Why Losing to the Lakers is a Good Plan for the Suns (or at least isn't the end of the world)

by Seth Pollack on Nov 12, 2009 8:30 AM MST in Commentary Comment 45 comments

With this scorching start the Phoenix Suns are on pace to win 73 games. That's not going to happen which means at some point the team is going to go on a slump and fans expectations are going to be crushed and the disappointment and anxiety level will rise.

Even more important than how fans and media react to the coming adversity is how the team prepares itself for the long haul.

Right now, from Coach Gentry on down we are hearing a story of humility and desire coming from the Suns. Gentry talks about waiting until 20 or 25 games in to assess the team and that Amare has another level to jump to in his game. Nash talks about how the team is still figuring itself out. Hill calls it a work in progress.

This team is playing with a fire and edge that comes from being a discounted underdog. That extra oomph has been the difference in at least two close games this season and is needed to overcome the size disadvantage the Suns face on a nightly basis. When your front line is over-matched physically it takes a special kind of energy to win the rebounding battle.

Beating the World Champion Lakers on their floor on the second night of back-to-back would raise fans expectations through the roof and risks taking away the team's edge that it needs to bring that effort every night. We've seen how the pressure of "eye on the prize" can sap the Suns energy. We've seen how the media and fans explode with angst at every set back once the bar has been raised to the championship level.

What this team needs more than a win tonight is to continue to believe that they are the underdog and that they must work hard to get better every day.

That's why a loss tonight to the Lakers isn't such a bad idea.

[Note by Phoenix Stan, 11/12/09 10:52 AM MST ]

To clarify my point that probably wasn't made clear enough in the original rushed draft this morning....

While I strongly feel that a loss tonight isn't a bad thing and in fact has an "upside" I also by no means think the Suns should (or will) lay down and not try and get the win.

BEAT LA!!

Poll

Do you think it's a bad thing if the Suns lose to the Lakers?

Heck yes! The Suns can and should win this game!

345 votes

I want them to win but a loss isn't bad either

470 votes

Losing tonight is the best thing for the team in the long run

145 votes

960 votes | Poll has closed

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Comments

Great insight!

I’m expecting a Suns loss today, even if the startes are “rested.” If they win, I’ll be extatic, but if they lose, I will in no way be dissapointed. You make great points, and I am with you for the most part. I would never expect them to lose on purpose, but if they do, it is of no concern to me.

by SunsFTW on Nov 12, 2009 8:56 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

Solid logic...

But the Suns need to win some of these games between them and the top crust of the Western Conference because, as we’ve seen with Goran, confidence can carry you. Yes, they need to keep their underdog mentality and play every game like it means something and I have to think that Steve and Grant will try and keep fresh in everybody’s mind plus our bench players always play like they’re the underdog because almost all of them are. As far as losing the underdog mentality, I really don’t think that anyone’s going to give this team a pass to the finals if they beat LA w/out Gasol in the 10th game of the season…some of the bandwagon fans might get carried away with it but as a team I think that a win against this Lakers squad on this night won’t go to anybody’s head – it’ll just be a good test of where they’re at and another notch in the win column.

by watdogg10 on Nov 12, 2009 9:04 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

I agree

- with the attitude this team has had all year and the leadership that hones it I doubt a win tonight would disrupt their concentration, determination, and focus.

Fans on the other hand? Well the bandwagon has officially been fired up again – so I expect the extreme perspectives and projections from random peanut galleries.

For me and my house – I root for Cryant and his minions to lose every game, no matter who they play… why will I change that?

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 12, 2009 9:55 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Though I don't disagree with te sentiment..

Having the tiebreaker down the road against the Lakers, not to mention control of the pacific, would be huge…

by Fritzy on Nov 12, 2009 9:53 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

great points

this media is making me sick lately with how fickle they are/were.

over half the media reports out there don’t even mention our chemistry and grit as a contributing factor—even though our whole team is pointing to that as the biggest factor to our early, small successes. the media are still talking about us “reverting” to SSOL (which isn’t really all that accurate if u track our fast break points) and not even noticing that we are winning in a variety of different ways and that our bench is stepping up. its like the media don’t even actually watch our games, they merely remember what we used to look like a few years ago and then read each others articles, rehash them, add some more controversial sentences about nash and hill’s age, then click publish. this lack of understanding the subject is a mark of lazy journalism, if you ask me

anyway, thats my rant against mainstream sports media. i am friggin loving this start and would love a win tonight, but either way im not going to be overly optimistic. lets hear it for the underdogs!!

