Suns fans' quest for a monster...
by watdogg10 on Apr 16, 2009 12:13 PM MDT
66 comments
The History channel has a brilliant show running now (yes – I watch the History channel) called MonsterQuest in which teams of scientists, trackers and sometimes complete nut jobs get together to find proof that fabled beasts exist. The teams use all of the newest technology from infrared video to motion censored cameras to aid them in their quests to find everything ranging from Bigfoot to Nessy to the Chupacabra. While the show provides awesome stories from eye witnesses and some intriguing evidence, the beast is almost always left undiscovered (I did see one episode where they actually found a type of shark thought to exist only in deep arctic oceans swimming in a relatively shallow lake in Canada…but I digress). Although, the show ultimately disappoints my desire to see these mythical beasts, I continue to watch and be absolutely riveted by the whole thing. Why? Because I want to be watching when the beast emerges and everything that I’ve been waiting so patiently and watching so intently for actually pays off. In that moment I will feel like I was a part of it – like I earned the right to see it. Yes, if they ever discover Bigfoot, it will be all over the internet and easily accessed by anybody and everybody but I believe the moment will feel a little more special to me.
Since 2002, Suns fans have been a part of a different type of MonsterQuest. We have seen more than enough evidence to convince us that somewhere a beast is lurking and that at some point this monster is going to appear and wreak havoc on everything in its path. However, for all the evidence that we have seen, the beast remains mostly hidden - only allowing quick glimpses but just as quickly as it appears…it’s gone again. Amare Stoudemire came into the league as a young kid straight out of High School. His troubled past struck fear in the hearts of owners the same way his disregard for the rim struck fear in opposing players. Ultimately, eight teams passed on the man-beast and he fell to the Suns with the 9th pick in the 2002 NBA draft. Amare’s rookie season brought with it the Rookie of the Year honor and hope that this kid might push the Suns into title contention. STAT pulled down a Suns rookie record 21 rebounds in a game against
In his third season, Amare gave us the best evidence that this dude was going to be a superstar in this league. That postseason, Stoudemire averaged a Suns record 29.9 points in 15 playoff games and averaged 37 points in the conference finals vs.
Then, as all things must, the beast adapted to its environment and changed. Amare came back from surgery with a whole new set of tools. He unleashed his midrange jumper and softer touch around the rim and was named to the All-NBA first team because of his offensive dominance over the rest of the league. While this was by far the most successful comeback from a once career-threatening surgery, the Suns ultimately fell short in the playoffs when they faced the Spurs yet again (thanks to David Stern and his staff) and Suns fans began to grumble – like they somehow deserved more than a team that was consistently going to the Western Conference Finals and contending for the ultimate prize. Evidence of the beast was rapidly cast off as myth and Amare and the Suns were scrutinized more than ever. The next season, even though the Suns were once again on pace to be one of the top seeds in the playoffs, discouragement and frustration set in and Shaquille O’Neal was brought in to try his hand at discovering and unleashing the monster within Amare in what was initially known as the Amare Stoudemire project. The project got off to a good enough start as Amare thrived with Shaq as his running mate for the final month of the season but another loss to the Spurs in the first round of the playoffs would ultimately unleash a different beast…Shaq’s ego.
At the start of this season, Shaq was no longer concerned with Amare’s progress but instead with Shaq’s legacy. Shaq wanted the ball and with his demands came a clogged lane and the monster retreated deep into the dark as we were left with an Amare who didn’t know how he was supposed to handle Shaq’s presence. Shaq was getting numbers and Amare (along with a number of other players) were getting frustrated trying to “fit in” to the system Terry Porter designed around the big cactus mostly because it wasn’t bringing success with it. With each game, fans were left wondering if they would ever see the beast again or if the once feared monster was gone forever. Then…a glimpse. As Porter left and Gentry came in, Amare showed signs that he could thrive with Shaq on the floor in the right system…that the beast might have a chance to reveal itself – however, the glimpse as always, was quickly gone when Amare had to shut it down due to a very delicate eye surgery.
