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Building the perfect run and gun team

The Phoenix Suns under new (old) coach Alvin Gentry literally pulled out the 06-07 playbook and have gone back to their running and gunning ways. I have argued in these pages that this Suns squad is not constructed to maximize that system and there are flaws that will be exposed in the final weeks of the season.

This begs the question, can a run and gun team win the Larry O'Brien trophy and what would it take to get there? I believe it is possible to win playing this way but like any winning system it takes time to assemble the right pieces and that takes an unwavering commitment from the top.

The Suns over the past year have not shown that consistency of vision and as a result have ended up in no-man's-land. It is yet to be seen if a return to the old style will, in fact, rejuvenate the team as indicated by the three 140-point blowout victories, or if the 20-point loss to the Celtics is more indicative of what's to come.

One thing is certain: this off-season, the Suns will have a decision to make about what direction they are going and hopefully will stick with it for longer than 51 games.

History points us in the direction of winning teams and, while most have played a traditional style on the court, all have been consistent and patient in building their teams over time.

 

 

Star-divide

Know who you are and who you want to be

No team is perfectly built for the system they want to run and the good teams adapt their systems for their best players. All the great teams though have a philosophy and they know what their vision of perfection is and every roster move they make is driven by that. They may never reach roster nirvana but they are not distracted from their course and they avoid long-term and/or very large contracts for players that don't fit.Kscawtwine2_medium

Some notable examples are Cleveland, San Antonio and the LA Lakers.  All of these successful teams had a clear vision and a single-minded determination to build their team to reach it. They were also patient, something the Suns have not been over the past 5 years.

Jim Collins, one of my favorite strategy gurus, calls it the BHAG, which stands for Big Hairy Audacious Goal (and who said strategy gurus don't have a sense of humor).

The basic idea, like most great ideas, is very simple. Define your version of perfection and always be driving towards it. You may not reach it any time soon. You might zig and zag a little bit but if you understand what your white whale in the distance looks like, you won't get distracted by huge balls of yarn along the way.

The perfect run and gun roster

After this season, the Suns leadership has a big decision to make. They must finally decide what kind of team they want to be. The run and gun can win and is certainly the most fan-friendly style of basketball. But like all the other great teams, it takes commitment and consistency.

For example, if the Suns in this past off-season were committed to playing the way they have been since Terry Porter's dismissal, they should have drafted Mario Chalmers or Marreese Speights and not Robin Lopez.

I don't know if going "all in" on the run and gun is the right move. I have my doubts, given Steve Nash's age and contract. If the Suns do choose this direction this is what would their BHAG might look like:

Point Guard - It all starts with the point guard and we've been fortunate to have one of the best ever in this system. A running team must have a great point guard to keep the offense flowing and push the ball. Speed, passing, shooting. All of it.

Given that this is the most important position in an up tempo style, you must also have a very good backup -- someone like a Beno Udrih, who has struggled as a starter but would have been a very good back-up in Phoenix.

The dependence on the point guard to run the attack and wreck havoc on the defense is both a key component and a vulnerability of this system. When the PG goes down, the system grinds to a halt.

The Suns are at a critical juncture with this position. Steve Nash has a player option for next season which he is likely to exercise, but the ball is in his court. He could decide to move on as a free agent or he could opt out and re-sign in Phoenix for less money, giving the team more flexibility to bring in a back-up. 

If he chooses the likely route and stays on his current contract, the Suns will have to seriously consider moving team and fan favorite Leandro Barbosa in order to cut salary. Leandro is a great player, but not a great point guard. Rookie Goran Dragic might surprise us and prove ready for the role next season but there's been little evidence of that so far.

I like that he's finally getting consistent minutes under Gentry so he can gain the experience he needs and the team can learn more about what they have.

Wings - At the NBA level, this is the easiest position to fill and create depth. Unless you are fortunate enough to have a top player at this position like Kobe, Melo or D-Wade, I do not like seeing teams allocate max salaries to shooting guards and small forwards.

In the run and gun, these are the positions where you need solid perimeter defenders who can hit a spot-up three. A mix of guys like Mickael Pietrus, Trevor Ariza, Eric Gordon and Rudy Fernandez make for great depth and, if possible, you also look for a pure scoring guard like Leandro Barbosa or Jerryd Bayless who can run like the wind and be that extra spark in the open court.

