As the Kerr Hate Grows...
by Silkster on Apr 11, 2009 2:24 PM MDT
60 comments
...I would like to offer up a one small morsel of food for thought.
I find it interesting that the bench has been praised lately and the starters berated as to their respective efforts. You do realize that Kerr is responsible for just about everyone on the bench, right? Dragic, Amundson, Dudley, Swift, and Lopez...yup, all Kerr's guys, and all guys, who certainly, if not stars on the NBA level, have played with the heart and hustle that stars at the NBA level should play with. And that all-heart-and-passion guy the Suns have right now, who hasn't mailed in one game this season - that Hill guy or something like that - he's Kerr's guy too, isn't he? Forgive Steve for trying to build a franchise out of hard-working players that uses a model like the Spurs. As much as we hate them, and God knows, I HATE THEM, they truly a model franchise. If Amare had been brought up under Popovich's tutelage as opposed to D' Antoni's, there is no question that he would be approaching (not quite on) but very close to Duncan/Garnett level. He's that gifted talent-wise. Unfortunately, he grew up under a coach that didn't stress defense or discipline whatsoever. There's a reason the most popular saying in the game is "defense wins championships." And if Suns fans haven't learned this lesson over the last four years, continuing only to clamor for the former days of old, there is another saying that would aptly describe our future outlook: "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
My point is, certainly all of Kerr's moves haven't worked out yet, and some, like his hiring of Porter, were downright blunders. But quit attacking him because he took away our fun-lovin, runnin-and-gunnin Suns that were "this close" to a title. Steve Kerr is just as classy as the other Steve in the Suns' organization, and just as smart too. Give him some time, and I'm sure that this Suns team will be a disciplined one that is fun to watch as well.
Sarver, on the other hand, is someone I love to rip on. In my mind, he is cheap and meddling, and would rather produce a monetary profit as opposed to a successful NBA team. But as I've learned from all the armchair GMs on this board that love to bash on Kerr, few, if any, of us fans are fit or intellgent enough to run an NBA franchise. I'm willing to cut them both a little more slack.
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I would hate to work for Sarver as his GM
I totally agree. I think fans have been far too quick to hate on Kerr when I consider most of the problems with the current team to be a mixture of Sarver interfering too much in the GM role and trying to put his stamp on the team after taking over for the Colangelos.
Also, as fun as D’Antoni was as a coach during that stretch, he really did this team a disservice in the long run by not developing a bench or developing players like Amar’e.
I read everywhere fans calling for Kerr to be fired when I think most of the the blame lies with Sarver. Also Kerr inhereted an aging team at the end of its run. The real test for him is what kind of team will he build for the future? So far he has put together one of the better Suns benches of young players that we have seen in a while. Hopefully Sarver won’t mess it up too much.
Sarver always describes himself as a big competitor who wants to win, but he really hurts the credibility of the GM when he reportedly was trying to make Amar’e deals without Kerr’s involvement whatsoever. He needs to back up and let the GM do HIS job. Maybe then fans would be able to asses blame where blame is due.
Kerr hatred
I don’t hateon Kerr. Kerr was sent to the Suns specifically by Popovich to ruin the Suns. And while he HAS ruined the Suns, he has demonmstrated a talent for mariginal, scrappy, one or two dimensional talent such as sit on the Suns’ bench. What do you expect? That’s what he WAS.
I suggest we have two general managers. One for the bench, and one for the starters. Kerr can be the bench GM, since the starters he has brought aboard (Barnes, Shaq, JRich) have been very Clipper-like.
If Dudley becomes a solid starter, I will give him credit for that. He did find Amundson, which was a sharp move. But lets be clear. Take the Mavs. Whilst we were grabbing Lopez, Dudley and Amundson for our bench, they were out there getting Hollins, James Singleton, and Brandon Bass, not to mention Antoine Wright as a sometime starter. I would take Hollins, Singleton, and Bass over Lopez, Dudley, and Amundson any day of the week, and twice on Tuesday. All three of the Mav benchers were available to Kerr.
So hold on there before you toot Steve’s horn. The Mavs are not in the playoffs because Nowitzki-Terry-Howard-Dampier-Kidd have outplayed Shaq-JRich-Nash-Amare-Hill over the course of the season. They are in the playoffs because their bench (Bass-Hollins-Singleton-Terry) have consistently played like starters, bailing the Mavs out of Howard’s injury woes and Kidd’s maddeningly bad shooting spells. Terry and Barbosa cancel each other out.
Have the Suns benchers done the same? No.
The second part of your post is about Sarver, and yes, as much as it pains me to admit it, Cuban has made Sarver look silly as a meddling owner. And that is hard to do, since Cuban looks pretty silly.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
I don't mind having a respectful argument with you...
…but how can you be taken seriously when you say that Poppovich sent Kerr to ruin the Suns organization? I’m pretty sure that was sarcasm on your part, so I digress.
As far as the Mavs bench goes, I haven’t seen them play, let alone their starters, too often. So I can’t really argue against them, seeing as how their stats are slightly better than those of our bench players. I’m certainly not saying our bench is among the best in the league, but this year, I’m just happy we HAVE a bench. It’s been quite a few years since we’ve had a (somewhat) solid bench, and keep in mind, these guys only started to get some real playing time since Alvin took over. Since then, they’ve come in and consistently held the lead or even increased it while the starters got their rest. That’s all you could hope to ask for from the bench, and after the two rookies and the two almost-rookies Amundson & Dudley mesh over the course of the summer and year, their play should continue to improve.
