Trading for Championship
by perep on Dec 30, 2009 1:27 PM MST
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PrintWhile being once again one of the top notch teams in the league, I'm seeing this Suns team falling in the same situation as Coach Mike's did. Despite our bench is much, much stronger (or at least used) and the Suns are getting some good results against teams such as the Lakers, the C's and the Magic, it looks to me that in a seven-game series we would lose to just about every of them (and not only).
As always, teams like those improve their defense like hell in the playoffs, and while we may win a couple of games in the regular season but we would eventually lose a full series.
Therefore, there's one guy that, for me, could improve our chances. Caron Butler. I've heard of Wizards' intentions of blowing up the big three, and it's my opinion that we could be players in this intention.
Of course I'm happy with how the current roster is performing, but I'm also afraid that, if we get stuck between "going for title once again" and "rebuilding", we will become new Clippers (worst case scenario, although).
There is, then, one trade that might work:
Leandro Barbosa+Grant Hill for Caron Butler
We would lose some important scoring off the bench from Leandro and some leadership ability from Grant. But Caron would come. And, if we got lucky, a guy like McGuire could be involved in the trade, adding (even) more hustle and extra defense to the bench.
As for the Wizs, Leandro is far more effective than their current two-guards and Grant could provide more stability to the roster.
However it's kind of high-risk, I guess, as it would might disrupt the chemistry in this team and would also put some big pression over Frosty's shoulders.
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I’ve posted that we need to upgrade at SF, and moving Grant Hill to the bench seems unlikely, so that means if we were to upgrade then he would have to be in the deal. I don’t know how loyal the Suns feel to Grant Hill considering he chose Phoenix over many possible destinations this past off-season.
Losing Barbosa would be tough to swallow considering he along with Amar’e are the longest tenured Suns. However, it appears Barbosa’s salary is the only one that would make the trade work.
Lastly, I am a Uconn grad so of course I’m a Caron fan, but I’m not completely sold on it helping the team either. Losing Grant Hill wouldn’t hurt us at all, but now Caron would just be dipping into Dudley’s minutes, I suppose you could play them at the same time or even give J-Rich (only 31 MPG) more minutes to make up for the loss of Barbosa. But keep in mind the Suns record with and without LB this year, it’s staggering, 14-3 with him, and the balance without him. Or something like that.
So in conclusion, I don’t know.
Can't trade Grant Hill
just politically after pushing him to come back the Suns can’t turnaround and trade him to a team like the Wiz.
That’s just not going to happen
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
I agree with Stan and I don't think Caron is worth it. I take LB over Caron anyday.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
i agree
I think perep is missing the main point that hill had higher paying chances all over the league, but picked to stay with nash and the suns…that’d be just plain wrong trade hill now.
Jrich is the guy I’d want to trade..
Respectfully, no's all around...But
While being once again one of the top notch teams in the league
The Suns are not a “top notch” team in the league. Every statistic will prove that, and evidence in games proves that. I’d call us a “good” team and leave it at that.
I’m seeing this Suns team falling in the same situation as Coach Mike’s did.
You don’t clarify what you mean. I assume it’s rebounding and defense.
if we get stuck between “going for title once again” and “rebuilding”,
The Suns are not going for a title. Plain and simple. Not Nash, Kerr, Gentry or anyone else on the Suns felt this team was a title contender, and they are not this year.
If your plan is to improve the defense, Caron Butler is not your answer. Butler Is renonwn for his lack of defense. He could be an offensive upgrade over Hill, but Hill, even at 37 is a much better defender. At 6.9 rebounds a game, Butler has the numbers over Hill, but he plays more minutes, and obviously, is younger. As far as a Marionesque type of 3, Butler isn’t it.