You only need one "star" caliber player, such as a Joe Johnson or Richard Jefferson on your roster on the wing. A perfect pairing would have one lock-down defender in the starting rotation with a great scorer who can create his own shot in isolation. Too many shooters and you lose your defensive effort.

Barbosa and Richardson are both under contract for several more years and Grant Hill has signaled his intent to return (although I would suspect that he might not if Shaq gets moved). As we've discussed, there is simply not enough money to go around for Nash, Amare, Shaq, Barbosa and Richardson. Those 5 guys alone combine for $70m which is about where the luxury tax line is expected to be, which leaves nothing for the other 8 players the team will need to sign and stay under the tax line.

One of those five will be not be a Sun next season and Barbosa's contract is by far the most tradable and, since he and Richardson play the same position, it is safe to assume one of those two won't be back -- if the Suns keep Amare, Shaq and Nash, that is.

Power Forward / Center - In your big men, you need a combination of guys that can all run the floor and finish but also some that can step out and shoot and some that can rebound, block shots and give you some low post offense.

The key again is a mix of a defensive and offensive players together at the PF / C position. One should be a great rebounder that can score on put backs like Andris Biedrins, while the other is a big that can spread the floor a bit like LaMarcus Aldridge.

Behind that, a mix of backups with specialized skills like Anderson Varejao and Channing Frye, along with a reserve big body that is still mobile, like Jeff Foster.

It goes without saying that Shaq is not a good fit in this system. There is an attempt to spin this otherwise but he simply will not be able to maintain an effective level of play at the pace the Suns are currently running. I suspect we will be hearing from him soon enough on this topic.

Obviously, the decision to extend and build the front court around Amare or trade him to the highest bidder is going to be the number one topic of conversation this summer. I don't see this decision as much about the system as about Amare himself. I won't rehash all the arguments here, but Amare is a guy that is a proven fit in the up tempo system. If you could extend him for a reasonable salary so that you have enough cap space for other great players, then you do it. If he demands the max (as he likely will), you really are left with a dilemma.

If the Suns end up keeping Amare for the long term, then the next big man decision is key. There is still hope that Robin Lopez can grow into that guy. He has good size, defensive quickness, a great nose for shot blocking and he can score in the paint. He is young and raw and needs floor time.

Unlike Dragic, the Suns aren't giving Lopez the minutes now he needs to develop his game. Given how important this position is going to be for the future of the Suns, he should be getting more of the minutes that are going to Barnes, Dudley and Amundson.

Depth and Defense - The run and gun is designed to put up big numbers and tire the opponent into taking poor shots. It will work in the play-offs when the game slows but only if there is enough balance, depth and size on the roster to keep up the pace and if guys are able and willing to play defense.

Offense is the best defense is fine but offense can't be the only defense.

Superstars - All championship teams have superstars but there are only so many of those to go around. The Suns were fortunate to have both Nash and Amare, and surrounded them with a lot of talent.

The Suns biggest shortcomings were the lack of a back-up PG and a mobile defensive center. As close as the Suns came to winning it all, those few pieces would have pushed them over the hump.

Moving forward, who is that next superstar going to be? After 2010 when Nash and Shaq are projected to be gone, that remains a very open question.

The Suns' next moves - The specifics of the individual moves are less important than the big decision this team must make. One would hope that soon after the season, the "head shed' will meet around the pool and make a long term commitment to what direction they are going. Every move from that point forward should come from that.

This is an important off-season for the Suns and, while you don't want to give up on the current season while only a few games out of the money, it is not too soon to be thinking about what comes next. Great leaders are always looking over the horizon and using what they see and the direction they want to go to guide the day-to-day decisions.

 

[Note by Phoenix Stan, 02/23/09 2:49 PM MST ]

Correction: In this post I incorrectly stated that Steve Nash has a player option for next year. He in fact has a team option for the 2009/2010 season.

