The refs are part of the game

by Seth Pollack on May 27, 2009 1:44 PM MST in Phoenix Suns Commentary

In a perfect world ever play would be called correctly. There would be no blown calls. A foul would be a foul regardless of who or when it occurred or didn't occur and the teams with the best records in the regular season would advance to the finals.

Is that really what you want from sports?

Sports is unpredictable and around this time in the basketball season, highly emotional. But let's not pretend that perfection is possible or even what we want. This game is played too fast and with too much contact to ever imagine a world where getting it right every time is going to happen.

The guys with the whistles are part of the game and they are what separates what we watch on TV every night and what goes on down at the local playground. Ok, maybe there's a slight difference in talent level too.

Get mad at blown calls just like you get mad at blown plays. It happens. And remember that it really is the rare case where the referee decided the outcome of the contest. I am pretty sure that LeBron still had to hit those two free throws with .5 on the clock to tie the game and I am fairly confident that Dahntay Jones tripping Kobe didn't cause the 18 rebound advantage for the Nuggets.

Yes, the calls could be more consistent and it certainly would be less frustrating if that were the case. I choose to watch the games for what they are and not for what they could be.

The only conspiracy going on is the league foolishly pretending that there's never a mistake made. They would be much better off embracing the imperfection that makes sports human and drop all this nonsense about even more instant replay use.

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A foul would be a foul regardless of who or when it occurred or didn’t occur and the teams with the best records in the regular season would advance to the finals.

I’m not sure how the second part follows from the first part.

But yeah, I would like the first part, that would nice.

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gils_Keloids on May 27, 2009 2:22 PM MST reply actions

yup

that was my point…

Blogging Suns Basketball

by Seth Pollack on May 27, 2009 2:25 PM MST up reply actions

I don't need the teams with the best records to advance to the Finals

I just would like fairly called games.

I also want world peace.

"This is not a game for boys. This is a game for men." - Phil Jackson

by Gils_Keloids on May 27, 2009 2:35 PM MST up reply actions

Yes...

I posted the conspiracy post – doesn’t mean I believe it. Amare did leave the bench and the Spurs did beat the Suns. Do I think the higher ups showed poor judgement in the decision? Yes.

That being said, the L did employ Donaghy and has not been transparent at all with their referee dealings which they promised after the whole scandal. They have refs in their employ who show proven records of bias towards certain players and teams, yet these refs are allowed to be a part of big games involving said teams. Also, the refs were just awful this year. I mean they were AWFUL! I don’t know what that military dude they hired to clean it up did, but it clearly didn’t help. Refs have been inconsistent all year and there have been very few cases of refs being held accountable for their bad calls. Look, I’m all for the human element and whatnot but something has to be done to uphold the integrity of the game.

by watdogg10 on May 27, 2009 2:34 PM MST reply actions

"Refs have been inconsistent all year"

and in doing so are consistent… :)

Blogging Suns Basketball

by Seth Pollack on May 27, 2009 2:44 PM MST up reply actions

We don’t have a refereeing problem in baseball or football. I watch all three sports and have never seen the game after game, week/month after week/month blundering that I’ve seen in the NBA, in MLB or NFL. It’s sad, and it really turns me off from professional basketball.

Take care of the little things, and the big things will take care of themselves.

by SunDolphin on May 27, 2009 3:02 PM MST reply actions

How is it possible that NBA refs are 200 times worse then college refs?

The league has to fix this.

by brian13 on May 27, 2009 3:18 PM MST reply actions

what?

you hear all the time about how Pac-10 refs for instance, are terrible. And in football, there are blown calls all the time, hence the incorporation of replay. Same with baseball

by Funky Flapsack on May 27, 2009 4:50 PM MST up reply actions

Pac 10 refs > NBA refs

and that’s whats sad.

by brian13 on May 27, 2009 5:01 PM MST up reply actions

I don’t think anyone is saying refs in other sports don’t make mistakes. Just a week ago the Braves lost a game because the ump called the runner safe when he was clearly out on replay, by a pretty good stretch. This would have been the final out but the umps view of the ball, the glove, and runner’s foot were obstructed by Chipper Jones at 3rd, and he made the wrong call.