by yanyanman2 on Nov 12, 2009 9:54 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

to that end, I actually credit Mark Jackson on the ESPN broadcast last night

Most announcers aren’t even reacting to the play on the floor and are just using game notes from 4 years ago..no D, uptempo, short bench, blah blah blah…but he actually was paying enough attention to give us props for the D, he knew what our bench was capable of, and he recognized this is not 7SOL redux…

incredible…

by Fritzy on Nov 12, 2009 3:33 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, I didn't vote because there aren't enough options......

While I agree with your underlying premise Stan (the Suns should not and cannot afford to get overconfident) , I do not think going out and lying down for the Lakers, or laying an egg in this game will do anything to help this team in the long run. While I do not think a loss is necessarily the end of the world, we have to specify what kind of loss and how they lose.

If the Suns come out and get totally outplayed, dominated on the boards, out hussled, with the Lakers getting every loose ball, etc. and lose by 30 PTS I do not see how that is good for them.

If, on the other hand, they come out and are very competitive; i.e., shoot well, limit the Lakers second chance pts., execute well (don’t turn the ball over alot etc.) but lose a close game down the stretch, say by 5 or 6 pts, they you could say it was a moral victory, just because of the huge scheduling advantage for the Lakers (with prep time etc.)

So, in your poll it might have been good if an option was Suns get blown out (lose by 12 or more) and also competitive loss ( 5 to 11 pts), or Nailbiter (1-4 pts). This might have been better to poll it that way. Nevertheless, I do see what you’re getting at. But, does it ultimately make that much difference to the team is the fanbase panics during a losing streak? Of course there will be tough losses during the season, that is the nature of a long season etc. I don’t think most fans I so shortsighted or ignorant that a loss to a below .500 team is going to cause them to lose all hope (at least I hope not).

You do make a good point about the level of energy and desire needed to play at a Championship level, and I agree completely with this statement:

When your front line is over-matched physically it takes a special kind of energy to win the rebounding battle.

I think that is very true. But with the way we’ve been playing I think we CAN bring that energy and can win the rebounding battle, especially since Gasol will not be playing tonight. Indeed, to my earlier point, if the Suns are crushed it could be somewhat demoralizing considering the fact that the Lakers don’t have Gasol. The logic is this: “If they beat us by 15 pts without Gasol, What will it be like with him in the lineup??”"

I think you see my point here.

So, why not saddle up and nut up and go out and box the shit out of Bynum and Odom and GET THOSE DAMN REBOUNDS! Don’t let the Lakers dominate the offensive glass like the usually do.

If the Suns bring it like I think they can, they could win this game, and, contrary to your thesis, I think it would be great for the team. So what if the fanbase gets overly excited ?
A leader like Nash will not allow his troops to become complacent or overconfident. I believe this strongly.

So, if the Suns play well and lose a close game, I will be disappointed, but will not lose hope. I think they can win, and of course will be rooting hard tonight.

But, to say that a team should go out and lose a game because the fanbase might “explode with angst”, come on now Stan. With all due respect, this just sounds a bit ridiculous. To quote Herman Edwards

“YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME.” Come on people. ’YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!"

by Jack Frost on Nov 12, 2009 10:05 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

I like your spunk

I like my position – I see Stan’s point and it’s a good one. I see Jack Frost’s point and it’s a good one. So what am I going to do?

Sit back and enjoy the show tonight! Either way I will always be happy watching my Suns, especially with the heart they are playing with.

P.S. Frost… how do you stand living in LA? If I had the same hatred against the Lakers as you AND lived in lakerville.. I would probably die from excessive vomiting as I watched the daily news and wandered the Laker infested streets…

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 12, 2009 10:44 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, it does make me sick to see all the idiotic Laker fans...

they have these stupid car flags that they put on their windows. The flags come out everytime the Lakers make it to the West. Conf. finals.

To be honest, I was at one time a Laker fan. Many years back when Magic was running in the Forum. It was Kobe’s egotism and behavior that sickened me so much that I couldn’t follow them further. I had always respected Nash’s game when he played for Dallas. I had also liked the style of the Suns with Nash. So, in 2001-2002 I started rooting against the Lakers. I wanted them to lose. Around that time I feel in love with the Suns style of play and have been a fan since about 2003. So, there it is!

by Jack Frost on Nov 12, 2009 11:24 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I live in LA too!