 

 

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Sad but true

this team is made up of pieces that just don’t fit with each other. I think we should start calling Kerr “Dr. Frankenstein”. Yes it’s alive, but should it be? Your call for patience is a point well made, but the guys at the top act too impulsive and flighty for patience to win out.

by Diosnomeama on Feb 23, 2009 9:48 AM MST reply actions  

They havn't learned.

We have been doing this for 33 years… And they still havn’t learned. I don’t know if you took a look at my reply earlier in this Post but 33 years only missing 6 playoffs and we still “think” we know what it takes to get there.

This was a good read and and all seems very true for the future.

I have kept up hope but as I have posted before this team cannot go all the way. These pieces while good in some aspects are not good in all aspects and that is what it takes to overcome the adversity of what the NBA calls its playoffs.

You get an A+ for this one :) heh.

" I'm going to root for the Suns when they are winnings, and blame failing economy on the referees when they are losing."- Me.

by antiw0rm on Feb 23, 2009 10:12 AM MST reply actions  

The NBA is the hardest league to win a championship in...

How many total teams have won it? I would bet it’s less than a third. LA, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, San Antonio, Houston, Philly, Golden State. I’m forgetting a few, but as you can see it is extremely hard to win it all

by Funky Flapsack on Feb 23, 2009 12:09 PM MST up reply actions  

Telling stat

New York (x2), Washington, Seattle, Portland, Milwaukee – notice these teams were all in the run-and gun ’70s, a decade whjere the league averaged almost 110 ppg, and for 6 years the ABA provided competition for players. One could say the run and gun gives everyone a chance.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Feb 24, 2009 3:37 PM MST up reply actions  

Is Nash's window closed as a Sun?

Nash is my favorite player in the NBA. I like him better than Lebron and Kobe and D-Wade. I think maybe it’s because what he does with the ball relies less on sheer physical gift and more on years of gym rat devotion and court intelligence.

At Nash’s age, he’s at the very tail end of high effectiveness in the tempo he loves. His body just won’t hold up for more than another year or two at the high level needed to be a champion. Sure, he might be able to contribute, but not at an MVP level.

If we commit to run and gun long term (which frankly I’d love to see happen), that means we probably need to keep Amare as the primary finisher. What do we long term about the point guard position though? Nash was clearly the best fit at the position over the last several years, and may be the best at that role today, but over the next couple of years his health & age will catch up to him making him less effective. Who is the ideal up and coming point guard for a run-gun? Devin Harris? Rajan Rondo? I do know we would need to be on the lookout for how we acquire that guy. Kind of unfortunate that two of the ideal players for the system were piddled away (Rondo and Fernandez) due to lack of long term vision.

Since Kerr & Co. (going back to El Mustachio GM days) have done a poor job of putting long term puzzle pieces around the Nash-Amare core, we have lacked the stability that has produced most championship level teams. I don’t think a bunch of shake it up trades this summer is going to magically land us with the right group of guys next year either, although I am an eternal optimist about that.

And so the question for me is: will Nash ever win a championship as a Sun? Or in other words, can the Suns put together a group over the next two years that could win a championship under the run and gun system? I don’t think Nash can win a championship in any other system, and so we’d have to stick to that system and build around Nash Amare, or we blow it up and say we’re going to change identity and so we’re going to find a different kind of point guard that is a better defender, etc.

by tptman on Feb 23, 2009 10:50 AM MST reply actions  

Do we care about defense at the PG spot in Run and Gun The Sequel?

If not, then I say one guy the Suns could realistically acquire that might do well in a run-and-gun type system would be Sergio Rodriguez of the Trailblazers. (Yes, the same one we traded as a draft pick in that same year we also traded Rondo’s pick). He’s one guy I think (a) the Suns could get and (b) would really benefit under Nash’s tutelage and end up a lot better than he is today. At the very least, he’d make a serviceable backup to Nash. Of course, I’d love to have any of Jose Calderon, Rondo, Fernandez, Chris Paul (yeah, right) etc., but I don’t think those are guys the Suns can realistically acquire.

