating and feeling out the PG position - yet compared to the 2 other players who weren't starters right away (Nash and Davis), Goran's numbers aren't as bad the naysayers and Dragic haters would like you to believe.
So in order to really see how well our young Slovenian stand-out did his rookie year compared to these top point guards we need to adjust the numbers according to a constant variable. Luckily for me - most stat sites already do that by providing the average stats a player puts up 'per 36 minutes played'. (What would I do without www.basketball-reference.com?) So take a look at this next graphic and see where Goran stands. It doesn't look bad AT ALL. In fact - according to these numbers he is performing extremely well and in some cases has out-performed some of these superstar's rookie numbers. (Note that CP3 was already averaging 36 minutes a game - so his numbers stay the same).
To finish up - I am not trying to convince anyone that Goran Dragic is the next Steve Nash or the next Deron Williams. But what I am suggesting is that we take the blinders off and lend some patience to this young talented player. We have seen flashes of brilliance and exhibitions of dominance and style from Dragic already - the consistency and confidence will come with time.
Be patient, he'll make mistakes and make you pull some hair, but give the hating a rest... - and enjoy the fact that we are able to witness first hand the development of PG - that's something that hasn't happened here in Phoenix for a long time.
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nice job
I’ve been meaning to put something like this together for Dragic. Compiling these stats is way better than having 5 basketball-reference.com tabs open.
I think you’re right on about Suns fans being spoiled with good point guards. Dragic has a lot to live up to in that respect, and odds are he never will. That doesn’t mean he’s a failure, just that he’s not a Hall of Famer. I would say that recently the league in general has been spoiled with good point guards. Rose, Rondo, Westbrook, Paul, and Deron Williams to name a few. In general though, it takes a few years to develop good point guards.
by Suns' Sensei on Oct 20, 2009 10:26 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
You're right
with those other guys – they slipped my mind! Rose is going to be an insane talent as he continues to develop – he will shortly be up there with LeBron, Kobe, CP3, and Dwade in the MVP hunt. Not to disparage their talents at all – but if you check their stats – both Rose and Westbrook averaged well over 30 MPG – Rose with 37+!
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Oct 20, 2009 10:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t know Hornacek was a PG? Maybe he started out like that, but he played along side Humphries and KJ as I recall. He certainly played alongside Stockton. Not that any of that matters.
I don’t blame fans for the hype. The hype is generated by the front office. And the front office has to generate hype in order to explain why they were trying to get him on the club and out of his current Euro League contract. Obviously when we all read about that, many of us thought, “This guy’s gotta be good.” But Kerr did pull out all the stops to talk Dragic up huge. So when the kid comes out and can’t play, fans get angry.
Dragic looks 13, he’s sweet and soft spoken. What he needs is to get into CP3’s (or Parker, etc. all) grill, play D and frustrate them and maybe even get into a tussle (not that I condone fighting). As Stan says, you need the “stones” to play PG in this league. Nash has always been undersized and underhyped (when he entered the league), he’s had to earn every ounce of praise and respect that people give him.
I think there’s a huge intimidation factor that Dragic must deal with when he gets on the floor. He garners very little respect from competitors because he looks so nice and has been inconsistent to say the least. What do you think the scouting report says on him? I wonder if there is a scouting report on him.
My point is that I agree with those who say giving up on the kid is wrong. I agree with those who say playing under Terry Porter set him back. At the same time, he has a lot of work to do in order to be considered a legit PG in this league, regardless of his coach. Some of that he cannot learn, it has to be inherent in the personality, see Nash, Steve.
by Wil Cantrell on Oct 23, 2009 2:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't argue with any of that,
but I will clarify that I don’t blame fans for the hype either. The hype goes to the front office no doubt, they’re the ones who put him on such a high pedestal. I submit that a majority of the negative reaction to Goran’s poor performance is spawned from a deeper source within a lot of fans. I mentioned that we have been spoiled with great floor generals as one of those deeper sources.
I think you could also make a case for a couple of other sources as well. In fact, I’m probably being too narrow-minded in thinking that it comes from a single source altogether – more than likely the negativity is brewed in a pool of sour history and current sociology.
So for example – like you mention, the hype – and Dragic’s ‘not-to-par’ performance is what has made some fans angry… but the buildup to that outlet of anger is more than likely from not only our spoiled history of great PGs, but the general negative image a lot of those same angry fans have of our teams’ ownership and management. It’s an ugly marriage between the front office and the disgruntled fans – - because no matter what these current suits do that might be positive for the future of this team – it’s automatically deemed by many to be the ‘wrong’ thing to do and errors of the past are always placed in the forefront (ask any of the most avid Dragic-haters if management has made a good move since the JJ drama… or since the selling of our draft picks was the norm – you’ll be hard-pressed to find any positive remarks).
