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No Franchise For Old Men

"Can you get me out of here?" (AP Photo/Paul Connors)

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"Can you get me out of here?" (AP Photo/Paul Connors)

 

So, Shaq is gone, Steve Nash is having dinner with Steve Kerr but flirting with the mustachioed Italian at the next table, and Grant Hill is talking to other teams.

I have no problem with any of this.

This team was not winning a championship as currently constructed.  Barring several miracles, it was not winning a championship in the next 3-5 years.  Why on earth has the front office's free agent priority been to sign or extend two players who are on the wrong side of 35?  Not 30, like Marion or Turkoglu, but 35, 5 years BEYOND the universally recognized "slide" age for most professional athletes.  Exactly what kind of re-building process was Steve Kerr hoping to initiate with a couple of geezers running the offense?

Nash and Hill are a couple of class acts.  Their presence is appreciated both on and off the court for the level of leadership and competition they bring to the game.  I love watching them play and have been more than satisfied with their tours of duty for the Phoenix Suns.  But it's time for them to go.

In addition to being old and in Nash's case, expensive, neither one of them is a "proven winner."   Neither has played on a championship winning team or even led a team to the NBA finals.  The only Suns player to have done that got traded last week.  And neither one of them has the skills to miraculously transform our also-ran franchise into a winner next year.  The best we could hope for from either of them is to shepherd this young and fragile squad through what is now going to be an obviously painful reconstruction while ably filling their roles at the 1 and 3.

Let Grant Hill go chase a ring with the Boston Celtics.  He's earned that "right" in his star-crossed career.  He should have been one of the G.O.A.T.s but injuries de-railed that dream.  Steve Nash, for all his prodigious gifts as a point guard has never established himself as the alpha dog this team has sorely needed and passively torpedoed at least one head coach in the process.  Despite the gaping holes they would leave on the floor, it's time for the Suns to look forward and re-configure this franchise around a more youthful core.

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Well said

the only thing I would challenge is that IF you can get Nash and Hill on the cheap (especially Nash for 3 yrs at under $10m you still have plenty of cap space in 2010 AND you have Nash to help attract guys to Phx.

How many times have you heard players say they are excited to play with Nash? I have to think that the opportunity to play with him for even two years would be a big attraction to a big name like a Bosh or Dirk…

by Phoenix Stan on Jul 5, 2009 1:04 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but...

I completely understand the attractiveness of having Nash running the offense for potential free agents, but hasn’t he basically priced himself out of a “cheap” contract? And as much of a miracle worker as Aaron Nelson has been, how much longer can Nash’s back last (a point I didn’t even get to in my post)? No matter how well-conditioned he is, gravity always wins.

by Mike Lisboa on Jul 5, 2009 1:08 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Always, I think the fact we had Nash this long without a major injury was basically us playing with house money.

No day but today

by RyanMarcus on Jul 5, 2009 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I tend to agree, but i think we are in a tough spot. I’m perfectly OK with rebuilding now, but I want our 2010 pick back someone how. If we aren’t going to be good next season, and I am imagining this probably going to happen if we lose Nash, Fine. But the only thing that rewards a bad season is having a lottery pick that we wouldn’t have.

No day but today

by RyanMarcus on Jul 5, 2009 1:05 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

The 2010 pick

This drives me crazy. Yes, the Suns absolutely need a 1st round pick in 2010. That needs to be a part of any deal that involves Nash, Stoudemire or Richardson. Obviously, I lean more toward trading Nash.

by Mike Lisboa on Jul 5, 2009 1:10 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed. But it seems like the teams that would be suitors for Nash and Amare, GSW and NYK don’t have their 2010 picks, is this true?

No day but today

by RyanMarcus on Jul 5, 2009 1:15 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

For another post

But I think if they haven’t already alienated him, the Suns should extend Amare (bad knees, eyes and all) and perhaps not be so hot to move Jason Richardson. I know I’m advocating blow-up without including a re-build plan and suggesting the Suns roll in to the 2009-2010 season with basically their Summer League roster and Amare. Untenable. I’ll get around to some kind of future later this week.

by Mike Lisboa on Jul 5, 2009 1:37 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ya jeez, that is a scary thought haha

No day but today

by RyanMarcus on Jul 5, 2009 2:51 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Amare was sitting next to Sarver @ the Mercury game.. he's fine.

For Amare, there are two issues:

  1. showing him the money
  2. him being the alpha dog on this team

If the Suns address those two issues, everything will be cool again.

If I were Steve Kerr, I’d basically talk to Amare and tell him that the Suns are going to take a year to rebuild, but that their long term plans to contend for a championship revolve around him. He should explain his concerns re: Amare’s history of serious injury, and his desire for Amare to take a stronger leadership role on the court.

