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Daily Links: MVP Steve Times 3 ?

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Basketball-Reference.com Blog " Blog Archive " Nash Gunning For a Third MVP?
The Suns' performance so far has been both surprising and commendable, but the jury is still out on whether they can maintain it, because the best predictor of future results says they're not quite as good as their record says they are.

I have to agree with this....The Suns have played great but in many ways it's been done with hustle and grit and a bit of smoke and mirrors. I am no where near ready to say that the Suns can beat the Lakers, Spurs or Nuggets in a playoff series. And as GREAT as Nash has been he has tendency to slow down as the season wears on.

Enjoy the early season success but this ride will still be more roller coaster than rocket ship....

Now go prove me wrong, Phoenix Suns and keep winning!

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Rookies

The one guy on the list for rookies that the Suns had a chance to draft wa sLawson. I thought he would be gone at 14. After seeing him at UNC and in the NCAAS, I did not doubt he would be a good pro. I hope we don’t regret not picking him.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Nov 19, 2009 9:19 AM MST reply actions  

Do you think having Dragic on board made Kerr pass over him?

Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."

by rsavaj on Nov 19, 2009 9:28 AM MST up reply actions  

Yes. That's part of it.

This is like beating a dead horse. With Dragic it’s all about confidence – and the organization has invested a lot of money in him by buying out his Euro-contract and drafting another PG could have done 1 of 2 things – pushed him to work harder and earn a spot in the rotation as a back-up… or fizzle out and crash and burn with depression. The organization showed some Dragic love by drafting Earl Clark, and IMO he has reciprocated with a very strong 2nd year start to the season.

The other part of the puzzle is the fact that we drafted Earl Clark to further assuage Steve Nash’s extension. Remember? The draft was right before all the contract talks with Nash? And Nash kept talking about his worries about what direction this organization wanted to go with their personnel? Drafting a potential SF/PF “Shawn Marion” type player and getting a big man to spread the floor in Frye were 2 HUGE moves that factored into the Suns ability to keep their face of the franchise.

Do you think Nash would have signed on for another couple of years if the Suns had drafted yet another ‘future Nash replacement’…. what kind of confidence does that show to your superstar – when you’ve supposedly already dedicated the back-up position to a young Goran Dragic whom Nash has already built a relationship with and has been teaching for the past year?

When we drafted Goran a year ago and there was all the OVER-HYPE by the front office and media that the young Dragon in embryo would be the next Steve Nash – do you remember what Nash was saying? I don’t have a direct quote – but I know it was along the lines of – HEY! I’m not going anywhere! I’m still here!?!??!

So everyone can now in retrospect and after seeing the great start of Lawson sit back and say “BOO KERR IS BUM, DRAGIC AND CLARK ARE BUSTS, THE SUNS ARE DUMB” – but the truth of the matter is… we’re 12 games into the season folks. This is Dragic’s 2nd year (I would argue it’s his first REAL year) and he is showing VAST improvements and encouraging signs of future development. Clark is doing fine – EXACTLY what Alvin Gentry said he would be doing, fighting for playing time and learning and developing at Alvin’s pace – not the fans’ pace.

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 19, 2009 10:20 AM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Why

would you argue that it is his first year?

Go read a book!

by N8lol on Nov 19, 2009 10:30 AM MST up reply actions  

That’s why I capitalized REAL.

By ‘real’ I mean his first year where he is able to perform the way he was brought in to perform from the outset. When he was drafted he was praised as a PG who flourishes in an up-tempo style. This is VERY true. He is not comfortable in half court sets yet (though he’s improving). Under Porter – his game suffered, whereas when Gentry took over, the tempo increased and Dragic drastically improved.

That wasn’t the point of my post here though. The point of the post is about why we drafted Clark rather than another PG.

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 19, 2009 10:48 AM MST up reply actions  

I think it is pretty foolish

to run your FO with the number one goal is to save face. And do you really think Nash would have left if we had drafted Lawson? Personally, I don’t think any of the teams with FA money last summer had any interest in Steve.