Things like this happen all the time in baseball, but unlike in the NBA, they don’t happen all the time to the same teams on a nightly basis. There are 30 teams and maybe any two or three of them get screwed once in any given week. It’s random. In the NBA it’s a given, and it’s to the point that you can start betting on which teams it will happen to.

I just wanted to share that….

Take care of the little things, and the big things will take care of themselves.

by SunDolphin on May 27, 2009 5:54 PM MST up reply actions

I totally don't believe that

mistakes are made in all sports and they occur randomly. This time of year in basketball there are so many people watching every play (and with Tivo) and there are so many ways to spread the word about bad calls (twitter, blogs, etc) that it amplifies the effect.

Also, you can’t compare basketball with 10 guys moving at once and the ball flying around on each play with baseball were on any given play there is only one opportunity to make a call. It’s not even close.

In football there’s more going on and you do here about the refs all the time. Remember long people were talking about that Steelers catch in the super bowl? It happens there too.

It is part of the game and I don’t see how dwelling on it enhances the entertainment

Blogging Suns Basketball

by Seth Pollack on May 28, 2009 7:07 AM MST up reply actions

It is part of the game and I don’t see how dwelling on it enhances the entertainment

well, I don’t think anyone ever claimed that dwelling on blown calls enhanced their entertainment experience, on this thread, or um, anywhere. However, if the idea of sports is to see 2 competing factions compete within an impartial framework of rules, then it is human nature to dwell on an outcome decided by what appeared to be an unfair call.

In a sport where the calls are so inconsistent that a referee purposely throwing calls/games was indistinguishable from the other routine bad calls, I’d say that’s a problem. Think about that for a second..with all of the internal reviews the league claims to perform, what exposed Donoughey’s actions was not looking at his work, but rather external matters which forced him to fess up. And when the news first broke, the reaction amongst most people was not " I don’t believe it " but rather " it’s about time "

Look I think most ppl understand that the nature of Bball is such that it will never be 100%, and in the first 3.5 quarters, I think most ppl can live with that. But in the end I think ppl expect that for the investment of their time they want to be sure their team won or lost fair and sqaure within in the rules. Personally I say we take a cue from the NFL and give coaches 2 or 3 replay requests per game. It can’t slow things down anymore than the 5000 fouls per game we already have, and most importantly, it gives players, coaches AND fans a sense of accountability from the refs, of which there is currently none.

by Fritzy on May 28, 2009 10:39 AM MST up reply actions

I do agree

that in general the league should lighten up and not call so many fouls….they’ve cracked down too hard. That’s a systemic thing that can be fixed by the owners if they want to.

I do think it’s funny though that there was a time not too long ago when we (and I) wanted more things called so our free flowing fast team could be allowed to play pretty basketball without all the clutching and grabbing.

Blogging Suns Basketball

by Seth Pollack on May 28, 2009 11:30 AM MST up reply actions

Apples and oranges

I think most fans are upset about the multitude of flagrant fouls and technical fouls.

That’s different than demanding that karate chops to the forearms be called a personal (i.e., not technical or flagrant) fouls.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on May 28, 2009 12:47 PM MST up reply actions

What don’t you believe, that the Braves lost on a bad call or that NBA officials are either terribly biased or terribly sloppy? I’m not comparing the two sports, I’m comparing the two types of officials. NBA refs versus MLB umpires. In my book, the MLB umps are, for the most part, guys trying to do the best they possibly can, and NBA refs, for the most part, are inept.

I haven’t watched the playoffs but I did watch regular season games and most of the time I just got the feeling the referees were out there just to be out there and made no attempt at accuracy. NFL and MLB officials are held to a very high standard and if anyone says NBA officials are, too, I’ll disagree with them forever…until it’s true that they are. Does ANYONE in the league office care how the games are officiated?