Couple all of that junk with our society’s general evolution (or some like myself would say ‘declination’) of social interaction and personal development - we are a ‘me me me’ nation/generation that is only concerned with items of instant gratification. There is no patience. It is not a virtue. We are so accustomed to, because of the rapid advances in technology, having whatever we want at our fingertips – that when we don’t satisfy that need for instant gratification – we reject, we anger and we immediately seek a replacement that will offer such. It’s a societal trend… It happens with marriages, schools, jobs, products,etc., why wouldn’t it translate to our expectations of sports organizations? I think it does. I think that’s part of what we’re witnessing with the reactions and crucifixions of Kerr, Lopez, Dragic, and maybe even Sarver (He’s been able to win a couple of WNBA championships…and nobody else with deep pockets has offered to step in and turn the Suns into a Lakers/Cavs/Boston/Spurs team with a salary ceiling that doesn’t exist. Plus, his specialty is real estate!!!?!!!!!! Fans don’t expect that when a real-estate crisis blows our economy to smithereens, the real-estate guy might need to tighten up his wallet?).
Whatever – I’m off my soap box for now. Those are a just a few of the things that have been pacing my random mind.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Oct 23, 2009 3:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Horny played point before KJ and after Hiumphries.
Also, he was a decent sub when KJ was out, which is more that Richardson or Bell ever did.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
by Hawk42 on Oct 23, 2009 10:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't get to see Hornacek play much with the Suns
Who do you think was the better backup point: Hornacek or Joe Johnson? Would it make a difference if Hornacek backed up Nash and JJ backed up KJ?
by Suns' Sensei on Oct 24, 2009 12:22 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Johnson
JJ would be a better back up PG for limited times. Horney only had a decent handle and no quickness to speak of. Horney was a lights out shooter. JJ is a better all-around baller
by eagleheart on Oct 24, 2009 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
JJ
Could not run the point. His decision making with the ball was worse than Barbosa. If JJ could play point, he would have done it in the 6 game losing streak midseason that basically earned Nash the MVP award. Also, If JJ could play the point, Sarver would have never low balled him.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
by Hawk42 on Oct 25, 2009 5:44 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
jj
Well, the question was who would be a better backup PG, Hornacek or JJ. Watching the games when JJ was with the Suns, I didn’t really notice the turnover prone thing you mention that he did and is still doing. I did notice a couple games at the end of the game it was JJ with the winning shot, not Nash, not Stoudemire, not the Matrix. I distinctly recall the announcer calling him (JJ) our “mini-mcgrady”. I think that does sum up his game, he’s a classic big two in the vein of McGrady, Kobe. JJ did play point guard after his trade to the Hawks, the lack of talent on the team, the big minutes he had to play just to keep the team somewhat competitive, well it didn’t really work out. He is fine as a backup PG though against other teams backup PGs.
by eagleheart on Oct 25, 2009 6:26 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember that 6 game losing streak like it was yesterday
and JJ wasn’t even used as a point guard,
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
by Hawk42 on Oct 25, 2009 8:15 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
nicely presented case
personally I think his ceiling is going to be alot higher than most ppl are expecting and tonight’s game ( sacramento) certainly backs up that thought…
really the only question is if he can get it in gear soon enough to give nash his rest during his remaining time here…if so, things are looking up for the suns..
by Fritzy on Oct 21, 2009 12:05 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Well said
Very nice post.
As frustrated as I have been with Dragic, it is true that his numbers are understandable. I think a lot of the problem was the hype surrounding him. Kerr made a big deal about how the suns were convinced he was the “second best point guard in the draft!”.
With tempered expectations, I think Dragic will play just fine for PHX this year.
by willthehawk on Oct 21, 2009 4:14 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Dragic is funny
he’s really night and day from when he’s on vs when he’s not. You can see it all over his face.
He obviously doesn’t have the swag that some young guys just have. Like a Johnny Flynn or Brandon Jennings.
And that’s worth a lot but Goran does have game in there somewhere
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Phoenix Stan on Oct 21, 2009 4:20 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
inconsistency in a young player?? Outrageous!
Wondering what to drink to during suns games...
by ZonaFlash on Oct 21, 2009 4:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
moody european player?? Outrageous!
Wondering what to drink to during suns games...
by ZonaFlash on Oct 21, 2009 4:28 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pay 2nd rounders first round money? Brilliant!!!
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
by Hawk42 on Oct 21, 2009 4:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you could put up some PG failures and they might even have better stats than those shown
The point is that Dragic has the raw tools he needs. The question is whether or not he’ll put in the hours of hard work (like Nash did) and whether he’ll get enough of a chance.
Stan tells me Dragic is a hard worker, so he probably has a chance to be good.