It’s not only that, it’s the culture Kerr is trying to bring to the team: one of hustle and good work ethic as opposed to flash. The entire bench, (yes, even “Butterfingers” Lopez), has shown great hustle and effort in their play, even more so than most of the starters.
As far as starters go, they’re not the best, but they’re not horrible either. Nash has always been my favorite Sun, and he’s been just as brilliant on the offensive end as he’s been bad on the defensive side of the ball. But you can’t really blame Kerr for that. Grant, as I said before, has been nothing short of amazing, so we’re fine there. Shaq has been terrific this season, better than any of the pundits expected him to be. He’s carried the Suns to several wins this year, and he’s been, statistically, as good as you could hope he would be at 37. J-Rich isn’t the huge force we all hoped he would be, but of course his numbers were going to go down around guys like Shaq, Amare, and Nash. Despite his off-the-court problems, he did step up when Barbosa went down, with 5? straight 20-point games. Barnes has clearly been the biggest disappointment, but for what little we’re paying him, he is at the very least, some added depth.
As far as trading Bell and Diaw away goes, they clearly weren’t happy, so what do you expect to get from guys who would rather not cooperate with the coach? It’s not in the least bit surprising to see Diaw, the former French Pastry himself, turn into Napoleon Bonaparte in the eyes of Suns’ fans since he was traded away.
Do we still need to play better defense? Heck yes. Does our bench still have room to improve? Heck yes. And do our starters need to play with as much heart and effort as the rest of the team? HELL yes. But you’re not gonna get that all in one year, otherwise we’d be the Lakers/Celtics/Cavs right now. Which is why I think that we should give Kerr time to rebuild this team once guys like Shaq/Nash/Amare are gone, and THEN praise/curse him…
The grass is always greener on the other side
The funny thing is that if you look at most of the moves that Kerr has made, all of the fans were whining for us to make moves just like what we made. We were getting tried of Bell’s obvious lack of effort this season (and that he was hurting morale in the locker room) and we have always complained about Diaw’s contract. We thought Marion was a cancer in the locker room and we wanted a big man to move Amar’e to his true position. We were sick of D’Antoni’s lack of defense and never playing the bench. All of these things we were complaining about before hand then we complain after the moves get made.
Napoleon Bonaparte was a good point guard
but at 5’2", he would get posted up by Mugsy Bogues.
Seriously, Silkster, hang in there. I’ve been a Suns fan since 1970. I have become rather philosophical in my reflection. Maybe Neal Walk was right. Basketball is a ballet, and we only ruin the beauty of it when we demand to keep score.
Kerr is about my age, which makes me wonder what happened to my life, as I look at my latest unemployment check. More power to him. Rah Rah Rah. Go Wildcats! Aw crap, look what you gone and made me do. I enjoyed those years at ASU, officer, I promise I’ll never say those cursed words again.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
Kerr is a big part of why this franchise died
He said he wanted to bring in defense but he traded/dumped our best defenders like KT, Bell and Diaw away for poor shoot-first defenders like JRich. Let’s not even Marion.
Kerr drafted poorly.
Most importantly, Kerr was trying to recreate the Spurs team whom he won a ring with irregardless that it was almost 10 years ago and that the league played isolation game then.
I have covered my points about Kerr in detail in these 2 posts:
http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2009/4/2/820253/defensive-deficiency-two-trades
http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2009/4/5/823855/we-need-kerr-sarver-to-sell-the
Any attempt to defend Kerr is to defend the indefensible because he not just failed to make the Suns a better defensive team with his moves.
Kerr was also almost single-handedly responsible for tranforming NBA’s most exciting team from the best in the west 1.5 seasons ago to its nineth Best.
For someone who had made defense his mantra for the Suns, Kerr’s self defense is as solid as someone punching through a wet paper bag.
He should go back to what he"s good at. A Public Relations person.
I've always said...
…that our record last year was not indicative of how good (or rather, not good) we were. Yes, we were first in the West at the time, but we were clearly not championship material. I remember watching the Suns last year and telling myself that there would be no way we could beat a team like the Spurs. The Shaq trade didn’t help us beat the Spurs, perhaps because of unfamiliarity with the team, or perhaps because we’ve been cursed by the basketball gods, since the Spurs haven’t beaten too many teams behind Tim Duncan’s three point shooting. Whatever the reason, I’m positive we wouldn’t have gotten any further with Marion as opposed to Shaq. I’m sure a lot of Suns fans think otherwise, but would we really have had any chance to contend with the Lakers/Hornets last year, even IF we had gotten past the Spurs? Doubt it…
Until the 2007-2008 Suns played badly and is no longer number one
Then we fans can say that their team then would never make it.
Unfortunately Suns fans have already made their conclusions that our team will never win the ring, even though we were leading the tough west, based on zero facts.
In fact, I felt that it was unlikely that Suns had a chance when Amare went for micro surgery but I was proven decisively wrong as they went deep with Diaw.
Getting home court advantage in the playoffs would have been more than helpful at the very least for 2007-8.
Do you remember us getting blown out repeatedly by the Hornets?
That was BEFORE Shaq. Way to remember the past, leave out all the unhappy TRUTHS. We got whooped by the Spurs AND the Hornets AND the Celtics MULTIPLE times. Not even half-almost-nearly-close. NOT EVEN &*^#$@(( CLOSE. And you dare say we had a chance of winning the championship?
Brian13, based on very little facts? How about the “FACT” that we were getting THRASHED and ROUTED by elite teams of last season, like Spurs, Celtics, Lakers, Hornets? Go check it out. I watched all of those games last season, and unlike you, I clearly remember THE TRUTH, that we were “NOT A CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM”.
