Just let it have it's own thread: Starting LB
by SunsFTW on Sep 17, 2009 3:14 PM MDT
127 comments
It seems this topic comes up in just about every thread on BSOTS, so I figured, rather than sifting through every other thread here, why not just start one about the topic.
Do the Suns start Leandro Barbosa, and have Jason Richardson off of the bench, or should they stick with the way it is now? It is a very difficult argument, and one could argue on either side of it, so it is going to come down to a matter of opinion. Who do you think should have the role of starter and why?
There are many things to consider, offensive skills, defensive skills, salary, who the bulk of their minutes will be spent playing with, etc. I think when you take everything into consideration, I think the Suns will still end up starting JRich over LB. In my opinion, becuase of LB's better defensive skills, I think he could provide a boost at the end of games to get key stops and steals, becuase of his long arms and overall quickness. I think the Suns are going to have JRich finish the games on the premise of the starters being the ones to finish, but if it were me, LB would close games out at the 2 guard position.
What are everyone else's thoughts?
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Mike D’Antoni lied. He told everyone publicly what he had already told LB privately: that LB would start on the road and Raja Bell at home (said it on a TV broadcast before tipoff of a Suns game). That failure to do what he said made LB moody and withdrawn and impacted his play and the chemistry of the team. LB’s mother was very sick and eventually died. Last thing LB needed at that time was to be let down by his coach’s lies. THAT is not the reason we should start him, just a little background, for those who don’t know.
When Raja Bell got suspended for getting Kobe in a head lock, Suns were down 3 games to 1 in the playoffs. What was the result? Coach D. did not like to try anything different but was forced to start LB in place of Raja. The Suns won that game, thanks in large part to the HUGE contribution from the Brazilian Blur. Remember that game? Suns turned it around and came back from down 3 games to 1 to win the series and advance. WHAT was the result of each game that Raja was hurt too badly to play? SAME ending. Suns won each and every game that they used a starting backcourt of LB and Nash. ONLY time it didn’t work was one game last year. That was under Porter when nothing was working well for the Suns. What we want is WINS. Nash and LB know how to play off of each other and that combination has resulted in clutch play and winning the game. THIS is why we MUST give this winning combo of LB and Nash a REAL SHOT.
Just ask Nash. He does not know J-Rich’s game very well. But Nash knows and loves LB’s game.
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 17, 2009 8:28 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Starting LB deserves its own blog =D
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
by ZonaFlash on Sep 17, 2009 8:49 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
not me
I think JRich should start. He’s the better all around player. I think you guys have let your love for LB go a little to far.
He’s a great kid (actually he’s a man now w/ wife and child :) and he’s improved a lot but he’s undersized to get consistent minutes at the 2. We’ve seen it too many times and I also think his offensive game while great is streaky and less well rounded than Richardson’s
LB is in the perfect role coming off the bench as the 6th man b/c he can back up both Nash and JRich and therefor give the team more options
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Phoenix Stan on Sep 18, 2009 10:40 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey Stan -
Don’t believe the REAL issue is who may be better in your opinion or mine.
What is the real issue? Getting the most WINS. Starting backcourt of LB and Nash is a proven success formula. Hawk made good points of J-Rich’s potential as a 6th man and J Sun made a good case for small ball by starting them both. Why not give starting LB a shot? If it works, we will have a shot at the top 4 in the West. If it does not work, we can follow your plan. What do we have to lose?
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 18, 2009 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll tell you what
at some point this preseason I will ask Coach Gentry what he thinks…you know, just so he can weigh in
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Phoenix Stan on Sep 18, 2009 5:33 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can see it now
Hey Alvin,
The fans on my blog all insist that you start LB over JRich, and they are all very adimint about it as well, espeically this crazy crazy really crazy dude ironically named “BCrayZ…” What are your thoughts?
by SunsFTW on Sep 21, 2009 10:40 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
No offense to BCrayZ
I love you buddy! :-)
by SunsFTW on Sep 21, 2009 10:40 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good fun.
Love you too buddy.
Alvin loves the idea. Majerle still needs to be sold. This poll just may help.
MUST start and ALSO finish with LB. Let’s go SUNS.
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 21, 2009 5:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Somehow I knew
BCrayZ was going to be the first to post on this thread. I voted for LB because Jrich will rip to shreds the second 2 guard on the other team, and he won’t put us in a hole with stupid plays early on. The starting 2 guard for the opponent more ofthen than not can force Richardson to his weak side, and he’ll get out of control with the ball.
LB will put the opposing team in the penalty along with Amare. We can’t continue to have a lineup starting off the game other that Amare that doesn’t force the other team to foul. This is what is most valuable about STAT – irreplaceable, in fact – that he racks up fouls on the opposing big men. With Amare and LB in there from the strart, we will be shooting bonus most of the time before the opponent.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
by Hawk42 on Sep 17, 2009 9:56 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Very funny, Hawk.
Also very good analysis.
Will you be in Palm Springs (Indian Wells) for the outdoor game? Hope so. Will be fun reliving my street ball memories. Both of us are from Brooklyn. Hope we can meet there. What an honor it would be to talk with such a pioneer of the game. Will they start the Brazilian Blur in the outdoor game?
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 17, 2009 10:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a second...
Do you really think he’s Connie Hawkins?
by hcblankscreen on Sep 17, 2009 10:31 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, B, I'm not the Hawk. But he was my childhood hero.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
by Hawk42 on Sep 18, 2009 9:12 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey Hawk -
Good pick for a hoop hero. Do you play ball? You have a good head for the game.
Mine was Jerry West. Now I’m partial to “Mr. 4th Quarter” (Nash). Nash loves to play WITH the Brazilian Blur.
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 18, 2009 1:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defense
I think the Blur is best at the 2. He’s a bit short to guard the Kobe’s but should be okay even against him. Kobe is going to tear everyone up regardless. LB has great hands and can get lots of steals leading to easy layups for him if Kobe or whoever tried to post him up and wasn’t careful.
The positives are he’s a great three point shooter. He’s developed a killer instinct. He’s got quick hands. He shoots a high percentage. He’s a great scorer. He’s got a speed advantage against every guard in the league except maybe Devin Harris.
