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Around SBN: Identifying The 19th-Best Team In Baseball

To Trade or Stand Pat?

Trade rumors abound once again for the Phoenix Suns.  The latest rumors have the Suns looking to trade Amare, and possibly Shaq, even though GM Kerr has said no one is untouchable. 

Does it make sense to trade or stand pat?

Star-divide

As I recounted in my last post, it is my opinion that the Suns have the best starting 5 in the NBA on paper, a solid 6th man in LB, and at least 2 other reserves that  can play some significant minutes off the bench.

Still, it is obvious that the Suns continue to struggle this year. At times, they have looked downright pathetic, turning over the ball in record numbers, and getting out hustled on both sides of the ball.

Does it make sense to trade one or more of the Suns in hopes of salvaging this season, or to start rebuilding?

Lets look at the roster:

Shaq - As I mentioned last time, Shaq is playing great ball.  He is a bona fide All-Star center not just someone that won a popularity contest.  His talent lies in his post up skills, ability to pass the ball (allowing a whole offense to be built around him), and to rebound the ball.  If you were going to trade Shaq, you would want to get another quality center in return.  Almost assuredly, you would be losing value at the center position.  Even more, you would need to bring someone else in that an offense could be built around when Nash is not on the floor.  It would also be ironic to trade the "big man" that for so long everyone said was necessary to win a title.

Stat - Amare is the one in the center of the trade discussions.  His attitude, dissatisfaction with his role in the offense, his number touches, and his lapses in rebounding and defense seem to be the things that people point to.  What Stat brings to the table is tremendous scoring ability from anywhere inside the 3pt line.  He is a "go-to" player.  He is the kind of player you give the ball to, over and over as a center piece of an offense.  He is easily a 30-10 player if given enough chances.  He also has the drive to be that guy.  If you trade Stat, you would again have to find someone to play at the PF position.  Almost anyone you bring would also be a downgrade at that position.  The ironic thing about trading Amare is that he is one of the young and promising players that the Suns can build around for the next 5+ years.  It seems that as long as Shaq stays with the Suns and continues to play at the current level, the Suns would probably be able to get by without Amare.  But they would be thin inside if Shaq is out.

Hill - Hill said he would retire if he is traded, so unless someone can change his mind, I don't see this happening.  Hill also is a great gap filler that is playing great ball right now, and is probably the teams best defender.  I don't even think a trade here is possible.

J. Rich. - He just got here!  J. Rich is a tremendous SG in this league, certainly in the upper echelon at that position.  He has not been with the team long enough to know if he will or will not be a good fit.  He is a good 3 pt shooter, very athletic, and a great leaper.  If you do trade J. Rich. you could move LB into the starting role, which might actually be a good thing given how well LB plays when he starts.  Still you would need to get some solid backup at the 1 or 2 guard position or risk being even thinner at those positions than you are already.  This might actually make the most sense, but it seems highly unlikely considering the fact he just joined the team and no one is pointing to him as being a problem.

Nash - Nash is still one of the top point guards in the league.  He led the league in assists for the month of January and is currently 3rd in the league in that category.  He is also one of the most popular players in the NBA.  Even with all of the struggles trying to feed all of the scorers on the team, and adjusting to feeding Shaq, Nash still makes the Suns go.  As it is, the Suns don't have a great substitute for Nash at the PG position.  If they were to trade him, they would definitely need to get another PG in return.  Any likely trade would be a downgrade at that position, unless you are looking very long term.

LB - Leandro Barbosa is a great talent and solid 6th man for the Suns.  As mentioned above, he might even be the best SG on the team.  He has picked up his game over the last couple of weeks and reminds us what a tremendous player he is.  He bring instant offense, energy, and pace to the team.  He also is a great team player with a wonderful attitude that makes for great team chemistry.  If the Suns were to trade him, they would also be sacrificing a player that they could continue to build around for years to come.  Again, if they trade him they would be needing a PG or SG in return.

