Grizz rejected Amare trade
by Seth Pollack on Apr 10, 2009 8:57 AM MST
in Phoenix Suns News
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PrintAccording to this article in the Memphis Commercial Appeal (what a great name for a newspaper!) it was the Memphis Grizzlies that rejected a Suns offer that would have sent Amare Stoudemire in return for Rudy Gay, Hakim Warrick, Mike Conley and a first round pick.
We heard rumors of this deal at the time, but this I believe is the first specific confirmation of the details and that it was the Suns offer that was rejected.
Memphis Coach Hollins had some interesting thoughts on the matter:
He [Hollins] adamantly fought against the three-for-one transaction that the Suns boldly proposed.
"I was definitely against it," Hollins said. "I like Amare Stoudemire. But with what the Grizzlies had to give up, there wouldn't have been anything left for Amare to play with. My questions were would he be happy and would he stay? It wouldn't have been pleasant trying to coach a guy who didn't want to be here.
"Overall, I just didn't think it was a good deal for us. We have a core of young players we're building with. In my mind, you don't do it unless it's a young Shaquille (O'Neal) or Kobe (Bryant) or Lebron James or Tim Duncan or somebody who can carry the game by himself. Those guys are franchise players."
Griz owner Michael Heisley, convinced of the same philosophy, turned down Suns owner Robert Sarver not once but twice. Heisley countered with a package that would have guaranteed Phoenix less talent and more salary-cap relief. But the Suns insisted on a top-dollar talent payout that centered on Gay.
Two things stand out here:
Amare isn't viewed as a franchise player by at least this organization and like we suspected his opt out clause is an impediment to sending him somewhere where he won't be happy.
The deal was offered by Robert Sarver and not Steve Kerr. We heard a few times during the trade deadline discussions that Sarver was taking an unusually active role which of course he and Kerr down-played at the time. This report seems to confirm Sarvers role. I wonder what that bodes for Kerr's future with the organization? Any time your boss steps in and does your job for you it is not a good sign.
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Anyone
with the last name Gay is fine with me, if only for the endless opportunities for juvenile humor that would arise.
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee."
Drew Gooden.
asking for Gay, Conley, Warrick and a pick is a bit much for Amare. I would revisit this on draft day for Gay and their pick if, and only if we are rebuilding.
Yeah, Sarver probably thought all GMs were as stupid as Steve.
Here, we’ll give you a one-way player with ego/injury issues w/ only one year left under contract for your best player, your best PG prospect, a solid wing, and your first round draft pick!
Psh.
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
I have some observations also, PStan
The first is that I agree with you, that Amare is not viewed as a franchise player. But I also see a mistake on the part of Michael Heisley and Lionel Hollins. I do not believe a core of Gay, Warrick, and Conley will ever bring the Grizz to anything more that possibly a #8 slot in the playoffs if they play together for a while. They have to shake things up. If I am the Grizz, I take that deal if the Suns throw in their #1. Then I have
C Gasol
PF Stoudemire
SF Arthur
SG Mayo
PG Lawson/Maynor
This is at least as good as what they have, and look at all the rookie contracts. They could sign a FA or two to fill in the gaps.
I don’t see an idiot like Heisley and a coach like Hollins (who can’t seem to get any traction in his pro career) as experts in player evaluation. Now if Donnie Walsh was saying this, I would listen.
Also, the only parts I like about this trade from the Suns side are the draft choice and Mike conley. I do not like Warrick (I would take Arthur instead), and Gay is a me-first stat hound that would give us the same problem we would be getting rid of with Amare.
This whole thing kind of makes me nervous, though, because Sarver is starting to behave like Jerry Jones, like he wants to be the GM.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
i would do Conley/Gay/pick for Amare/pick
Sarver regretted trading JJ, that is why he is interested in Rudy Gay.
Gay is not JJ
Rudy Gay is a black hole in the offense, JJ is unselfish. He was tthe missing piece.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
not many people are JJ.
However, selfishness aside, they do share some traits
Not many people are JJ,
but many people are gay. This is fun!
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee."
Drew Gooden.
by Diosnomeama on Apr 12, 2009 10:20 AM MST up reply actions
JJ wanted out!