Sadly, unless the Suns can find a way to undo the Shaq trade and get back the type of center they should have gotten for Marion to begin with, I think Nash has a better chance of winning a ring as the veteran presence on an up-and-coming squad like the Trailblazers than he does as a Sun. (And as long as Shaq is on the team, the Suns have a better chance of winning the ring with a more defensive-talented point guard who thrives in the half court).

by TexSUN on Feb 23, 2009 11:11 AM MST up reply actions  

Here's the thing...

there’s no guarantee that either Sergio or Rajan would have matured in the same way under the Phoenix system, the way they did in Portland & Boston.

Rajan, in particular, has benefited in a major way from having 3 legitimate superstar players on the court with him.

One of the Suns organization’s deficiencies, imho, is their inability to develop young players. You only have to look at Robin Lopez, and compare him to his twin, to see the difference.

I’d even go as far to say that Amare would have been a much better player, if he’d gone through an apprenticeship with a good veteran, instead of trying to be the man before he was ready. Amare’s deficiencies, as a player, are all due to a lack of tutelage and discipline. Imagine how good he would have been, if he’d been forced to understudy someone like Karl Malone.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Feb 23, 2009 11:36 AM MST up reply actions  

Watching

Karl Malone tutor Amare would be one of the most brutal, beautiful things to see in the NBA. I think Amare would probably show up to more than one press conference sporting a black eye.

by Diosnomeama on Feb 23, 2009 11:48 AM MST up reply actions  

Allen a superstar?

I don’t konw if he’s in the same lofty stratosphere and Pierce and Garnett.

What if Rondo got PT with Amare and Marion? There have also been some good rotation players he may have spent time with.

Rondo’s growth would’ve been stunted by D’Antoni. I don’t know that Boston’s “superstars” helped him along more than Doc Rivers’ coaching (which is more of a college-encouraging-type-thing than evil-genius-Jackson-or-Popovich-type-thing).

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on Feb 23, 2009 10:11 PM MST up reply actions  

C'mon... Ray Allen is the current heavyweight "best shooter in the NBA" titleholder

I mean, I think people tend to think of him in that light. Moreover, he was certainly his teams’ star player in Seattle and Milwaukee.

Either way, even if it’s 2 & 3/4 superstars, Rondo had the luxury of playing in a system where he was, at best, the #4 option, giving him the opportunity to mature without the pressure & spotlight that follows someone like Kevin Durant, for example. That, and the peer pressure that comes from being on the same team as those guys, as opposed to being on the Jailblazer’s roster.

Playing as a rookie with Amare, imho, would not have helped Rondo’s development anywhere as much, just because Amare is so self-centered.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Feb 24, 2009 12:31 AM MST up reply actions  

The Team's Star in Minnesota?

My point is that I think it’s more of the coaching than the players around him.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on Feb 24, 2009 9:07 AM MST up reply actions  

Minnesota ??

Ray Allen has played for the Bucks, Sonics & Celtics

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Feb 24, 2009 9:41 AM MST up reply actions  

Yeah, but

I was trying to minimize the quality of your observation by making fun of the Bucks.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on Feb 24, 2009 1:01 PM MST up reply actions  

Damn!

Bucks … Wolves

Midwest teams that start with an “M”

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on Feb 24, 2009 1:05 PM MST up reply actions  

It's easy to get confused..

between Minnesota & Wisconsin..

The company I used to work for has a facility where half of it is in one state, and the rest in the other. And the locals used to get pissed when I mixed up the two.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Feb 24, 2009 3:04 PM MST up reply actions  

Allen

was drafted by the Wolves and traded on draft night to Milwaukee for Stephon Marbury. Perhaps that is why you thought he played for Minnesota.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Feb 24, 2009 3:49 PM MST up reply actions  

Sergio would be much better in PHX

Portland plays the slowest pace in the league, Sergio would thrive in a system where he can make turnovers trying fancy passes.

(p.s. Its Rajon)

Karma

by Sabonis4Ever on Feb 23, 2009 11:57 PM MST up reply actions  

I wasn't sure about the spelling..

I just followed tptman’s lead on that one.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Feb 24, 2009 12:32 AM MST up reply actions  

When

Shaq leaves the house then the real rebuilding begins. He is a huge piece to the puzzle or a piece that needs to be removed if this team wants to go quick. ( sorry TexSun just read your post and I agree)
 The problem is the key piece to run the engine is Nash and he can’t guard anyone. They need to keep draft picks, even though they don’t have a 2010 No.. This team needs to go young, not Dudley, not Tucker, not Dragic and not Lopez. I just don’t see those players being a intergal part of a successful team.
 This ride won’t get smooth for a few years. We all need patience, especially Sarver and Kerr and good luck with that.