As for the rest of the Suns, any of the remaining players are expendable and could be used to package with another player or players in a trade deal.  They all have some potential to help the team this year or in the future, but they have had their ups and downs.

It is odd to look down the whole starting roster and come to the conclusion that they are all excellent players at their position, and that any likely trade would require a replacement at that position that would probably be a downgrade.  It is not like in years past, when we were looking for a true center and were willing trade extra depth at other positions to get a true center.  Right now "on paper" we have a solid team.  Any tinkering would likely be a short term downgrade in talent in hopes of a short term increase in chemistry and cohesion, or long term benefit (financial or talent), or both.

In some ways, I think the possibility of trading JRich is the most intriguing to me.  LB has better stats than JRich anyway.  He has show the potential to score on his own and even get others involved to some degree.  JRich still hasn't shown that to me apart from fast breaks.  I have yet to see him take anyone off the dribble.  He has tried posting up smaller guards, and I have yet to see him actually make the shot.  I would like to see LB get more playing time and a trade would open that up.

I wish that if we were going to trade Amare, that we would have done that before we traded Boris Diaw.  I think the problem Diaw had is that when Amare returned from his knee surgery, he was no longer the go-to guy and like Amare is finding out, it is hard to operate in the same space that another big name player is operating in.  Diaw gave you scoring, and he also gave you the ability to get the whole offense going like Nash.  If he was asked to be the man, he would step up and do the same job he did for the team that he did during the '05-'06 season.  Diaw would have fit in better with this team if he had Stat's place.  We could have kept Bell and used the Stat trade to bring in 2 or 3 solid backups.  Imagine a line up of: Shaq, Diaw, Hill, LB, Nash, Bell, plus 1-3 of the players that a likely Stat trade would bring in.  Oh well ... what might have been.

Still, I think that the Suns have the right players.  They just need to get on the same page, and find a way to make it work.  They have shown glimpses of that this year.  I think Terry Porter would do well to realize what players play well together, and what players don't.  Shaq and Stat do not play well together as they take up a lot of the same space ... and Shaq takes up more of it.  Similarly, Shaq and Nash don't play well together.  Again Shaq takes up space that Nash likes to use to operate in.  To me, that means, the Suns should make sure that when Nash is taking a break, that Shaq is on the floor.  They can run the offense through Shaq, get him the touches he wants, and we get high percentage post ups, open 3's, or easy shots on cuts to the basket.  When Shaq is taking a rest, it is the tried and true Nash and Stat type of offense.  Since you probably don't want them only playing 24 minutes a game, they would need to overlap some, but if they had a good 16 minutes a game running things the way they want I suspect they would be happier than they are now.

In my mind, it is the coaches job to do the best with what he has.  Terry Porter does not have players with the defensive skills of the Detroit Pistons, but he does have a rich set of offensive players who can score at a high percentage.  If he can get them to reduce their turnovers and rebound like they are capable, they will win a lot of games and do well in the play-offs.

It is the GM's job to get the coach players that will help fit in and improve the whole.  The question then is what Steve Kerr thinks that looks like for the Suns, and whether or not he is right.

 

Poll
I am getting the feeling that fans are getting cold feet about trading Amare. What should the Suns do?
Stand pat - addition by subtraction is math fail
122 votes
Do it. Do it now. The window is shut. Start the remodel now while our guys have the most value
125 votes

247 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 22 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Too much offense. Where's your defence?

None of the players that you showcased here showed much talent in defence beyond Grant Hill.

Shaq’s defence is still suspect and he’s not drawing double teams these days.

Whether we trade or not depends whether we need more offense or more defence. And Mark makes it clear that whether Suns win or lose is not that dependent on Amer’s scoring and rebounding figures: “The Suns do not play significantly better when Amare is rebounding and rebounding well.”

http://phoenix.fanster.com/blackjesusdisciples/2009/01/30/bjd-crunches-numbers-humor-does-not-ensue/

With Steve Nash, scoring is not a problem with a team filled with people who want to score.

by magenta on Feb 8, 2009 12:31 AM MST reply actions  

Not enough balls to go around

This is exactly what I was worried about most when we traded for JRich…

You are right though that the roster should be better then it is and that’s really what’s driving the trade talk.

