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Sports Philosophy 102: Team Chemistry - Shaq vs. Nash for real...


This is interesting from a fans perspective...I wonder if it sheds light on anything?

Editor's Update: Hey check this out - the Shaq vs. might not even be Steve Nash's idea.  (Sources: Skeets and TMZ)  So... what the 7734 were Nash and Shaq squabbling about?  - ZF

Star-divide

An interesting article was posted on the AZ Central website about a legal altercation between Nash and Shaq.

Take a look at this. When I read this I couldn't believe it. I mean, I know Shaq is an entertainer, but to steal someone's idea so blatantly and outright seems over the top. Now granted we haven't heard Shaq's side of the story but the comment that "Steve was pissed" certainly explains Nash's request for Shaq's departure more clearly than hypothetical on-court chemistry issues (which also explains some of it dont get me wrong....).

This got me thinking about the value of court chemistry. I am not sure about the rest of you but I didn't really realize that there were these types of problems plaguing last years team. I have to wonder if chemistry issue really did have an effect on the performance of the Suns and if we will see a marked difference this year without Shaq. I mean, its one thing to have personnel problems between two front court players (Amare and Matrix supposedly) but to be at odds with the leader and, essentially, foundation of the team (especially on court) can have a profound effect on that teams performance.

So what do you guys think? Was the addition of Channing Frye a step in this direction? (I kinda wonder if his gregariousness was not a part his attraction to Kerr) Wil the chemistry be better? Does it even have an effect? Did last year's team suffer from issues like the one between Shaq and Nash? Or was it inconsequential in the long run?

Shout it out!

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I'm not sure where to begin ...

so I won’t

stunning, actually

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on Aug 20, 2009 12:48 PM MDT reply actions  

awful

I’m a big shaq fan, but I think Nash vs. would have been far more interesting than Shaq vs. Nash is far more multi-talented.

Who are these guys again?

by ZonaFlash on Aug 20, 2009 12:55 PM MDT reply actions  

No doubt

I would have been interesting to see Nash play tennis with Roddick or field balls in center field. Shaq doing stuff is just a joke which can’t last…

by Seth Pollack on Aug 20, 2009 1:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

exactly.

too bad we’ll never see it happen on national television.

by Trevor Paxton on Aug 20, 2009 2:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

What is easier to sell?

Nash where it would actually be competitive or Shaq where its a commodity. Nash getting into football gear or Shaq where he looks like a giant on the field.

I am just amazed that this actually happened between the two. Makes me wonder about the team chemistry on the court. They can say it never affected them on the court but its a heck of a white elephant in the room.

by Gorilla Game on Aug 20, 2009 4:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think Shaq is/would be better

His popularity across the country dwarves that of Nash. As much as us Suns fans love Nash, he really can’t hold a candle to Shaq when it comes to national recognition.

"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." - #21

"Once the Hack-a-Shaq works once, you know I’m going to see it again. The only thing worse for basketball than that defense is the Lack-a-Shaq offense, where I have to go to the bench because of foul trouble. There is no fun in that." - The Big Aristotle

"Pressure is something you feel when you don't know what the hell you're doing." - Peyton

by J-Gao on Aug 20, 2009 9:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

Damn...

That sucks!

I hope they air Shaq vs the Lawsuit some time soon…

"Basketball doesn't build character. It reveals it"

by PanamaSun on Aug 20, 2009 1:47 PM MDT reply actions  

If nothing else,

the addition of Channing Frye fits the mold, considering the Suns already have players like Steve Nash and Grant Hill who are affable, well-spoken and media-friendly.

As far as the alleged idea theft, I guess it does shed a little more light on the situation. You have to believe that Porter’s decision to make the offense more Shaq-centered was also part of the problem, as Shaq and Nash seemed to co-exist (and thrive) just fine offensively with D’Antoni’s double pick-and-roll system at the end of the 07-08 season.

by Azreous on Aug 20, 2009 2:07 PM MDT reply actions  

man...

It’s amazing on other sites how many idiots there are making negative comments on Nash. Nice to come here and read inteligent stuff!

My 2 cents….Shaq is goofy and very very entertaining, but he has little to no ethics and does what he pleases….I was ticked off at Shaq with his attacks on Dwight Howard, seemingly one of the nicest players around…just because Howard is now in the spotlight…shaq gets jealous and stupid…ok…he probably is consistently stupid…such a shame…I had high hopes for shaq after seeing how he reacted with some fans….riding in fan’s cars…carrying people…the pre game entry…a lot to enjoy there…but some people aren’t so clearly good or bad, or…in Shaq’s case stupid.