And the Hornets also gave the Spurs a heartache in the play-offs that year
And that’s still no facts. Hindsight is 20/20
And just because a team keeps beating you does not mean that you have to change the team philosophy utterly.
And I think a lot of sports commentators have made it clear that the Suns defense before the Marion trade wasn’t that bad. Above average
They could have explored incremental changes by trading for defensive wing players like Ron Artest who likes to shoot and defend. There were other bigs to be had.
But the fact remains that despite the difficulties that the Suns had with certin teams, the team were the West’s best team, as they still found ways to win.
And that’s what made the Suns a championship team that wins and plays deep into the play-offs.
That’s the key fact that Sun sceptics fail to see. The Marion trade was a desperation move, partly fueled by short-sighted suns fans, which nearly helped fuel a desperation trade for Amare this year.
Take a look at the Lakers and Suns funs should feel ashamed of themselves for doubting their team.
The Lakers were run out of town by the Suns in 2006 and 2007 but did they change their philosophy?
No, they traded for a piece that enhance their team play, instead of damaging or reversing it.
That’s why the Lakers are winning. The team and their fans did not lose their faith and philosophy.
We did. That’s why we had a first round exit last year and we miss the playoffs these year.
Anyone defending decisions that lead to these 2 dissapinting exits aren’t be that real.
ooooh... I forgot our imaginary games that we got thrashed by Boston
Since we didn’t play them until after the Shaq trade.
And then the NOH games, where we lost both by a combined total of 8pts before losing the last one with Shaq by 17?
I’ll give you that we were a HORRIBLE 1-2 against the Lakers before the trade only to lose the last game against them with Shaq.
Oh and don’t forget the Spurs who we were 1-1 against before the trade!!
Wow… I guess it really is a FACT that we were getting “THRASHED and ROUTED” by every elite team. Maybe someone should have watched all of those games last season a little more closely.
Teams get beated by certain teams all the time
CP3 gets beat by Utah and DW all the time.
But does that mean they blow up the Hornets or the Jazz is the better team?
No? The teams that beat us have better players. It’s not necessarily our team system is wrong or inferior. The teams that beat us had better players who also played well within their team system.
Boston’s Big 3 had every team’s number last year, not just the Suns. Just as the Spurs had everyone’s number before but I don’t see every team trying to copy them like Kerr’s Suns and his fans?
And CP3 is carrying a lame Tyson Chandler and a misfiring Peja into the play-offs by himself with an assist from David West.
“The Shaq trade didn’t help us beat the Spurs, perhaps because of unfamiliarity with the team, or perhaps because we’ve been cursed by the basketball gods”… or perhaps because it was the wrong move.
And also, just because you’ve always said that “our record last year was not indicative of how good (or rather, not good) we were”, doesn’t mean that its true. I agree with magenta in that somehow fans decided we were never gonna win with that team based on very little facts.
Sure, he's had some good moves.
But his terrible moves outweigh the good moves. I’m not sure why we’re supposed to give him a pat on the back simply for doing his job somewhat competently from time to time.
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
I won't go out of my way to give Kerr a pat on the back,
but I’m sick of Suns fans blaming everything on him. Sarver and some of the players definitely deserve some, if not most of, of the blame. What did you expect from this year’s team? It shouldn’t come as too much of a surprise that we finished where we did. I’d like to evaluate how this team rebuilds 2/3 years from now, because unless Sarver fires him, which I have not the slightest clue as to whether or not will take place, or Kerr fires himself, which is highly unlikely, he’s going to be the GM for a while.
We are not blaming. We are just pointing out where he went wrong.
Please note that during his first press conference, he did say that he knew very well that he will be judged on his actions either as a genius and a moron.
That’s what we are doing and the verdict is simple:
What happened to this team is nothing more than a tragedy that did not have to happen, except for the hubris of one person who thought he knew how to get the Suns a ring at any cost.
Kerr tried to pull a Pat Reily but he was 3 years too late.
+ 1
Any attempt to excuse his major screw-ups may only encourage him to repeat more of the same with his limited experience.
Steve Kerr has no vision, and it ruined this team
Our team was f-ing beautiful. We built a roster around a unique, unconventional idea and played winning basketball. Players bloomed under the system because it maximized their talents, not because it padded their stats. We weren’t building in the mold of a winning team, we were breaking the mold. People say you can’t win in the playoffs with the style we played but we did, and we came close to going all the way.
Everything hes done wrong has come from a lack of vision and an overall inconsistency. He failed to get a pulse on this team and couldn’t realize how perfectly they all complemented each other. The Suns were a great idea that Steve Kerr couldn’t comprehend, and he tried to change them into something that made sense to him.
A couple things I have a problem with. Saying that Amar’e would be at Duncan’s or KG’s level had he come up under Pop is ridiculous and 100% bullshit, just stop with that.
We drafted Lopez with Speights and McGee still available because he was a better fit for our “system”. Lopez couldn’t even get minutes ahead of Lou while Speights and McGee have shown actual game, yet this is somehow a win for Kerr?
You know your GM sucks when one of his best moves is the mid-season acquisition of Stromile Swift.
Kerr could have also drafted Mario Chalmers
since, you know we dont really have a backup point guard, or really ever have had one? Chalmers would have been a great fit for us, since he played in an uptempo system in college at KU, and also is a great defender. Too bad we had no need for him, and let him slip all the way to the 2nd round. He now starts in the backcourt with D-Wade.
by Aluminum Foyle on Apr 13, 2009 8:24 AM MDT up reply actions
Oh please,
was ANYONE watching or associated with the Suns organization clamoring for Mario Chalmers? Nope. And neither were the fans or executives of a whole BUNCH of teams. Hindsight is 20/20, man.