I’m on the Start LB bandwagon. It’s a travesty that he hasn’t been starting already.
by eagleheart on Sep 18, 2009 6:59 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Hawk – VERY sorry.
Didn’t mean to give you away.
Feel free to e-mail me at barry_ziskin@msn.com. Getting some fan support for the Brazilian Blur.
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 18, 2009 8:31 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Strange
All I can say about BCrayZ is…strange….
As far Leandro goes here are my thoughts. I am not up on my LB statistics like some are. I do know LB is good. I also know that JR is good. Both have really similar skill sets and I wouldn’t say that LB is a better defender that JR right now. They are both pretty bad.
So what are the pros and cons of starting each?
If you start JR you have yet another sure fire gunner for Nash to whip it out to on the edges after he makes lane penetration. This is important. In this way JR serves as the new Raja. What he lacks in this comparison is great defense but what he gains is lane penetration and the ability to create his own shot. We have virtually non one who has this skill. Even Amare doesn’t do well at it. The cons are that JR needs to get hot and to do that he needs the ball…a lot! If he doesn’t get into a play then he has a tendency of just sitting there and the more he sits the colder and more ineffective get gets. (that rhymed!)
With LB you get what you have always gotten. He doesn’t bring anything new to the table year after year. Just lightning fast speed, a decent penetration, good outside shooting. He plays well off the bench but he really isn’t a point guard. Perhaps this is why having Goran/fill-in-the-blank-PG is so good: we need someone to take the pressure/attention off of LB so he can run around. The cons of LB’s game are similar to JR. If LB is not involved enough he has a tendency to stand around and get cold.
It would be good, in my opinion, to let LB start but not because he is better or worse that JR. I think putting JR on the second lineup would add immense depth and maturity to that lineup. JR could basically run the show on the second line and get hot off of all the touches he would get. LB on the first lineup would not do much better than JR would but he would demand the ball less and give the defense of the other team fits trying to cover him.
Go read a book!
by N8lol on Sep 18, 2009 8:50 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
JRich needing the ball a lot would benefit him on the second team because he would be the #1 option off the bench to score.
by SunsFTW on Sep 18, 2009 9:58 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I voted for LB at 2
because I want to see JRich at the 3 and have the Suns run like hell
Mmmmm ... Guinness
by JSun on Sep 18, 2009 9:43 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Good idea J Sun.
Like the idea of small ball. With Hill at the 4, Nash will kill them by finding somebody wide open. Will run them off the floor and find our way to the (foul) line.
We can full court press with our 2nd unit. Will cover up their offensive deficiencies and create havoc for the other team. With Nash, LB, J-Rich, Hill, and STAT as our starters, who can they afford to double team? With our bench, we will hope for the best from Goran. Although I prefer having a back up plan like a good trade for Harris or JJ and/or the French draft pick. LB is not a point; however he can go 40 plus minutes like Chris Paul. With Tucker and J-Dud and Earl and Lou and Frye, we will at least have energy and 4 of those guys can score the ball. Does come down to starting the Brazilian Blur.
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 18, 2009 11:03 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
no full court press
that’s lunacy
Mmmmm ... Guinness
by JSun on Sep 18, 2009 1:16 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
i hate the idea of hill at the four.
all i’m sayin’. matt barnes complained about how much his body took a toll because of it, and with grant’s old bones, i say nay.
by iamtrevorpaxton on Sep 19, 2009 12:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
and in addition
they’ll probably score on us pretty much every posession because we’ll be too small to guard anyone…
by SunsFTW on Sep 21, 2009 10:43 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hill at the 4 would be funny, until they post him up, then it becomes less funny.
by Chucko667 on Sep 22, 2009 11:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hill has been working on being the backup PG anyway...
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
by ZonaFlash on Sep 18, 2009 11:32 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smart Thinking!
I’m actually really enjoying everyone’s arguments about starting LB. There are some very smart people on this board!
by SunsFTW on Sep 18, 2009 10:00 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting arguments...
My thoughts:
1) I’m strongly against starting Hill at the 4. With a Hill-Amar’e frontline, we’ll get outrebounded 60-25 every night. And you don’t want to put that pounding on Hill’s body. Plus, he’s not a great shooter so we won’t even have that stretch-4 luxury like you would with things like Reshard Lewis. No no no.
2 JRich vs. Barbosa
a) Starting JRich at the 2 is the safe thing to do. We know LB is a good kid and won’t complain about coming off the bench. We aren’t completely comfortable with Dragic handling the car keys of the 2nd unit, so teaming up with LB can relieve some of that.
b) Contrary to the common belief, stats indicate that JRich is actually a better 3pt shooter than LB.
c) I actually am much more comfortable with LB guarding Kobe. JRich is stronger and is better at guarding the bigger, more physical 2s, like Joe Johnson.
d) Starying LB is a high risk thing. Richardson has always been the top gun on his teams before coming to Phx, and I have my doubts on whether he will embrace a bench role. If you start JRich at the 3, then you’re bringing Hill off the bench. Maybe he’ll be fine with that this year, I don’t know. But then we’ll have Nash, LB, JRich and Amar’e all in the starting lineup, one basketball among them. Is that a good thing? And who’s going to guard the opposing team’s best perimeter threat? (And isn’ it kind of sad that our most reliable perimeter defender is freaking 36yr old Grant Hill?)
e) The reason why we’re even discussing this is BECAUSE WE’VE INVESTED TOO HEAVILY IN TOO MANY GUYS IN THE SAME POSITIONS. AGAIIN. Last year we had to move Boris because we had Shaq and Amar’e in our frontline, with Lou and Robin also getting some minutes, so we shipped Boris out to clear the logjam up front.
And now we have Nash, LB and JRich in the backcourt, each deserving 30+ mins of playing time. We also have to play Dragic a couple mins at PG. (And that sound you just heard was Alando Tucker yawning.)
Between the two guard spots, there are 96 minutes per game. Do the Math and it’s easy to see that we just don’t have that much time to go around for all of them, even if JRich plays some spot duty 3.
Last year LB quietly became the odd man out. After averaging 30 and 32 MPG the prior 2 years, he’s down to 24 this past season. And I can only see that trend continues.