After 7 years of waiting, many fans are ready to give up hope of the monster ever really revealing itself. Amare is no longer thought of as the untouchable piece that the Suns have to build around but as the disappointment that the Suns should give away to the first bidder. Over that span, Amare Stoudemire has proven himself as a GREAT offensive player. If defenses go big on him, he can step out and hit the midrange jumper or take his man off of the dribble. If they go small, he can post them up. Yet, for all of his offensive greatness, his lack of defensive intensity turns fans off. Again, the glimpses he has shown in the past are not enough to keep fans satisfied and hopeful for the future. I, on the other hand, propose that we wait a little longer before giving up in our quest to find the beast within Amare. This season was one of turmoil and change. Between coaching and personnel changes to go with numerous injuries, the Suns season was in flux all year. I propose that we continue the quest for one more season and give Amare and the Suns a chance to play an entire season under one coach and one philosophy and see what comes of it. Why? Because I want to be watching when the beast emerges and everything that I’ve been waiting so patiently and watching so intently for actually pays off. In that moment I will feel like I was a part of it – like I earned the right to see it. Because when that beast does show itself, it is a scary thing…just ask the candy man.
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Even if you did find Bigfoot or the Yeti..
No-one would believe you. They’d call you a fraud, a fake and delusional.
The same is true of Suns Basketball. Even if the Suns did win a title, you’d still hear the scribes in the media pontificate about how you can’t win with run and gun, and how defense win championships, and every other tired cliche about the game.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Apr 16, 2009 12:45 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
As for me..
I’ll be in the Mojave Desert, flashing the sun with a broken mirror, trying to flag down a passing mothership, so I can get off this God-forsaken rock.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Apr 16, 2009 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
i love the history channel. and the discovery channel. and the national geographic channel
I'm just like you, only ten times better.
by noonoo on Apr 16, 2009 1:24 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I know...
It’s how I can tell I’m getting older – MTV and VH1 have been replaced by History and Discovery…and I hate the music kid’s listen to these days! I mean seriously, what’s up with that robot voice!
by watdogg10 on Apr 16, 2009 2:36 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
older? I’m 21 and for the last 5 years I have only been watching discovery, animal planet, and nat geo, if I even switched the tv on, which is very very rare
Once upon a time the Suns got out on the break... and along came Steve sucKerr
by Murcy on Apr 16, 2009 4:45 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
i’m 22 and i know nothing about this robot voice you speak of. but yea, i hate mtv and vh1
I'm just like you, only ten times better.
by noonoo on Apr 16, 2009 7:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now there’s rumors of a Shaq-for Tyson trade.
Of course, there’s now way this is happening..
by Bostwik on Apr 16, 2009 1:56 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
your posts
own other posters posts. or something. nice work wattie
by M-A-Nthefkup on Apr 16, 2009 2:05 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Ding, ding, ding! Give that man a prize!
At the start of this season, Shaq was no longer concerned with Amare’s progress but instead with Shaq’s legacy.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
by JSun on Apr 16, 2009 2:41 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Waiting on Amare....
I’ve been there but at this point I think time may have run out. With his contract situation the Suns either need to commit and extend or trade for max value. And by max value I mean the max value the market will pay.
The longer the wait the harder it is going to be to move him. At the trade deadline he will have just a few months left before having the option of opting out. That means you pretty much have to do a sign and trade which puts him in the drivers seat. In fact, the best trade value window has probably already closed.
It’s decision time on Amare. Personally, I’ve seen enough. For all his skills and desire to be the best which I totally admire, he’s mentally soft and lacks the will to over come adversity and play through unhappy situations.
I just don’t see that improving so I can’t see giving him a big extension. If he would take 3 yrs / $12m per year…sure. But that’s a low ball offer.
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Phoenix Stan on Apr 16, 2009 3:15 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
You're wrong about Amare wanting to be the best..
if he did, he’d work much harder on his defense and other aspects of his game.
Amare’s a narcissist. All he wants is to be the man. There’s a big difference.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Apr 16, 2009 3:38 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
well.....
I agree and disagree….I think Amare does want to be the best…but simply lacks that mental approach to get there…it’s kind of funny and sad that porter – if amare actually wasn’t so full of himself and listened to porter – probably would’ve greatly improved within a year or more….but Amare, like much of the team gave up on porter – maybe never even gave him a chance….