But
the thing is, they should have been. That’s their job. It’s not like Chalmers was some unknown, he was expected to be a first rounder and it was a pretty big surprise to all when he dropped to the second round. No one expected him to be this good this fast, but everyone knew that he was a solid, defensive-minded pg with the talent of a first rounder who had already proven that he could hit a big shot when it counted.
The fact that many other teams made the same mistake doesn’t excuse the Suns, it just shows that there’s are alot of mediocracy to go around in front offices everywhere. It’s just a little worse for the Suns since Chalmers fit one of their biggest needs so perfectly.
I’m not crucifying Kerr over failing to pick Chalmers though, I think he’s been middle of the road. Definitely not the best, but there are worse GM’s out there.
Foyle and Worthy is right
It is Kerr’s job to identify who are the young talents worth drafting, rather than bank all his hopes on an unpolished PG from Europe who lacks playing experience.
so you're saying Lopez and Dragic > Chalmers ?
by Aluminum Foyle on Apr 14, 2009 9:10 AM MDT up reply actions
Which one do we need most?
I tot it’s a PG who can run the defense and play defense?
Or was it a foul like no tomorrow Lopez for a Suns team which has no tomorrow?
Dragic is SG or combo guard material and we have JRich and Barborossa for that already.
Nuggets fan here
I’m going to speak my opinion though I am admittedly uninformed because I haven’t followed the suns season closely this year.
I can’t comprehend any sort of case for defending Kerr for his embarrassing stint with that team thus far. At the time he came in I’m not sure you could have asked for a better situation to go into. I didn’t agree, but I can understand the firing of D’antoni after the first round playoff loss. Disappointing, but hell – try getting into the playoffs six straight times and getting knocked off in the first round :)
Even though Mike didn’t get a full season with Shaq, what happened this year was inexcusable, with none of the mistakes are even remotely justifiable. If Phoenix really wanted to be a defensive minded team, then Kerr should have done the hard thing and got rid of Nash. I know that would have been tough for the fans and franchise. Look what happened instead. When the road got bumpy Kerr did a 180 and got J Rich, giving up your best perimeter defender and a versatile great passing big in Diaw (remember his D on Parker in that 1 game they won last playoffs?) Now you have Nash and J Rich which I’m sorry, but that is probably the worst defensive backcourts in the entire league. I can’t say i was surprised when the wheels fell off after that.
Watching full blown panic mode set in after Porter went down was just sad. The half hearted attempt to bring back “the show” with Gentry in charge of a broken team seemed like a thinly veiled marketing plan for fans who had already been shamed. I guess now it seems Shaq is done and who knows what will happen with Amare, where this team is going or if they have any plan or vision for the future at all. Kerr should be ashamed to show his face to Suns fans and NBA fans in general. He’ll continue to run and hide from any tough decisions the franchise needs to make in order to right itself
There, I said it. If I sound ignorant then so be it but I believe that. He should have never left TV because I thought he was a great play by play guy, and I can’t stand tools like Kevin Harlan. I read somewhere he still lives in San Diego so if thats true then I think there’s some basis to question his commitment to the franchise. Go Nuggets
Trading Steve Nash,
just to make sure a defensive philosophy is “instilled”, would have been the worst move Kerr could ever have made as GM. There is no way that he trades Nash and keeps his job, at least not during this season. Despite his obvious defensive deficiencies, Nash is still a HUGE fan favorite here, and his loss would have hurt the Suns in numerous ways, the most obvious of which would have been current and upcoming season ticket sales.
And yes, Diaw would be nice to have now, but he really wasn’t doing squat for the Suns at that point, in addition to the fact that he was unhappy. Who could have forseen that Amare would go down for almost half the year?
You're probably right
Just to explain myself, the reason I said that is because I personally never believed the Suns would remake themselves in a Spurs model while keeping Steve Nash. That team was built a certain way around the brilliance of Nash’s game. It was impossible to win without him playing well which was a blessing and a curse. If you’re truly going to change your identity then that era should have died with D’antoni and not been carried on in a half assed fashion with the same players and a new guy in a suit to bear all the blame.
It was a disservice to Nash and the Suns fans to make such a weak effort in changing the fundamental pieces of the team, yet somehow expect success for simply installing a new system from an unproven head coach and his staff. Kerr simply passed that burden of changing the culture to someone else as he couldn’t handle the responsibility of changing a good team in the effort to make it better. How could you defend his J-Rich trade? What did that player bring to the Suns that they desperately needed, more 3 point shooting? Please, it was an epic failure on all counts. Richardson’s legacy in Phoenix will be the breakaway 360 dunk FAIL and the Roger Mason three pointer. Merry Christmas, Jason.
I am sorry if I sound harsh but as a Nugs fan, I am a huge supporter of the Suns culture that defined that teams greatness and it’s impact on basketball. When Denver began to remake itself we followed the Suns model for building an up-tempo style with unproven talent to draw the fans in. Of course we weren’t as successful and when the time came, our management parted with some of our best players and pillars of our team in a huge gamble to keep enough scoring talent but improve us defensively. It was hard for the fans but sticking with the coach’s vision and team goal paid off by improving every year. Sharing that blame of first round failure every year eventually made our team stronger and able to fix it together.