"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"

by Grockcubs on Feb 23, 2009 11:34 AM MST reply actions  

Are you sure

Nash has a play option for next season? From all I’ve heard it’sa team option.

It’s possible (if we phail this year) that Sarver doesn’t pick up Steve’s option for next season to avoid the tax, then have a lame duck season, trade The Big Expiring Contract, and build for the future.

Actually, I’d prefer that happen than Suns giving away Barbosa (maybe with another two #1’s like they did with Kurt Thomas).

And the more I think about it as I’m writing it, I’m HOPING, for the Suns’ futures’ sake and the hope that Nash will win a championship in his career, that he leaves after this season. Nash signs anywhere he wants and we do whatever we have to do to rebuild. We can’t pretend that we can do something to going back to being a contending team next year. We just can’t.

by gadogry on Feb 23, 2009 12:09 PM MST reply actions  

Partially guaranteed team option...

…as far as I know. So, if the Suns don’t pick up his option, they still have to pay him for part of the season, but would still save money most likely, depending on who else they picked up. However, it seems at this time a foregone conclusion that they’ll pick up his option (word seems to be they even want to talk extension). But we all know how things can change…

by TexSUN on Feb 23, 2009 12:12 PM MST up reply actions  

That said...

…should Nash politely request that the Suns not pick up the option in exchange for Nash walking away without obligating the Suns to pay him the partial guarantee, I suspect they’d do it out of respect for what he’s done for this team, and to instantly solve the cap space issue. (Not to mention giving the team a steady boost in the direction of Kerr’s preferred style of play)

by TexSUN on Feb 23, 2009 12:16 PM MST up reply actions  

Does anyone know how much

the partial guarantee is worth. And how much gets covered by another team, in the event that Steve Nash signs with one.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Feb 23, 2009 12:34 PM MST up reply actions  

No more run and gun.

It seems to me that Kerr’s philosophy is not going to involve re-making a run and fun squad. He was Bull and a Spur and I think we’ll see him try and move the team in that direction during the off-season. If that is the case, then I would think he would build the next iteration of the Suns around a core of Amare Stoudemire, Jason Richardson and Leandro Barbosa. Steve Nash, Grant Hill and Shaquille O’Neal are just too old to think about long term.

Obviously, this opens up glaring holes at the point and center positions. I think it’s going to be a busy off-season for the Suns. I do think there’s a place for Barbosa in the Spurs model as a Manu Ginobili type sparkplug/scoring machine.

And yes, I realize I’m basically advocating a blow-up of the Suns, but as I said in another post, only a miracle will prevent things from getting worse before they get better.

by Mike Lisboa on Feb 23, 2009 12:27 PM MST reply actions  

2010

Phoenix is said to NOT be a destination spot for free agents. Maybe not now, but i think it’s possible to become that city. Major sports markets like LA and New York aside, what draws free agents to a basketball team? The willingness to put a winning product on the court. So if this team shows some initiative, like resigning Amare to a long term deal, then i think we have the chance to get one of these high-profile players.

No one seems to notice, but LB has become a very dangerous combo guard. As Eddie Johnson pointed out, he doesn’t put his head down when he drives to the basket anymore, which has made his decision making around the hoop so much better. So, i think if we CAN blow this up by ridding the payroll of Nash and Shaq, then we can start LB at the point, and J-Rich at the 2. Then we fit in some role players into the SF and C positions. Maybe that makes us somewhat competitive. Then if we show we’re willing to spend some cash, we may be able to intice a star to come play alongside Amare, LB, and J-Rich.

by Funky Flapsack on Feb 23, 2009 1:19 PM MST reply actions  

Amare

Is an interesting question.

Is re-signing him going to show that the Suns want to win or show the management continues to be foolhardy with its money? He’s going to want a max deal (starting just south of $20M and increasing every year), but is he worth a max contract? I say “no” — he’s worth a ton but not that much. If the Suns don’t offer him a max deal out of the gate, is he going to pull a Marion?

