If Not Lopez, Then Who?
by Wil Cantrell on Sep 22, 2009 8:08 AM MST
in Phoenix Suns Commentary
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PrintBarring any unforeseen occurrences in training camp or preseason, 4 starting spots appear locked down:
PG-Nash
SG-Richardson
PF-Stoudemire
SF-Hill
The 5 is the question. We have options in theory. We could go really small and run everyone out of the building. It's a sexy idea, but what happens when we face the Spurs, Lakers, and Blazers of the league? Who will rebound? Who will guard the rim once Tony Parker, Kobe Bryant and Brandon Roy blow past our front two en route to an easy layup? Who will fill the Shaq void?: Meet our big men, Channing Frye and Robin Lopez.
Here are some numbers to consider:
- In 2009, the Suns led the NBA in scoring with 109.4 per game. They were 27th in defense, giving up 107.5 points per game. Their overall defensive rating was 111.6 (26th in the league).
- In 2008-9 The Suns were a middle of the pack rebounding team, averaging 41.70 per game. Of course, that is with Shaquille O'Neal playing center.
- In 2009, Shaq led the Suns with 633 rebounds and 108 blocks. Amare, in only 53 games was second on the team with 430 rebounds. Amundson was second on the team with 65 blocks in 76 games.
I realize Shaq took a lot of Amare's rebounds away, and I also realize Amare missed 29 games due to injury. Provided he's healthy, Amare can take up someof the slack left by Shaquille O'Neal. But Amare obviously cannot do it alone. So who else can we depend upon to battle the boards, and guard beasts like Howard, Oden or Bynum?
Let us start with what we know to be true about Frye and Lopez:
- Frye is not a 5. He does not possess the attributes needed to be an every day NBA center. He'd clearly be playing out of position. His best rebounding season was his rookie year in NY, where he averaged 5.8 (374 for the season).
- I'm 99% sure Amare is not moving back to the 5. Like Frye, he's simply not a center. Plus, I think he would be very unhappy about moving back there. Unhappy enough to do something silly like demand a trade or become a locker room cancer
- Lopez's size and skill set represent the only true center on the squad. In fact, even as an inconsistent second year player, I don't know anyone outside of Amundson, Hill, and (sometimes Barbosa) that have proven to be above average defense players.
What do you all think?
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This to me
is THE biggest roster question for the Suns going into the season. JD and Lou will do great off the bench but either Amare moves back to the 5 (and we’ve seen that movies before) or Lopez steps up big.
Most likely is a combination of both of course but right now, I would say that for the Suns to over achieve (ie beat expectations) it will take a big leap forward by Robin. How’s that make you feel?
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
oh and of course
the Suns old fellers will also have to stay healthy for Phx to do well but that’s a given with pretty much every team
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Seth Pollack on Sep 22, 2009 8:39 AM MST up reply actions
health is always an issue
Here’s wishing you well from the blazers. I was one of many who enjoyed watching the suns during our jail blazer era, and I think Frye will work in your system because his shooting will work well with Nash and stoudemire. He didn’t fit our system because Greg was still developing (unlike Amare) and we didn’t have an MVP PG. The combination should get him open looks. I don’t like what Kerr has done in dismantling a team that was a very strong contender, but I do think the suns will win some games and hopefully be very fun to watch again. (I’m still iffy on the coach, I prefer seeing Nash free to create and run to his hearts content)
I didn't wan to get too dramatic, but....
Resting your team’s hopes on Robin Lopez’s shoulders makes me, well, uncomfortable.
by Wil Cantrell on Sep 22, 2009 8:41 AM MST up reply actions
yup
that’s kind of my point :)
Of course, we all know that I am not sold in 7SOL basketball.
The reality is, that with Amare at the 5 and Frye at the 4 and Hill and JRich at the wings and Nash running the show this team is going to score a lot of points. They are just going to get killed on the glass but hey, that’s what happened in 04-07 and people loved that so who knows…
It also brings up an interesting coaching philosophy regarding mixing and matching line ups
D’Antoni has a firm believer in playing your best players as much as possible regardless. Watching Gaines handle the Mercury he’s gone another route more like the Spurs and Mavs who keep a few guns on the bench.
If Lopez doesn’t start that leaves a bench unit of Dragic, LB, Lopez, JD, Lou and Clark. That’s a solid defensive unit. Potentially REALLY solid. But who’s going to score?
So do you go for balance in both the starters and bench or do you go offense/defense?