Wondering what to drink to during suns games...
by ZonaFlash on Oct 21, 2009 4:25 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
With this kid
I don’t think it’s about hard work. With Clark, yes.
With Dragic my big question is if he’s got the mental toughness, killer instinct and….stones. It’s almost like he’s too nice.
He certainly can develop that. Nash has evolved in that way over the years from being the nice little Canadian kid to being a tough little bastard who will rip your heart out on the court (and then joke about it after).
How do you evaluate that? How do you quantify it? I think this is where the stat geeks bail from the conversation…
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Phoenix Stan on Oct 21, 2009 5:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is what i find most worrisome:
Dragic’s lack of confidence, x-factor, “it” , what have you. This is how we can tell, pretty much without a doubt that Dragic will never be a Hall of Famer. Those guys came into the league with that winning air about them. In fact, most All-Star caliber players come into the league with that kind of attitude I would argue. It’s something that’s hard to cultivate at this stage. If you don’t have “it” after beating up on weaker competition in college, high school or Europe, I doubt you’re going to develop it playing against NBA-level competition. And it’s not that Dragic’s desire isn’t showing through or that he’s neutral, so to speak, in the “it” area. It’s that he seems to be playing scared. He has negative “it” if you will.
That said, without ‘it" Dragic could be anywhere from scrub to above-average starter. I tend to think he’ll be closer to the latter, and that’s where stats play a little bit of a larger role.
by Suns' Sensei on Oct 21, 2009 6:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Say more
about the Clark thing. You cant just say something like that and leave it. Does Clark have work-ethic issues? Have you seen these? Tell me something.
Go read a book!
by N8lol on Oct 21, 2009 6:38 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
Well actually the book on him out of college was desire and the suns (can’t remember who) did talk about needing to keep him engaged and working hard b/c of that.
He’s a guy that doesn’t lack confidence but has a lot to learn about the NBA game. His upside will almost certainly be determined in large part by how hard he works off the court and in the off season.
For the first time in his life, he’s going to have to try hard to be good enough. The league is littered w/ guys that couldn’t handle that
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Phoenix Stan on Oct 21, 2009 11:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you just call me a stat geek?
Like you said – he needs swag (aka confidence) – and swag is measured just like any other intangible factor, by its fruits. Like if someone says they’re full of patience… you’ll know if they’re full of patience or full of something else by the way they act in situations where patience is needed.
So his swag is measured by how he performs on the court. I think that’s how you quantify it. Just like you can measure Dudley’s hustle by watching his fruits on the courts. Though he may not light up a stat sheet – you see the hustle on every play, the tugs at the jersey, the taps on the arm, the diving on the court, the always being in the right place at the right time, etc.
Evaluating Goran’s confidence the grade is a C right now. It’s hot then its cold – you average those out and you get, well, average. That’s a C. I think he’ll improve his grade at least to a B this semester.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Oct 21, 2009 9:56 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
I did not call you a stat geek….I just have a running thing w/ stat geeks in general who think you can understand this game by reading a spreadsheet
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Phoenix Stan on Oct 21, 2009 11:06 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
What do you think of physicists I wonder?
by egp the great on Oct 21, 2009 11:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no issue
with any geeks in general :)
and I don’t have issue w/ stat geeks unless they ONLY look at numbers….the game is far more complex than any PER or WARP formula
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Phoenix Stan on Oct 22, 2009 9:06 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Stan
I have never been much for the whole “per 36min” thing because just because I score 5 points in 5 min doesnt mean I will stay at that pace….in fact in most cases pace tends to decline over longer periods of time…I appreciate the effort but these charts did little to sway my opinion…The only real difference I saw in that chart was that his shooting percentages increased dramatically….which is a very good thing….but you didnt include the actual made/attempted part that would really tell if it was better shooting or just less missing on fewer shots…
My “Goran hating” has been based on need as well as performance….right now the Suns do not need a 5 year project for the BACKUP pg position…they need a guy that can come in and give quality minutes while Nash is resting….Goran does not do that….I dont mind being patient with him….But if it is going to be 3 years after your drafted before your ready then go back to europe or the d-league for those years…like everyone else does….if your not ready your not ready….
I’m sorry but missing out on Mike Conley because of ATL’s sudden rise and seeing Rondo become the player he has become after we drafted and sold hime is what has left a sour taste in my mouth….Not the Kerr hype….The Kerr hype and lack of performance from Dragic has only intensified it….Like many people have said, he looks scared when he is on the court….If a decent PRE-SEASON outing against the KINGS is enough to give you this much optimism then good luck with all the heartbreak you will no doubt feel…
We need someone who can come in and play solid and consistent backup minutes now…period….Barbosa is a better at this point and we all know thats not a great option at the PG position….Dont get mr wrong, I love Barbosa but he is not a PG….At this point, Goran Dragic is not a NBA caliber player….There has been a lot of “Dragic hating” for a reason….
by NSU Stud on Oct 22, 2009 11:02 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
If a decent PRE-SEASON outing against the KINGS is enough to give you this much optimism then good luck with all the heartbreak you will no doubt feel…
I posted this before they played that game. So unless I can see the future, my optimism must have come from something else.