Perhaps the return of Barbosa and Hill for Butler makes financial sense, in fact it’s nearly a yearly wash (have you been playing with the ESPN trade machine?), it puts us in a hole at the 2, forcing the Suns to play Frosty as backup 2 when he is a backup 1. Also, Nash would have a heart attack if the Suns traded Hill. Nash is happy, and playing MVP level basketball, let’s leave he and his best friends alone.
However, another thought has been going through my mind….If Kerr and Co. really thought they had a chance this year, or were one player away, why not try for McGrady? The Rockets will eat a good chunk of his salary, and if he’s healthy and “hungry” as he says, why not trade J-Rich and parts or future picks (obviously beyond next year).
Obviously it’s a pipe dream, we don’t have the parts to trade, unless you wanted to give up Clark and or Lopez (which I probably wouldn’t right now), and I highly doubt the Rockets would eat half his salary to equal J-Rich’s, we would have to take on more salary, but as I said, if he were still available….HM…Just thinking out loud.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Dec 31, 2009 8:19 AM MST up reply actions
Interesting...
I thought about McGrady too but honestly, I dont think we are getting much more with McGrady than with JRich and are taking on a ton of salary which we dont want. McGrady will want to go to a team where he can play a ton of minutes and be one of the main parts of the offense. In PHX he would take a back seat to Nash and Amare and be perhaps on par with Frye.
Moreover, we really dont need a change at the SG position. We are pretty stacked as it is. What we need is a solid big man to rebound. Right now we have a great team that is playing well with what it has. I dont want to meddle with a good thing unless we have to.
Go read a book!
When he's healthy.
IF he ever gets healthy again.
Bright Side of the Sun, where Suns basketball never looked so good.
by Trevor Paxton on Jan 2, 2010 1:42 AM MST up reply actions
Exactly right...
I would feel rotten to the core if we traded Grant. That would be totally underhanded so I cant really support any trade that involves him in it.
Go read a book!
When I say the Suns are ‘top notch’ I’m talking about record and performances. As for me being in the top 8 is ‘top notch’.
With
I’m seeing this Suns team falling in the same situation as Coach Mike’s did.
I meant wining lots of games in the regular season but losing to those Lakers/Spurs/wtv teams that appear in the playoffs. My plan isn’t improving defense. Is improving the team’s overall quality. I think Caron is the best Was player. He’s just getting impaired by the lack of organisation, the ballhogging from both Arenas and Jamison and the bad chemistry around there. He’s championship supporting cast material.
Yes, the Hill situation is the ‘hardest’ thing to me as well. However, couldn’t we give the Wizs some cash in order for them to buy him out and then get him back here? They might be interested in that as well, and Grant, I think, would sacrifice himself to help the team.
Overall it’s just me dreaming out loud. I would also be more into trading JRich, but with his contract…
The question
really is what is stopping the Suns from being a contender. What areas of the game. What roster holes.
I am totally against any trades at this point but if we are going to play this game then we should be looking to make trades that would “put us over the top” and that’s not on the wings.
Where the Suns get killed is in the paint and on the boards (sound familiar?). Last time they tried to fix this it was with Shaq and that didn’t work so good.
The only guy I can think of that would have the most impact on both those areas would be Noah. Would the Bulls take LB for Noah? Who knows. But looks at the Bulls offense. They suck. What happens when you put Noah on the floor for big minutes with Steve and Amare? You clog up the lane again and the hummingbird goes back in the bag.
The reality is that as long as Steve is here and playing like he is the Suns are going to trade defense and rebounding for spacing and offense. That was what they signed up for when they made Nash the face of the franchise and resigned him for two extra years.
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Seth Pollack on Dec 31, 2009 9:32 AM MST up reply actions
and btw
speaking of rebounding and defensive big men…we do have Robin Lopez. He’s played well in the last few games. They are running pick and rolls with him and getting him involved in the offense as well.