I think we have issues all over – not just ownership and direction – but personel…
by be-the-ball on Apr 16, 2009 4:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
But he gave up on Porter..
precisely because his scoring numbers were down..
Whatever you might say about Nash, he at least is willing to sacrifice his game for the good of the team. IMHO, statistically, Porter cost Steve about 2 assists/game, and possibly 2 or 3 points/game, just by running a scheme that took the ball out of Steve’s hands.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Apr 16, 2009 4:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
So why not let his contract run it’s course and if he opts out and doesn’t accept a low-ball offer he can try his luck elsewhere (although in this economy we saw just how anxious teams were to give max contracts to players like him when the Suns were shopping him at the trade deadline) and use the money to go after one of the 2010 free agents. The Suns would be better off going this route than giving him away for something less than fair value. To me, it makes more sense for the Suns go after an all-star to replace Amare than bring back a couple of role players because we saw just how important Amare’s scoring is late in games when he went down and we were unable to pull out several close games. Besides, like I said, I haven’t given up on him just yet – he’s still a rare talent and just needs the right players around him – which is why I would much rather see us give up Shaq for a long defender who doesn’t clog the lane – Tyson Chandler anybody?
by watdogg10 on Apr 16, 2009 3:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed, for the most part..
Amare, though, is going to exert his contract option, so he’s going to be here for the next few years.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Apr 16, 2009 4:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
this team has to dump someone
We can’t keep all 3; Nash, Shaq, and Amare, because of the financial disaster it would cause
by Funky Flapsack on Apr 16, 2009 4:30 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Honestly...
Is a team going to go farther with a healthy Shaq or a healthy Amare? The Amare Stoudemire project fell apart as soon as Shaq’s ego became inflated when he got healthy again but a healthy Shaq is not going to carry a team to a championship anymore. We gave him the chance early in the season and while his numbers were impressive they didn’t carry us to anything. Amare had trouble finding his place in the Shaq offense because Shaq clogs the lane and limits a lot of Amare’s weapons. This is why Amare was so frustrated – because what they were doing wasn’t necessarily working and he wasn’t able to do much to change things. Nash was the same way and ultimately, that’s why Porter was ousted because he wasn’t doing the things necessary to win with the group he had.
by watdogg10 on Apr 16, 2009 4:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amare could have
Don’t defend Amare. You’re right, Shaq slowed the pace and made Amare not as effective scoring-wise. So what? Shaq also clogged the lane on defense (even if he’s horrible at showing off of screens), took the bigger centers on defense and was exactly what Amare had wanted. Amare could have become a KG-like beast and even something greater with that crazy athleticism of his. He SHOULD have been the best weakside defender in the league. If Chris Anderson can block 2 plus shots a game in less than 21 minutes of PT without a true center behind him, Amare should have been able to at least get 3 blocks a game. Instead, he failed to box out. He failed to show on screens. he failed to help defend. He failed miserably at defense, something he himself prior to the season had said he had worked on and was dedicating himself to. He said he wanted to be like Ron Artest…lol. Instead, he got frustrated with Shaq clogging up his lanes and pouted and totally neglected that side of the court. Amare is immature and not very intelligent basketball-wise. When he can grow up and actually learn the game of bball, that’s when you’ll see the monster unleashed. He’ll be 27 next year, so there’s still time for everything to click, but with Shaq as his mentor, it may never happen.
by Dodgerblue15 on Apr 16, 2009 5:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
So get rid of Shaq...
and bring in a defensive minded player who won’t clog the lanes on offense AND who can guard the pick and roll AND possibly teach Amare how it’s supposed to be done (he’s never really played with a good defensive big man a la Marcus Camby) as opposed to getting rid of one of the BEST offensive players in the league. How is that not the best option? Shaq was a great story this year and has been a great member of the community but he is clearly looking to get out (judging by the comments he has made about wanting to go to Dallas and talking about New Orleans) and history tells us that when he wants something he will do anything to get his way with “no regard for human life.”
by watdogg10 on Apr 16, 2009 5:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the $20 Million question
How and to which team do you trade Shaq ? The only team that was interested, the Cavs, now has a legit shot at the title without him.