But thanks for giving a clear sample of the ‘hating’ I’m referring to. I understand this falls on a lot of deaf ears. No biggie. It sounds like your beef is with management and Dragic is your outlet. Whatever floats your boat
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Oct 23, 2009 12:49 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t see into the future. Just to clear that up.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Oct 23, 2009 12:51 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dragic
Just look at the last game to see what the suns would look like without Dragic….PLUS he was a rookie last year, and with the coaching issues and overall mentality in the locker room I’d say he did a damn good job.. Dragic haters just please give him a couple of years before the hate begins….
by Will Smith on Oct 23, 2009 2:46 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
thats the problem
The Suns dont have a couple of years….Nash is done in the next 3 years….Then what?…MAYBE Dragic will have done something?….I dont think so….Those pitiful charts are simply not enough…Like I said before, if he needs a couple of years, then send him to the D-League or back to Europe like everyone else that isn’t ready…Bring him back when he IS ready….I find it quite rediculous this guy has this much support just for being a nice guy….There are so many young prospects at the PG position in the NBA who have performed much better than Dragic…Yet this is the guy we are willing to pin our future on?…I don’t think it’s the “haters” that need to rethink the hype…
by NSU Stud on Oct 23, 2009 6:43 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Like I said before, if he needs a couple of years, then send him to the D-League or back to Europe like everyone else that isn’t ready…
Do you think tearing up the D League will make Dragic a better NBA player?
He has to sink or swim here. Sorry if he doesn’t perform, but at at least we will know. Sending him away to D-League does at least two negative things: first off, it forces us to pick up a another PG or force Barbosa into a situation where he won’t thrive at backup point. Secondly it does zero for Dragic’s development. Playing against lower competition will not make him better. He needs to play against the best if he is to succeed in the NBA. Like it or not, the team made a fairly significant investment in this guy. Just because he hasn’t turned out to be CP3 or Derrick Rose doesn’t mean he won’t figure it out and be a serviceable NBA point guard.
You cannot draft guys and expect them to be stars right off the bat. The Rose’s and CP3’s are very special cases. There is no evidence that Dragic, at his age, will not turn out to be a serviceable point guard.
As for as your time frame,
The Suns don’t have a couple of years…, you are simply in denial. This team hasn’t been blown up for financial reasons and bad luck. If Amare was healthy and didn’t suffer his eye injury last year, there is very good chance he would be a Warrior now and we’d be looking at a totally different squad. Nash was extended because he is still good at what he does, he wanted to be here, and he will one day be in the Hall of Fame (wearing a Suns jersey). If you are implying that a window is closing, well then you are living in denial. The window is closed. The best we can hope for this year is for some good entertainment, a playoff appearance, and the team making a little money so they can pick up an FA or two in the offseason to get a bit younger.
by Wil Cantrell on Oct 23, 2009 7:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
precisely, Will. if this were the Suns team of 3 years ago, I’d be all for sending Dragic to the D-League and signing a veteran FA to back-up Nash. but we have a minuscule chance of winning the championship this year, so why not just see what pieces we have going forward.
by Suns' Sensei on Oct 23, 2009 9:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just watched Lawson destroy Farmar & Shannon Brown
Not giving up on any of our recent picks but damn that guy can ball…
by hcblankscreen on Oct 24, 2009 2:56 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Your graph makes a good point..but watching him play o you see the same potiential as any of the players you named..We took him because he was the “second best point guard prospect” in his class..I cant name another pg besides Rose that yr. If he would have came out in this yrs draft class he wouldnt have even been a top 5 point guard..and thats with John Wall not declaring. Furthermore the pick that we traded to S.A to get Dragic turned out to be DaJuan Blair this yr..another mess up by the front office..We were better off staying put and making a move this yr
by marques m on Oct 24, 2009 8:53 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
bla bla the DeJuan Blair
I was big on drafting DeJuan Blair at 14 instead of Clark…. If you watched any of the Pitt games last year – that kid is a beast and we went into the draft knowing we needed rebounding and defense… but the thing about that 2nd round pick (that SA eventually turned into D Blair) is that NOBODY thought DeJuan Blair was going to go in the second round like he did. Kerr even admitted this last week on KTAR – that when they saw Blair drop that far in the draft they tried like crazy to trade up and snatch him up – but they couldn’t.