It’s not so bad. It’s a little nauseating when the Lakers do advance in the playoffs, but it was pretty awesome when the Suns eliminated them.

Twitter: @MikeLisboa

by Mike Lisboa on Nov 12, 2009 11:39 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

you guys didn’t get jumped did you? haha

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 12, 2009 11:40 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Never

My worst Suns moments since moving to LA 6 years ago are limited to being surround by Lakers fans during a Suns loss to them. My Laker friends like to give me a hard time, but I’ve never had anyone be an out-and-out douche about it.

Worst moment ever was easily when Kobe hit the game winner in game 4 to put the Suns down 3-1 in 2006. Through some unfortunate misunderstanding of what time the game was on(EST vs PST), I found myself shopping at an outdoor mall with my girlfriend instead of watching the game. When Kobe hit that shot I nearly threw my cell phone into a fountain.

Most random Suns/Lakers fan moment? At the Suns-Clippers game two weeks ago, some kid on the concourse in Lakers jersey yelled, “Go, Phoenix!” I don’t even know how to begin to explain that other than some really odd and misdirected Clipper hatred.

Twitter: @MikeLisboa

by Mike Lisboa on Nov 12, 2009 11:47 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

just to add as an outsider

… I visited US couple of times, and I loved LA and Cali…. but hated lakers already from late eightees, when I rooted for Isiah in those two finals… it’s not that I loved pistons at all, but I don’t know, just didn’t like all that fuss, celebrities (seeing beckham who is like an icon here makes me throw up… basketball barely exists in UK!!!), and other crap assosiated with that team…

by zeze_999 on Nov 12, 2009 1:25 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

You need to visit Nor Cal Zee

it’s much nicer up here :-)

by Fritzy on Nov 12, 2009 3:37 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

well I said

I loved Cali, not mentioning I visited Frisco as well… beautiful city… but LA was very nice as well… I took a big sure road as well, played with seals :-)

by zeze_999 on Nov 13, 2009 1:08 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Nice and most appreciated

I don’t think I was saying the Suns should lay down and not play to win. At least I hope that’s not what I said (I wrote this very quickly between my morning coffee and leaving for the office so…you know…)

So to clarify….

I do think that a loss isn’t a bad thing but I don’t think the team should do anything but play as hard as they can and try to win.

Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan

by Seth Pollack on Nov 12, 2009 10:50 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm

I think you are overstating your case just a bit. I think you are correct in saying that if we lose it needs to be a good loss. One that is not necessarily measured by points but by determination and the Suns ability to pull themselves out of funky situations. However your overall assessment of the state of the team is overstated.

“A leader like Nash will not allow his troops to become complacent or overconfident. I believe this strongly.”

This is simply untrue not to mention virtually impossible. No team leader can accomplish this feat. With so many wins (and good ones too) behind them, even the best leader in the world would be hard pressed to keep people from becoming bigheaded about it. Further, we have seen in the past how Nash, for all his ability and influence, does not dictate the emotions of the team especially in these instances.

I am going to stick with Stan’s assessment that a loss tonight might not be so bad. I know it will come soon, my only question is would we rather lose to the Lakers tonight or to a lesser team next week? We have to come down and I would rather it be close than a blowout, but a loss to the Lakers tonight (when we can blame it on the back-to-back) might be the best option both for the media coverage and for player confidence.

Go read a book!

by N8lol on Nov 12, 2009 10:53 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I think to...

To win or even be successful in the NBA you have to have a killer instinct. I don’t ever thing the Suns would lay down and take the beating. No team would. That’s why you play the game … to win. But I see your point I just feel like as fans we have kind of grown and learned from the past few season like nash, hill, and stat have. We will take the outcome in stride and move on to the next game and do our best to bring that killer instinct.

TO THE NBA - " Yeah, you have created a rift within me ; Now there have been ; several complications ; that have left me feeling nothing ; I might say, you were ; wrong to take it from me ; Left me feeling nothing " - Disturbed, "Numb"

by antiw0rm on Nov 12, 2009 10:16 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

How very Popovich of you

The Suns should obviously try and win this game as they should try and win every one. I think no one expects them to win 70 games, but the more they can pile up these early season wins, the more it ultimately helps their cause in terms of seeding and whatnot.