I also agree…I’d be very interested in watching Nash vs other athletes…where Shaq is kind of a joke! Nash has a ton of cross over skills for other sports…where shaq doesn’t…oh wait….he can hit people…there’s a skill….my mistake..

But the biggest thing to take out of this….chemistry…it wasn’t only not there…but not ever going to be…with a coach like pop, I really think last years team with some work could’ve won….it’s just no one knew how to do it that was there…I like the idea of having 1 fast team (lead by Nash) and 1 slow team (lead by shaq)…essentially making shaq Nash’s backup…

Porter has to be the biggest mistake! After reading (and believing) in the way porter treating dragic…I think dragic became like a puppy that gets hit again and again…very scared and tentative and lost his joy for playing…I think it’s now coming back….I’m ready to give dragic the chance he deserves with porter (dirty sailor) gone.

by be-the-ball on Aug 20, 2009 2:24 PM MDT reply actions  

Chemistry is huge, and obviously the team wasn’t on the same page last year. Lets hope this year is a different story, I have a feeling it will be.

by AcucracK on Aug 20, 2009 3:00 PM MDT reply actions  

Very good work.
Told Kerr recently that there are two important steps to take to make the Suns a candidate for one of the top 4 “elite” teams in the West. BOTH of these steps are absolutely essential.
FIRST STEP: This is the easy step. Raja Bell, in the past, had gotten suspended (vs. Fakers by putting a head lock on Kobe) and, more often, hurt badly enough to where he could not play. The solutiuon 4 our team? We started, in his place, “The Brazilian Blur.” What was the result? With LB starting in the same backcourt as Nash, with ONLY one exception (under TP), WE WON EVERY SINGLE GAME!!!! We must convince “Thunder Dan” to give Gentry a “clear path” to give this proven success formula a REAL SHOT, I believe this starting backcourt (without Shaq to or TP to slow the team down) will help the Suns team to blow away the opposition in the early part of the game. Then our starting guys can get some well-deserved rest. With such a big lead, our bench, with J-Rich, Frye (I hope), J-Dud, Earl (I hope), AT, and even an improving Tragic (I really hope and if not hopefully a new back-up plan) can get valuable playing time without the pressure of having to beat the other guys – all they will need to do is tred on the mill to not give up the huge lead, When the game is over, everybody feels good (WINNING ALWAYS IS A HELP to team chemistry) and the starters got their rest. Team is mentally, EMOTIONALLY, and physically ready for the next game.

STEP TWO: Much more difficult. Told Kerr he needs to improve the “CHEMISTRY ON THE TEAM”. Why did I say this? Because any team can win at home, but, only the best teams win on the road. We used to be either the best or one of the best teams at winning on the road. Do you remember those days not that far back? When Kerr fired TP and gave the job to Gentry, we became a better team. Gentry’s boys were almost unbeatable at home. BUT WE STILL WERE GIVING GAMES AWAY ON THE ROAD. What changed our road competitiveness this much? Your insightful post is the clue: ‘TEAM CHEMISTRY". Don’t credit or blame me 4 Shaq’s departure, as there were more important voices than mine wanting Shaq gone, like Sarver (now that Shaq fans have already paid 4 their Shaq souvenirs and game gear) who always seems up 4 saving a buck,AND Lou (who could not possibly have wanted to have to go find his bike or look over his shoulder 2c if Shaq & scissors were after him 2 cut off his pony tail, AND evidently “Mr. 4th Quarter” himself (Nash). What I told Kerr was that when you are on the road with the team, if the other guys are your buds, and the flight gets cancelled or delayed or rerouted, or the hotel misplaces your reservation and/or your luggage is lost…it becomes a sort-of fun comical adventure because of who you are with. On the other hand, when you’re with guys that you strongly dislike (and even hate) it becomes a total drag. Your energy is zapped before you even face the other team. THIS is why we can GAIN in ADDITION THROUGH SUBTRACTION. As a result, not only does this move benefit Sarver’s bank book, it HELPS THE CHEMISTRY AND MORALE OF THE ENTIRE SUNS TEAM? Nash (and even Kerr) are smart enough to pick up on this. THIS is why Nash, at his press conference, stressed “TEAM CHEMISTRY”. Nash understands how badly it was lacking and JUST HOW MUCH it hurt their energy level and ability to compete agaInst the home team, when the Suns were away on the road. Most of the media didn’t understand the importance of this issue and was not particularly fair in the way they reacted to these statements made by Nash. Matt Barnes and Shaq are now gone. Sarver will save. Suns fans should do a double back flip. Thier skills and their personalities were not complimentary to the Suns game plan nor to the CHEMISTRY BETWEEN THE GUYS ON THE TEAM. Frye is well-liked and, even if he does not succeed at staying in the rotation – Earl may improve fast enough to make that hard on Frye – he is a home grown Suns fan and will help in the locker room AND ON THE ROAD. VIVA THE SUNS who may once again become “King of the Road”!!!! .

by BCrayZ on Aug 20, 2009 4:46 PM MDT reply actions  

Seriously!