Look around the league: every team who has a 2-guard on the bench with heavy scoring duty (Ginobili, Terry) has a “lesser” starting 2 guard who only plays ~20 mins per game (Finley, Antoine Wright).
So after a lot of going on and on, I conclude that I’d go safe and start JRich.
by gadogry on Sep 18, 2009 6:36 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
well said
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Phoenix Stan on Sep 18, 2009 9:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know math much
but Barbosa is clearly the better 3 pt shooter.
Excluding 2001-05 when JRich shot just 33% from 3, JRich has 665 makes of 1702 shots from 2005-06 to present, or 39.1%. Don’t let that half-year in Charlotte shooting 45.4% for JRich fool you, it was just 27 of 59 shots.
Barbosa has 665 makes of just 1645 shots or 40.4% for his entire career, including his rookie year and without Nash. That also includes last year, which was rather a down year for his percentage, as well as for his use in the game. We all know stats favor starters and we know Barbosa, like many players, would perform much better as a starter. No doubt this also explains some of JRich’s performance as well.
And that’s the crux, we have no idea what JRich’s performance would be like coming off the bench, so you’re right that he’s the safe choice. He’s spent his career as a starter, gets paid franchise player money that would be hard to justify off the bench yadda yadda yadda. Still, I think those are pretty poor reasons, but they are probably the deciding factors.
At least I know this: Barbosa will be starting the first 2 games of the season because of JRich’s suspension.
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
by ZonaFlash on Sep 18, 2009 9:59 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right
I made the mistake of only looking at 08-09 stats when I claimed that JRich was a better 3pt shooter.
But then perhaps his percetages weren’t better because he was the focal point of the offense then and had to create most things by himself? Could his 3pt % be skyrocketing just like when Kidd moved from NJ (where he carries the team) to Dallas (where everyone sans Dampier can shoot the 3)?
by gadogry on Sep 18, 2009 10:14 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
sure, there's a lot of differences that could be debated.
However, I don’t think his 3pt shooting has skyrocketed by any means, other than he just learned how to shoot it in the summer of 2005. He was a career 33% shooter before that summer and he’s been about 38 to 40% ever since. A total step function in performance.
JRich’s stats in 08-09 are not actually better than his career stats since the summer of 2005-06. Whether he was in GS, Charlotte or here, he’s been around 38-40%.
If being the focal point of the offense causes a decrease in 3ptFG%, then there should be an inverse relationship between the # of shots and the %. Instead, we see the opposite effect, JRich takes more shots when he’s shooting well.
Rich’s best season of 40.6% shooting is just slightly above Barbosa’s career avg of 40.4%. JRich shot 600 tres that year for Charlotte. He also shot a lot (477) in 2005-06 when his percentage was a robust 38.4% as the focal point in GS.
So I tend not to think being the focal point of the offense doesn’t necessarily reduce shooting percentage, or else his percentage would be lower, not higher, in the years that he had to force more 3 point attempts.
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
by ZonaFlash on Sep 18, 2009 10:32 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn’t he lead the league in three point shots maid the in 2007-08? I might be wrong, but it was the whole reason that I supported the trade for him in the first place.
by egp the great on Sep 19, 2009 12:22 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very long piece and still you’re on the wrong page of the trey shooting numbers. Both are very good but LB consistently goes (beyond the arc) for over 40% and attacks the hoop so that he goes to the line.
“SAFE?” To me, safe is doing what we know wins. We have LOST a lot of games, particularly on the road, with a starting backcourt of J-Rich and Nash. They just don’t mesh. Starting LB with Nash consistently produces WINS. If it is “SAFE” to lose, I’d rather take risk.We have a glut at the positions that J-Rich can play. Tucker can play them and score when he gets some playing time. I believe J-Rich hasn’t connected at all with this team and should have Kerr show him the door. With his talent, we can shop for players in return who fill the thin spots where we need help.
LB has LOTS of energy and stamina and can play over 40 minutes, like Chris Paul. But ONLY if we start the Brazilian Blur.
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!.
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 18, 2009 9:07 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
I contend
Your sample size of Nash + LB starting = win games is small. Plus, other things were not held at a vacuum. If we had some dude in that #31 jersey who grabs us 12 rebounds per game AND Amare up front, or even Shaq + Amare up front, yeah, maybe we can afford to have 2 smallish guards in the backcourt for long stretches. But we’re talking about next season.
Go to this page and scroll to the 2nd table. Look at how our rebound rate falls off a cliff when we’re running a Nash-Barbosa backcourt.
http://www.82games.com/0809/0809PHO2.HTM
And don’t tell me we can win games without rebounding the ball.
by gadogry on Sep 18, 2009 9:57 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently we will try. That fate was sealed when we shipped Shaq, regardless of backcourt
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
by ZonaFlash on Sep 18, 2009 10:01 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
Our rebounding was the best when Shaq was NOT on the floor.
Dragic-Tucker-Dudley-Amundson-Lopez (5th most common unit, rebounded 57.5%) and Nash-Richardson-Hill-Amundson-Stoudemire (6th most common unit, rebounded 56.5%) certainly held their own on the boards.
Interestingly, the only common link on both those 2 units is Amundson. Maybe we can start Amundson and 4 Earl Boykins and still rebound 55%.
by gadogry on Sep 18, 2009 10:07 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
THAT is precisely what I WILL tell you.
Suns team should have won it all in ’07 when they were among the poorest rebounding teams around.
Mercury won in ‘07 when you can say the SAME. When you make your shot, there is no rebound. When you go to the line and make your foul shot, there is no rebound. When the ball is stolen, there is no rebound. ONLY time there is a rebound is upon a miss. Suns shoot the best. They often don’t miss. Suns have a bench player that leads the team in steals in the Brazilian Blur.
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!.
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 18, 2009 10:57 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's try this
A little Math challenge for you.
Q1) (5 marks) Would you rather shoot 50% and rebound 20% of your misses, or shoot 45% and rebound 30% of your misses?