If they win the ‘ship, do you honestly think they’d trade for him ? If they lose, do you think Shaq could stay healthy enough, away from Phoenix, to contribute ?
Even if we do manage to get a bite for his contract, what will we get in return. To be honest, there are a lot more players as good as Amare than there are who are as good as the Big Geezer.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Apr 16, 2009 6:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who can the suns get?
Realistically, nobody will want Shaq and if they do, they’ll give back bad contracts and ho hum players. The Lakers got Lamar Odom, Caron Butler and a one-legged Brian Grant for Shaq towards the end of his primacy. The Heat got Shawn Marion. Another year older, and obviously the target for a large part of the blame for the Suns collapse this year, along with that $20 million salary, what realistically are you hoping for? Especially considering Sarver being strapped for cash and looking to pare payroll, not add. There’s plenty of powerforwards who would excel playing with Steve Nash in an uptempo game. Likewise, there’s plenty of forwards who could excel playing as Shaq’s sidekick (who knew Lou was a player?). Amare is the franchise’s best hope to score some real talent. As much as it sucks to ship out your young “superstar” it’s probably for the best. Otherwise (and I felt this when Kerr made the trade for Shaq) the Suns need to trade Steve Nash. If they would have dealt him at the beginning of the season, he would have fetched a lot more than he will now…So, once again, Amare is the best chip the Suns have left. Just hope Kerr doesn’t go all in one a pair of deuces…
by Dodgerblue15 on Apr 16, 2009 6:18 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
two of the three have to go
i was talking to our season-ticket agent who said that season ticket renewals this year are currently around 58 percent. last year at this time they were at 92 percent and 95 percent the year before that. he told me the suns were likely to shed payroll significantly if renewals dont pick up, since that’s the revenue source for salary.
by ArizonaCactus on Apr 16, 2009 6:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is the question...
However – his $20 million contract is an expiring contract which is why supposedly the Hornets would be interested in sending Chandler. While it is a lot of money, it would be a lot of money coming off of the books the next year which just happens to be 2010. I don’t really know who would give what but it’s not like Amare was getting a lot of takers when the Suns were almost (supposedly) trying to give him away. I’m just saying, if I had my preference, Amare would stay and we’d get a long defender for Shaq. As for the renewals, the whole league is seeing this meaning that all teams are going to want to shed salary but the salaries are guaranteed contracts which is why we’re heading for a lockout in ’11.
by watdogg10 on Apr 16, 2009 6:58 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just can't figure out who realistically we'd get in exchange for Shaq..
You say Chandler, but he’s only going to make $11.8M next year, and he has a player option for the following year, vs Shaq’s $20M. I don’t know who else on the Hornets roster would either make sense (either to contribute or just to make the salaries match) or they’d be willing to give up.
Here’s the thing, though. Once Shaq’s current contract expires, he becomes a free agent, and one who I’m guessing is not going to command more than $10M/year on the open market.
If the Suns wanted, and given the current window of opportunity left for these players, it could actually be possible to sign them to 3 or 4 year contracts @ say $7M or $8M/year, where they would get more money over the long haul, but less per year, and would help with the cap.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Apr 16, 2009 7:41 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amare has a post up game?
Really? Oh, if by post up game you mean a pick and roll with Nash and wait for Nash to deliver a dime, then, yeah, I guess he’s got a great post up game.
by Dodgerblue15 on Apr 16, 2009 5:31 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
No, by post I mean...
That he can score down low when guarded by smaller opponents. Amare has great footwork and touch around the rim and yes, he can post up smaller defenders:
by watdogg10 on Apr 16, 2009 5:35 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which begs the question:
Who isn’t able to post up against smaller defenders, seriously? And by smaller we obviously mean shorter, lighter, and weaker in terms of strength, right? So who the heck in the NBA isn’t able to post up on smaller defenders? Just about every basketball player from Billups posting up on 6’0 185 lbs guards to Kobe posting up on smaller 2 guards and Pierce posting up on smaller guys, does the very same thing. The point of posting up is usually to exploit a size/strength/skill advantage in the post to create an easier/interior scoring opportunity.