Lets see how he develops before we give up a valuable player to replace what he might be able to bring. Look at his brother. I still think Robin has that same potential even if it takes him a bit longer to reach it given his fewer opportunities. Brook was starting on a bad team as a rookie and has longed a ton more time. Can’t discount that.
and who knows, Earl Clark could find his way before the season is over
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Seth Pollack on Dec 31, 2009 9:36 AM MST up reply actions
i support this comment, well said
Robin does not look lost anymore, hopefully Earl puts it together
Too soon
to put all our hopes in either kid but but also too soon to pull the plug and move a guy like LB to fill that need
Plus – if the Suns traded a key player like LB, I really do think Nash would fold up his tent. He was pretty upset about Tucker leaving just b/c of their friendship and Nash understands that was done to help Tucker get minutes.
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Seth Pollack on Dec 31, 2009 10:25 AM MST up reply actions
I agree
This offseason I remember speculating on which centers would be a great fit with Amar’e/Nash, and the list included players that spaced the floor offensively and rebounded defensively. Camby and Rasheed are 2 players that come to mind.
And now, if you think about it, did we get the best player to fit that mold? Channing Frye? He clearly spreads the floor even better than the aforementioned two above. And you can see that he is becoming a better big man defensively. He’s still young and was stuck deep on a couple NBA benches after his rookie season. Just observing his growth from the start of the season to this point, you can see that he has made progress.
I’m not sure we could find a better player to fit the role we need to play alongside Amar’e/Nash.
Alot of wisdom in this comment.....
I think it is true that having Nash as the face of the team implies as you say that the Suns are
going to trade defense and rebounding for spacing and offense
I think that’s very well said. I think the Shaq experiment showed us a few things; among those was that having a dominant center would help us beat teams like Boston (last years game in Phoenix where we beat a healthy Celtics team primarily due to Shaq’s presence in the middle), but it would also hurt us in obvious ways. Our offense became stagnant and Nash’s fangs were pulled (nod to Jeff Tweedy there…) by Shaq’s presence. I think that is pretty apparent when we compare Nash last year to Nash this year.
Most important I’m glad that you mentioned the need to look forward and ahead:
….if we are going to play this game we should be looking to make trades that would “put us over the top”…..
Those are my sentiments exactly. I don’t want to pick on Channing Frye, but I think a more athletic big man who is a natural shot blocker would be the kind of player who could put the Suns “over the top.”
I know it could never happen, but if we had a magic wand and could swap Channing Frye for Kevin Garnet I think this Suns team wins the Championship. Since we could not and would not ever get Garnet we have to think who the closest approximation of that. Someone a few weeks back mentioned Gerald Wallace. I think Camby would be the ideal acquisition. We would instantly become a much better defensive squad and that without sacrificing our offensive identity like we did with Shaq. I think Marcus Camby would fit in nicely with our wing players etc. His shot blocking would give us a whole new dimension. Problem is, how could we realistically get a player like Camby without having to give up Nash, Amare or JRich ?
In short, we need our version of a gift-wrapped Pau Gasol acquisition.
Maybe it's just me,
but I don’t think that you CAN play defense and rebound like the Spurs and Lakers with the type of offense that we run. It just isn’t possible in my opinion. Just like the Colts in the NFL. When one side of the ball is so dominant, the other side of the ball suffers. The Suns are at thier best when they are running up and down the floor jacking up shots as quickly as they can. They are even better when the opposing team tries to beat them at that game as well. This is not a team built on half court sets and driving it to the rim. When speed and range is your best weapon your not going to be able to rebound and play defense at an elite level too. It’s impossible. When you run and shoot as quickly as we like to, then your players aren’t making it into the paint as often. Your players are at the wings heading back up court when the shot goes up. It’s hard to explain without turning this into a much longer post. It’s just not possible to play great offense and great defense. Even the Lakers. who I hate to admit have the most talent, don’t/can’t do it. In sports, everything is a trade off. We chose run and gun exciting offense. You can’t have both. It just doesn’t work that way.