Q2) (10 marks) Please list the ideal number of minutes you’d like to see the following players average in a game in the coming season. You can answer whatever you want as long as your numbers add up to 240:
Nash, LB, JRich, Hill, Amare, Lopez, Frye, Clark, Dudley, Amundson, Dragic, Tucker.
by gadogry on Sep 18, 2009 11:40 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take Q1 for 5 marks please
assuming 100 shots, and rounding up for fractional baskets above .5:
100 attempts @ 50% accuracy = 50 baskets made
50misses @ 20% rebounding= 10 rebounds= 10 new attempts
10 attempts @ 50% accuracy = 5 baskets made
5 misses @ 20% rebounding = 1 rebound= 1 new attempt
1 attempt @ 50% accuracy = .5 baskets made rouning up to 1 baskets
Total= 50+5+1= 56 made baskets
now,
100 attempts @ 45% accuracy = 45 baskets made
55 misses @ 30 % rebounding= 17 rebounds= 17 new attempts
17 attempts @ 45% accuracy = 8 baskets made
9 misses @ 30% rebounding = 3 rebound= 3 new attempts
3 attempt @ 45% accuracy = 1.35 rounding down to 1
Total= 45+8+1= 53 made baskets
I do believe I’d take BCrayZ’s hot shooting over superior rebounding.
Do I win the 5 marks?
If yes, can I get them converted to Euros as Deutsche Marks are difficult to spend.
by Fritzy on Sep 19, 2009 12:41 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we only do straight Math
then you’re pretty much right. It’s 55.56 baskets (50 * (1 / (1-0.1))) in the 50% scenario and 53.89 baskets (45 * (1/ (1-0.165))) in the 45% scenario.
But that does not take into account of the extra fouls you can draw with that extra possession, or the possession time you take away from your opponents (thus reducing the opportunities for them to generate points). Also, as ZonaFlash points out immediately below, the FG% after rebounding may be different (sometimes you get easy tip ins and putbacks).
So… while the raw Math says the former, I do believe that in reality its better to shoot 45% and rebound 30%
by gadogry on Sep 19, 2009 9:36 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
all very good points
however, that’s not what the question was,nor were those stats given.
- I guess I’m not getting those euros..dang
by Fritzy on Sep 19, 2009 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
no this is still wrong.
The opponents get a few more rebounds in Case 1 than Case 2 and this offsets the 3 basket differential.
Case 1 gives up 40 rebounds, Case 2 gives up 38 rebounds. At 50% shooting Case 1 gives the bad guys 20 makes, at 45% shooting Case 2 gives the bad guys 17 makes.
The lost rebounds in Case 1 offsets the additional makes in Case 1.
So the tradeoff of FG% to rebound % is matters critically and we do not know what that tradeoff is.
I get the 5 Marks and you guys are all wet. =D
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
by ZonaFlash on Sep 19, 2009 12:37 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I allowed the opponents
to shoot the same percentage as the main team out of fairness.
I think there’s also precedent that in a shooting game, everyone shoots a high percentage (50%) while in a defensive game, everyone shoots a lower percentage (45%).
Besides the analysis is about rebounds to shooting %, so what the opponents should have the same shooting percentage as used in Case 1 and Case 2.
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
by ZonaFlash on Sep 19, 2009 12:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
incorrect.
I’m not sure what question everyone else is trying to answer, but Q1 was very clear: which is better, 50/20 or 45/30?
I showed my work and unless any of my calculations are off ( entirely possible, I’m nobody’s mathmatician ) then my answer stands.
Obviously, in a game situation, shooting % and ( offensive ) rebounding isn’t the whole story, but then the whole story couldnt be put into a math formula, otherwise everyone would use it.
I say the Marks be donated to the Jrich Future Bail Bond Fund.
by Fritzy on Sep 20, 2009 1:42 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that we need to spend the money of a chauffeur for JRich
but, I totally built off your hard work and showed the additional work.
56 makes for the good guys – 20 makes allowed for the bad guys = 36.
53 makes for the good guys – 17 makes allowed for the bad guys = 36.
There’s some decimals floating around, but essentially it’s a wash, the -5% FG +10 rebounding is a knife-edge case. More importantly, the knife-edge case is completely irrelevant, save for the fact that its the offseason and there ain’t much to do anyhoo.
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
by ZonaFlash on Sep 20, 2009 4:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the difference is..
you went an extra step and figured in an opposing side to create a scoreboard, of sorts. I just stuck to exactly what he asked.
I do agree with the implication of your results, which is that even on paper it’s a wash, and even in my simple scenario it’s a 2 or 3 point spread over 100 shots.
I think the much more interesting thing is how perceptions color what people argue for around here. Clearly, gadogry is a fan of better rebounding, and so he posted a ‘math problem’ to demonstrate the superiority of that position, apparently without doing the math. And of course, it sounded pretty good..10% MORE rebounds? awesome! Heck he had me going. Until I did the math and discovered scenario A beat scenario B by 2-3 points.
Sometimes our intuition about the way percentages work is wrong, and it takes alot of hand waving on his part to try to convince us that what he REALLY intended was to also figure in FG% on rebounds after calculating technical fouls on games played at sea level on non consecutive nights.
Personally I think the lesson we should be taking is to not get so caught up in our preconceived notions of the way the game ‘oughtta’ be played and be open to alternative ideas, but I’m not holding my breath, and I expect “rebounding RULEZ” vs. " Shoot the lights out" to continue..
so on 2nd thought, I’ll split the 5 marks with you and spend my half on a beer
by Fritzy on Sep 20, 2009 6:58 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
You guys
lost me at hello + %
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Phoenix Stan on Sep 20, 2009 9:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Q1 Q2
Q1
Depending on what the bad guys do with their rebounds, I’d say without calculation the two cases are equivalent if the bad guys also shoot 50 and 45% respectively. I know this is some kinda fancy marginal analysis, but the real issue is not if you can give up 5% shooting and get 10% more rebounding, but how much that tradeoff actually is (3% shooting for 22% more rebounding etc or 10% shooting for 5% rebounding). That’s just not known for us and completely dependent on personnel and chemistry.
In the case of LB vs JRich, you get 1 extra rebound per 36 min with JRich, but you trade-off other stuff. Granted you may be right about Nash+LB being a weak rebounding backcourt, as LB leaks out rather than rebounds. However, there’s a lot of non-stat stuff that makes it debatable, and as you mention, perhaps situational.