I might ask Gentry that question next week…
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Seth Pollack on Sep 22, 2009 8:50 AM MST up reply actions
D’Antoni has a firm believer in playing your best players as much as possible regardless. Watching Gaines handle the Mercury he’s gone another route more like the Spurs and Mavs who keep a few guns on the bench.
Very true. Terry can start for virtually anyone, but coming off the bench and playing during crunch time, he’s invaluable to the Mavs. I’d be very interested to know what Gentry and Co. have been plotting. I’m sure, though he won’t want to reveal what the rotations will look like just yet, further, he probably doesn’t know what they will be.
by Wil Cantrell on Sep 22, 2009 8:59 AM MST up reply actions
my guess is he doesn't know yet
more than not going to reveal…
its not like it will be a big secret after a couple of games anyway
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Seth Pollack on Sep 22, 2009 9:03 AM MST up reply actions
Suns need “practice” players, like every team. THIS sould be the role, unless they show the coach something or somebody gets hurt, of Goran and the lesser twin. They can’t be trusted to help instead of hurt the team in a game. Even when someone does get hurt, we can shrink the rotation from ten to nine. They can play slop time.
Frye is the BEST option we have to start at the 4 spot. STAT is in a contract year. He has put together his best years playing the 5 spot and has the opportunity to pad his line. More points, more rebounds, and more blocks. He just may put on a show for the ages!!!! Behind Frye, we have Lou, who can back STAT from the bench at the 5, when playing small ball, and we have (at the 4 spot) high hopes for Earl. Don’t know who will end the year as our 4 (could even be Hill going small ball)…but…barring a trade for a reliable big (like the other twin), the 5 belongs to STAT.
Want to know what is inside Gentry’s head? When I talked with him about his plan, i coud see the fire in his eyes. What new plan? Suns coach Gentry wants to start the Brazilian Blur.
MUST start and also finish with LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
I thought that too...
but then I realized BCrayZ’s grammar is awful…even for an immigrant Brazilian…no way its LB.
Go read a book!
the Scorer on the bench
LB will score off the bench out of that group. The rest are definitely decent on defense. It makes for a good Suns team. Not GREAT… but still very good!
What do we think?
J-Rich is VERY far from a lock. Will and Stan, you want him to be a lock.
Does Gentry want to start J-Rich at the 2 spot? Then ask him. When I did, he said he wants to start LB.
MUST start and ALSO finish with LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
Your act is past the tiresome point. It’s straight up annoying.
If you really think you are correct, why not post something on your own instead of sitting around attacking and criticizing.
Need help? Here is my suggestion:
“I think LB should start, here is why.” Then you can back up your beliefs with some facts and evidence as to why he should start and why “J-Rich is VERY far from a lock.” Then you can create a poll. We can all vote on it.
by Wil Cantrell on Sep 23, 2009 8:46 AM MST up reply actions
Come on dude...
Enough with the MUST start and AlSO finish stuff…we all get your point – you have a crush on LB and that’s all fine and good. However, LB is our best option off of the bench. With Dragic’s progression uncertain we need a backup PG and LB has improved as a PG every year. JRich is an All Star caliber player and a proven scorer who should get the start at the 2 with LB being able to come in and give good minutes at the 1 beside JR and the 2 beside Nash. Yes a lot of our success this season will hinge on LB and the fact that he is coming off of the bench does not make it any less so…especially since he finishes most games on the court. It’s like Terry with the Mavs and Manu with the Spurs – both have the talent to and should start but the way they best serve their teams is by coming off of the bench and giving a spark when it’s needed – LB is that guy for the Suns and should continue to be so since he fills two bench roles for the Suns (PG and SG).
by watdogg10 on Sep 23, 2009 10:07 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Dragic
I gotta disagree with you on Dragic. His progression is actually moving foward. He was incredible in the euro league just recently & also in the summer league. The only thing he is still struggling with is inconsistancy, because he had a couple bad games in each league this summer. Regardless, the fact is that he is still progressing as an NBA player, so it’s far from uncertain.
Incredible is a stretch...
He had a couple of good games and a couple of bad games and played ZERO time at the PG spot. I don’t know how playing the wing in Euro ball is going to help him become any more of a viable option at PG in the NBA. Still has a bad handle, still has issues with slow decision making and is still Goran Dragic. Look at his stats – all signs point to him being a better option backing up the wing than Steve Nash.
As for Summer League, Zabian Dowdell was the better floor general – Dragic looked better when attacking the way he would if he were playing…wait for it…on the wing!