IMHO, Amare’s one of these players who play better when they’re clearly at the top of the food chain, and just making that commitment might just be enough to get more consistent play from him. With Nash, Shaq & Grant here, that was likely a problem.

Then, I’d either let Steve Nash go, either by not exercising his team option, or sign and trade him for players and draft picks. Either way, a new pg/pf combo needs to be built, and the time to start is now. I’d go for a trade for a decent, if unspectacular, point guard, and also try to grab someone like Ruby Fernandez.

I think it’s futile, if not downright delusional for the Suns to position themselves for the 2010 free agent free for all.

They’re much better off, imho, to build a decent team following the blueprint of the championship Pistons, where you try to raise the overall quality of the team by upgrading each position as much as you can without busting your budget, unlike most teams which have 1 or 2 stars, and a bunch of scrubs.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Jul 5, 2009 3:11 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Amare as Alpha

I buy that argument. As much of a knucklehead as he can be sometimes, I think if they say to him “Look, we’re putting the franchise on your shoulders,” he’ll respond that by raising his game. If only his basketball IQ were so easily raised…

by Mike Lisboa on Jul 5, 2009 10:02 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Amare as Alpha

I see Amare getting what he wants as Alpha Male. And then the team loses a lot and he makes excuses: “management isn’t surrounding me with good players.” or other excuses.

by eagleheart on Jul 5, 2009 10:43 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see that Kerr has any alternative..

Even the Warriors didn’t want him. The Warriors. Then again, as a cynic Bay Area resident, I’d take the Warriors rejection as inherent proof that Amare is worth keeping.

Given that Amare is untradable for comparative value, and that Nash & Hill are close to calling it quits, Kerr really doesn’t have any choice except to build around Amare, with all that drama to deal with.

That means, though, that the other players he does get, have to be able to deal with him. After the success of the 04-05 season, without Amare, Trix became more and more disinclined to do that, and that’s why he was traded.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Jul 6, 2009 3:54 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hell yeah

When the Warriors said no to that I totally changed my mind, if only in hopes that Amare will come out and crush everyone and make GS look retarded. I think it’ll be interesting to see how he responds. If he goes out and plays like I’ve always known he can (which was why I was so frustrated last season becuase he didn’t live up to that, or even close) then I think we can get into the playoffs even if we have what we have. He’s the game changer, the season changer.

But if he’s not pulling down 10 boards and getting almost 30 points a game, then God help us, we’re screwed.

Take care of the little things, and the big things will take care of themselves.

by SunDolphin on Jul 6, 2009 9:25 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Suns, well, Sarver and Kerr are making things really bad.

They don´t want to realize that it’s time to rebuild. While all teams are doing the duties, the Suns don´t do anything.

I’m surprised to see that the Suns want to sign Hill instead Ariza, who is a much younger player, with experience in a winning team, that can do the same things that Hill and is cheap.

Nor do understand the decision of Ariza going to a loser team (the Rockets are a loser team at this moment). That means that very well could have signed with the Suns if we had made an offer.

Nash’s decision to wait to see how to rebuild the team doesn´t seem acceptable to me because is conditioning every decision and we don´t know if finally stays or goes.

The decision not to choose Jrue Holyday in the draft is another mistake; it´s always easier to sign a SF or PF than a point guard.

I also read that people talk about to sign a 2010 top free agent (Bosh, Nowitzki), but Bosh is no better than Stat and Nowitzki have 32 years and his best time has passed. If we have to sign a 2010 top free agent has to be Wade, Lebron, a player who makes a difference.

Etc, etc, etc, etc

by matrix7 on Jul 5, 2009 2:27 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I totally agree on how Nash is handcuffing the team with his ‘wait and see’ approach…..trade him and get someone who can play D, be the floor general and a draft pick(s)-the draft will be better in 2010 and we’ll want a piece. We are not going to win without getting key stops in the postseason and when you can’t defend the pick and roll you aren’t going to win playoff bball. I feel skipping on Holiday could haunt us, hopefully dragic ‘is who kerr thought he was’ when he drafted him! Can’t wait to see him in the summer league with progress/confidence etc…..i really like the idea of sending Nash to NYC for Lee and their pick….Lee would be great with STAT and (hopefully) tyson chandler. Thats a front court that can score, d-up and rebound.

by gwillis on Jul 5, 2009 4:25 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

+100,000,000

Nash should have been traded for a while now. He is great, but no longer what the team needs. I really am not looking forward to all of the career games that opponents will have against him this season.