Q2 – I’ll take:
Nash: 120 min
Amare: 120 min
the rest can kiss my @$$!
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
by ZonaFlash on Sep 19, 2009 3:40 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Math?
I’m a numbers dude. That Fritzy is correct. Even if you were to round that last 1/2 hoop down, 55 shots beats 53 shots. Suns shoot the trey very well (particularly LB, J-Rich, and Nash). This means more points per shot made.
Alex, I’ll take that 2nd question for 10 (or 240). Nash = 35; LB = 40; Hill = 28;
Frye = 24; STAT = 37. THAT adds to 164 minutes for our starters Alex. Must say though that I would prefer trading J-Rich for a good starting big plus a back up point. That leaves 86 minutes for subs. Zero for Goran; J-Rich = 22; Tucker = 16; J-Dud = 16; Earl = 16; Lou = 16; Wrong Twin = ZERO. That said, I would split the minutes differently if we had a good back up point prospect and MUCH differently if we were able to land Harris with the good twin from the Nets.(entire team was just sold). KEEP IN MIND thast LB, our player most able to play long minutes, gets them BOTH as a starting 2 guard and back up point. Twin and Dragic get to carry the towels and the water pail.
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 19, 2009 6:27 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know if Frye should be starting
Will the Suns go small-ball with Nash, Barbosa, J-Rich, Hill, and Stoudemire?
"I always believe there's a reason why you go through everything." -John Elway
by LACK on Sep 19, 2009 8:23 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
MUST apologize. Very good with numbers. But not THIS time .My minutes added to 250 and not 240.
What do do to trim 10 minutes down? I believe that among our 10 rotation guys, that 8 of the 10 are SURE bets. What I mean is that they are either accomplished pros (Nash, LB, Hill, STAT, and J-Rich) who have developed strong and reliable aspects of their game OR THEY are developing pros. With the developing pros (Frye,J-Dud, and Lou) who have begun to develop their NBA game. Even if their potential isn’t reached THIS YEAR, they can still give us some reliable minutes with high energy and certain complimentary skills with the other players in their unit. Frye, given 24 minutes a game, could play his way into becoming one of the favorites of our fans (particularly because he comes from here.) Shaq clogged the lane but, at the very least, we can look for Nash and LB and Hill and STAT to drive the lane and go to the line and Frye will help to space the floor where he can position himself for an open look. Frye has a good shot, particularly when he is open. J-Dud and Lou are already favorites of our fans. Suns fans know what surprising energy J-Dud and Lou have put forth and what impressive all around play we have seen from J-Dud (particularly when he is wearing his “lucky” orange head band). Giving each of them 16 minutes or more will help them improve further, thriughout the year. They are so young and raw, but not untested. EACH of them is capable of doing MUCH MORE than what we have, thus far, come to see. Which one of these guys will be our rising star? I don’t know. I can make a best case for each of them. One thing for sure…with these guys on the court, BOTH of our units will be playing small ball. Unless Kerr makes a GOOD move, we will have to work with what we have.
BOTH Tucker and Earl have HUGE upside but neither has as yet had the opportunity (despite their stellar college careers) to show and to grow their game.Because, until they show us what to expect, we truly don’t know. Therefore, it makes the MOST sense to me to take the 10 minutes I need to cut from here. EACH of them (Tucker and Earl) will play for 5 minutes less (from 16 minutes like Lou and J-Dud down to just 11 per game). MUCH MORE consistent playing time for Tucker, even after the reduction, than EVER!!!! Earl will be a rookie. Most rookies in the league will not have the opportunity to play 11 regular minutes each game. This year could see one or more of our young bench guys rise through the roof, earning MUCH MORE playing time. There is always the possibility, among such a talented and young bunch of guys, of striking gold. Besides our developing and energetic young guys, we will get high energy, skilful and competive play, and professionalism from a minimum of 4 out of our starting 5 (STAT, Hill, LB, and Nash).
MUST start and finish with LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 19, 2009 10:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Q2:
question two is kind of a loaded question. it’s not taking into account certain players playing on nights when we either a.) are playing a terrible team and can afford to play rookies and younger players more minutes, or b.) we give an older player a night off to rest (a la shaq). so, it’s like trying to figure out how many minutes to give each player, if we were to go 12 deep, every game. which is unrealistic. maybe change the parameters of the question, a bit?
by iamtrevorpaxton on Sep 19, 2009 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Leandro Barbosa is my second favorite Suns player, after Nash
I would like him to start ahead of J-Rich. I still don’t get why the Suns gave away Raja and Boris for Richardson.
"I always believe there's a reason why you go through everything." -John Elway
by LACK on Sep 19, 2009 8:22 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
"gave away"?
raja is getting older (33) and is clearly losing a step on his defense. he was on his way out anyway. and, no matter how well boris can play on one night, the next night is a complete question mark. he’s got the talent and skillset, i just don’t know if he has the desire.
so, trading away one grumbling player (who was actually getting vocal about it) and another fairly talented player with questionable desire for a player that fit our system like j-rich made absolute sense. who knows how the rest of the season would have played out, had we kept both raja and boris on our team. i doubt we would have done much better, and i doubt we could have gotten much better for the duo.
by iamtrevorpaxton on Sep 19, 2009 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also boris was the odd man out when we had Shaq and Amare
We regretted losing Boris as soon as Amare’s season abruptly ended.
Of course, we also regretted not losing Boris sooner for having caused Amar’es injury in the first place.
Let’s not forget that the trade was because Raja requested it. He precipitated the whole thing and now we’re better in the backcourt, but somewhat worse in the frontcourt.
Hopefully, Channing Frye will come in and make us forget about Boris.
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
by ZonaFlash on Sep 19, 2009 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
J-Rich is an ideal 6th man and could win 6th Man of the Year over Jet and Manu.
Can’t be trusted to finish the game.
Twin and Dragic can’t even be trusted to play. If we need to, we can shorten the rotation from 10 to 9, if somebody gets hurt or needs to rest for a game. Either way, 10 or 9, will give the “GOOD” bench guys lots of playing time. Brazilian Blur, if starting and getting 40 minutes, has the potential to outscore STAT as the leading scorer on the team.