This roster is expensive and going to be more so next season. I think it is reasonable for the owner/gm to look at the players and say that if this group isn’t getting it done (and they are not) then why pay the lux tax and the 8th highest salary in the league.

by Seth Pollack on Feb 8, 2009 9:49 AM MST up reply actions  

On JSun RichardSun

I understand your concern, but I’ve yet to hear him complain.

He’s not putting up All-Star numbers. I don’t know if that’s because he cannot function without 22 shots or if he’s simply being a good guy and filling his role. I’m going to guess the latter for two reasons — 1. the benefit of the doubt and 2. his history at Golden State (e.g., apologizing to the fans for losing) suggests he is a “do whatever it takes to win” sort of guy

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on Feb 8, 2009 9:59 AM MST up reply actions  

True

but there has been talk from him about not being used to this role and from Nash about guys being used to being the go to guy and having to adjust to doing the little things that others would do.

Even Hill has talked about passing up shots. The guys can do it (and won’t complain) but I think the point is that you can’t expect them to be as effective in a different role. Just b/c JRich is a great scorer doesn’t mean he can take fewer shots and then all of sudden take over for a 4 min stretch in the 3rd quarter.

Having a great player at each position doesn’t seem to be a winning formula over time. 2 or 3 Stars plus role players is what’s worked. The team is clearly having issues incorporating all the “mouths to feed”.

by Seth Pollack on Feb 8, 2009 10:04 AM MST up reply actions  

What I'm not sure about is whether he was ever a "star"

Or just thrust into that role.

Sure, he was BMOC in the NCAA, but he went to a crappy team that needed him to produce. Great dunks and all … but not a great handle or pull-up jumper. He’s also developed his long-range game. But, again, he’s not exactly Reggie Miller or Rip Hamilton.

Maybe, because of the teams he’s been on, he’s been a good role player thrust into the “star” category because everyone else on the team was so bad. Kind of like Q playing the 3 or Amare playing center.

Just b/c JRich is a great scorer doesn’t mean he can take fewer shots and then all of sudden take over for a 4 min stretch in the 3rd quarter.

True. Few can do that. Is that what he’s being asked to do?

I could be wrong, but my memory is that (at least on the Wariors), Davis or Jackson was the guy that would carry the team for spurts. At least, they were the ones regularly stepping up to do it.

Maybe … I don’t know.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on Feb 8, 2009 10:10 AM MST up reply actions  

Great post btw

I added the poll and purposely made it a binary choice to force folk into choosing sides. I had a hard time answering myself would have likely picked a “depends” option which is why there isn’t one available :)

by Seth Pollack on Feb 8, 2009 10:00 AM MST reply actions  

Option 3: FIRE THE COACH!

Since option 3’s not happening, I’ll chose option 2

Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."

by rsavaj on Feb 8, 2009 10:31 AM MST reply actions  

decided to keep this poll

limited to the options that the team might actually do. They are not going to fire porter. Or kerr.

so…

by Seth Pollack on Feb 8, 2009 10:35 AM MST up reply actions  

*choose

Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."

by rsavaj on Feb 8, 2009 10:50 AM MST up reply actions  

I agree that LB needs to get more playing time

I understand that you can’t bench a player like J-Rich. But at least give LB more playing time. I don’t know if anybody noticed but LB’s defense against GS on Friday was great. There’s no way Barnes should get more playing time than him. No way.

To me, Porter is focusing on keeping the player’s and the boss happy instead of looking for the right formula to win games. If Shaq or any of the players open their mouths to complain, he’ll grant their wishes.