One thing I don’t understand is how so many people, suns fans included, say trading JJ was a dumb trade. Well, for whatever reason, people have completely forgot that JJ ASKED to be traded, he was not happy being the 4th option behind stat, trix, and nash, so he wanted to go to the loser hawks where he could be the big man of the franchise. The fact that the picks were top 3 protected was the only bad part of that trade, as we could have drafted somebody better in place of Marvin Williams (I can think of a few guys I’d like on our team). At least we got Diaw, who may have been a soft puddle of goo when coming off the bench but was an incredibly effective starter the year Stat was injured and is tearing it up for the Bobcats. Now Raja and Boris for JRich was a TERRIBLE trade. I wouldn’t trade Raja for Jrich straight up let alone our best big man off the bench. Just don’t forget: JJ wanted out! Tell your friends!
i'm not buying it
I’ll believe the ppl when they say JJ wanted to stay here, but Sarver booted him out.
by Aluminum Foyle on Apr 10, 2009 12:43 PM MST up reply actions
sarver had no choice
what else could he do? when has it ever worked out for a franchise when they keep a player who doesn’t want to stay there? JJ did everything short of publicly demand to get traded. the lakers got lucky when pau gasol was gifted to them otherwise kobe would still be requesting a trade to this day. and it was Colangelo who made the trade to get rid of JJ.
Regarding Joe Johnson
The only way we could have retained JJ was the year before we traded him, if we had given him that 10M per extension he wanted. After that fell apart, he wanted out and there’s nothing you could do about it (except matching Atlanta and give him the max, but of course we wouldn’t do that).
(Come to think about it, we could be having him for 10M per now instead of JRich at 13M per!! I’m gonna light myself on fire!!)
And the ATL pick that came in the JJ trade would end up being Al Horford if it wasn’t top 3 protected. Or we could have picked Conley if we wanted a PG.
(Come to think about it, what if we had Al Horford? Then we probably need not do the Shaq trade right? Then either we’ve won with Marion, or at least his contract expires now and we have cap relief…. ARGH!!!! I’m gonna light myself on fire again!!)
With the 14th pick of the 2009 NBA draft, the Pheonix Suns select... 3 million dollars!
I could be mistaken but...
Pretty sure we offered JJ a max contract, actually I think we offered him more than Atlanta could… but he still wanted to bolt because his ego had been bruised ( Sarver lacks people skills) and he wanted to be “the guy”… or maybe that was damage control on the organizations part. If Saver had given JJ his max contract ( which he absolutely should have, I rarely post on here & about half my posts are on this topic) he would have spent 45mill in less than 48 hours ( reworking Amare & Marion’s contracts if I remember correctly) & would have proven to us a championship was his number one priority… instead he tried to cut corners and save a little $, and we all know where that got us.
I don't want to be a product of my environment, I want my environment to be a product of me.
Good points
This is only one data point re: Amare but I think the comment regarding Amare’s ability to opt out if he’s not happy is a big factor in any trade.
I also didn’t like this deal from the Suns perspective.
Gay is a horrible fit with Nash, JRich and Hill and Warrick’s value was as an expiring contract. The only good part there is Rudy is still on a cheap rookie contract but he’s not a player I want to see in Phx for any extended period of time.
The pick would as you say be key but there’s no telling what it would have been. Conley would have been a cheap enough gamble to take at PG.
Now the Suns can wait until the draft order and target the team with the top two or three pick and offer any one of the big four contracts.
It does show how much Sarver wanted to move Amare and obviously Shaq as well but he wasn’t desperate enough to make a horrible deal either which is good.
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Seth Pollack on Apr 10, 2009 11:09 AM MST up reply actions
Jordan Hill
Does anyone else sense that Kerr/Sarver might have some intent on moving up in the draft to grab Jordan Hill.
P.S. Tyrus is coming in to his own as evidenced by last night, I wouldn’t rule out a deal with Chicago this summer.
Or GSW
There was a rumored deal with Golden State for Biedrins, Randolf and Turiaf that I loved.
It wasn’t possible at the trade deadline due to Biedrins base year contract restrictions but this summer the Warriors will be about $7m under the cap which makes a straight up deal for Beans and Randolf for Amare possible and would save $5m. I love this deal.
Then I would try REALLY hard to move JRich to anyone under the cap that would take him and give back a pick. Minnesota seems the best option as they need a perimeter veteran scorer to play inside out w/ Big Al.
Then I would keep Shaq and Nash and Hill and you’ve got Biedrins sharing time w/ Shaq. You would need to find a PF that can shoot from range to replace Amare but that’s doable. Warrick (who I don’t like) will be a cheap free agent. There are others, I’m sure.
And if you get really really lucky you get the #1 pick in return for JRich and our 1st rd pick and you’ve got Blake but I would trade Shaq or Nash to get that #1 pick especially if you can do that deal w/ GSW.
Biedrins, Griffin, Randolf, Lopez, Dragic, Dudley, Amundson become the young core and then Hill and either Shaq or Nash or JRich to ease the transition to the 2010 free agent bonanza.
One thing I don’t want to see next year for sure is Nash and JRich together in the backcourt. You can’t have two guards that are poor defensively. If you keep Nash you need a defensive SG like Thabo or Ronnie Brewer that can move over and cover the great PG’s.