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on Feb 23, 2009 10:15 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm done with run and gun

You can win a lot of games with that system, but I don’t see any evidence that you can win a championship. The Suns haven’t even come close. So, if our choice is between a very entertaining brand of ball that won’t take us to the promised land, and a boring brand of ball that gives us a legitimate shot at a championship, I will take the latter. I’ve got plenty of patience for a long-term project: a team that sucks today but will be better next year, and better the year after that, and might have a strong playoff run the year after that. I don’t really care to watch a team that is fun and successful during the regular season but gets dismissed in the playoffs every year well short of serious championship contention.

by beatcal on Feb 23, 2009 1:34 PM MST reply actions  

I doubt

that Spurs or Celtics fans think that their teams are boring. If you win, then you’re entertaining. No matter what brand of basketball you’re playing

by Funky Flapsack on Feb 23, 2009 2:10 PM MST up reply actions  

Sorry to beat a dead horse

 but the run and gun can win, and would have won if we didn’t tinker with it. If we hold on to JJ, draft Iggy or Deng instead of signing Q, drafted Rondo, and kept Steven Hunter, that team would have grown into a tough championship group. It is not the run and gun that is flawed, it is the Suns’ front office that can’t stop tweaking.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Feb 24, 2009 3:54 PM MST up reply actions  

I don’t care which direction the Suns go in, but I do want to see a commitment to that direction, and evidence of a master plan. This mish-mash bullcrap has to go.

by jburning on Feb 23, 2009 1:43 PM MST reply actions  

Excellent post by the way

I do agree with Stan’s thesis that a Run and Gun type offense can win with the right pieces and commitment to defense and rebounding in place. I don’t think that’s what’s in the cards for the Suns, but I think we’ll see an up-tempo championship winner in the not-too-distant future from some enterprising franchise.

by Mike Lisboa on Feb 23, 2009 1:53 PM MST reply actions  

On a completely deviant path......

I was connecting through Phoenix airport today and guess who I ran into?

Courtney Sims!!!

Any idea why he was going through security check (without a first class ticket) at Phoenix airport alone? Has he been cut by the Suns already?

Whats up doc?

by RottPhiler on Feb 23, 2009 2:24 PM MST reply actions  

I think he was on a 10 day

that was signed on Feb 13, so his 10 day was up, but I was sure they’d sign him for longer.

by tptman on Feb 23, 2009 5:45 PM MST up reply actions  

Nope

Released back to Iowa. Sounds like the Suns will wait 2 more weeks and then sign someone else to a 10 day…

I mean why would they want a guy that can rebound, block shots and shoot the ball

by Seth Pollack on Feb 23, 2009 6:46 PM MST up reply actions  

PStan

Please find out for us why the team didn’t give Sims a chance. I would have loved to see Courtney in one of those 140 point games. Surely he wasn’t as bad as Lopez.

April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?

by Hawk42 on Feb 24, 2009 4:37 PM MST up reply actions  

I know this has been beaten to death BUT...

I just don’t understand why anyone in their right mind, would make such drastic changes (in team philosphy and roster) to a team that, before last season, had made it to 2 WCF and a Conference semifinals eventually losing twice to the Spurs (who would go on to win the Championship).

Not to mention, a team that had the 1st, 4th, and 2nd best records in the league in those 3 seasons.

Before The Big Change, we had pretty damn close to “the perfect run and gun roster.” We had…

PG – The perfect run n gun PG in Nash

Wings – “solid perimeter defender” Raja
and “a pure scoring guard like Leandro Barbosa

PF/Center – “One should be a great rebounder that can score on put backs” Marion
and “while the other is a big that can spread the floor a bit” Amare

We obviously had “Superstars”, but we were always lacking in “Depth and Defense.” But instead of a trade that could have helped us get that, we decide to change the whole philosophy of the team? I still just don’t get it.

by brian13 on Feb 23, 2009 4:25 PM MST reply actions  

I don't either

The trade for Shaq will go down as one of the most nonsensical deal the Suns ever made…

Can’t undo the trade now though. He’s here so you play to his strengths or you play to Nash’s and that has been the story line all year long.

by Seth Pollack on Feb 23, 2009 4:47 PM MST up reply actions  

We only decided to change the philosophy..

when we got rid of Mike D. The Shaq trade was made before then.