2 weeks ago this team was projected as an 8 seed. They still might be an 8 seed, but now they have an opportunity to make a legitimate run at a 4 seed or better. There’s a lot of basketball left to play against a lot of good teams. Lest we forget, this is the Suns first game against a top 10 Western Conference ball club.

A loss here would definitely hit home how much more they have to do, but a win wouldn’t be the end of the world. Ultimately, the guys have to play for themselves and not worry about the burden of increased expectations.

Twitter: @MikeLisboa

by Mike Lisboa on Nov 12, 2009 10:18 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

I'm not positive

Expectations would increase by anybody but us fans anyway. There is a lot of buzz looming around the league. But for a second stop and look at the playoff picture and in MANY circles we still are on the edge if at all even included. It will take much more this season to bring back the public believers. Then we still have to deal with all of the questions about “can they win a championship with out banging in the paint?”

You are very much correct in your post though. Stan did a good job at getting some of us to reply and think about it. I think that was his intent more so than his belief. If that makes any sense.

by antiw0rm on Nov 12, 2009 10:24 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

According to "predictions" ...

The Horners are (or were) a top 10 Western Conference ball club. Many experts predicted them to seed higher than the Suns.

by jburning on Nov 12, 2009 10:27 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

As a matter of fact.. so were the Clippers

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 12, 2009 10:46 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Including some on this board.

I made it a point to correct that nonsense.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Nov 12, 2009 2:10 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought it was a funny joke at first

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 12, 2009 2:36 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

I can dig it up, but

Somewhere along the line someone said it. I posted a thread about who would get the top eight, and my argument was that there was no way the Suns would fall below 8th. Someone said the Clips would beat them out. One guy said the Thunder, and still another poor soul thought the Warriors were better than Phoenix. Now everyone is a wizard and pretends they knew it all along.

Now THAT’S a funny joke.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Nov 12, 2009 2:48 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Nice Pop reference

I remember well that late season game in 05 when he deliberately held out Duncan and Ginobli even though they were not hurt. A full strength Suns squad barely won, and the seed was planted for when the teams would meet in the playoffs.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Nov 12, 2009 2:13 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

WIN

We should play to win, and I hope we do!!!
I understand about the underdog mentality but that seems like a coaching thing with keeping your player’s focused. I think Gentry has done a damn good job of that and I can already hear the reactions they players would say if we won. The team is smarter now and aren’t focused on winning it all. They are taking everything one game at a time. If we win, we win kind of mentality and Gentry has done a good job a keeping that…
It could also be the ‘let downs’ that the team has faced.. I think the Vet players know what it feel like to have a bar placed for you and when you don’t reach it, for the fans and media to be upset. Also its the ‘championship caliber’ talk from the front office. Durring the Dantoni wonder years the phrase ‘championship’ team was not only said by the players but also by Kerr, Savers etc… they set their own bar and let the media influence them.
I think the team has learned a lot from that time, and I think we have the Shaq experiment to credit it….
Lets win it!

by Will Smith on Nov 12, 2009 10:48 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

Losing is a great teacher

But we have had enought of that for a while. I would rather lose to the St. Mary’s junior varsity than the Lakers.

Sorry, Stan.

Lakers suck!!!

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Nov 12, 2009 11:04 AM MST reply actions 1 recs

I AGREE. BEAT LA!!! BEAT LA!!! BEAT LA!!! BEAT LA!!! BEAT LA !!! BEAT LA!!! BEAT LA!!!

Come and joing me. Remember the chant from the aearly 90’s and when we finally beat the Lakers in the playoffs.

by Suns Fan For Life on Nov 12, 2009 11:15 AM MST up reply actions 0 recs

The Lakers are beasting. No need to be discouraged if the Suns lose this one.

by Vic De Zen on Nov 12, 2009 11:15 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

Would this loss result in more wins?

I don’t think you can say that for sure. It’s just math to me. If we lose, what would change that would result in more than one win in the future? The long season often comes down to a game or two to determine playoff standings (just remember last year’s western conference race). So if we lose this game, do you really think the mental adjustments would result in a net positive in the long term? I’m not willing to take that risk.