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 19, 2009 4:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
jrich won't be able to pull off 6th man of the year...
over terry or (a healthy) ginobili.
and, so they can’t be “trusted” to play. how do you learn to play at the NBA level? you play. all rookies go through their struggles. we never really gave either of them a legitimate shot (except lopez, who we played on nights when shaq was resting), so i think this year is the make or break year.
especially for lopez, because the final two years of his contract are only team options.
by iamtrevorpaxton on Sep 19, 2009 6:46 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
They say (at my age) that I have no future in the NBA. When I was in my 20’s, before MJ burst onto the scene, I was asked to try out for the Bulls…but I had no desire to end up like Dragic.
Last year, we gave Dragic and Lopez a shot. This year, we know better. A 10-man rotation is VERY DEEP. If we had an 11th player who deserved a shot, I would say “SURE, give the prospect some playing time”. We have 5 young prospects who do deserve to be rewarded with consistent playing time.
Frye is an intriguing home town prospect who had a good college career. Will he be part of our future plan? I don’t know. So I’m willing to give him playing time. If we were not so desperate for a starter at the 4 forward spot (since STAT will likely be forced to go back to the 5 spot), I would not want to start Frye. But this is an area in which we are weak. Kerr may make a move that helps us up front. If not, we have to make do with what we have. Frye has never played for 24 minutes in the NBA but his style of play will help us spread the floor and he could flourish, playing with Nash. He will learn and, if he develops in a positive way, may earn even more playing time. If not, someone else will take some of his playing time. Suns have 4 young guys who, besides Frye, I believe. deserve a shot to continue to “LEARN TO PLAY AT THE NBA LEVEL”, each of whom is capable of becoming a rising star. They are not so fortunate as Frye to be the only one on our team with SIZE and SOME positive NBA experience in an area we so desparately NEED. The only one who may help us up front as a starter is Lopez, but ONLY because of his SIZE. He gave us a glimpse last year and in Summer League into his game (or the lack thereof) and we would have to be VERY dumb to start or EVEN PLAY the twin. Even Lou, who is foul prone and limited in skills, may someday surprise us, as he learns and develops, and earn a starting 4 spot. Suns could even have a future “Birdman” here!!!! He has the energy, strength, athleticism, and work ethic to give long playing time to our team. Earl has never stepped foot into an NBA game. LOTS of potential here and, if no help comes from Kerr, Earl will get a shot to earn more playing time. Hard work may eventually earn Earl a starting 4 spot. J-Dud and Tucker aren’t so fortunate to have either the point skills or the SIZE up front that we NEED. J-Dud has already earned more playing time and don’t forget he was ACC Player of the Year. Tucker has as yet to earn more playing time because he hasn’t yet been given a fair shot. Don’t forget that, like J-Dud, Tucker was also Player of the Year (Big Ten Conference OVER ODEN in Oden’s #1 draft pick year.) These 4, plus Frye, need to be given some time to “LEARN TO PLAY AT THE NBA LEVEL” and, from this group, we can look for them to grow, some more and some less. That will not happen if you try to include everybody, including the ones who caused us to lose games last year. Suns who make the grade must be rewarded, particularly our still young rising star that just led Brazil to the GOLD.
MUST start and finish with LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 20, 2009 8:27 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
wait...
so you were asked to try out for the bulls? random. and you know frye and steve nash? you’re one well rounded person.
and…i agree about frye. he’s an intriguing prospect that had success in college and hasn’t really done much at the NBA level. hopefully he’s poised to have a breakout year.
but, here’s the thing about rookies. some of them take years to develop. who knew that danny granger would be the bonafide star he is now after his rookie campaign? he had a pretty okay year, but he didn’t live quite up to the hype. he’s improved every year after that, after getting more familiar with the game.
now, while i don’t think dragic or lopez will ever break out like granger has, they can still be serviceable. young big men are, more often than not, prospects. the way the college game is constructed caters more to guards and wingmen, and the NBA game is a completely different ballgame for a big man. they both still have potential. will they ever reach it? i don’t know. what i do know is that they were rookies last year, have had a year (and a summer) to improve their games and work on things, and they should come back next year a little better than the last.
by iamtrevorpaxton on Sep 20, 2009 12:09 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting slightly-related factoid that may interest only me
The Suns traded a 2005 first round pick they had acquired from Cleveland to Charlotte to get the Bobcats to take Jahidi White in the expansion draft. I’m not sure how much money this saved the Suns, but White’s contract was in the area of $6 million. That 13th overall pick ended up being Sean May. Danny Granger went 4 slots later, which relates this post to the one above in some small way.
by Suns' Sensei on Sep 20, 2009 7:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Goran has been playing off of the ball.
Look at his lack of assists. That is also proof that he is looking ONLY to score and not to pass, even if someone is wide open,
This is fine. But only if you are a 2 guard and we have lots of them – besides Goran if we were to include either J-Dud or Earl we have 4. This leads me back to the idea that …yes… with LB starting and finishing and subbing for Nash and playing for 40 minutes, we have the potential to be a top 4 team in the West. Potential SURE but this ice is as thin as the health of STAT and MUCH MORE the health of Nash. Don’t misunderstand what I just said. I actually believe that, if we start the Brazilian Blur and we are fortunate that our key players are healthy MOST of the year, the Suns HAVE A VERY GOOD SHOT AT THE TOP 4 IN THE WEST!!!! Just that I would prefer it if we had less risk. If we can move J-Rich, not JUST to move him and thin out our payroll and position glut and improve the chemistry of the team, but to get DEEP where we need to get deep, than perhaps we can even have a shot at a playoff run that GOES DEEP. With the right talent in return, J-Rich will not be missed, particularly since it will give a wide open opportunity to start the Brazilian Blur.
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 19, 2009 7:27 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by MUST_START_LB!!!!!!!! on Sep 19, 2009 7:39 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
seriously...
someone needs to ban this “MUST_START_LB!!!!!!!” guy. or at least warn him. the account was solely created to comment on things that BCrayZ says. i like B, don’t like the other.
by iamtrevorpaxton on Sep 20, 2009 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Definitely we'll look into it. But it's clear the Start LB movement is getting big.