So sure, in hindsight you can look back and say that it was, ‘another mess up by the front office’ – but the predraft medical advice on Blair was that his knees were a no go, and that’s why he fell so low. In my opinion it’s a steal and a win for SA… not so much a loss or a screw up on PHX. It does make you want to poke your eyes out though.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Oct 24, 2009 12:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blair's a nice gamble for a championship contender
Don’t really like the idea of drafting a player with health concerns if we’re looking toward the future.
by hcblankscreen on Oct 24, 2009 7:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is why I’m still okay with the Clark decision
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Oct 24, 2009 9:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gamble or No
Gamble or no on his health, Clark and Blair have different tendancies. Clark is out jacking up jumpers while Blair is pulling rebounds and dunking.
by eagleheart on Oct 25, 2009 12:30 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not worried about closed windows
I said nothing about winning a championship….I simply said Nash has 3 years left at best and then we will have to have someone who can replace him….It’s fine if Dragic turns out to be a serviceable PG…Serviceable players dont start…They come off the bench…Like I said, we need a guy that can play NOW…Not a guy that MIGHT be able to play in a few years….These are the years we need to be grooming the guy to replace Nash….You are the one that’s in denial if you think Dragic is that guy….
I have to ask, what is the point of the D-League if not for young players to develop and get better?…Dominating that lesser competition makes a person awefully confident….Hmmm what has everyone been saying Dragic needs?…Oh yeah, confidence….For the record he didn’t exactly dominate in Europe either….So how do we know he would dominate the D-League?….
So you guys are telling me and everyone else that in a couple years you are going to be happy with Dragic running our team?….This is not the time for a project at our most pressing need….Especially when there are so many other young, more productive, and more NBA ready PGs out there….Sarver and Kerr seem to have screwed plenty up but I’m glad it’s not some of you guys running this team…That’s not to say I would do any better, but if I could see any glimmer of an NBA starting PG in Dragic I would back off and give him time…I haven’t….I live in OKC and I would take any of their PGs over Dragic….I would even rather have Earl Watson….
Can’t knock you guys for lack of optimism….But come on, who is really the ones in denial here?….Dragic is not the next KJ, Kidd, or Nash….Not even close….Wake up
by NSU Stud on Oct 25, 2009 1:25 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
You said you live out of town
and you don’t get to see a whole lot of games… I don’t understand how you can be so quick to pass such a sure and supported judgment on Dragic. Buy the NBA league pass and watch him night in night out – then let us know if you think he has no professional ability.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Oct 25, 2009 6:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
so your saying
Dragic plays great until he is on National TV?…for some reason that is the only time he looks so terrible…Granted I’ve only seen him play a handful of times but i havent seen anyone else play so emphatically poorly….so if its just for some reason he is just plain garbage on tv but great or even good the rest of the time then im sorry….but i dont think that is the case
by NSU Stud on Oct 26, 2009 11:17 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
..no
I didn’t say anything about national TV.
Let me emphasize the main point of the comment. I don’t understand how you can be so quick to pass such a sure and supported judgment having only watched a few games.
It is apparent that you have never seen him when he runs the offense well and plays with confidence (which he has done). I am suggesting you watch him when he’s on his game, and then tell me you still think he has no professional ability. The fact that he is inconsistent has already been discussed. The point of the article was to display that PGs generally take a few seasons to become consistent contributors and to propose more patience with Dragic to some of the irrational fans like yourself who make sweeping judgments on hearsay or a ‘handful of games’ where he didn’t look too hot in his rookie season.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Oct 27, 2009 1:50 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point is the same
If he was an NBA talent I would have seen it at least once or twice by now….So it’s safe to assume that he only flashes this brillance in untelevised games against lesser teams or in practice…Two places anyone can look good on a given day….All we can do it wait….I just hope you can take the shame of having backed a 12th man PG at best when it all pans out….I don’t even think he will be in the NBA in 5 years….We will have to see….I’m not usually wrong….I like to be right….I like letting everyone else know how right I was too….We will see
by NSU Stud on Oct 27, 2009 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha - don't worry too much about me and my shame
I still don’t think you understand why I wrote this article – reread the second to last paragraph.
I’m not saying that he will be the next big superstar point guard – I’m only proposing a little more patience with the development of a player through an argument based on his statistics compared to those of other developing point guards.
It’s an interesting statement you make by saying there is shame in supporting the development of a player… especially one who shows progressive improvement. I’m glad you are so confident in your speculations.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Oct 27, 2009 3:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wil
I usually agree with most of your posts, but that one is just way off….He doesnt have to be CP3 or Rose….but he isnt even an Andre Miller or Kirk Hinrich….Hell he isnt even a Beno Udrih….This team can still thrive again and be back in contention without having to have 5 yrs of rebuilding…This is not an old team….So this window may be closed but Dragic is preventing another one from opening anytime soon…Don’t worry I’m one of those who loves to say “I told you so”…So when he flops like we all know he will….I’ll be sure so let you know….And by all means, if he somehow turns into an NBA all-star or even a top 20 PG in this league I’ll be sure to eat my words….
by NSU Stud on Oct 25, 2009 1:35 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
This team can still thrive again and be back in contention without having to have 5 yrs of rebuilding…
No one said it would take 5 years. What do you mean by “thrive” and “be back in contention?” In contention for a playoff spot? A title?