by Gorilla Game on Jul 6, 2009 12:37 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I also totally agree with all the points that you have raised here! We needed to draft a point guard and wake up and realize that Nash is getting old, Dragic and Barbosa are still “project” PG’s. I think that they didn’t draft Jrue Holiday cause they figured they were getting Curry with the proposed Amare trade. Its time for the Suns brass to wake up and start rebuilding instead of just clinging onto the “old” days. Otherwise we are in for a rough start to the next decade which will be just like the start of the last one was…losing to the Lakers and never getting out of the first round of the playoffs….oh wait, our future was already mortgaged because Sarver didn’t want to keep Kurt Thomas and have to pay luxury tax so in the process we lost our draft pick for next year as well! In addition, the team that could have won it all brought on Shaq which somehow was supposed to demonstrate to the fans that Sarver is willing to pay luxury tax now, well then why didn’t he feel like spending that money before by keeping Thomas (instead he ended up paying more tax for Shaq). We all tend to forget as well that it was this same management who decided not to offer Joe Johnson a contract extension. Bean counters should leave the wallet open a bit longer to see what might develop by shelling out some cash. Sure its not my cash so I guess I have a different perspective….

by Rishmo on Jul 5, 2009 9:31 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

bosh is better than stat

i dream of signing bosh and wade. only way possible for that is if we ride out this season as is and let amare opt out, nash go, and trade rich for exp contracts(first round pick would be nice but kerr wont be able to swing that – look at shaq trade)

by cap space on Jul 5, 2009 2:39 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Only way we can do that

Is travel to another nice alternate dimension in which the globe actually is predominately orange.

by egp the great on Jul 5, 2009 9:07 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah good point, unfortunately, Phoenix is not usually a top basketball destination. That’s why its imperative to have some type of successful team out here in the desert otherwise you can forget players like Grant Hill, for example coming over and playing for much less than he is worth just to win a ring! This is why the team cant be totally dismantled, otherwise the rebuilding process will take about 5 to 7 years and fair weather Suns fans will jump ship which will lead to a dwindling revenue base!

by Rishmo on Jul 5, 2009 9:35 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

Phoenix IS a destination...

When you look at how many former and current players call the Valley home, I think Phoenix is actually a pretty attractive destination. It’s not LA, NY or Miami, but it’s pretty good. The problem is the program…

by Mike Lisboa on Jul 5, 2009 10:05 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

 this assertion is very questionable

by matrix7 on Jul 5, 2009 2:55 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

i know

but arizona is a very attractive place for athletes. im not saying bosh and wade or nothing. thats just the best option among many others. there is going to be so many attractive free agents next year. Doing it my way we would be 40 mil under the cap and have our mid level exception. thats 2 super stars + a solid starter or 1 superstar + 3 solid starters. i just like our chances better completely rebuilding rather than adding small pieces (like barnes) to this team thats just about lost all hope. taking advantage of next years all star cast of free agents just seems to me the easiest way to rebuild.
we will be competitive with steve and amare next year
then sign some fresh players
and be competitive for years to come

by cap space on Jul 5, 2009 4:24 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

I enjoyed this.

Take care of the little things, and the big things will take care of themselves.

by SunDolphin on Jul 5, 2009 5:45 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Excellent post -

I think Kerr was hoping for a soft-landing or a smoother rebuild. He knows you can pretty much ride Nash and, to a lesser extent, Hill, and have a decently mediocre to good team.

Question is why would Nash and Hill be down for that? PHX doesn’t seem to have much to offer right now.

Who are these guys again?

by ZonaFlash on Jul 5, 2009 7:25 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

I mentioned

in another post, Suns need to get younger and get No. 1 draft picks. The West is to deep for this team to make a run.
 The real issue is that Kerr and Sarver are calling the shots. How in the world do we trust this man to pull the right moves? This franchise has treated No. 1 picks as cap relief and trade pieces, and now it is coming back hard to bite them.
 I would trade Nash and Amare. Let Hill move on, Boston would be a great fit for Hill.
 This franchise is in for a bumpy ride for the next few years, it won’t be pretty.

"Have You heard of the Boom on Mizar 5?"

by Grockcubs on Jul 5, 2009 7:58 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Sarver is at fault for the draft trades, not Kerr. Everything Kerr has done has been for the best interests of the Suns on the basketball court. Not everything he’s tried has worked, but dont’ lump him in with Sarver. That’s not even close to fair.

Take care of the little things, and the big things will take care of themselves.

by SunDolphin on Jul 6, 2009 9:33 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with a number of your points, but I don’t understand this one:

Steve Nash, for all his prodigious gifts as a point guard has never established himself as the alpha dog this team has sorely needed and passively torpedoed at least one head coach in the process.

What do you mean by “alopha?” Do you mean he took charge as leader of the team? On court? Off court? Ever since his return to the franchise he has been “alpha dog.” If not Nash, then who was, “alpha?” Certainly not Marion or Stoudamire. Clearly without Nash this team never would have gone as far as they did in the D’Antoni area. Granted, he didn’t lead us to the promised land, but without him there was no chance.