Stan, also, are you implying it’s okay for the NBA refs to get it wrong because the NBA is a faster game and it’s hard for them to keep up with the pace?

The NBA officiating CAN get better, and until it does, THIS fan won’t trust the sport or it’s officials. I’m just happy it’s baseball season and can’t wait until the fall (GO DOLPHINS/IRISH!)….suddenly remembers when the refs screwed the Irish out of a win against USC a few years ago.

Take care of the little things, and the big things will take care of themselves.

by SunDolphin on May 28, 2009 3:38 PM MST up reply actions

Yes

Stan, also, are you implying it’s okay for the NBA refs to get it wrong because the NBA is a faster game and it’s hard for them to keep up with the pace?

That’s what I am saying.

It can get better. The league should CERTAINLY takes steps to train their refs better and hold them accountable. I am all for improving the system. Some what Simmons says makes sense but some of…I mean a penalty box? Really? (that was SVG’s idea).

I agree the league has gone too far w/ regard to playings reacting to eachother and the the flagrants to prevent flagrants. That can be fixed. But I choose not to let blown calls bother me b/c in the end, the best team almost always wins and in a 7 game series does.

Luck and chance are part of any team’s success. The ball bounces right or wrong. The player does or doesn’t get injuried. The call goes your way or it doesn’t. The unknown and randomness of these things enhances the experience. For me.

BUT, it is part of the game to miss calls and I don’t ever see that going away. The game is too fast with too many things happening at once.

Blogging Suns Basketball

by Seth Pollack on May 28, 2009 4:01 PM MST up reply actions

I can agree to that

I agree that it will always be harder to judge a call in the NBA because of its pace, but that should never be a reason to let the refs do whatever. Thank you for clarifying; now most of my own thoughts are clearer.

Take care of the little things, and the big things will take care of themselves.

by SunDolphin on May 28, 2009 5:41 PM MST up reply actions

Whats never really looked at is...

NBA betting in vegas has shifted from who is the better team to what referees are matching up with what team/players. In science we have indicators called keystone species. In sports we have professional betting. From what I can see based on how the professionals are betting (the ones that will still bet on the NBA) and how they reason the bets they are placing… the NBA needs to change and change quickly.

TO THE NBA - " Yeah, you have created a rift within me ; Now there have been ; several complications ; that have left me feeling nothing ; I might say, you were ; wrong to take it from me ; Left me feeling nothing " - Disturbed, "Numb"

by antiw0rm on May 29, 2009 6:41 AM MST up reply actions

The worst part is.

The league ignores this and refuses to answer to fans. As long as the international ratings are going up I guess they are happy?

by antiw0rm on May 27, 2009 3:32 PM MST reply actions

It's a business

They won’t listen until sales start to fall.

by antiw0rm on May 27, 2009 3:32 PM MST up reply actions

via Bill Simmons...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090513/part3

Back to your point about arrogance and sports leagues: Please tell me you’re following the current officiating debacle. The two most-watched regular-season games (both Celtics-Lakers games) were ruined by officials. Game 7 of a classic Boston-Chicago series was ruined by officials. The Mavs’ season was ruined by officials. There doesn’t seem to be any rhyme or reason to flagrant fouls and how they are called, just that the ongoing indecision has compromised the quality of the games. Bill Kennedy had such a heated incident with Doc Rivers in March that both were fined; somehow, Kennedy worked two Boston playoff games (both must-wins on the road). Dallas went 1-14 in its past 15 playoffs games that Danny Crawford officiated; somehow he worked one of their 2009 playoff games (inevitably, a loss for Dallas). Joey Crawford got suspended two years ago for baiting Tim Duncan, then blew last season’s season-ending Spurs call … and somehow, he worked a must-win San Antonio playoff game in 2009. And the number of competent refs is so bad that Violet Palmer worked a Round 2 game last week. For a league that vowed to clean things up post-Donaghy, why haven’t we seen any real results yet?