Also, I am not saying this because of Lawson’s great start. I wanted him before. Let me put it this way. All money and saving face aside, who is the better player? No contest.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Nov 19, 2009 10:44 AM MST up reply actions  

You see it as saving face.. I see it as making the correct adjustments. We have acquired great talent and role players and made our roster a lot younger. And not only has the front office tempered a style that integrates explosive offense with grinding defense, but they have financially positioned themselves to be players in the 2010 free agency bash. Not to mention they have done exactly what they said they would do – get more financially flexible all while staying competitive. If Phoenix continues to play at a high level there is no doubt it will be a desired destination for FA’s – and I’m not really talking about the Lebrons and DWades. Why is positioning yourself to be a successful team saving face?

I don’t think any of the teams with FA money last summer had any interest in Steve.

The Knicks did. That was a real option for Nash.

It’s super cool that you’re so awesome at deciphering draft picks – but the Suns with Nash and Dragic are 10-2. To speculate anything regarding what our team would be like with Lawson is pointless. You believe there is no contest between Lawson and Dragic – I would concede that Lawson may turn out to be the better player in future, anything is possible – and though Lawson has slightly better numbers this year, there isn’t a chasm of difference between the two. Take a look.

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 19, 2009 11:17 AM MST up reply actions  

Curry

I still wonder how much the potential deal w/ GSW that would have landed Curry impacted the Clark decision.

If you remember that evening the Amare to GSW for Beidrins, Curry, etc was very real…

Do you take Lawson at 14 if you think you are about to get Curry?

Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan

by Seth Pollack on Nov 19, 2009 12:50 PM MST up reply actions  

Very good point

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 19, 2009 1:12 PM MST up reply actions  

Look at the Knicks

do you really think he wanted to go there?

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Nov 19, 2009 1:41 PM MST up reply actions  

Your statement wasn't about whether or not Steve wanted to go there..

You said you didn’t think any teams with FA money had interest in him.

Nash knew it would have been a “new project” if he were to book it to his city of residence. In interviews about why he extended with Phoenix he mentioned that he didn’t want to start a new project and he felt he had unfinished business here in the valley.

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 19, 2009 1:45 PM MST up reply actions  

Plus -

Everyone knew the Knicks would be bad this year… They are banking everything on next year’s free agency – but nobody – not even the Knicks – thought they would be this bad.

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 19, 2009 1:47 PM MST up reply actions  

My point there in saying that

was I do not think Steve could have done any better than Phoenix, all things considered. Therefore, knowing Steve was an intelligent guy and not sone immature kid like Joe Johnson, I never thought he had any real incentive to leave.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Nov 19, 2009 1:51 PM MST up reply actions  

New York would have gladly paid Steve more than the 10 and 11.6MIL he'll make next season here

But you’re right in that Steve is an intelligent guy and valued a chance at having a good team with chemistry more than $$$$. It was a steal for us. We are lucky to have a guy like Steve Nash.

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 19, 2009 1:58 PM MST up reply actions  

If I remember correctly...

…you also “wanted” Eric Maynor, and Earl Clark as well. Additionally, you said you’d be “happy” with any of the three. So make up your mind.

by Silkster on Nov 19, 2009 1:30 PM MST up reply actions  

Maynor always was my #1

I liked Lawson after that. It depended on what direction the Suns wanted to go. Check the posts. I was always for Maynor. And I was for James Johnson over Clark, if we went frontcourt.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Nov 19, 2009 1:44 PM MST up reply actions  

EC

I never really wanted Clark, but once it became clear we would draft him, I tried to convince myself that it would work. Kind of like the Shaq trade. I hated getting Shaq. But once he was here, why mope about it? It could have worked – if Shaq would have done what he promised- which was defense, rebounding, and starting the fast break. Except he demanded to be the focal point of the offense.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Nov 19, 2009 1:48 PM MST up reply actions  

Having just recently seen Lawson.......

I think he’s much better than Dragic. That’s not to say that Dragic can’t or won’t surpass him. But seeing Lawson the other night, I just think he’s playing with more confidence and at a higher level. To me, Dragic looks to shoot too much instead of being dynamic in creating opportunities for his teammates.

by Jack Frost on Nov 19, 2009 9:43 AM MST reply actions  

Dragic is not Steve Nash

he’s not a pass first PG. He’s a drive and create type, so if he has a shot, he’ll take it, if he can kick it out or hit a cutter, then he’ll do that.

by SunsFTW on Nov 19, 2009 11:42 AM MST up reply actions  

Yeah but great point guards are generally not "shoot first" guys....