Even Doris can score in the post “against smaller defenders”.
by felixthm on Apr 16, 2009 10:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that goes with...
his ability to score at will against larger players. Amare IS one of the best scorers we have in the NBA – that’s not even an opinion, that’s fact. My point is that Amare creates problems for any team in the league because of the ways he is able to score the basketball.
by watdogg10 on Apr 17, 2009 9:46 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scoring the basketball
clearly isn’t an area the Suns struggle with….even without Amare
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Phoenix Stan on Apr 17, 2009 11:52 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
They sure struggled...
Late in games during several close contests this year without Amare (or when they tried to force it into Shaq on every possession early in the year). They need his scoring more than they need anything from Shaq. I know you’re really down on him and I have been back and forth on this but I just think if we let him go just for the sake of doing so, we’re going to regret it.
by watdogg10 on Apr 17, 2009 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love(d)
Amare and really really wanted him to do well this year.
At this point it’s all about giving him that max extension he wants.
It’s Joe Johnson all over again. Do you give him more money then you think he’s worth or let him go. Suns were dead wrong on JJ but the thinking is the same
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Phoenix Stan on Apr 17, 2009 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
It’s a gamble either way – fortunately, nobody here is going to have to make the final decision.
by watdogg10 on Apr 17, 2009 12:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure if you remember...
but there was a whole lot of trouble in Atlanta, after the JJ signing. It worked out ok in the end, but early on there were lawsuits, & everything. There were many people in Atlanta who thought they’d overpaid for JJ.
With Amare, the sitch is a little different. The Suns are in a much stronger position, because of the fact that Amare tends to get seriously injured, and because he doesn’t have “the right stuff” to be a true leader.
His contract options for 2009-10 are for two years. After that, I expect the Suns front office to make a sub-max offer to Amare, say in the region of $10M, which would be a little more than he’s worth, small enough to help with the cap, but big enough to scare off all but the most needy suitors.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Apr 17, 2009 2:51 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
But JJ has brought the Hawks to another level as a true all star.
by magenta on Apr 17, 2009 6:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's not get carried away here...
You should examine their record more carefully: Atlanta was exactly 1 win better than us this season, and they played in the East. Also, while they’re in the 4th slot this year, they’re 12 games behind the 3rd place team (which is a bigger gap than the one between the Suns and the Nuggets, who are the 2nd seed in the West).
I’d also point out it took 3 seasons for Atlanta to get to 37 & 45, which got them an Eastern Conf. 8th seed, and a 1st round exit, in the 07-08 playoffs. The Hawks have merely gone from being total crap to mediocre to ok in 4 seasons. A good trend, but they’re not even close to being able to contend.
So when you say another level, understand that the bar hasn’t been raised very high at all, and doesn’t come close to approaching the level of the Wilkins era, which is the Gold Standard for that organization.
As for JJ, even though he has in fact flourished in Atlanta, I’d still point out that at the time of the trade, there was a whole bunch of buyer’s remorse. People forget just how ugly it got.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Apr 17, 2009 10:52 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would help if he has a centre coach or a centre willing to teach
Shaq is doing such a fine job by teaching Robin Lopez to foul hard.
Rather than foul less.
by magenta on Apr 16, 2009 8:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amare plays above average defense and is considered a better PF than most
Compared to Rashard Lewis, Carlos Boozer and David Lee, Amare is considered an upgrade. Don’t get it from me:
http://www.thirdquartercollapse.com/2009/4/13/832489/taking-a-look-back
And unlike Nash, Amare has proved that he can continue to grow better and address his
Please don’t give me that excuse that Nash has sacrificed his game for the Suns this year.
He has always sacrificed his defense for his offense. We need him to sacrifice more than that if he is playing another year.
Nash learns how to pass properly in half court sets without fancy passes, especially since we are scoring far more points in the paint, rather than around the perimeter, which incidentally means we are also making our wing players very redundant or we have more than what we need now.
Nash’s turnovers got out of control in the beginning of this season because of his inability to pass well at a high court to a really big guy in the middle.
LB and Grant Hill did a better job as passing in the hlaf court and that was a key reason for the Sun’s fine run under Gentry in the beginning, finishing with that superb game against the Lakers WITHOUT Nash.