I also forgot to mention that I agree with you 100% on the LB off the bench thing though :-)
He does need minutes at PG & SG. Both JRich and Barbosa need close to 30 minutes per game this season.
100% Agree LB off of the bench
Let’s think about the Suns Historically. Our best years have been when we have great sixth men. Look at the 88-95 run of great seasons. First we had the great Eddie Johnson coming off of the bench scoring and shooting at a great rate. After Eddie we had Majerle. He shot lights out and played with great hustle. Now we have LB. I have no doubt that he has the ability to start for 90% of the teams in the NBA at the two, but we have had a great run with him coming off of the bench. Look at the 06-07 season when he won sixth man of the year. 61 wins people. That is a great arguement for him to come off of the bench. I think he relishes his role. Behind nash and amare LB’s role coming off of the bench is the next most important. Let’s leave him there and go with what is proven in recent and not so recent history of Suns success.
by Suns Fan For Life on Sep 25, 2009 8:15 AM MST up reply actions
Yikes, forum fight…
[hides in the corner]
by Species8472 on Sep 23, 2009 10:25 AM MST up reply actions
Nah, this is what it’s all about on BSOTS!!!!
Just think if we all agreed how boring it would be around here.
I think we’re starting to have some real chemistry, er, something.
by Wil Cantrell on Sep 23, 2009 1:48 PM MST up reply actions
Son of a!
No wonder we sucked. I knew Stat was hurting, but 27 games is almost a third of the season. If he never gets hurt, we’re there.
Take care of the little things, and the big things will take care of themselves.
How to start the game?
Lopez and Frye are getting time.
With Frye starting, you’re hoping to get out of the block quickly and score some points, without giving up too many.
With Lopez, you’re hoping that he can play defense well enough to make up for his uselessness on the offensive end.
I think the biggest question is what the coaching staff is willing to risk.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
I actually think that
Lopez will be decent if he’s given consistent minutes. And it’s not like many guys on our team are fighting with him for rebounds. He can easily avg 7-8 a game.
THE PROBLEM IS… he picks up fouls like 6 at a time. If he starts and half the time picks up 2 fouls in 5 minutes, and we have to change our gameplan on the fly, would that take some flow out of us?
The year we started Diaw at center, we at least have Kurt Thomas to do some of the real center work.
Why didn’t we get someone like Nesterovic? Kris Humphries? Why did we give our last roster spot to Taylor Griffin again?
Why did we give our last roster spot to Taylor Griffin again?
Great question.
by Wil Cantrell on Sep 22, 2009 9:25 AM MST up reply actions
great question
I think they will like him in Iowa though. I hope he has a warm coat….
I do think w/ Lopez that we can’t judge too much on last season alone. Picking up fouls is normal for young bigs. It takes time to adjust to the NBA game…
If they came in ready to go they wouldn’t call it “developing young players” :)
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Seth Pollack on Sep 22, 2009 9:34 AM MST up reply actions
Hey Stan -
“Like him in Iowa…hope he has a warm coat” – VERY funny stuff.
Twin does not have a CLUE. This is not like college, where being tall is all that it would take. VERY poor draft pick. Why didn’t we go for George Hill? He would have learned LOTS playing behind Nash. Now, our best remaining option, besides signing Zabian or getting Sean back is backing Nash with our starting 2 spot, the Brazilian Blur, and giving him double duty.
MUST start and ALSO finish with the Brazilian Blur. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
My lineup...
PG Nash
SG JRich
SF Hill
PF Clark
C Amare
I know Clark is a rookie and will make mistakes but this lineup is the closest we have to returning to the Amare/Matrix/Nash days. Besides, playing wing with Nash is probably one of the easiest jobs in the L, right? I like the athleticism and speed that this lineup gives us while allowing us to bring size off of the bench. Lopez can bring good energy off of the bench but Clark is going to be the better pro so if you’re arguing about developing youn’uns Clark should be the clear choice over Lopez.
It’s sexy and athletic. But it worries me:
-Amare going back to the 5. I don’t know how he’d take that or how effective it would be.
-Defending say a Dwight Howard. Are you saying you’d have Amare take him on? Risks taking Amare out of the game with foul trouble or Howard going crazy against Clark
-I’m worried putting too much pressure on Clark early could push his development back several months. I would submit Dragic and Lopez suffered a lot from the pressure Porter put on them early on.
by Wil Cantrell on Sep 22, 2009 10:22 AM MST up reply actions
Doesn’t have to be Howard, you could insert any talented, aggressive big man in the league.
by Wil Cantrell on Sep 22, 2009 10:24 AM MST up reply actions
Name a big man in the Western Conference...