I don’t think Kerr is a leader that franchise can rally around towards a common goal. I’m not trying to sit on a high horse and take credit for Denver having a good regular season, I’m just trying to point out how terribly Steve Kerr failed in a gross fashion I find insulting to Suns fans and basketball fans in general for that matter
by runningdonut on Apr 14, 2009 1:08 AM MDT up reply actions
The trade
Also, it seemed Bell and Diaw were unhappy with Porter’s system so who knows what would have happened if they were around when Kerr was eventually forced to can him in favor of Alvin Gentry. I just don’t see how you give Kerr a pass for wanting to keep that big ticket-filler in Nash while simultaneously blowing up the successful parts of the team around him.
by runningdonut on Apr 14, 2009 1:22 AM MDT up reply actions
Everyone was unhappy with Porter's system, even Nash.
But Bell and Diaw were scapegoat for speaking out and as a way of deflecting attention from Kerr and Porter.
That is why I have been against JRich’s trade from the start. You don’t trade your best defenders for a poor defender and expect to play real defense.
You will only get a team trying to play real defense.
the sad part about that trade is...
the same ppl picking on Kerr, are many of the same ppl on this site, who approved the J-Rich trade or atleast didn’t mind the trade. I thought it was an awful trade from the beginning, and it made no sense whatsoever. If that trade had not gone down, we would not have forced to start Matt Barnes, who everyone seems to hate a lot around here, which I don’t understand, since he makes the league minimum, and has been an important and versatile player for the team. More ppl here have bashed Barnes than any other player, and the guy has actually played hard.
by Aluminum Foyle on Apr 14, 2009 9:16 AM MDT up reply actions
I spoke against JRich from the start questioning the lack of defense from this trade
Barnes has played hard but his shot selection is inexcusable as he always try to shoot his way out of a slump, rather than use his athleticism to get points in the paint.
If his shots are not falling, why can’t he pass, rebound and defend harder when he has people with much high FG% like Nash, Shaq (career high) and even Dragic?
Regardless of what you say...
Barnes has played well this year. Who else makes the league minimum, and means as much to their team as Barnes. Barnes is a streak shooter, who was supposed to be a vital part of our bench, instead he has been a much maligned starter in the opinion of most Suns fans. Remember, his big game against the Lakers, in which he led the team to victory without Nash. Yes, his shot selection is at times questionable, but if there is something that he does better than anyone else on the team, it is feeding the post, mainly Shaq. He is an unselfish player, who has the vision to look for his teammates. He also doesn’t let a bad shooting day get to his head, he has the mentality of an elite player to keep shooting, even if he isn’t an elite player. The guy has no fear, and I wish a lot of other guys on the team had his mentality.
by Aluminum Foyle on Apr 15, 2009 9:25 PM MDT up reply actions
Hill is also playing for the vet minimum and means a lot more.
But I get your point. I do miss Gordon Grisek and I’ve always felt that Michael Pietrus can play well on both sides of the courtn
One thing though
With all of the problems, the Porter regime, the Jrich trade, the Amare injury, the bad defense, blah, blah, blah, one thing is very clear.
The Suns missed the playoffs because they could not win 4 measley games against
Sacramento
Golden State
Memphis
Minnesota
All of which are on target to win about 90 games this season. All together.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
And none of that is Kerr's fault
I’m just sayin’…
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
Kerr's decisions made the Suns a 9th best team in the West
Kerr’s record:
2007-2008: First round exit
2008-2009: Can’t even make it to the first round.
That’s the fact.
How can anyone still defend him if he’s a real fan of the Suns. Fans of Kerr may be.
Not Kerr
I just said, the games against bottom feeders. How can you dispute that? It’s simple math. 4 more wins=playoffs.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
Under Porter? I didn't the teams played with their heart tho before the All Star?
I love the Suns but I really wish they played like the Timberwolves in Jan, Charlotte after the trade and Miami thoughout.
You may not have the best people or the most experienced but the joy, pride and hunger I see in these teams was why I love the Suns.
I have a feeling these vibes will never truly come back. And that’s the biggest shame of all…
Magenta, would you like to include any of the other FACTS along with that?
For one thing, the league doesn’t stay stagnant. Many other teams actually improved. Had we done nothing, we’d simply be the team that regresses because of age, inability to improve our roster, as well as other teams becoming more and more adjusted to our style, and hence better prepared to deal with it.
November 2, 2007 Los Angeles Lakers at Phoenix Suns -——— 119-98 (L)
November 28, 2007 Houston Rockets at Phoenix Suns -——— 100-94 (L)
January 5, 2008 New Orleans Hornets at Phoenix Suns -——— 118-113 (L)
January 31, 2008 San Antonio Spurs at Phoenix Suns -——— 84-81 (L)
February 6, 2008 New Orleans Hornets at Phoenix Suns -——— 132-130 (L)
February 20, 2008 Los Angeles Lakers at Phoenix Suns -——— 130-124 (L)
We finished 0:4 against the Hornets, whom we’d have met in the playoffs any how. We got whooped by the Spurs, and couldn’t match against the Lakers. These were all the HOME games last season. Do you really think we’d be routing them in away games? Given our penchant for disappearing in the playoffs, having weak mental focus etc?
You can cross off those last 2 games on your list.
Because the Hornets game was the day of the trade (so we were without Marion/Shaq). And the Lakers one was well after the trade.
I also feel the need to add some games to your facts, just to be fair.