We Suns fans need to decide whether we are going to rebuild or let run and gun go for another championship run with non-existent defense and ageing stars who may break down in 6 month’s time.
The issue with Suns fans and management is that we don’t really know what we have before we lost it.
I know full well what we will lose with Nash but gambling our team’s future against his age, his back problems, defense issues and his declining desire to win games is a Russian Roulette situation.
“Mentally readying for gun fire from Nash’s supporters”
by magenta on Apr 16, 2009 8:41 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Nash needs to learn how to pass properly in half court sets without fancy passes
I know you all love his flashy passes : P
by magenta on Apr 16, 2009 8:43 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey, I've said the same things about Nash's inability to make proper entry passes
For someone who can squeeze a left handed behind the back pass between 3 players to a cutting Amare, shouldn’t a simply lob/bounce entry pass be part of the fundamentals of the skill that he’s supposedly a master of?
I love Nash’s offense. I insist he is the best shooter in the league, and he has really been great for our franchise. Sadly, the key words are has and been. We can let him stay with us while we stock picks and rebuild to let him end his career here, but I just cannot envision our team competing and contending with him anymore.
by felixthm on Apr 16, 2009 10:42 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
i was gunna make a new fanpost
but ill just keep it here. I think out of the 3 options (1. being trade shaq 2. trade amare 3. keep both and figure out something else) I really DO NOT care which one goes does. There are pros and cons to each move.
Obviously the tyson deal(if it happened) wouldn’t be the worst thing ever but to be honest the Thunder DID reject that trade cuz of a toe. Regardless, I would love him here, for the defense, and for the nash-chandler lobs. I don’t see any other deal that gives us what we want/need in a center moving forward. Big Z? Ericka Dampier?
I mean where exactly would shaq go it just doesn’t make a ton of sense. Not only that as we all know and constantly rehash, 20MILLION in cap space dollars in 2010, plus if we dont extend amare etc. I’m not saying that we are going to get wade/bron/bosh/whatever, but if we have a good shot at sucking next year do you really want to NOT have the option of throwing gobs of money at someone like Wade or whomever?
If Amare stays, some of us will like it some won’t. Regardless, everything from him will be picked apart(and sometimes rightly so). I thing I do know is that he will still dominate the offensive end(DUH) and that he is not going to turn into KG all of a sudden. It comes down to:
1. can we get a HIGH pick
2. can we get a mobile half competent on defense big
in that order exactly. If we can’t get something that IMPROVES the team, keep em till he expires let him try out for us and see what hes go left. It’s not like hes a cancer on the team, he just can’t D up.
I do love the idea of trading jrich for another big and a pick or something like that, but only because i feel he is easily replaceable. I think we all know that barbosa can totally start if we need him to, in fact I think alot of teams would not be used to it(scouting reports etc, for the last 4 years when barbs comes in you know whats coming and what to watch for, if he stars and we roll out Nash/Barbs/Shaqtus/Amare/Hill teams will have to gameplan for nash/stat PnR, The ‘’Dump it down to the Big Fella’ play, the Hill slash n cut or midrange iso jumper, not to mention the random nash offense and then you have barbs stretching the floor or STREAKING the break. On the bench you have :
jrich trade draft pick1/Dudley/Lou/Dragic/Our Draft pick/Lopez( as well as whatever we might get for jrich and if barnes stays him as well.)
So like everyone is saying 1 probably has to go, and I just feel like the odd man out should be Jrich. We are not very far guys I mean christ the number 2 seed won 8 more games then us. EIGHT MORE GAMES.
Do you really feel like denver is better than us even as currently constructed? I don’t see it… Portland is damn good I will say that Broy is the man and Nate Mcmillan has done a sick job there. But when I watch them I honestly just see our team with better halfcourt D and no shaq. They D up, they Run ALOT but its mostly fueled by defense and what is wierd is they are one of the slowest PACE teams in the nba. But when you watch them it always seems like they are running. I think we will be pretty good next year no matter what happens as long as amare AND shaq are not both traded. One or the other and I think it’ll be ok. Keep em both we are in the same situation as last year but with a full year of gentry/ass patting/high spirit teamwork/insert nash cliche here.