First, I can’t think of any.
Second, it has proven to work before.
Third, Clark is better than both Goran and Lopez. Goran plays (or at least the Suns think he plays) PG – the most difficult position in the league. Lopez is…well…a little slow. Either way, the Suns are not going to be a dominant team inside so using their quickness to run teams out of the gym like they used to will be playing to their advantage. Clark (from what I’ve seen) is good at coming weak side to contest shots. Like I said, there will be mistakes but his position isn’t as high profile as Goran’s and he played as the man for a very good Louisville team – unlike both Goran and Lopez in their pre-Suns careers.
West Conf Big Men-
(Not all are centers)
Gasol
Bynum
Odom
Okur
Duncan
Al Jefferson
Oden
Nowtizki
They may not all be centers but they are a load to deal with.
You’re right, going small has proven in the past, to win a lot of regular season games. That was pre Amare serious knee and eye injuries and when the squad as a whole was younger, and when we had Matrix to do a lot of dirty work on D and the boards.
Clark may be better than Lopez, but they are both unproven. Maybe Clark proves in preseason he deserves to be in the rotation, but maybe Lopez does too. As someone else pointed out earlier, the matchup is going to dictate and I’m sure there will be a lot of changes on the fly, which is very disruptive. Players want and need to know their role to feel comfortable.
by Wil Cantrell on Sep 22, 2009 10:49 AM MST up reply actions
Exactly...
Gasol – soft
Bynum – who knows
Odom – Earl Clark before Earl Clark
Okur – never posted up in his life
Duncan – kills us no matter who’s on him
Al Jeff – the best C of the West
Oden – can’t stay on the floor
Nowitzki – Not really a big man
Look, I hated the Earl Clark pick when they took him with some very good PGs on the board but the fact is he’s there and he’s got the potential to be an All-Star. They need to let him run. Obviously they can change rotations for certain opponents (I think they should have a solid starting 5 but be ready to go bigger if the occasion calls for it) but the fact is playing Amare at the 5 allows him to exploit every C in the League when Amare’s on offense plus Clark is a better help defender than Amare or Lopez – not sure about Frye at this point – which means playing him at the 4 will work better than Amare at the 4 with Lopez. Lopez fouls and Amare sucks at weak side defense.
Going small with Clark gives us a sizeable advantage in both athleticism and scoring power. Trying to match up with other teams by going bigger with mediocre bigs will make us a mediocre team because it will take away from our offensive power while adding very, and I mean VERY, little to the defensive end.
it's just whether Earl can drop his Clark and don his Supa
is it too much to ask any rookie to come in and reprise the matrix?
Size aside, asking any rookie to come in and defend against the PFs in the West is quite a leap.
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
I know...
I’ve been talking myself into Earl Clark all summer and apparently I’ve done a pretty good job. I would really like to see him in the starting lineup…I don’t worry so much about pressure because A) I think Gentry is pretty good at dealing with young guys and B) again, he starred for a very good Louisville team. I honestly think that he as a rookie is just as well prepared as Lopez as a 2nd year dude. However, if he doesn’t start I would much prefer Frye to Lopez.
Gentry is good with the young players and Earl is good
just you know the refs are gonna tag Earl for everything against the PF stars in the West. Lopez has a chance against the centers but I don’t see Earl getting much respect against those PFs, regardless of his abilities.
And yea, its Gentry’s retro version of 7SOL, so Frye fits best.
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
Here's the thing
I guarentee you that your lineup will be used at some point in many games this season, I just think that we should start Frye or Lopez to ensure that Amare stays out of foul trouble out of the gate. Clark is a great defender but is still unproven in this league. He is going to be great, but let him earn his minutes and if he proves himself, then he can look to start and/or finish games down the stretch. The Suns team this year is really going to be all about matchups
Amare at the 5
Amare said in a recent interview that if he has to play 5, he’ll do whatever it takes. He is not opposed to plying Center
Yes, but let’s remember Amare doesn’t always say what he means or means what he says.
by Wil Cantrell on Sep 22, 2009 2:05 PM MST up reply actions
He's a team player. He'll do what's asked.
He just also knows that grinding at center will limit and shorten his career. See Brian Grant. I think he has a legitimate beef.