And that was the point I was making those folks who are gung-ho on Dragic. If he is to become a very good PG he’ll have to change that approach.

by Jack Frost on Nov 19, 2009 1:19 PM MST up reply actions  

I totally disagree

when Dragic gets into trouble it’s b/c he’s not aggressive enough. He needs to take open looks and show that he can score or it will be too easy for teams to pressure him with the ball and ignore him without it.

He’s shooting well this year and needs to keep looking for his shot

Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan

by Seth Pollack on Nov 20, 2009 7:39 AM MST up reply actions  

I'm not saying that he shouldn't shoot....

But he is not a shooting guard. He is a pointguard. I think as a PG you have to have a different mentality. As you know Stan the pointguard’s job is to A) run the offense and B) distribute the ball. If your man backs off or if the defense collapses,by all means, then take the shot. You can even break down the D with penetration.

What I’ve noticed with Dragic is that he tends to drive and will get caught on the baseline or trapped and have nowhere to go with the ball. I think this is because when the weakside help comes over he has to make that pass to his teammate for an easy layup. I haven’t noticed him doing this. So, I am not saying he should disregard the scoring part of this game, but rather that his specific role necessitates him seeing the whole court and getting others involved. I haven’t noticed him doing this.

by Jack Frost on Nov 20, 2009 9:58 AM MST up reply actions  

I think Nash

has somewhat spoiled us as to what a PG should be.

You are right of course and Dragic can improve this part of this game but he does see the floor and pass the ball better than Barbosa already and certainly can grow in this area.

But if you watch other PG’s from around the league I think Dragic is much more in that normal mode as opposed to being at the Nash like level. Which is to be expected. He’s no Steve Nash

Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan

by Seth Pollack on Nov 20, 2009 4:19 PM MST up reply actions  

I wonder if we'll ever see as great a shooter in the NBA as Nash EVER AGAIN

just throwing that out there

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 22, 2009 10:47 PM MST up reply actions  

boy, lakers get the top slot for their 2 game losing streak..

THAT"s what we’ve been doing wrong…

and that’s to say nothing of atlanta..

by Fritzy on Nov 19, 2009 10:42 AM MST reply actions  

Joe Alexander for Alando Tucker

why not?

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Nov 19, 2009 11:07 AM MST reply actions  

Ugh

I’m logging in to make a comment for the first time in forever just to say this: PLEASE no Steve for MV3 campaign. PLEASE!

That might sound strange coming from a long-time Nash fan (some would say “Nash apologist”), but it is absolutely what’s best for this team. Right now, these guys are the kind of cohesive unit that brought the 2005-06 team within two games and two untimely injuries from making the Finals. You don’t want to mess with that, period. Making it all about Nash messes with that. It creates unnecessary resentment for at least one other player on the team who probably thinks HE is the one who got them there. This team needs to stay about TEAM—i.e., nobody is any more important than anyone else, and everyone’s contribution is vital for its success. So whenever Steve steps to the line to shoot two, feel free to cheer, clap, or just stay quiet so he can concentrate, but no “MVP!” chants for the sake of the team.

by TexSUN on Nov 19, 2009 11:10 AM MST reply actions  

Also

The argument can be made that Nash really isn’t even the MVP of the Suns this season. Unlike in the past where the team completely fell apart without him, this team seems far more balanced, and on any given night a different guy is MVP. One night it’s Hill, the next Amare, and occasionally, it’s someone unexpected off the bench like Dudley (or even Collins!). Sometimes it’s just been an all-around team effort. Yeah, the two 20-assist games so early in the year were sweet, but this team more than any in the past is all about trying to get the “W”, no matter who gets to be the star. That’s how it should stay.

by TexSUN on Nov 19, 2009 11:26 AM MST up reply actions  

I agree with you..

But no one has started any campaigns. The national media has started the whole discussion. This post actually agrees with the Basketball-Reference blog that says “the jury is out on whether [the Suns] can maintain it [their hot play]”.