So this window may be closed but Dragic is preventing another one from opening anytime soon
Implying or stating that one player is keeping the Suns from becoming one of the best teams in the league is pretty ridiculous, especially if that guy is a backup point guard. The Suns have numerous issues to deal with this season, and backup PG is just another one of them. Even if Andre Miller (or insert player of your choice) was the Suns backup, there would still be holes.
It’s OK to disagree with me or anyone else around here. It’s also OK to say Dragic isn’t good or won’t be good. But Eutychus presented an argument based on some legitimite statistics. All you are doing is answering that with your opinion. We get it. You don’t like Dragic or you think he won’t be good, OK, agree to disagree
by Wil Cantrell on Oct 26, 2009 9:55 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I can do that
It may be my opnion again, and I appreciating the effort, but those charts didnt prove much of anything….he is obviously well educated and well spoken but that doesnt change the data…I mean are you really excited over a .05 increase in steals?…the only thing that chart showeed was an increase in shooting percentage and 3 more ppg yet you all are acting like he went from Bobby Jackson to Tony Parker….Those numbers are not that good to begin with so saying they improved especially so slightly isnt saying much at all….My whole argument has been that he isnt ready for the NBA NOW….and that there are plenty of better options to be had….I’ve said several times to send him to the D-league or europe until he IS ready….thats what the Spurs do….They might have won a title or two….The Suns do have many problems but they didnt extend Nash to coach Dragic….they still want to compete at a high level….By saying that Dragice is preventing another window from opening I mean after Nash is gone….Its clear you dont win a championship with a good pg and inside player….So who is going to fill Nash’s shoes when he is gone?….I promise you it wont be Dragic….It cracks me up that you guys are so pessimistic about the Suns playoff and title hopes yet so optimistic over this guy….It just doesnt add up to me….I wish it did…Dragic is a bum and I will be more than happy to tell you so when you finally see….Until then i will agree to strongly disagree….I live in OKC so I know what talent for the Future looks like…Wish you could too
by NSU Stud on Oct 26, 2009 11:09 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't get me wrong though
I love the effort. And had the post been on someone remotely relevent I would have totally given you all the kudos in the world….So I like your writing just definitely disagree on Dragic…..Hope noone thinks I dont appreciate the thought and effort you put into your posts…We just need to get you pointed in a better direction….
by NSU Stud on Oct 27, 2009 3:37 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
any suggestions?
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Oct 27, 2009 3:55 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
just sick to the mainstream stuff i guess...
you know how tim duncan is the greatest pf, chris paul is a great pg, blake griffin will be ROY and lebron is a freak of nature. safe stuff like that haha :)
by Suns' Sensei on Oct 27, 2009 9:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about Kobe v Jordan? i don’t think that one’s been done before…
by Chucko on Nov 1, 2009 10:51 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey thanks by the way
Thanks for accepting my opinion and ensueing “trash” talk and not getting all upset and offended by it….Your attitude has swayed me more on Dragic than your posts….Thanks for not being a bitch basically…So I will concede this, I didnt see the game but the kid had a good line at least…So he gets one more game in my book….haha
by NSU Stud on Oct 28, 2009 11:56 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
BTW -
NBA.com is offering a free trial of their League Pass til Nov 3rd – You can watch the game online on-demand that way if you want! Here’s a link.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Oct 29, 2009 12:14 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Knowing the Suns
You guys are idiots here. If you are going to run a Suns site then at least know the Suns history.
The Suns began their existence led by Hall of Fame PG Gail Goodrich years before they acquired Westphal. Goodrich was more of a scoring point but his two best assists seasons came while he was a Sun, averaging about 7 per game.
The Suns then went for a few seasons without a pure PG. First Clem “The Gem” Haskins and later Haskins and former ABA & NBA All-Star Charlie Scott shared the Phoenix backcourt and play-making duties.
Westphal is now acquired from Boston for Charlie Scott. But yet Westphal is not a pure PG either. He is a SG who can pass, he only averaged about 4-5 assists per game. He first paired with Ricky Sobers who only dished for around three assists. Sobers was traded to Indiana for Don Buse. Buse had averaged over 8 assists per game for Indiana the previous season. Westphal and Buse ran the Suns equally in Phoenix, Buse getting over 4 dimes and Westphal maybe five per game.