What did he say??

Go read a book!

by N8lol on Aug 20, 2009 6:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

When I told Kerr that there were two important steps to making the Suns again one of the best in the West, he naturally asked me what they were.
Told of the Suns’ success with a starting backcourt of LB and Nash, he nodded knowingly.
Then he said “that part is easy. What is the other part?”
Kerr was then told about the “hard part”: TEAM CHEMISTRY so we can get back to being a good road team – we used to be one of the best. Kerr knew I would not name names, but he was well aware of who the real trouble makers were. They are now gone, 4 the most part.

by BCrayZ on Aug 24, 2009 4:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

Do you think

a Only Start Barbosa Fanclub could get any momentum going?

Don't feel bad, Channing. We can't rebound either.

by rosewood on Aug 22, 2009 2:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

Seriously?

We’re just joking here right? I mean there’s no way in hell that Jason Richardson making $14m comes off the bench for this team…not to mention from just a basketball perspective, JRich is a better player and LB paired with Dragic gives our a more versatile second unit

by Seth Pollack on Aug 22, 2009 9:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

"...JRich is a better player..."

ppfffftttttttttt

well there goes my morning coffee….

by Fritzy on Aug 22, 2009 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think you're misunderstanding my club.

I only want Barbosa to start. No one else. 1 on 9 Norman Dale style. Then the idea is to go 9 on 5 with the second unit.

It probably won’t work.

Don't feel bad, Channing. We can't rebound either.

by rosewood on Aug 22, 2009 11:51 AM MDT up reply actions  

I see...

that would certainly be unconventional and it might just catch the league by surprise

by Seth Pollack on Aug 22, 2009 1:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think its interesting

given the statements we have heard from Kerr and Gentry about team chemistry. I have seen a ton of people down their answers as being cover-up answers to hidethe fact that they dont want to spend money. In other words, they are picking up “mediocre” cheap players and calling them “team guys” or something like that in order to sell them to the fans and media.
In light of this, however, perhaps we have overlooked the chemistry issue. Maybe it was something that really needed addressing.

Go read a book!

by N8lol on Aug 20, 2009 4:48 PM MDT reply actions  

I'm actually "pissed" at both Nash and Shaq for letting extracurricular garbage get in the way of a playoff run

Obviously Shaq is clearly at fault, but was Nash even really making much progress on the idea? Ideas are cheap! (Just ask our sponsors =D)

Still, its all too much hollywood in the city of phoenix and shaq ain’t the only offender.

Who are these guys again?

by ZonaFlash on Aug 20, 2009 5:23 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Great point

I do feel somewhat vindicated. I thought there was something going on somewhere most of last year and I was never able to get to the bottom of it with Nash…he just didn’t seem right.

I am looking forward to this season just to see how things turn out.

by Seth Pollack on Aug 20, 2009 5:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thats my thinking.

Here’s hoping!

Go read a book!

by N8lol on Aug 20, 2009 6:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

the sick thing is how we spent the season obsessing over how the suns could make the POs

and our star players we’re already caught up in their off-season plans.

While I’m sure that the article might overstate the drama and the impact on the team play and team focus, I still can’t imagine any teammate, much less Nash, securing a lawyer against another teammate.

Maybe its not a big deal, but… Wow.

Who are these guys again?

by ZonaFlash on Aug 21, 2009 3:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well,

I would guess that generally, though not always, serious fans care a lot more about the NBA and championships than players do.

Don't feel bad, Channing. We can't rebound either.

by rosewood on Aug 22, 2009 2:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

Chemistry

I’m still of the opinion that winners have chemistry. NOT: chemistry makes winners. Once you start winning a lot, feeling good about where your team is heading, then the chemistry comes because everyone is going to play loose. If you’re nervous about losing and not sure how you’ll finish, the team will play stiff and uptight. When you win, you feel a heck of lot better than losing, and will get along much better with teammates. Not the other way around.