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
he also looks bad
I wrote a long post about this some time ago…
http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2008/8/28/602929/amare-stoudemire-half-beas
When he’s matched up against guys like Duncan and Jefferson (and maybe Oden?) he gets abused and that makes he look like a worse defender than he is….or at least worse then he should be. It would be like blaming Nash for not being able to depend Brandon Roy.
Amare is and should be a power forward and he should a better defender against those PF’s like Dirk and Gasol and maybe he can be. He can’t be a good defender and rebounder against centers – even lower caliber ones like Okafor or Pryzbilla or Dalembert.
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Seth Pollack on Sep 22, 2009 3:23 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
"Amare has the upper body of David Robinson and the lower body of Tracy McGrady."
Perhaps we are asking more from him than can be reasonably delivered.
Also, I’ve learned to take his statements with a teaspoon of splenda.
He tries to say the right things, he tries to express his feelings and he tries to market himself, but it would be had for anyone to do all that without garbling the message and he garbles the message as much as a lot of people would.
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
Gentry said in the latest "Suns Special" that Frye will be our starting 5
Although I prefer Clark or Dudley at the 4 and Amare at the 5
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Should be up on youtube or suns.com soon
In the meanwhile, http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=944715
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Hello. I was going to say making Stoudemire the center would be the quick and easy (if not good) decision, just because it’s been done before. But if Coach Gentry said Frye, I guess it’s over. Unless he was blowing smoke.
Nah it aint over...
Frye might be the starter for the first preseason game but a lot could change between now and tip-off of the regular season opener.
yep, preseason is where its at.
whoever comes guns loaded and blazing…
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
according to hollinger frye was in the middle of the pack in rebounding for center in 2007-2008
maybe hell surprise you with his rebounding….
by dontTradeAaronNelson! on Sep 22, 2009 11:00 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the good news & link! =D
Offensively, Hollinger makes him sound like Kurt Thomas. Maybe he could go to the Kurt Thomas School of Dirty Defense Down Low: Swipes and Grabs.
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
I saw him in the hall today
He said hi. He doesn’t know me. I therefore conclude that he is too nice to be a KT type of post player….
</snap judgment>
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Seth Pollack on Sep 22, 2009 4:20 PM MST up reply actions
Channing just needs to also learn how to make the crazy eyes.
Kurt probably teaches that too.
This season will be even better as long as I'm drinking while watching!
It looks like he was treated that way. but sometimes money is more important than respect. remember, it is a business. Business tends to be cold and focused on the $
by Wil Cantrell on Sep 22, 2009 9:19 PM MST up reply actions
KT
was owed $8m and since the Suns were over the lux tax that meant he cost the team $16m. I loved him too, but you can’t pay Kurt Thomas $16m.
Now, the deal they made to move him? I still don’t understand why you have to pay 2 1st round picks to trade him
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @phoenixstan
by Seth Pollack on Sep 23, 2009 6:52 AM MST up reply actions
Kurt (#40) really helped our team.’
Then we decided to see how he can hurt the Suns.
Will the move that threw away one of our most important cogs and our future 9 just one year’s draft pick but a 2nd year as well) and gave this talent up so it could be indirectly and eventually used by the Spurs to help beat us in the playoffs, JUST to pad Sarver’s bank account, ever be forgiven by Suns fans of Sarver and Kerr? Stan, are you really buds with Sarver, hanging with him at his pool? Then, you will know that Gentry loves the idea of starting the Brazilian Blur.
MUST start and ALSO finish with the Brazilian Blur. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
MUST start LB. Let’s go SUNS!!!!
That trade set the tone for this season
I feel that if we had our draft pick, we’d be a rebuilding 20 win team right now. That being said, I still think the trade was a terrible move… There were probably better trades out there for KT
hey man...
i appreciate your contributions to the online BSotS community.
but…i want to see evidence that you’ve spoken with gentry and that he wants to start LB. take a tape recorder, get it on audio, that way we can hear it straight from the source.
and secondly, that move wasn’t made JUST to pad sarver’s bank account. kurt was a valuable part of our team, yes. but to pay him almost more than we we were paying amar’e at the time seems ridiculous. would you do that?
once again, i’m not hating on you, but still…the whole argument for starting LB is starting to get old. very old. pretty soon, you’re going to have more people upset with you than people that are on your side.
by Trevor Paxton on Sep 23, 2009 11:35 AM MST up reply actions
I'd personally go with Frye and bring Lopez off the bench for one more season
As somebody mentioned earlier, “Taylor Griffin-related to 2010 Rookie of the Year” is not on the poll. It definitely should be.
"I always believe there's a reason why you go through everything." -John Elway
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