Basketball is a game of confidence, ESPECIALLY offensively. You can always battle it out on the boards and on D, but in order to be a great scoring team, you need that confidence. A win boosts confidence. A loss will deplete it. Admittedly, the loss will come at some point, whether tonight or sometime in the future. I say, a win is a win, and the more the better.

by tptman on Nov 12, 2009 11:32 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

Agree

by Jack Frost on Nov 12, 2009 11:39 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

Solid Clarification

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 12, 2009 11:39 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm....

I am going to the game tonight, and as much as I would love to see the Suns go on a scoring fest the way they did last night, I take comfort in the fact that if we lose, it will be a reality check for our team that we still have a long way to go. If we lose tonight, it will mean we have only lost to the Eastern and Western Conference Champions so far this season. Still not a bad thing, and still way beyond what everyone was expecting.

If we win tonight, it might spoil us a little bit, and make us think we are doing everything right. Trying to mimmick what we have been doing is probably a lot harder than having a mindset of trying to get better. A win might be an illusion, and we need to be aware of the realities that the upper-crest teams are nasty and that we cannot always shoot our way out of things.

A loss tonight might be better in the long run. It keeps the media off our backs and keeps the pressure off our players. Nobody went into this season thinking we were a contender. It is amazing what lowered expectations can do. I think we are going to go out there and play them with everything we got.

At the same time, I would love to see a win.

We’ll see where it takes us.

By the way, I love our team chemistry. It is absolutely beautiful to watch the lack of selfishness. Jared Dudley fighting for rebounds even when we are up 25 points…it’s a beautiful thing. Our defense is starting to look really good at times, too. I love the hustle we are seeing. We are doing all the little things, now, the little things that are difference makers. This is a team of guys that just wants to win basketball games, one at a time. Not a team looking down the road, not a team of players looking to put up numbers…we just wanna win each game as we play it..

by DaMax85 on Nov 12, 2009 11:56 AM MST reply actions 0 recs

Hypothetically speaking...

I think come playoff time, even if SOMEHOW we were the Number 1 Seed in the West, or even the league, we would STILL be considered underdogs against more than half of the other teams in the playoffs.

by DaMax85 on Nov 12, 2009 12:02 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

On an unrelated note, looks like we were the straw that broke the camel's back last night

Byron Scott just got fired

by IrrationalAgent on Nov 12, 2009 12:01 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

On an unrelated note, looks like we were the straw that broke the camel's back last night

Byron Scott just got fired

by IrrationalAgent on Nov 12, 2009 12:01 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

oops

by IrrationalAgent on Nov 12, 2009 12:01 PM MST up reply actions 0 recs

Just don't give LA any bulletin board material

Fanaticism is not logical

by SunDolphin on Nov 12, 2009 12:17 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

Other than being on the road for the second night of a b2b

i see no reason why the suns shouldn’t beat LA.

The Charles Barkley 2009/10 Ancestors Count: 1 Grandmothers , 0 Mother Alltime: Reg. 24-0 Playoffs 7-0

"There were arms coming from everywhere, and I knew they weren’t going for the ball," Miller said. "I was just trying to get [the shot] up before they called some crap like ‘on the ground.’ "

"What do you want me to do?" Wright asked. "Do you want me to Derek Fisher him?"

"Give them some fucking credit, i mean for real." Jackson said.

"I just fell on my face for no reason," Bryant deadpanned. "I'm a klutz."

"Fucking right i'm preachin' it!" Carlisle replied.

"Rough life, isn't it. It's tough all over, isn't it." Smith chuckled.

by DOH on Nov 12, 2009 12:17 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

beat l.a.

i don’t think a loss is ever good but if it happens have it happen early in the season just not to the lakers sorry i hate kobe and everything they stand for.will be a great match up go suns!!!!!!

by clinton p on Nov 12, 2009 2:14 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

We also have to figure in what I call the "Suns effect"

And that is every team expects to have to score 130 points to beat us regardless of if they say it or not. I think the last couple years we’ve lost a lot of games due to that.

by antiw0rm on Nov 12, 2009 3:53 PM MST reply actions 0 recs

This article...

…is either a sincerely-thought-out concept or an excellent piece of propaganda, written to preserve morale should a loss take place. At any rate, I like the fact that we are struggling to lower our expectations for this team, instead of having to raise them. BEAT L.A.!!

by Silkster on Nov 12, 2009 5:19 PM MST reply actions 0 recs