Shaq looks good. Nash didn’t look horrible. Grant played 82 games. Barbs is Barbs. We have a semi decent bench that is sorta fun to root for. Amare is the question mark now which is wierd but if you don’t get a pick just keep him and let him dunk the ball and shoot jumpers and say FU to the league and roll out again.
My god this post was all over the place and if you read it all you must be as baked as I am.
=\
by M-A-Nthefkup on Apr 16, 2009 11:36 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I just don't like the idea of
a trade happening and this seasons failure being blamed on personnel. It was a fuct season AND amare and barbs went out during the crucial playoff stretch. I want to see revenge. Or I want to see them fail and say we just couldn’t do it.
by M-A-Nthefkup on Apr 16, 2009 11:38 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
You did a good post. It's good to just let your thoughts run without preconceptions.
We sold a lot of picks, so we can’t tank our way to ghet a Tim Duncan rook “haha take that Spurs fans”
We can cut a deal with Wizards becos of their need for vets. More here:
http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2009/4/16/840179/suns-fans-quest-for-a-monster#comments
We have too much scoring and not enough hustle and defense.
At the very least he can help guide the rooks to play smart defence, block better and more importantly focus on a few high % shots. I love his alley-oops.
by magenta on Apr 17, 2009 12:50 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
We need a defensive or big man coach like
Marc Iavaroni who knows the team and players.
He is also a defensive and preparation expert who is also experienced in working with big men.
by magenta on Apr 17, 2009 3:26 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Shaq's ego?
Wasn’t it Porter who wanted to make Shaq the center of the offense?
Anyway, I’m starting to think more and more that it might be better to just keep things as is for the Suns and just let all these contracts expire. If they do get rid of Shaq, they’ll probably have to take back more long-term salary for mediocre to decent players.
by Worthy J. on Apr 17, 2009 2:43 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you saying...
That Shaq doesn’t have an ego? If so, just talk to the folks in Orlando…or LA…or Miami.
by watdogg10 on Apr 17, 2009 3:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh no
I’m well aware that he has the biggest ego in basketball, I’m one of those folks in LA afterall. It’s just in this instance, I seem to remember Shaq being more than willing to be the Big Role Player last year and then when Porter came, he seemed to be looking to change the offense into a Shaq-centered one without any encouragement from Shaq himself needed.
I’m sure Shaq didn’t exactly argue with him, but doesn’t the responsibilty of determining roles fall on the head coach? Not sure how much you can blame Shaq for this one.
by Worthy J. on Apr 17, 2009 4:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats
what im sayin, like how are we helping our cap situation by trading shaq. It doesn’t compute unless its a team WAY under the cap (20 mill shaq vs 11 mill chandler does not work obviously). Which teams UNDER the cap want or even need shaq?
by M-A-Nthefkup on Apr 17, 2009 11:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shaq...
Last year he came in deeming it the Amare Soutdemire project and was willing to play a role. However, when he realized that he was healthier than he’d been in a while he started demanding the ball (he came out publicly saying he wanted more touches at one point when Porter was making some sort of effort to incorporate parts of the run n gun). Yes, Porter carries some of the blame (he did get fired after all) but the ego, as it always is, was present this season, too.
by watdogg10 on Apr 17, 2009 5:24 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
He also realized
that the Amare project might not be as feasible as original assumed…we don’t know that since Shaq has never said anything bad about Amare but he’s also not said anything good about him in a long, long time. I don’t think you can just put that on Shaq feeling/playing better.
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Phoenix Stan on Apr 17, 2009 5:30 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look at his past...
Penny Hardaway
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade (on a lesser scale)
He starts by saying how great they are and ends by hating them for taking focus away. Judging by his past, comments made throughout the year and his increasingly poor shot selection as he got more and more comfortable with his health, I think it’s a pretty safe assumption that Shaq switched to “me” mode this season.