The Chicago deal is interesting too though b/c Amare might be happy there but don’t count out ATL. They are going to be losing Bibby at the end of this season and he makes about the same as Nash and Amare ($13-15m) and they are going to be about $10m under the cap.
I would think there might be interest there in Nash to be an upgrade over Bibby for a playoff team looking to get better. They certainly are one of the teams that will be a buyer this summer and they’ve got money to spend w/o going over the lux tax. $20m actually. I would think Amare would be very happy there but he doesn’t fit w/ Josh Smith and I don’t know how I feel about trading Amare for Smith who has a long term deal….maybe
Anyway – ATL I think will be in the mix. Chicago. Minnie. Memphis. GSW. Toronto will be way under the cap but I don’t ever see them giving up Calderon for Nash so…
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Seth Pollack on Apr 10, 2009 11:47 AM MST up reply actions
Randolph
Only guy i would trade Amare for. I saw him make one of the nicest plays for a big man. Of course it was against the Suns D. But, i’m concerned i got too exited over one play. What kind of upside does he have?
by Funky Flapsack on Apr 10, 2009 1:33 PM MST up reply actions
“If you keep Nash you need a defensive SG like Thabo or Ronnie Brewer that can move over and cover the great PG’s.”
Like Raja? I understand he was getting old and his D was slipping a little.. but he was a defensive SG at 5M to JRich’s no defense and 13M.
No, you need to draft Terrence Williams if that is the case
TWill is NBA ready and can cover that job immediately
Bell never
guarded other teams PG’s. Even in his best days you didn’t see him on a guy like Parker or Paul. Shawn Marion did that. Even Diaw some but never Bell.
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Seth Pollack on Apr 10, 2009 2:05 PM MST up reply actions
You're right..
I guess i was just trying to point out that the JRich deal was the opposite of what we needed.
We need to dump Shaq
But it’s hard to imagine any of these lottery teams having any interest in Shaq and the drama that comes with him. So in all likelyhood we keep him or trade to a contender. The important thing is to free us from his contract, and at the same time free up the space in the lane for Amare.
Amare IS a franchise player. To back up this point, look at the Nuggets. I would say that Amare is a better player than their franchise guy, Carmelo. The Nuggets were able to become contenders by surrounding him with the correct talent. Amare just needs the right pieces. We need a good pick and roll PG. Maybe LB fills this role. Or maybe we keep LB at the 2 and Dragic gets better at his position. Or we add another PG.
We need a defensive minded center that also has a decent jump shot. What’s Camby’s contract status?
And lastly we should keep Hill. He has meant so much to this team. He’s the perfect SF for this team.
by Funky Flapsack on Apr 10, 2009 12:25 PM MST reply actions
There is one lottery team
that Shaq could go to and become an instant playoff contender, matybe even the #4 playoff spot. That is the Washington Wizards. With Jamison, Arenas, and Shaq, they would do well in the East.
I suggestested this before. Trade Shaq for Butler, Haywood, and the #1.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
nice
didnt even think about that. You think they would if they had the #1 overall?
by Funky Flapsack on Apr 10, 2009 3:43 PM MST up reply actions
NO WAY ANYONE GIVES UP THE #1 FOR SHAQ
hopefully i eat my words
Or J-Rich for that matter. Nobody is that stupid.
I don't want to be a product of my environment, I want my environment to be a product of me.
Ever wonder why
these teams are in the lottery year after year? It is because they ARE stupid.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
I'd be suprised if Thompson gets moved, they are pretty high on him up north. With good reason.
I don't want to be a product of my environment, I want my environment to be a product of me.
make deal w GS, draft Jennings with their pick
draft T-Will with our pick
hope Sacto gets #1 Griffin, trade for JTHOM
then a bright young future lies ahead
Jennings/T-Will/Randolph/Thompson/Biedrins
still must figure out what to do with Nash/Shaq/JRich but that solves the youth problem
i’m assuming you move LB to Sacto
TOR needs a SG and has cap space, JRich might solve that problem for them and return another pick
May cant get here quick enough
I just want to know who we can trade with to move up in this draft. I said i’d only trade Amare for Randolph, but i suppose if whoever has the Griffin pick were willing, I would be down to trade for him as well. He’s like Amare, but with rebounds
so my question is
why are we all so sure someone that has picks to give wants amare? and for that matter, getting a pick out of a nash trade means trading him to a team that sucks. Not gunna happen. If an amare trade is put together, does he even pass the physical? If we ship shaq, is it for someone else that expires before 2010? 20mill worth? If it is, then im sure they suck. They for sure will not be a 7 foot 300lb Shaqtus, and then we are right back where we started. No center, horrible rebounding, EVEN LESS depth on the bench at that position(Lopez??lol Lou? nah. Exactly where to we get a center from if shaq is traded. I can see jrich being shipped but thats because ppl like dunks n 3’s and for a team that has somewhat competent D I’m sure he’ll do fine.