As far as “passively” tarpedoing someone, I assume you are referring to Porter. I doubt it was Nash alone who did that, but rather a cast of veterans. It was well documented that most of the team didn’ like or desire the change. And I don’t blame Nash and others for their feelings about Porter, that was all on Kerr and Sarver, a ridiculous choice for the team we had at the time. I still think Flip would have been a good choice, but he probably would have come at too steep a price.

by RD74 on Jul 5, 2009 8:41 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Nash as non-Alpha

Both on the court and off the court, Nash’s New Age aesthetic and Amare’s ego have prevented him from asserting himself completely. When you watch Chris Paul, Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, etc., there’s no question as to whose team you’re watching. I don’t think Nash is comfortable as the sort of chest-beating, in-your-face dominant leader that rallies the troops and gets them fired up. It sounds a little atavistic, but I think that kind of leadership is necessary in the NBA.

As for Porter, yeah, absolutely that wasn’t all on Nash (and was a complete disaster of a hire), but I think it’s worth noting that his resistance to Porter manifested itself passive aggressively both on the court and in the press instead of in a more direct (i.e., caveman Alpha chest-thumping) manner.

I don’t think one needs to be a barbarian to be a leader in the Association, but it helps to be in touch with one’s barbarism.

by Mike Lisboa on Jul 5, 2009 10:19 PM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Phoenix Warriors

I’m sorry but that’s what this team has become. We are just like Golden State somewhere between mediocore toa little bit better than average. Personally I think they should blow this team up. Suns aren’t getting anywhwere with Nash or Stoudemire. This is gonna be painful. It’s gonna take them a good five years to get there. The Suns can only get better through trades or the draft. Even though Phoenix is a great city with great fans its not the number one destination for big free agents. They’re going to be up s*** creek if they think they can keep this team together and just add the final missing piece next year, cause he isn’t coming.

by kvchiefs on Jul 5, 2009 10:22 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

Phoenix is not a destination

The only impact players the Suns have signed through free agency are their first Tom Chambers and Steve Nash. Traditionally the Suns best players have come through the draft or trades. This isn’t going to change.

by kvchiefs on Jul 5, 2009 10:35 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

don't hold your breath

Lebron, d-wade, bosh…..all the SUPER stars are not coming to PHX….which is why we need to keep amare and in the summer of 2010 we can attract a star (maybe) or really good players to go around him.

by gwillis on Jul 6, 2009 11:46 AM MDT up reply actions   0 recs

This makes complete sense!

I’m having trouble understanding the strategy for rebuilding (if that’s what the Suns are really doing). Are the Suns committing to a rebuild or are they still on some sort of misguided championship chase? My confusion is on two issues: the choice of vets for the Suns 2009-2010 squad and the handling of Amare.

Suns management, especially Steve Kerr, seem obsessed with having Steve Nash retire as a Sun and seem determined to retain Grant Hill. While the loyalty to the player is commendable, it seems like the plan of action for the future is unclear. Statistically, Nash’s performance is an improvement though his minutes played has actually gone up as the Suns struggle to build a bench to support him. Undoubtedly he has led the team as a veteran and can still contribute so an extension and increased salary make sense (at least on paper though a $13M+ payday seems steep given the low prices of other guards such as Jason Kidd). Alternatively, while few can say that Hill’s performance this year was poor, he did play below his career averages (such points per game, rebounding and most importantly minutes played) despite playing in all 82 games. Nash is 35 and Hill is 37. I completely appreciate the need to have vets to anchor the squad, but to me this seems like a bad deal both for the team hoping to start a new foundation and the player if hoping to end a great career with a championship ring.

The league seems filled with many premium free agents and while the Suns financial issues (and lack of premium draft picks to offer for next year) may preclude making a big move, it does seem like the obsessions with having Nash retire as a Sun and the anxiety of structuring a team around Amare, who, while prone to injury, does seem to perform better when he is considered to be the star, have really hampered this team. This is a point that had been followed up on here. Amare needs to be given an extension (the statistics warrant it) but he needs to grow up and it needs to be made clear there is no passing the buck during the re-build – it is Amare’s team, no excuses for lack of defense or insolent attitudes. Frankly he deserves the payday, not necessarily because of his performance on the court but for his coolness off the court in the utterly reckless handling of his status by the Suns management.The real question is whether there is anyone who can handle his ego and balance it out to achieve success on the court. The current coaching staff and front office seem too laid back or incompetent to really know for sure.

A trade with Nash needs to involve a first round draft pick and needs to keep clearing free agent space for next summer. It needs to be made clear to Amare that things are going to change and when he enters into his prime, the team will be ready to contend. Kerr needs to negotiate a deal that can really even things out from the Curry debacle on Draft Day.

by SunsFan79 on Jul 6, 2009 12:39 PM MDT reply actions   0 recs

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