Shaq is one of the best big men ever but he is a destructive force. He’ll love you until he decides he doesn’t and then he’ll ruin you. He did it in Orlando, LA and Miami. It took a #1 draft pick named Dwight for the Magic to recover, the gift of Gasol for the Lakers to recover, and one of the single greatest seasons by 1 player carrying a team ever for the Heat. Now, Shaq is already talking about wanting to go to Dallas or proposed trades with the Hornets – clearly he wants to get away and if he doesn’t what is it going to take for PHX to recover once he leaves nothing in his destructive path?
by watdogg10 on Apr 17, 2009 6:06 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup...all pretty much true
but that doesn’t mean Amare is great just b/c Shaq has an ego.
I just can’t see giving Amare a big extension. There are no easy answers though. Glad I don’t have to lose sleep over this one…
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Phoenix Stan on Apr 17, 2009 6:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
stan
u summed this up nicely. shaq hasnt really said anything, just stepped his game up =\
by M-A-Nthefkup on Apr 17, 2009 11:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
i hate to say it wat
but I think without the ego we lose ten more games. The bad teams we DID put away were usually the diesel filled nights.
by M-A-Nthefkup on Apr 17, 2009 11:32 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
To get Tyson Chandler, we may have to take Peja
If we package Barnes and Shaq, we may have a chance. More on the trade mechanics in the last post of this thread:
http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2009/4/15/838348/what-are-suns-options-i-see-5
by magenta on Apr 17, 2009 7:18 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Wtf man, Peja is totally washed up
I never did like him. A guy who just shoots really well but can’t defend, rebound, make plays, or drive. And now he doesn’t even shoot that well anymore. He’s junk at 14 million.
by felixthm on Apr 18, 2009 12:02 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Taking on
bad long term contracts to “get rid of Shaq” would be a HUGE mistake and I don’t think the Suns would do that. Worst case (if you want Shaq gone) is wait it out one more year and free up all that space to be a buy in the 2010 summer of free agent love.
This is why I am not opposed to doing nothing this summer. Well, I would trade JRich for pretty much anything as long as it was cap space which is to say trade him for picks. I think he’s worth a few 1st rounders this year and in the future.
I would entertain offers for Nash and Shaq but they would have to be REALLY good.
Would the Knicks buy out Curry or Hughes to create cap space needed to trade us David Lee for Nash? I would do that….I think. Especially if you aren’t going to keep Amare.
I don’t know who would want Shaq but I wouldn’t ever take Dampier (ugh).
Chandler and if we could also get back Julian Wright is an interesting idea but it doesn’t work. It’s off by $4m AND it increases the Hornets payroll next year when they are trying to get under the lux cap line. So, like you said we would have to take Peja too which is not worth it to get Chandler who and opt out anyway after next year.
So basically, I am saying that I don’t see how any team could put together a deal for Shaq that makes sense unless it’s one of the 9 or so teams that are at least $10m under the cap and why would they want to spend their $ on getting Shaq for one season? I think he’s coming back and might even end up staying a few more years on a small “end of career” type contract.
The bottom line is, there are so many possible options and combinations of options that is really hard to predict or even suggest anything b/c you have no idea what the other teams want to do and how all the various offers fit together.
Tricky stuff….but I would no doubt make dumping JRich for cap space my #1 priority.
If you can save $10m out of his $13m then you have the freedom to listen only to great offers for Shaq, Amare and Nash and not be forced into dumping one of them for a bad deal.
Blogging Suns Basketball
by Phoenix Stan on Apr 18, 2009 9:21 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stan I agree but bad contracts are something we have to live with
Is it ok under NBA rules to do a straight up trade for Shaq with Tyson plus some Hornets picks i.e. the Marcus Camby trade was done only for picks?
Can Suns dump salary at the same time to free up cap space.
Btw, I dun think any super stars will want to come to the Suns in 2010. Fan support for the team is weak. We don’t have a play-off proven coach and I’m not sure is Sarver and Kerr are people the stars want to play for…
by magenta on Apr 18, 2009 7:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least the weather is nice...
Right?
by watdogg10 on Apr 19, 2009 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arizona has been heartbreak city for the last few years though...
Yes, I watched the Arizona Cardinals as well, at least for this season.
by magenta on Apr 19, 2009 9:15 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
But we have to make the salaries match
Maybe Sun’s med team can help him get back in shape as a 6th men…
by magenta on Apr 18, 2009 1:08 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
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