Nash asked to run a little bit more, Porter lets him
Shaq says that if they want him to be Shaq he needs more touches, Porter runs all plays for him and starts force-feeding him in the post.
Barnes says he’s not getting enough minutes, Porter plays Barnes before LB even if he’s stinking the place up.
Shaq checks in the scorer’s table saying “I’m going in” without Terry asking him to do so.

What is this?

I’m done complaining about TP. I think I’ve said all that I can.

"Basketball doesn't build character. It reveals it"

by PanamaSun on Feb 8, 2009 10:53 AM MST reply actions  

Thanks

I think that summed up well the problems I have noticed w/ Porter as well. Letting the inmates run the asylum….

I think when you have guys like Shaq, Nash and Hill you do have to listen to what they are saying. You can not let a guy like Barnes push you around though. Unacceptable. I will be surprised if he’s still here after Feb 19th.

And yes – I was impressed w/ LB’s D on Ellis as well and overall his on the ball defensive improvement this season. Don’t forget though that Ellis is far from 100% so….just saying

I still think though that there are only some teams you can play a 3 guard line up for significant minutes. JRich is a bigger body and does rebound well but I just don’t know they are used to playing like that for extended minutes. You also then are taking minutes from Hill too since you just can’t play Nash, LB, JRich, Hill and Amare or Shaq. Too small up front.

by Seth Pollack on Feb 8, 2009 11:14 AM MST up reply actions  

What?
I will be surprised if he’s still here after Feb 19th.

Were you talking about Barnes or Porter? Who wants Barnes? Who cares? Bench him and let his contract run out at the end of this year.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on Feb 8, 2009 9:31 PM MST up reply actions  

Oh, someone

will want him. I’ll take a 2nd round pick for him at this point or throw him in w/ Amare if a deal happens

by Seth Pollack on Feb 8, 2009 9:39 PM MST up reply actions  

Equal value

That’s my biggest concern. If the Suns can get both a young and promising potential combined with a decent expiring contract role player/other s, then do it – I guess that’s never going to be easy.

by dang on Feb 8, 2009 2:01 PM MST reply actions  

I’d take anyone on the Pistons, but PLEASE not AI. PLEASE.

by Bostwik on Feb 8, 2009 2:13 PM MST reply actions  

Can LB or J.Rich play SF and Grant Hill move to PG

I’m sorry but Barnes don’t deserve a place in the rotation right now.

And guards needs to be able to guard people. GH does the best job right now in the team.

And I think you need an alternative formation that can play off Shaq.

When Shaq rests, Nash can come on and pick and roll the other team to death with Amare (or whoever comes along)

by magenta on Feb 8, 2009 6:52 PM MST reply actions  

I was just thinking that

This game and the last game.

I’d really love to see LB at the 2 and RichardSun at the 3. With Nash running the floor and Shaq sitting, that would give Amare the lane and 3 guys over 40% from downtown. Lou or, possibly, Dudley could be in there with them Wouldn’t that work?

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on Feb 8, 2009 9:28 PM MST up reply actions  

It did tonight!

"Basketball doesn't build character. It reveals it"

by PanamaSun on Feb 8, 2009 9:37 PM MST up reply actions  

This is intriguing
I think the problem Diaw had is that when Amare returned from his knee surgery, he was no longer the go-to guy and like Amare is finding out, it is hard to operate in the same space that another big name player is operating in.

So, Shaq moves Amare over and Amare is “down” to 20 ppg, but when Amare moves Boris over Boris can’t get 5 points and 5 boards. What does that tell us?

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on Feb 8, 2009 9:36 PM MST reply actions  

That Amare is exponentially better than Diaw

A better scorer, a better rebounder and better at adapting to the situation around him?

Also, that if it was so damned hard for a pretty smart player to do it, then maybe Amare isn’t the dullest tool in the shed?

And, if it was so hard for a pretty good player to do it, then Amare must be an outstanding player. Maybe an All-Star. Or a First Team All-NBA player.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on Feb 8, 2009 9:44 PM MST up reply actions  

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