"If you're a Yankee fan, or if you're not a Yankee fan - you have to admit, we're winners." - #21

"Once the Hack-a-Shaq works once, you know I’m going to see it again. The only thing worse for basketball than that defense is the Lack-a-Shaq offense, where I have to go to the bench because of foul trouble. There is no fun in that." - The Big Aristotle

"Pressure is something you feel when you don't know what the hell you're doing." - Peyton

by J-Gao on Aug 20, 2009 9:47 PM MDT reply actions  

Eh

I am not sure I agree entirely, but I will say that winners do have a sense of camaraderie and that chemistry comes through in that.

Go read a book!

by N8lol on Aug 21, 2009 8:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

um...

I know what you’re saying and I am sure that winning can improve chemistry, but there are teams that have it and teams that don’t regardless of the record. You can have very talented teams with bad chemistry that still win a lot but ultimately underperform. (There have been some recent Lakers teams that fit this.) Just like you can have a less talented team with good chemistry that exceed expectations. Obviously, you still need the talent to take you wherer you want to go, but chemistry is an important factor in how successful the team really is.)

by psknapp on Aug 21, 2009 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

Very good point.
When you lose, though, it’s better 2 know your team mate is someone that you are comfortable with that you feel “has your back”.
With most of his teammates over the years, Nash has been very good to his teammates and taken a leadership role both on and off the floor.
When they win, they feel the high. When thery lose, they all know Nash takes it to heart and that helps the team bounce back. Good wins make 4 good chemistry. Nonetheless, half of the games are on the road and good vibes among the team in the past helped the team to bounce back after a hard loss but last year bad vibes gave them no lift on the road. Just think of how miserably they played away from home.

by BCrayZ on Aug 20, 2009 11:36 PM MDT reply actions  

More so...

On National TV…. Games that persons should be pumped up for / excited about? Right? Apparently not with our Suns last year.

TO THE NBA - " Yeah, you have created a rift within me ; Now there have been ; several complications ; that have left me feeling nothing ; I might say, you were ; wrong to take it from me ; Left me feeling nothing " - Disturbed, "Numb"

by antiw0rm on Aug 21, 2009 9:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

This year is a new year.
Hard luck in last year’s Christmas game.
This year St. Nick will put the Clippers in our stocking.
Most importantly, if LB starts at the 2 with Nash we will be VERY hard to beat. Take that to the bank.

by BCrayZ on Aug 21, 2009 9:35 AM MDT reply actions  

Shaq vs...

Moving past any potential issues with Shaq vs, the biggest issue with moving to the slow down game that Porter was told to run with Shaq, is not only did it take away from the up tempo style the team was built for, but, it put Shaq down where Amare had previously been. Amare couldn’t work where Amare likes to work…including on the pick and rolls as he and Nash had done before. So Amare and the rest of the guys ended up on the perimeter more. More jump shots, fewer moves to the basket, fewer chances to get to the line as well. That, plus the well documented issues related to Shaq and Nash defending the pick and roll is what we hopefully improve on this year with younger, more athletic guys like Clark.

by FunInTheSun on Aug 21, 2009 3:23 PM MDT reply actions  

I like frye i think hes gonna be good with us..sounds like a reach but i see 14/16 ppg and about 7 to 8 boards ..he can stretch the defense and will get a lot of open looks with the starters..I cant wait to see how a line up of Frye Stat Clark Barbosa and Nash play I think that line up could be very tough clark can defend and rebound and the front court is all 6’10 and bigger with good athleticism and the backcourt can play with anyone in the league..Im worried about the bench though..I think they’d get a lot better shots if they press

by Lebrontophx2010 on Aug 23, 2009 6:48 PM MDT reply actions  

LOVE the idea of a full court press.
Will create lots of opportunities to fast break.
Have the youth and depth to pull off the press. J-Dud looked very good in the full court press last year.
Where in your starting line up is Grant Hill? DON’T 4get Hill!!!! Hill is MUCH better as a starter. Will need to start Hill unless he gets hurt. ONLY THEN does your starting line up sound good. Like Earl. We still have not seen him play 4 the Suns. We have not as yet seen Frye play on our team. When they prove they belong in our starting line up, like LB has MANY TIMES OVER, then I will b good with your idea. Lou and J-Dud have proven what they can do 4 this team. That is why I will be fine with either of them starting 4 the Suns, so long as LB will also start.. VIVA the Brazilian Blur.

by BCrayZ on Aug 24, 2009 12:22 PM MDT reply actions  

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