And how can you explain a system that relies on officials in their 50s and 60s — well past their physical peak, with undeniable deterioration (however slight) in motor reactions and eyesight — to successfully perform in a profession that hinges solely on motor reactions and eyesight? Shouldn’t this job be performed by people in their 20s, 30s and 40s? You’re telling me Dick Bavetta (69), Bennett Salvatore (59) or Joey Crawford (57) can run around for 150 minutes, then remain at peak physical capacity to make a game-changing call on a split-second reaction? My father is two years older than Salvatore and we won’t let him push a baby stroller for three blocks. I don’t get it. How would you revamp this moronic system? A little birdie told me the NBA’s crew chiefs (the lead official for each game) consist of referees who were hired at least 10 years ago. In other words, the league hasn’t hired an official competent enough to run a game in more than a decade. How is this possible? You grew up in a country that figured out health care; figure out the NBA’s officiating crisis for us.

I wanted to just link to it.. but it’s not the easiest to find.

by brian13 on May 27, 2009 5:04 PM MST reply actions

That's the part I hate

The only conspiracy going on is the league foolishly pretending that there’s never a mistake made. They would be much better off embracing the imperfection that makes sports human and drop all this nonsense about even more instant replay use.

And that’s why I can’t let it go so easily. It’s a lack of honesty. If they’re not going to be honest about this, why should we trust they are being honest everywhere else?

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on May 28, 2009 12:44 PM MST reply actions

+1

Take care of the little things, and the big things will take care of themselves.

by SunDolphin on May 28, 2009 3:39 PM MST up reply actions

Can I +1 my own quote?

Blogging Suns Basketball

by Seth Pollack on May 28, 2009 4:01 PM MST up reply actions

+1 this

It’s a lack of honesty. If they’re not going to be honest about this, why should we trust they are being honest everywhere else?

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on May 28, 2009 5:14 PM MST up reply actions

this one is for Stan.

Stan you have never seen a momentum swing based on 5 consecutive questionable calls at some point in the game? Like the article said and I have been saying for a long time… There are several different sets of rules during a game. There are player vs Ref rules, there are player vs time rules, there are team vs ref rules, there are circumstance vs player rules… And a few others. How can this not affect the outcome of a game if the rules by which you are playing the game are different or undefined based on different combination of elements? I’ve watched our beloved Suns drive to the lane to get fouled with no call over and over and over again to the point where they stop and start shooting three point shots. I’ve watched teams play the same defense as their opponent only to get called for fouls enough times that they start literally letting the other team score and hoping to make it up on the other end. It has gotten out of hand.

You can’t tell me this stuff doesn’t affect the outcome of games and logically believe that.

by antiw0rm on May 29, 2009 8:09 AM MST reply actions

How the teams

react to it has a bigger impact then a few blown calls…

I am not saying the ref situation can’t and shouldn’t improve but I do believe that the team that plays better wins. They overcome bad calls, missed shots and big plays by the other team.

Of course, there are times when a call changes a game. Or a series of calls. But on balance (and especially in a 7 game series) the better team – meaning the team that plays better, not the one w/ the most talent – wins.

Blogging Suns Basketball

by Seth Pollack on May 29, 2009 9:44 AM MST up reply actions

I will give you that.

That they do win on average. But what about the games that are truly influenced? Should we forget about those games? To me every Suns game is important. I’m not willing to sign off on a few just because of on average there is no change in outcome.

But I am willing to say there are some things that are tough to call…

I’m not completely damning the job they do and saying we should throw in the towel and whine about every bad call. But we should (and I think you agree) demand more out of an entertainment we all invest money into.

If I wanted staged wrestling… then I would change the channel. But I want great games with great outcomes. The kind of games I can tell my kids I got to see when they grow up and come over to watch the game. Currently in my generation every thing is tainted with “what if the ref did or didnt make the call”. I don’t think it used to be like that.

by antiw0rm on May 29, 2009 11:05 AM MST up reply actions