Is MV3 a sweet nickname? – Yeah.
Is Nash playing at the same level as he was during his MVP years? – Heck yes.
Would the Suns be screwed if Nash went down? – More than likely
Would MV3 talks disrupt the chemistry of this team? – No. Everyone knows Nash is bomb.com.
Does Nash deserve a third MVP? – It’s 12 games into the season – why doesn’t everyone just chill a little

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 19, 2009 11:32 AM MST up reply actions  

Just nippin' it in the bud

I have to watch the Suns via NBA league pass which means I get to hear all the lovely commentary from the other team’s announcers. Lots of whining about calls that didn’t go their way (especially during the Boston game) consumes much of the banter, but then right at the start of one of the earlier games in the season, I hear “We have to start talking about Nash maybe winning his third MVP”. I sat up and said “HUH?!?! Didn’t that ship sail already?” Since then, I’ve heard it from the NBATV broadcast, one other local broadcast I think, and now the national media. I agree with almost everything you said above. Nash IS playing as well as he did in his MVP years, the nickname IS sweet, and especially that it’s WAAAAY to early to even be having this discussion. I do, however, think focusing on any one player above the others would mess with chemistry a little (it’s human nature), and while the Suns would definitely not be as good a team without Nash, I don’t think they would utterly collapse without him either. In other words, while I agree Nash is playing as well as he was in the MVP seasons, I think the team around him is better equipped to play without him if they had to. Hopefully, I won’t have to find out I’m wrong about that. :)

by TexSUN on Nov 19, 2009 11:50 AM MST up reply actions  

agreed with both of you actually...

 If nash keeps his play up throughout the season, you could make an argument that he should be in the running, but in all honesty, it would be best if you didn’t.

 Just like our pal trophyman, we’ve learned that the less distractions for this team, the better…

by Fritzy on Nov 19, 2009 12:02 PM MST up reply actions  

That was my thought -

and on the other end of it… who on the team is going to be upset that the guy putting up 20-20’s is getting some attention?

I hear you though Stan – This team is pretty good without Nash in there, so maybe the ship wouldn’t sink like I suggest.

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 19, 2009 1:20 PM MST up reply actions  

who is putting up 20-20?

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Nov 19, 2009 1:56 PM MST up reply actions  

Oh, I see

you meant Nash having some 20-20 games. I was thinking, if anyone averaged 20-20 (like Wilt did a half dozen times), he certainly should be the MVP favorite.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Nov 19, 2009 1:58 PM MST up reply actions  

Agree with Eutychus that everyone should chill out on MV3 talk....

He’s right about it only being 12 games, but more importantly our happiness as Suns fans depends on the success of the team as a whole, not just one player. At least for me it does and it should for you guys too!
 
Furthermore, I agree with the comment posted a few days ago (can’t remember by whom), that Nash will never be given a 3rd MVP Trophy without having won an NBA Championship. I think the 3 MVP class is reserved for the Magic’s , and Micheal’s of the world etc. I do think Nash is a shoo in Hall of Famer but I don’t think he would get consideration for MV3 until he has elevated himself into the class of the all time greats by winning a title.

by Jack Frost on Nov 19, 2009 1:26 PM MST up reply actions  

Jack Frost says

chill out. I get it.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Nov 19, 2009 1:59 PM MST up reply actions  

haha

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 19, 2009 2:00 PM MST up reply actions  

By the way Hawk

I always thought your avatar was a Panda… but now that I glanced at it I see that it’s a dog hahaha!! Is that yours?

They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...

by Eutychus on Nov 19, 2009 2:01 PM MST up reply actions  

no

just came across it on the internts. I thought it was funny with the old lady butterfly glasses.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Nov 19, 2009 2:16 PM MST up reply actions  

Hello there, Tex

nice to see your handle still handling. And tossing out there great insights.

BTW, I think Nash’s best season was the 06-07 season, but the powers that be would never allow a non-champion get three in a row.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Nov 19, 2009 1:56 PM MST up reply actions  

That and...

..there’s no way the voters weren’t going to give it to the guy on the 67-win team (not possessing crystal balls to know that said 67-win team would get completely owned by the Warriors). That had the be the most embarrassing MVP ceremony ever.

I still think think the 05-06 season was Nash’s (and the team’s) best from the sheer accomplishment of getting a bunch of guys who were relatively unknowns at the time (Raja who? Boris who?) darn near to the Finals. Probably the only way he could have outdone himself the next year in the eyes of the voters would have been to get HIS team to 67 wins.

by TexSUN on Nov 20, 2009 3:31 PM MST up reply actions  

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