November 2, 2007 Los Angeles Lakers at Phoenix Suns -——— 119-98 (L)
November 17, 2007 Phoenix Suns at Houston Rockets -——— 115-104 (W)
November 28, 2007 Houston Rockets at Phoenix Suns -——— 100-94 (L)
December 17, 2007 Phoenix Suns at San Antonio Spurs -——— 100-95 (W)
December 12, 2007 Utah Jazz at Phoenix Suns -——— 103-98 (W)
January 5, 2008 New Orleans Hornets at Phoenix Suns -——— 118-113 (L)
January 17, 2008 Phoenix Suns at Los Angeles Lakers -——— 106-98 (W)
January 31, 2008 San Antonio Spurs at Phoenix Suns -——— 84-81 (L)
Fan skeptics are the ones with the weak mental focus
POINT 1
Just because certain teams keeps beating you does not mean that you have to change the team philosophy utterly. Teams like Hornets gives championship teams like Spurs hearburn all the time.
And I think a lot of sports commentators have made it clear that the Suns defense before the Marion trade wasn’t actually above average in the NBA
They could have explored incremental changes by trading for defensive wing players like Ron Artest who likes to shoot and defend. There were other bigs to be had.
Why trade for a player that makes total changes to your team play?
But the fact remains that despite the difficulties that the Suns had with certain teams, the team were the West’s best team before the Marion trade, as they still found ways to win.
And that’s what made the Suns a championship team that wins and plays deep into the play-offs.
That’s the key fact that Sun sceptics fail to see. The Marion trade was a desperation move, partly fueled by short-sighted suns fans, which nearly helped fuel a desperation trade for Amare this year.
Point 2
Take a look at the Lakers and Suns funs should feel ashamed of themselves for doubting their team.
The Lakers were run out of town by the Suns in 2006 and 2007 but did they change their philosophy?
No, they traded for a piece that enhance their team play, instead of damaging or reversing it.
That’s why the Lakers are winning. The team and their fans did not lose their faith and philosophy.
We did. That’s why we had a first round exit last year and we miss the playoffs these year.
Anyone defending decisions that lead to these 2 dissappointing exits aren’t be that real.
We lost the faith in our team which kept on winning
Point 3
If the main criticsm is that Suns can’t play enough defense to win, why trade a way pour best defenders for poor defenders like Shaq and J Rich
Aren’t those rooting for the trades slapping themselves in the face?
If you want the team to play defense, then trade Nash. He should be the first to go.
Teams with PGs like Deron and Chris Paul are hard to defend because they play both ends of the court and they decide the team play.
You are not going to convince the Suns to play better defense if Nash doesn’t buy it.
And from what I saw, he still iosn’t buying it this year!
Point 4
The one with the weak mental focus are the Sun skeptics. Before our beloved Suns threw in the towel by maintaining pole position in the West race, Suns fans fans have already already written the team off.
And that’s the key fact. And a shameful one at that.
Fans of teams that win rings, even when their team stumbles, continue to have faith in their team to come back and make a run for the ring.
How tough is our team if our fans continue to be yellow-livered sissies?
I don't have a problem with the criticisms of management
Because I too feel they have been inconsistent with philosophy, which has to a large extent led to our downfall. However I really have issues with the way you’re re-creating the past our of romanticised ideas. It was not that rosy. We were beating on all the sub-par teams and getting routinely crushed by elite teams. We were “progressing” in the playoffs because back then, the West was not as tight. When we went to the WCF, there were only 3 teams of real calibre, the Suns, Spurs, and Mavericks. The others were all watchers/bystanders. We progressed “far” but really, all we beat up on were lousy/crappy teams that were just in there for the sake of being in the playoffs. Last season, there were a lot of tougher matchups, and teams greatly improved by trades such as Celtics, and Lakers were at unprecedented heights; no other teams had been this strong for arguably, the past 5 seasons, since the Shaq-Kobe Lakers. In addition, a lot of the mid-range West teams like Rockets, Jazz, and Hornets were really shaping up to be a good challenge, although not genuine title contenders yet. That is why the Western Conference is a lot tougher and more mature than the one our run-and-gun Suns were beating up on. The league has improved. The Suns have deteriorated. It’s a toxic recipe.
When a team keeps beating another team, it’s not coincidence. It’s about matchups. If you actually watch the games, you will notice that the Hornets were in control almost all the time. Chris Paul was threatening to score or create a scoring play every single possession against Steve Nash. And Steve Nash was badly harassed by the quicker, more athletic Paul on offense to make a tangible difference. An average of 5+ turnovers against the Hornets and Chris Paul is NOT a coincidence. And since you should more or less admit that Steve Nash is the offensive engine that the Suns ran on, you would realise that Chris Paul dominating Nash meant that they were totally in control. This is exactly the way that the Spurs shut down the Suns. By using Bowen to shut down Nash, and exploiting our inability to counter-exploit the mismatch with our SF guarded by their PG, the Spurs managed to grind us to a halt just about every time.
Why do I feel that the run-and-gun Suns had close to no chance? Because of the aforementioned reason. Steve Nash was getting stifled by Bruce Bowen, so the whole Phoenix offense grinds to a halt. In addition, the Suns defensive philosophy and team mentality is built upon the form of its de facto leader, Steve Nash, ie soft, weak, poor defensively.
Whatever you wish to conjure out of a hat, the fact remains. I watch the games. I see the truth. I state the truth. That’s all there is to it. Sure, Kerr has done a bad job. J-Rich is a complete and utter bust and he creates the problem of our overcrowded 2-Guard slot. Porter was a terrible choice. It is horrible hypocrisy to keep Steve Nash and yet claim that you want to improve your defense. Amongst the 30 starting NBA point-men, Steve Nash is the runaway leader in the “worst defender” standings. Kerr should have made personnel moves that reflected the philosophy which he claimed he was enforcing. Trading Marion and Bell, who have big reputations, is a two-sided thing. Locker-room poison/chemistry issues aside, they were grossly overrated as defenders. Marion was a good defender, but his dwindling athleticism and reduced effort were all too apparent. You learn this by WATCHING GAMES. He had to go, and shortly after he left, he had injuries for about 30 or so games, and has never returned to anything close to his former level. This was a case of a guy being overrated because his surroundings made him look good.