On another note. Shawn Marion screwed us out of Kevin Garnett. He didn’t want to play for Boston. That was the end of that.
Wil, why so pessimistic? This team is pretty good. They aren’t as talented as say the Lakers or Celtics(when healthy) or whoever it is you say is a contender. But what they are lacking in talent they are making up for in chemistry. I’m not going to say I expect them to win the title but anything is possible at this point. They are 4 or 5 in the West. That is top notch. To completely write them off at this point is not fair and frankly not being a very good fan. I can understand being realistic. As a fan your supposed to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. That should be reflected in how you speak about them, especially to other fans. The Suns winning it all this year is a long shot sure, but I would give them just as much of a chance as any other team that didn’t make the Finals last year.
I just hope we can stop all this nonsense about trades and needing this and that. This is the team we have. It’s a pretty damn good one. Be happy you don’t live in Sacramento or Oakland or New Jersey. Support what you have. They play hard for you. Cheer hard for them.
by NSU Stud on Jan 1, 2010 11:05 PM MST reply actions 2 recs
One more thing.
You guys are constantly trying to get rid of JRich. If you don’t like Jason what on earth would you want with TMac? I like McGrady but he is not going to bring anything to this team. TMac needs to go to Minnesota or New Jersey. They need him. We don’t.
by NSU Stud on Jan 1, 2010 11:10 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
I agree.
One thing that makes me happy about having JRich on our team is the fact that lately, his hand has been bothering him, but he’s not been worried about it. He’s playing defense, not taking very many shots, and not trying to get himself 100% involved in the offensive scheme. If he has a tough defensive assignment, it appears that he’s going to go at the defense first, and let the offense come secondary.
How many natural scorers/team leaders (i.e. the best player on a less than amazing team, i.e. the Bobcats, the Warriors [who he and Baron carried], etc.) are willing to give up their title and what made them their fat paychecks, just to try and help their new team win?
I know Rich is locked in for another year or two on his current (lucrative) contract, but still, one has to imagine that his contract will be more around $8-9mil when it comes time for a new one. That’s sacrifice right there, and that’s what I love about this team. Everyone knows that they have their weaknesses (Channing with rebounding, Amare with defense, Dragic with confidence, etc.), but the whole team seems to have caught fire and are willing to do what they can to win. Will they win it all? Almost assuredly not. But this is the reason I love Suns basketball.
Bright Side of the Sun, where Suns basketball never looked so good.
by Trevor Paxton on Jan 2, 2010 1:53 AM MST up reply actions
This is what I don't understand.
This is what you love about Suns basketball? Not having a shot at winning a title?
It kills me that the Suns weren’t the first AZ team to win a title. It kills me that the Rattlers were the first “pro sports team” to win a title. That the D-Backs existed for 5 years and got one. That our WNBA counterpart, again around for less than ten years, has two titles.
You know why? Because at least they had the balls to go for it. The Rattlers, D-Backs and Mercury went all out – throwing money everywhere, getting whoever they could. The Shaq trade may not have worked out, technically, but it was the right move because at least Kerr was taking a shot. It didn’t work, so now he’s scared, and is playing it safe. To paraphrase General Patton- “I wouldn’t give a hoot in hell for a man who fell short and laughed about it.”
I don't get it
Maybe it’s late and I’m tired, what does "I wouldn’t give a hoot in hell for a man who fell short and laughed about it." mean? Is he saying to take chances or not?
So...
Your comparing the Rattlers and Mercury to the Suns? The WNBA and Arena football are nowhere near what the NBA is. Neither in prestige or competition. I don’t care if the Mercury have 10 titles before the Suns get one. They are still playing WOMEN’s basketball. That’s like saying your “Special” little brother is a better athlete because he has a gold medal in the softball throw and you don’t.
Now the D-Backs are a good point but, as anyone knows, baseball is all about pitching. We simply had the best that year. The end.
Pump the brakes, man.