Now how do you go from Westphal to Hornacek? First off, Hornacek was NEVER a PG. Secondly you forget that Westphal was traded for Hall of Fame PG Dennis Johnson.
After trading Johnson to Boston, the Suns didn’t have much of a backcourt and drafted Jay Humphries and then later Hornacek. There was NOT a period between Humphries and Kevin Johnson where Hornacek was the Suns PG. After the drug scandal and at the trading deadline in ‘88, Cotton made three trades, one was trading Humphries to the Bucks and another was acquiring Kevin Johnson from Cleveland. There was actually ONE game where Phoenix didn’t have neither Humphries or Johnson.
Then you know it was Kevin Johnson and Jason Kidd. Nash was drafted by Phoenix while both KJ and Kidd were the Suns starting backcourt.
If you need more accurate Suns history, come to Azcentral, where I provide the most accurate Suns information. I am the all-knowing Mihajlo, EarlBlackJesusMonroe, or LeapingLarryNance.
by Mihajlo on Nov 1, 2009 4:59 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Glad you could grace us with your almighty presence...
I am amazed at how well you captured the main point of my post!
You guys are idiots here. If you are going to run a Suns site then at least know the Suns history.
Nice to meet you too!
Thanks for reminding me of why I disable the comments section at Azcentral.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Nov 1, 2009 5:39 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Damn
I only made it through two comments before ejecting that guy…that’s probably a record
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Phoenix Stan on Nov 2, 2009 4:54 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
he'll be back...
fortunately, he was kind of enough to tell us that he’ll come back as EarlBlackJesusMonroe or LeapingLarryNance.
by Suns' Sensei on Nov 2, 2009 5:20 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
We have filters
to prevent people from signing back up with a different user name if they’ve been banned
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Phoenix Stan on Nov 3, 2009 6:49 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought that was pretty random..
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Nov 2, 2009 10:21 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Ignorance is Bliss
“Thanks for reminding me of why I disable the comments section at Azcentral.”
So you can continue to posting falsehoods about the Suns without being contradicted with the truth?
“I am amazed at how well you captured the main point of my post!”
Man, you really are slow! I only corrected your supporting facts to your main point. your main point was being patient with the development of Goran Dragic.
I’m amazed that you don’t even know the main point of your own post! Where did I make any mention of Goran Dragic and the need for fans to be patient with his development?
But since you have been very cordial, it has been very nice meeting you also. If you desire help in the future with your writing please feel free to ask, because you definitely need it.
by Mihajlo on Nov 1, 2009 6:53 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Sarcasm is Science...
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Nov 1, 2009 7:24 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
What a buffet!
Are you kidding? With all of the falsehoods Eutychus posts about the Suns I could become very fat and happy staying here and correcting him.
by Mihajlo on Nov 2, 2009 7:33 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that all you got?
LMFAO! How pathetic!
by Mihajlo on Nov 1, 2009 7:37 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
Yup
It was nice to have known your arrogance.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Nov 2, 2009 8:38 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the word "Mihajlo" is japanese for narcissist ?
picture being trapped in an elevator with that guy for a long period of time! lol
by dontTradeAaronNelson! on Nov 3, 2009 4:03 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
This is the kind of foolishness
That the azcentral site is known for. It is basically known as a place you can get cursed, one-upped, insulted, or otherwise made to feel as if you wish you had those precious minutes back that are gone forever. We may not be right all of the time at BSOTS, but I really enjoy the time I spend here. And Mihaljo, I know my Suns history, having been a fan since 1971. But I don’t use it to beat people over the head. Get a life.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
by Hawk42 on Nov 4, 2009 9:22 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
What I thought was funny
was that his whole criticism was about two things:
- I left out a few Hall of Famers and All-Stars when mentioning how spoiled we’ve been in Phoenix… I’ll admit I’m guilty – but for being spawned in 85’ I mentioned all the PG’s that I could remember being a life long Suns fan, and I should read a little more Suns history… but with this type of criticism you can’t call me out for falsehoods… – neglect maybe – but not falsehoods.
- His second gripe was this – “First off, Hornacek was NEVER a PG” – well, I didn’t want to get in a shouting match – BUT HE WAS. I’ll admit that old Horny isn’t a true PG – he’s more of a combo-guard, but he did run the offense an awful lot here in Phoenix and averaged a high total of assists per game in those 6 seasons wearing purple and orange. Plus.. just to throw it out there – when Hornacek was traded to the Sixers he did play at pure point guard for a year.