At this point, I hate to say it but I’m started to feel like I NEED to see a full year of gentball with the current roster MINUS possible jrich. Most likely not gunna happen and it would probably be more of them same anyways. I don’t care if amare or shaq or nash or jrich go, I just don’t see many options where the first 3 net us a pick, UNLESS someone has a hard on for Amare and thinks he will resign.
Random thought: Do you think agent zero is done? Would the wiz do Nash/Jrich for Gilbert + whatever. what if it was even Caron+Gilbert + pick for nash/j-poor and barbs?
Don’t flame me me its just a random thought just curious if any of you think there is any merit to a deal LIKE that.
I love Gilbert
But I’m not necessarily sure I’d want him on the Suns. I could be wrong, but with so many mouths to feed already, I don’t think a shoot first PG would be the best fit for us.
Also
a horrible contract and a history of knee problems.
"I didn’t even know Elvis was from Memphis, I thought he was from Tennessee."
Drew Gooden.
as I finished that
I realized that didn’t really make sense salary wise. I think I would much rather do something exactly like this:
warning this trade includes barbosa
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=d68f5a
Obviously with either getting their pick or swapping picks.
Once more
do not trade Barbosa – step away from the computer. It used to be you built a team with guys that had heart. He’s the only one left.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
the wise one
has spoken. I agree as well just sort of curious as to how others feel about him “in the right scenario” What is it was literally the #1 pick? I like your shaq for butler idea much more I actually didn’t see it before I started messin around.
by M-A-Nthefkup on Apr 11, 2009 1:39 AM MST up reply actions
Of course they rejected it, but did milk squirt out their nose because they were laughing so hard when they rejected it -- THAT'S the question...
According to this article in the Memphis Commercial Appeal (what a great name for a newspaper!) it was the Memphis Grizzlies that rejected a Suns offer that would have sent Amare Stoudemire in return for Rudy Gay, Hakim Warrick, Mike Conley and a first round pick.
Pontiff of the Pryz for Prez Posse...
blazers w/ nash
I kind under the influence I can’t tell if this is horrendous or not. This would obv be rebuild status.
no way in hell
http://saboner.mybrute.com
by Sabonis4Ever on Apr 12, 2009 7:40 PM MST up reply actions
the only thing about this story that provides hope
is that Sarver rejected a trade that would have been good for salary-cap purposes.
I have contended that he hasn’t been as cheap as people think, but rather that he has spent money poorly, so this is good to see that despite the economic situation he must be in, he still didn’t take a trade to save money.
although that may change next year.
yo
I think you need to reread the article
by M-A-Nthefkup on Apr 11, 2009 1:40 AM MST up reply actions
Failed chances.
Joe Johnson did want out to play a bigger role as a RFA, but in the previous off-season, he was looking for a long-term extension that the Suns didn’t want to sign him to.
In the 2006 Draft Pheonix got Rondo with the 21st pick and traded it to Boston for Clevelands pick in the next draft and Cash. The pick ended up being the 24th pick, which usually means it will be no good. Rajon Rondo for some cash and a 24th pick is a very bad trade.
With the 24th pick in the 2007 draft, the Suns picked one of the top 5 players in the draft in Rudy Fernandez. The Suns decided to package Fernendez with James Jones, and trade them both to Portland for Cash. Having a mix of young and veteran players probably would have served the Suns well. Because he was picked so late, Fernendaz is stuck with a 4 year 5.5 million dollar contract, which doesn’t even cover JRich for half a season.
At least when Joe Johnson wanted out, the Suns got something out of the deal that could help them win basketball games. Fernendaz has one of the most succesful transitions over to the North American game, and will probably go into next season greatly improved. For a team trying to a get under the salary cap, a player capable of starting on a lot of teams for a cap hit of 1 million a year would help.
The Suns can re-tool if they want this off-season, but not try to rebuild. Along with selling Fernandez, Kerr traded Kurt Thomas to Seattle along with 2 future 1st round picks for a second round pick. Pheonix’s 2010 draft pick doesn’t belong to them, so they won’t get the benefits that usually go along with finishing with a poor record. Considering Kurt Thomas had an expiring contract, I am sure they could have found another deal that didn’t cost them 2 first round picks.
Selling your draft picks year after year to make a quick dollar is a very bad practice. Rondo makes less than 2 million this season, and he’s already won a championship as a starter. Pheonix used the money they made selling the pick to pay Marcus banks over 4 million a season to back up Steve Nash instead.
As a fan, the Fernendaz deal hurts me the most. I hope they got a lot of cash for him. They sold a potentital all-star in Rondo, and managed to luck out with Fernendaz, who one day could do the same still being there with the 24th pick. Then they just sell him, no picks or players in return.
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