I was at the final game of the WNBA championship, and I’ll be damned if I say that they don’t compete as well as men do. I’m not trying to be PC or anything, but holy cow, those girls can play.
And, why did you have to make the “special” reference? It wasn’t necessary at all. I work with mentally handicapped people, and while I don’t take offense to it, necessarily, I still think it could have been avoided.
Bright Side of the Sun, where Suns basketball never looked so good.
by Trevor Paxton on Jan 6, 2010 2:26 AM MST up reply actions
I don't see the problem in what I said.
“Special” IS the PC way of saying that. And yes, the women play hard. But they are not the caliber of athletes that the men in the NBA are. So the reference is very relevant. It’s apples and oranges. If you want to compare the Lakers and Clippers, fine. But holding the Suns up against something like Arena football and the WNBA is not right. The competition level is far less. Period. Less teams. Inferior athletes. I’m a Thunder fan also but I’m not going to say the 66ers(D-League) are better if they win thier league before the Thunder do.
Please save the “I work with hadicapped people” crap. We all know or work with or have been involved in some way with handicapped people. If it wasn’t offensive then why bring it up as if it was? That comment made my point. Clearly. That’s why I had to say it. The point was you can’t compare greater success at a lesser level equally. Sheesh.
I didn't say I was offended.
I just meant that it could have been avoided altogether. Leaving it at “They are still playing WOMEN’s basketball” would have made your point just as clear.
And, as far as the talent level goes, I’ll agree with you. Arena football is not what the NFL is. The talent level isn’t even close. And as for the WNBA, sure, they don’t have the high flyers or physicality as men. But…the Suns are in the NBA, and the talent and competition there is the same as the talent and competition in any other sport.
The competition is even across the board in the WNBA. They might not be as talented as athletes, but every team has the same chance to win it all. Just as any team in the NBA has the chance, at any given point, to win it all. I know there are teams that are better assembled, etc., but if Charlotte landed LeBron (somehow) and added a few solid pieces, they could make a run for the championship.
I’m not excusing the Suns’ “failures” (if you can call them that) over the past few years. We’ve come within spitting distance of the finals, and while it pains me that we never got there, we just had some bad breaks. Bad breaks, and teams that prepared for us better than we prepared for them. So, yes, I agree. The talent level in “lesser” leagues (like the WNBA, Arena football, etc.) is less than that of it’s bigger, stronger, older siblings. But, to say, “the Mercury had an easier shot at a title because the talent in the WNBA is a joke” (paraphrasing) is just plain incorrect.
Bright Side of the Sun, where Suns basketball never looked so good.
by Trevor Paxton on Jan 8, 2010 1:38 AM MST up reply actions
I'm not trying to "start" anything.
And I’m not offended. Just needed a fairly long winded response so I could make myself more clear. It’s likely just a difference in opinions, which is fine and dandy. I just hope you don’t take this as me trying to start internet fighting. Which is useless and pointless, anyway. Haha.
Bright Side of the Sun, where Suns basketball never looked so good.
by Trevor Paxton on Jan 8, 2010 1:41 AM MST up reply actions
And, the point I was trying to make is:
Not having a shot at winning a title isn’t what I love about Suns basketball. I would absolutely make a trade that I think could set us up for years of success.
But, while we’re on the ride, we might as well enjoy it. No use in being overly pessimistic about things…even though it’s SO easy to do. Haha.
Bright Side of the Sun, where Suns basketball never looked so good.
by Trevor Paxton on Jan 6, 2010 2:28 AM MST up reply actions
If we were to make a trade I think we should try to get Marcus Camby he is a shot blocker and rebounder and can make an open shot….Also we should give Earl Clark some playing time he is 6’10 and can do a lot defensively if we were to develop Clark we would match up well against the lakers and other teams because we’d have the option to start three players 6’10 and above..He can play positions 2-4 maybe even 5 in our system
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