Anyways – that’s what I was most tickled by, how confrontational he wanted to be with 2 VERY weak criticisms and lot of bully language.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Nov 4, 2009 10:48 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
add to that
he couldn’t decipher my obvious sarcasm.. I laughed out loud at that.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Nov 4, 2009 10:50 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Regardless
of what he says, the Suns DID play Horny at point guard for some of the time. By the time that fatefull 28-54 season rolled around, It had become clear that Humphries could not shoot well enough to break down defenses, and was a modest distributor at best. He may have been better with better teammates. He built up some good stats, but stats don’t tell the whole story, nor do they settle arguments. Humphries lacked a certain dynamism to his game that you need from a point guard. Again – forget the stats – I watched the games.
It is interesting to note while cataloguing the Suns’ draft failures that three spots after Humphries was taken, the Jazz drafted John Stockton.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
by Hawk42 on Nov 5, 2009 10:23 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll lean on your testimony more than any stats – plus – I was about six months old when Hornacek was drafted by the Suns…
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Nov 5, 2009 11:03 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Another thing --
Statistics don’t tell the whole story. A lot of times these guys seize on one erroneous or misinterpreted stat (from their point of view) and miss your whole point. Kind of like a Supreme Court nominee who is a quality judge and the senators fixate on one or two cases instead of the entire body of work.
In the case of Dragic, many of us are concerned about his confidence, ability to lead, and lack of a killer instinct. I admit holding the kid up to the example of Kevin Johnson seems a bit harsh. But, hey, he is bidding to join an exclusive fraternity of rare individuals (DJ, KJ, Kidd, Nash). Is he going to be a Humphries or a KJ? A Buse or a Nash? We;ll have to see.
I must say, I am inpressed with his showing last night. Is this the first time he has had more points and assists than Nash in the same game? Kind of a milestone for the boy. I did not see the game. Was he playing against Jameer Nelson?
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
by Hawk42 on Nov 5, 2009 11:27 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Jay Williams
Most of his minutes came against White Chocolate
http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20091104&game=PHOORL
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Phoenix Stan on Nov 5, 2009 1:18 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
nice
I’ve never heard of the popcornmachine but I like the site! – Is there a links page on BSOTS with links to sweet basketball stat pages like this?
Hawk: I didn’t catch the game – but I agree with you, it’s a wait and see deal with MD (Magic Dragic). Though through 5 games in this regular season he has been very consistent!
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on Nov 5, 2009 1:28 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
BTW, like the look
The site looks great. Easy to read and all. Thanks for all the work you put in.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
by Hawk42 on Nov 5, 2009 3:00 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs
Fine Fine Fine
He has til the All-Star break…I didn’t see the game either but I assume it was a blowout early if Dragic got that many minutes…I did watch the Heat game though…He looked better…Still ackward and scared but better…I still don’t think he is the future though…Future career backup maybe…But if he buys Nash 12-15 minutes a game to rest, then good enough…Hopefully we will get a real future PG in the next year or two…But for now, I will leave him alone
by NSU Stud on Nov 5, 2009 6:39 PM MST reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather have dragic
I’ll take dragic as he is right now at over Stephon Marbury or Allen Iverson at point guard. At least he can distibute the ball. He’s a team player
by eagleheart on Nov 7, 2009 8:44 AM MST reply actions 0 recs
ditto on that one
Dragic has changed from a liability to a contributor. Remember LB when he started? We couldn’t even put him on the court, he made so many mistakes.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
by Hawk42 on Nov 7, 2009 10:21 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
I was just thinking about LB
and how difficult his first couple of year where. He would show that explosive speed and do some nice things but he was so out of control and beyond his individual occasional brilliance didn’t give all that much.
He’s a more well-rounded player now in his 6th year but he’s still not nearly the kind of point guard that Dragic is. Of course Dragic isn’t the kind of scorer that LB is which is why they are nice on the floor together
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Phoenix Stan on Nov 7, 2009 11:31 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
About LB
Back in the day, people were putting LB and Diaw in the same “talented but underachieving and frustrating” label (aka lots of fans were yelling “trade the bum!”) .
This was when the Suns were trying to force him into a role as a distributor. After they gave up on turning him into a “full time backup” point guard, no one is saying that stuff about LB anymore. He has really done great in his role as instant offense off the bench.
by eagleheart on Nov 8, 2009 12:54 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
About Dragic
I think Dragic is still getting used to the American NBA game. I think we can all agree he has made big strides since the beginning of last year. Brandon Jennings was saying the other day that the difference between American and European ball is that over there it is more of a team game where they get everyone involved. Over here ballers are used to playing where one guy isolates and shoots the ball himself without making a pass. I think Dragic is a bit unused to keeping the ball for himself and shooting which is what his teammates may be expecting from him at times. There have been a few times where he has seemed a bit surprised at how open he is able to get himself to the rim. As he gets more comfortable and he balances looking for his own offense a bit more along with his team first instincts he’ll continue to grow more effective.
by eagleheart on Nov 8, 2009 1:00 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs
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