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
by ZonaFlash on Sep 20, 2009 4:08 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have feelings.
And those feelings are telling me MUST START LB!!
by MUST_START_LB!!!!!!!! on Sep 20, 2009 4:34 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
okay, we get it.
i still think we should start richardson. barbosa can have his day when richardson is gone. but as for now, i think we need to keep things the way they are.
by iamtrevorpaxton on Sep 20, 2009 6:03 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, we have feelings too
And our feeling is that you need to tone it down a notch…
by Chucko667 on Sep 22, 2009 11:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just what do you mean by “our”?
Who are you speaking for?
Some secret society? Certainly not for the Suns team. Gentry wants to start the Brazilian Blur.
MUST start and ALSO finish with LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 23, 2009 4:50 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
easy tiger
My feelings on LB starting or not were not part of that post, i’m just saying to tone it down a knotch with the whole “Must start LB” thing.
Constructive posts are great, they add insight and encourage discussion. I just want to encourage “MUST_START_LB!!!” to post descriptive comments in order to allow us to engage in a discussion.
I’d just prefer to have a discussion on the pros and cons of a particular strategy rather than single mindedly berrating anyone with the opposing view. This is one of the reason i have recently stopped posting on this forum. If i have the opinion that LB shouldn’t start, i feel that certain members will attack me rather than my arguments. a point clearly proven by your reference to me being part of a secret society.
Don’t bother replying cos i don’t think it’s worth coming back to this forum.
by Chucko667 on Sep 23, 2009 6:26 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
let's not twist it so far as to say BCrayZ attacked you, my friend
I’m pretty sure Stan reprimanded this troll MUST_START_LB for trolling and I don’t think there’s been any personal attacks on anyone at all, nor do I think any view has been derided without undue consideration.
Honestly, I’m a bit surprised by the level of frustration here.
Last year at this time, honestly this blog was dead. I’m surprised how much speculative discussion is happening right now. Season starts soon at which point we will have things to really consider.
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
by ZonaFlash on Sep 23, 2009 3:20 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
No need to thank me
I just like talking about the Suns… ;-) haha JK, but seriously, I’m surprised how active this blog is too. It is, afterall the best Suns site out there right now.
by SunsFTW on Sep 23, 2009 3:23 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
definitely some good peeps here. =D
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
by ZonaFlash on Sep 23, 2009 3:26 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point, i’m overreacting.
My apologies BCrayZ.
by Chucko667 on Sep 24, 2009 1:02 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
ty you are a great fan and from your comments, you seem to have a lot of good things to post
Hey Chuck, this blog is making great strides moving in the direction you propose.
BSotS used to be just another place for people to troll and bully people and vent their frustrations. It used to be a place where mama jokes, vulgar language, graphic innuendos and heinous insults abounded. Noobs and fans from other teams were ground up and spit out for the vile crimes of being new and ignit. BSotS used to be the back alley in the City of Suns News. Each comment was like a driveby shooting, and the body count was in the hundreds.
I miss the violence. =D
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
by ZonaFlash on Sep 24, 2009 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's funny
how the trolls are missed when they’re gone… LOL!
by SunsFTW on Sep 24, 2009 3:10 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good description, ZF!
sounds like phxsuns.net, which never grew out of that behavior.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
by Hawk42 on Sep 26, 2009 8:38 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s speaking for me as well. I’m frankly sick of the nonsence. If you could please stop adding “Must start LB” at the end of every post, it’d be much appreciated. It’s already in you sig, I don’t need to read it twice.
Thanks!
by SunsFTW on Sep 23, 2009 10:08 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
stan should just clear the signature line =D
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
by ZonaFlash on Sep 23, 2009 3:21 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
and so I did it myself =D
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
by ZonaFlash on Sep 23, 2009 3:44 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you like to "do it" yourself?
name that movie!
by SunsFTW on Sep 23, 2009 3:53 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like all of you guys.
Like the Beatles said “All We Need Is Like”
Like LB too.
MUST start and finish with LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 20, 2009 11:17 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
all you need is love?
or is this some other beatles song that has somehow slipped my recognition?
by iamtrevorpaxton on Sep 21, 2009 10:33 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Considering all the love Barbosa seems to be getting, I'm not sure why we would give up on Dragic..
Let’s take a look at their rookie seasons, stats adjusted to 36 MPG.
Barbosa: .447 fg%, .395 3p%, .770 ft%, 3.0 reb, 4.0 ast, 2.2 stl, 2.9 to, 1.38 A:TO, 13.2 ppg
Dragic: .393 fg%, .370 3p%, .769 ft%, 5.1 reb, 5.5 ast, 1.4 stl, 3.6 to, 1.53 A:TO, 12.2 ppg
So, Barbosa shoots better, but it looks like Dragic rebounds and passes better. Dragic probably also played better D than Leandro did as a rookie. This despite Dragic being thrust into a backup PG role on a championship contender that had problems in this area for the past few years. Barbosa received more consistent minutes and also didn’t have to deal with playoff expectations or the pressure of getting a large contract to help pay for a buyout. I’m not saying Dragic is the next Rajon Rondo or anything, but I think he at least deserves more than a year before we completely write him off.
by Suns' Sensei on Sep 20, 2009 6:55 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
very good point.
i like dragic. always have.
and i still think richardson should start over LB, to keep this related to the post.
by iamtrevorpaxton on Sep 20, 2009 7:49 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
ah yes, the post...
i agree that richardson should start. i think the second unit fares better with a dragic and barbosa combo, since both show a moderate ability to create for others that i havent seen from jrich. though i wouldnt be too upset if barbosa started.
by Suns' Sensei on Sep 20, 2009 8:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
this thread blew up over the weekend! I do good work… ;)
by SunsFTW on Sep 21, 2009 10:52 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
lol @ starting Leandro Barbosa
you guys are crazy. I can’t believe that the majority of the pollers said start him. Jason Richardson is not a bench player lol…this is, to me, like debating starting Paul Millsap over Carlos Boozer…helllll nooooooooo.
by BJabs on Sep 21, 2009 1:36 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
good comparison… when boozer went down, Millsap shined, but Boozer is still a better starter.
by SunsFTW on Sep 21, 2009 2:22 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
When, J-Rich starts and finishes, the Suns often LOSE.