The reason the 7SOL team couldn’t win was primary due to the fact that we were soft in the middle, having no decent post game to speak of, and because we were a not so good rebounding team, particularly wrt allowing offensive boards. That and the fact that we were undersized at the C/PF positions, where both players didn’t want to play.

I liked the Shaq trade.. still do, providing his Shaqness is mobile, which he has shown himself to be, so far this season. With Amare in there at his natural position, when his head was on straight, we had decent rebounding for once, and our offense was still potent enough. Moreover, with Shaq’s passing, our outside shooting becomes a real threat again.

Look, I’m a little disappointed with the result vs the Celtics. We should have been better, regardless of whether it was the refs, Rondo having a blinder of a shooting game, or whatever.

But our team does us vs the world, pretty well, and if anything comes out of this, it’s going to be the realization that the team needs to stick together, and play in concert, with team defense. We still have enough good players to give any team a fright.

btw, whoever came up with 7SOS (7 seconds or Shaq).. snaps to you..

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Feb 23, 2009 5:16 PM MST up reply actions  

The Shaq trade was made before then..

But it did not fit with our philosophy. That’s the point. Sure he added size and rebounding. But he is not a player that fits in well with a running team. Trading for him clogged the middle on offense and slowed us down on defense.

by brian13 on Feb 23, 2009 9:35 PM MST up reply actions  

I disagree...

when Mike D got Shaq, it was always with an eye to integrate him into the running game, or at least into a 7SOS type game, just like Showtime.

Mike D even said as much at the time.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Feb 23, 2009 10:00 PM MST up reply actions  

Fair enough.

But getting Shaq and wanting to integrate him into the running game is not the same as being able to.

by brian13 on Feb 23, 2009 10:07 PM MST up reply actions  

Deffensive rebounding

in the real run-and-gun, its a bit over-rated.

or, maybe not, but I specifically remember the 05-06 Suns winning games so long as they kept the differential better than -15.

more important was the defending rebounding percentage

has Shaq helped there? I’m not sure. I’m just wondering when he stops rebounding because they’re not playing the way he wants to.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on Feb 23, 2009 10:20 PM MST up reply actions  

It's second chance points that killed us..

I’m agreeing with you, btw.

Our defense was always adequate wrt shooting percentages, because we shot so much better than the other teams, even those we lost to in the playoffs. But we gave up so many second chances, to good teams who could take advantage, that our edge was negated.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Feb 23, 2009 10:24 PM MST up reply actions  

I'd be willing to bet ...

That teams are now more effective and efficient on the second-chance opportunities that they get now … as opposed to our glorious gunners of years gone by

And with the Suns taking fewer shots and throwing more balls away … well, that’s not good.

In the Porter Era, second chance points were just more damaging than before. given the net possessions, the “improvement” from Shaq hasn’t been enough to justify the trade. Overall, it’s a net loss (I think).

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on Feb 23, 2009 10:35 PM MST up reply actions  

I think it's just that we're much less efficient than we used to be

that, and the major increase in turnovers, this season.

I noticed, even vs the Celtics, that our turnovers are way down, since Alvin took over.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Feb 23, 2009 10:52 PM MST up reply actions  

Just saying the philosophy didn't change until Mike left.

It was pretty clear that the Trix thing had gotten so bad that Mike D & Steve Kerr decided last season was a lost cause, despite being in 1st place in the west. They wanted to have a full summer of Shaq in rehab, and a full preseason to get everyone on the same page.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Feb 23, 2009 10:24 PM MST reply actions  

They wanted to have a full summer of Shaq in rehab, and a full preseason to get everyone on the same page.

Did “they” include Coach D? Thanks again

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on Feb 23, 2009 10:30 PM MST up reply actions  

Yes, "they" included Mike D, at the time..

but, by the time we got pummeled by the Spurs, the rift between Steve Kerr and Mike D had gotten too wide.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Feb 23, 2009 10:42 PM MST up reply actions  

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