Again, I have no problems with criticising Kerr’s personnel moves with regard to his philosophy. My only beef is how you are creating an unfair comparison with a past which never existed. This “dominant, championship contender” which you mentioned, never existed in the eyes of people who actually watched the Suns games. Yes, some Laker fans actually believed Kobe could win the championship with Smush Parker and Kwame Brown as his starting teammates. But they’re Laker fans. Suns fans usually are more intelligent, and more realistic. We had it good, we were strong. But we weren’t this awesome, dominating machine like the picture that is frequently painted by reminiscing Suns fans.
By the way
A lot of commentators are really stupid.
Let’s see, I watched around 60+ of the Suns’ 82 games. So unless the Suns happen to defend well only in the games I miss, then yeah the joke’s on me.
Here’s what happened in the 07-08 season prior to the Shaq trade.
Marion was significantly slower, putting in less effort, and didn’t seem to have his hops.
Phoenix can’t play man-to-man defense.
Amare Stoudemire gets backed down by Mehtmet Okur, Andrea Bargani, and dunked on. I’m serious. It actually happened. Stoudemire was routinely massacred in the post by even the softest of “big men”.
Anyone can drive past Steve Nash.
No one is afraid of Steve Nash.
When Nash is guarding them, opposing PGs have monster nights. Why? Because Nash can’t defend the drive. The drive opens up their jumper. Steve Nash doesn’t contest their jumpers. They get on a hot streak shooting open jumpers and scoring in the paint. They score more, the Suns team tries to go to a zone to defend dribble penetration. Stoudemire plays the worst help defense possible. He leaves his man to stray into the paint, and yet manages to stare blankly at anyone driving in and do nothing.
Bell can barely contain his man. In the case of an athletic isolation-style player. You can safely bet that Raja Bell is helpless to stop him. It makes it a lot easier for Ginobili/Kobe to drive on Bell when the help defense is Stoudemire and a 6’7 Marion who’s running in from the perimeter to try and contest the layup.
The team gets ripped apart defensively because of the mismatches at just about every position.
Post-scorers just score over Marion’s head effortlessly. He’s a “good defender” but not good enough. He has his good days, but are his good days more of the opposing scorer having a bad day, or him playing tight D? In addition, we often use Marion on the perimeter because of Nash’s deficiencies.
When Marion is on the perimeter, who is going to rebound?
No one, that’s who. Nash isn’t going to be boxing out opposing big men and fighting for rebounds. Bell is lanky, weak, and can’t jump. Stoudemire is never going to box out, and anyone over 6’6 seems to outmuscle him on the defensive boards.
It all becomes a vicious cycle. It’s easy to drive in. That forces the Suns to collapse. Shooters become open. Suns rush out to cover shooters. That opens up the drive. Bell and Nash can’t keep up with anyone off-the-dribble. The interior defense is pathetic. The post defense is poor because Marion is under-sized, Stoudemire doesn’t try, and Marion is usually on the perimeter anyway. The perimeter defense has Nash, and a pathetic interior defense which encourages slashing. Do you see where this cycle goes?
The Suns were by far one of the bottom 5 in realistic-defensive ability, in my judgement.
Most of your TV commentators can’t tell the difference between Luke Walton/Jordan Farmar scoring a layup, some have never heard of a floater, most of them have close to zero basketball knowledge, or completely irrelevant or illogical opinions. They don’t have knowledge on NBA history, they get player histories wrong, player stats wrong, player traits wrong. They’re crap. If NBA commentators have said that the Suns were above average on defense, then it probably just proves my point that the Suns defense in that era was so bad it’d be hard to be worse.
Where are your facts on defensive efficiency?
The Suns before the Shaw trade are above average in the league, not bottom feeders like what you claimed. “The Suns’ defense really started to go downhill when Kerr traded his best defender, Shawn Marion, to Miami in order to acquire Shaq last February…”
Table fopr defense for 4 years are here:
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/john_schuhmann/04/01/suns_demise.numbers.game.20090401/index.html
Btw, Cp3 gets beat by DWill and jazz all the time.
But does the Hornets blow up their team play? Or does that make the Jazz the better team?
No. In this league, there are teams that have your number all the time.
I don’t see teams beat by the Spurs try to be a second class Spurs wanabe. They just try to play their system better through complementary moves, not desperation trigger trades.
Do also note that the teams that beat us on a regular basis had better individual players i.e. Boston’s Big 3, CP3 while ours players are not top tier, even considering Nash.
We could have drafted better and kept key players whom we needed like JJ, a real franchise player “we could have won with JJ!”, and KT a reliable defensive big.
Blazer fan
Kerr was not a good GM by any means, but the Suns front office had been done a terrible job until then.
-Signing Q-Rich
- Not drafting Deng or Rondo
- Signing Banks
- Letting JJ go
- Signing Diaw that contract.
You guys were doomed, Kerr just speeded the things up.
Uh, you're overlooking a lot of great moves they made
Drafting Amar’e when no one else wanted to make the gamble on him
Signing Nash back through FA
Signing JJ in the first place
Getting Diaw and a first round draft pick when we traded JJ
by hcblankscreen on Apr 14, 2009 3:19 PM MDT up reply actions
So you're content with mediocrity?