Then again, when we start and finish with the Brazilian Blur, alongside Nash, our team WINS.
THIS is the ONLY consideration that matters, not who is the “best” player in your opinion or mine. Nash and J-Rich DON’T MESH WELL. Nash and LB play well off of each other and help each other when it is time to finish the game.
MUST start and ALSO finish with LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!.
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 21, 2009 3:09 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
not to knock your campaign...
but we don’t really have the best sample size of games to use in that manner. and, if i’m not mistaken, richardson was here for basically half of a year, and we had terry porter’s system causing problems all over the place.
richardson, as a starter, has had just about as big of a sample size of games as barbosa has had as a starter. let’s see what happens in the season, with gentry fully in control, and a wide open run and gun type offense. if that doesn’t work, then we can start the campaign back up.
by iamtrevorpaxton on Sep 21, 2009 4:13 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good starts are worth their weight in gold.
THAT is why I feel it’s important to start the year with the BEST odds on our side. Gentry agrees but Majerle does not with my idea to start the Brazilian Blur.
Flip side of your recommendation is to give LB a shot at starting and finishing WITH Nash and helping our team for 40 minutes per game. If THAT does not work, THEN we go to plan B.
MUST start and ALSO finish with LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 21, 2009 5:19 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait...
You want Barbosa to play 40 minutes per game? One thing is for sure, JRich WILL NOT play 8 minutes a game… that’s absolutely rediculous to pay 12 million dollars for 8 MPG.
by SunsFTW on Sep 22, 2009 11:18 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Limiting Richardson would make him have a bad attitude.
by Species8472 on Sep 22, 2009 5:05 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought he already had one
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
by Hawk42 on Sep 23, 2009 6:20 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
WHAT????
Read the earlier comments to this thread. When you do, you will note that I had penciled J-Rich in for 22 minutes, MOST of all players in the 2nd unit. This is nearly as much as the 24 minutes I suggested for Frye, as our starting 4 spot and not that much less than the 28 minutes suggested for Grant Hill. There are ONLY 48 minutes in a game (unless we go into over time). Have you noticed, by the way who plays with MOST energy in over time on the Suns? Nash and, even more so, the Brazilian Blur. More time LB is played, the better he gets. What about that 48 minutes? When we add 40 minutes for LB plus 22 minutes for J-Rich, it comes to 62 minutes. That seems like too much. What I said was that I prefered to play a 10-man rotation. This leaves out Goran and the twin. Suns need a TRUE back up point. BOTH Goran and LB have been used at the back up point, although neither of them can replace Nash. They BOTH play MUCH better off the ball. Sean Singletary would have been ideal, once he learned the NBA game. But alas he is gone. Can we get him back? Therefore LB, who has TONS of energy and stamina, would do double duty. For MOST of J-Rich’s minutes, he would play WITH the Brazilian Blur.
HERE is a recap of my suggested 10-man rotation: The starting five would be Nash for 35 minutes, LB (both as our starting shooting guard and a back up to Nash) for 40 minutes, Hill for 28 minutes, Frye for 24 and 37 for STAT. That comes to 164 minutes for our starters but only 151 minutes as a starting unit (164-13=151) LB would be spending 13 minutes with the 2nd unit, backing Nash. With 240 player minutes per game, the 151 minutes by the starting unit is only 7 minutes more than 60% of the game. That leaves nearly 40% of the playing time for our 2nd unit. Besides the 13 minutes LB would play backing Nash, 22 minutes would go to J-Rich, who could score 16-20 points per game in a back up role Do I hear 6th Man of the Year (over Jet and Manu)? Rest of the 89 minutes by our bench would look like 16 minutes each for our proven reserves (J-Dud and Lou) and 11 minutes each for those who have as yet to play (Tucker and Earl). When one gets hurt, I suggest we shorten the rotation from ten to nine guys. LB gets the most playing time because he is the one BEST ABLE to play 40.
MUST start and ALSO finish with the Brazilian Blur. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
by BCrayZ on Sep 23, 2009 4:29 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I stopped reading your post when you said JRich only gets 22 minutes. JRich needs around 30 minutes. LB needs close to 30 minutes as well between the the PG & SG position. JRich is the starter, and he should be because he needs Nash with him more than LB. LB and his quickness show that he is a more dynamic scorer and has the ability to get into the lane more than JRich, which makes him more effective without needing to be set up by Steve Nash. Now obviously you put Nash in there with LB, he’s gonna get set up easily, but so is JRich. JRich needs Nash more, so he should get more time playing with Nash.
by SunsFTW on Sep 23, 2009 10:13 AM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I stopped reading your post when you said JRich only gets 22 minutes.
+1000. That’s why I asked that question.
by gadogry on Sep 24, 2009 1:00 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe that
1) This thread has >100 comments (even if I contributed like 10 of them).
2) LB is winning the poll by a non-trivial margin. This should have never been a debate in the first place.
by gadogry on Sep 24, 2009 1:08 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
It's because
There are people that still believe that logically JRich is the better fit.
by SunsFTW on Sep 24, 2009 3:12 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait
I’m in the start JRich camp. 2 weeks ago I never even thought that someone would advocate starting LB over JRich. That’s why I’m shocked when I saw that LB was actually leading in the poll.
If the question was “Who would you feel more comfortable with giving your children a ride to school”, yeah, then I can see LB beating JRich out.
by gadogry on Sep 24, 2009 6:02 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good putdown for Jason Richardson. He asked for it.
by Species8472 on Sep 24, 2009 6:04 PM MDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think there will be any trade of Richardson to kill this issue. One of the reasons another team might have traded for him was to get Sasha Pavlovic’s contract with it, and the Suns recently dumped Pavlovic’s contract.
by Species8472 on Sep 24, 2009 6:01 PM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Sit them both down
Start Fletch!
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
by Hawk42 on Sep 26, 2009 8:40 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
Start Dragic
Must start GD! Think of the children! Save Steve Nash’s back!
by eagleheart on Sep 29, 2009 12:12 AM MDT reply actions 0 recs
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