Yes, they drafted Marion, Amare, traded for JJ, and signed Nash. But after 2004, name one great move the team has made, other than signing Grant Hill. If you are happy with acquiring Diaw for JJ, something is wrong with you. Because that trade only amounted to one good year of Diaw and Robin Lopez. I’m sorry that was a bad deal.
The best deal that has been made in the past few years here, has been the trade for Shaq, and the jury is still out on that one. We drafted nobody who is worth a damn, except for those who were sold off or traded on draft night.
Basically what happened is, the Suns started constructing a huge project, and were almost done, but they never got the necessary materials to finish it off. When they had the opportunity to do so, they decided to give it away, in hopes of making it payoff with they had. Now the wrecking ball is coming to implode this project.
by Aluminum Foyle on Apr 14, 2009 7:19 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm not defending or happy about any of these moves
I just don’t like when people only present the facts that support their argument. We’ve got a great front office and I think blaming them for the GM’s mistakes is pretty lame.
About the JJ trade, had Atlanta not lucked into the top 3 in the 07 draft we could’ve had Jeff Green, Brandan Wright, Joakim Noah, Hawes, Thaddeus Young, Julian Wright, Stuckey. I’m not saying they would’ve used the pick, but for a trade where we didn’t have the upper hand they made a pretty good deal.
by hcblankscreen on Apr 15, 2009 12:34 AM MDT up reply actions
The front office is more than just the GM
David Griffin, the current assistant GM, was a part of Colangelo’s front office. Before being promoted he was responsible for finding free agents and draft picks, some of which were JJ, STAT, and Nash.
by hcblankscreen on Apr 15, 2009 12:52 AM MDT up reply actions
Oh, I thought you were talking about Sarver or Kerr
Coelango’s admin wasn’t error free but I think he and his staff did a above average job…
A great front office...
would have finished the job, and would have put a superior team together than the ones we have had to witness. Under proper Suns mgmt, this should be a team with multiple championships, instead we’re a former contender that is falling apart, and about to start rebuilding.
by Aluminum Foyle on Apr 15, 2009 9:34 PM MDT up reply actions
I am not looking forward to this rebuilding.
And will we all have the patience to see it bear fruit?
I see a few years of avoiding luxury tax, rathere than build for a championship under Sarver.
+ 1
Foyle, agree.
JJ plays hard for offense and defense while Diaw is a role player, regardless of how he may be.
Can you imagine how tight our perimeter defense could be with JJ, Marion and Bell?
All we needed to do would be to get a defensive and athletic big that can rebound, block and guard other bigs?
Instead we threw away our defense in an attempt to be bigger or stronger or rebound better inside and we do a crap job at that.
So our interior defense remains porous and our perimeter defense is heavily compromised by the trades.
Setting aside our play-off record (non-existent under Kerr), how can anyone defend such a situation as ideal or better than the Suns before the Shaq trade.
The jury is already out, went for a night cap and passed out with regards to Kerr’s decisions.
MJ's Bulls took 7 years to win and we gave up on our team after 4 - Nice
We Suns fans better learn the virtue of patience becos u can forget about seeing a championship team or a play-off team that can go deep for the next 5-10 years.
We brought this on ourselves.
What are our options?
Tank for the next few seasons? Bad idea, we have no picks left and no super star will want to come to such a team.
Try to get into play-offs? We may manage that but we will be like Denver aiming to avoid a first round exit for years.
Get a better coach? We should aim for Boston’s Tom Thibodeau while Gentry takes assistant coach. He has the ring to convince the bets to listen. Gentry is way too nice as can be seen by his way of handling Barnes. He’s like George Karl before this season. But what are our chances of bidding for him when as many as 8-9 teams are looking for better coaches and many have young talent worth grooming. Our best talent is one-eyed gorilla who thinks the sky’s the limit for his B-rated rap career “oops, Amare I love ya but sometimes I’ can’t keep defending ya”
Trade for picks with our vets? That’s the only way we can do it. But can we fans handle that and not lose the faith in our team? Our church here doesn’t seem that big on believers. I see just high rollers and poor gamblers…
And that’s our 4 paths to glory. I know they are high risk or unfeasible. But what are our choices?
What?!
You argue on this whole thread that Kerr probably shouldn’t have restructured the team to focus (or at least attempt to) more on defense, and then you suggest bringing in Tom Thibodeau as head coach? If anyone would change the structure of the team, it would be him…the guy’s a defensive wiz! Not that I have any problem with that, but your argument seems a bit contradictory…
I argued the whole thread that kerr's actions made no sense
Kerr and his supporters are the ones slapping themselves in the face.
Kerr said we need to play better defense but he traded our best defenders away in Marion, Kurt Thomas, Bell and Diaw for players who play poor defense. He got more than enough fan support cheering those trades as our defense took a dive as compared to previous years:
If you really want to play our team to play defense, you need a proven coach with a ring to be able to manage our vets and guide our noobs.
Kerr wanted D Antoni to add Tom in the first place and Tom’s defensive plays work well because he factors team play and individualistic super star play in his schemes. But D Antoni didn’t. I seriously don’t think that he did not want to play defense but the fact that your assistant coach helped led a championship to a ring may be too much for his ego.
Porter has never won a ring or coached a championship team and his thinking is rigid. Playing more defense to him means playing Detroit defense which lives and dies by the mantras that we don’t need super stars. Our team are led by stars, even if they are fading ones or under-performing ones.
Playing defense needs to take into account player’s skills, strengths and weaknesses to evolve a system that work naturally, while removing players who can’t play enough defense, not the ones who really played defense.
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