Breaking Down A Potential Amare Stoudemire to the New Jersey Nets Trade
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 2:00 AM MST
in Commentary
242 comments
There's enough smoke around here to start getting serious about some of these trades. Many teams have been listed so far with more being added every day.
Reminder: You can always check out our Rumor Tracker Page for the latest
There was a bit of Internet chatter today about Amare to the Nets from a couple of sources who I've generally grown to trust but aren't close enough to the situation to consider - well, close to the situation.
It is enough though to bump the Nets to the top of my list of potential trades to break down. We've done this in the past with both Amare and Shaq rumors so why not give it another go. The point is simple, what might a potential trade with the Nets look like. We will also break down potential trades with the Bulls, Heat and Rockets in the coming days.
Amare's Veto
No trade for Amare can start without exploring if it meets Amare's stated requirements which primarily are a franchise committed winning and a big market. While the Nets are on pace for the worst season ever, they actually have a fairly bright future.
The team has a core based on a young dynamic point guard in Devin Harris and Brook Lopez who is considered already in his second year to be a top three center in the east. As an added bonus, Amare already knows how to understand Brook's distinctive voice from having played with Robin.
The market size is a no brainer and with a very wealthy new Russian owner coming on board there are strong indications that the Nets will be a team willing to spend money to win - especially if they ever get to their new home in Brooklyn.
Of all the possible trade destinations for Amare, none meet his requirements better than the Nets - despite being a 3-win team this season.
Trade Parts
A trade with the Nets would yield the Suns a combination of young talent, draft pick(s) and cap relief which is the trifecta of deal results.
Cap relief comes in the form of Bobby Simmons. Bobby isn't playing for the Nets now and likely wouldn't play for the Suns. His value comes in the form of a $11.2m expiring contract. Chance are, the Suns would try and buy him out and shave a couple million off of that figure although Simmons probably realizes that he's not likely to play anywhere else so he might just be waived at full value.
Young talent is where the fun starts. The Nets have four young players in either the their first of second seasons that might be of interest: Yi Jianlian, Courtney Lee, Chris Douglas-Roberts and Terrance Williams.
Yi Jianlian is the most intriguing of the bunch. After a disappointing, injury-filled rookie season, Yi is just starting to show some of the skills and special talent that comes when you put a 7fter on the floor who can shoot over 40% from three and still drive and handle the ball.
The Suns looked hard at Yi in the 2008 draft when there was a good chance they would have had Atlanta's pick in the top 10. At the time, the Suns reportedly like him.
Yi clearly has a lot of room for growth, especially on his defense which appears to be...not good. He's still got several years left on his rookie contract though which makes taking a flier on him a minimal risk.
The upside however, is huge. Look at Bargnani in Toronto who is finally in his fourth season starting to blossom. Yi is already a better three-point shooter (42%) and at seven per game, a slightly better rebounder as well.
Another aspect of Yi that can't be ignored is the huge fan base that he brings with him. Jersey sales will go up. Chinese marketing opportunities will open. And of course, all star ballots for Suns players will be stuffed.
Yi is no replacement for Amare but he could be another nice young piece for the Suns to build with. He could come off the bench at with Amundson behind a starting duo of Lopez and Frye. The Suns would still need help up front moving forward, but we'll get to that.
The other three guys listed are all in the 6-5 to 6-7 wing player mold. Of those, Courtney Lee is the best and most proven.
Courtney Lee, you will recall played outstanding defense for the Orlando Magic in only his rookie season. He even stepped up his game in the playoffs and showed that he could take on the challenge of guarding elite NBA players and wasn't afraid to shoot or even drive the ball.
Lee is extremely athletic and exactly that kind of defensive oriented shooting guard that teams need. Lee's numbers are down this season but he shot 40% from three and 45% from the field in his rookie season. Based on how well he played for the Magic, I will more than willing to credit his decline this year to playing with so many mediocre teammates.
If the Suns were to acquire Lee it would leave a glut at the SG position. Having him though allows the Suns to trade either Barbosa or Richardson in the off-season. Barbosa especially, could be used to land another power forward of the Nick Collison or Bandon Bass or Jason Maxielle variety.
At this point the Suns would also be able to deal Richardson for salary relief without having to try and get too much back in return. I still think Minnesota is a great fit for Jason. Best case would be some kind of deal that allows the Suns to make a hard play for Rudy Gay in the off-season but that's a long shot.
A back court of Nash, Richardson, Dragic and Lee would allow the Suns to always pair Nash or Richardson with a defensive player (Lee or Dragic) and give a solid look at a tandem of young players that could be as good as any defensive backcourt in the league when Courtney and Goran played together.
Chris Douglas-Roberts and Terrance Williams are both small forwards and while both have upside neither strikes me as being attractive enough to derail Earl Clark's progress or supplant Jared Dudley. The Suns are going to need to get a top-notch small forward at some point, but neither of these guys are it.
Draft Picks. The Nets own four first round picks in the next two drafts. They have their own for 2010 and 2011 and Dallas' pick for 2010 and the Golden State lottery-protected pick for 2011.
With the Nets record as poor as it is, the prize is their pick for this summer. It is hard to imagine them giving that up without some kind of protection. Maybe a top three or top five safeguard. They simply can't risk trading away the pick that turned into John Wall. The Suns of course, will want just that so it could come down to which side blinks first.
An alternative for the Suns to the Nets unprotected first round pick from this year could be the Dallas pick and the Nets second round pick which will be very high. As we've seen, there's value to be had early in the second round.
Or the Suns could try and get the Nets pick with a top 5 protection and a fall back of getting their unprotected pick next year or perhaps the Dallas pick this year and Golden State's lottery protected pick for 2011 if the ping pong balls do favor the Nets.
Salary Impact
A trade that sent Amare and Taylor Griffin (included to balance rosters) to the Nets and brought back Yi, Lee and Simmons would save the Suns about $1.1m this year on a pro-rated basis. This off-season however, when Simmons contract expired the Suns would be left with about $50m in salary (assuming Frye and Hill pick up their player options) which is right where the salary cap is projected to be.
It's a number however, that is well below the luxury tax which allows the Suns to get creative with moving Barbosa or Richardson and gives them plenty of room to use the full mid-level exception to go after a player like Udonis Haslem.
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I vote that I love it
Best part? With Yi onboard, Jared Dudley starts the Allstar game next year.
PSN ID- presbot
Not sold at all...
Lee is a very intriguing talent, Yi is more of a question mark and I say we don’t do this unless the pick in unprotected. But maybe I’m just being delusional…
by Lorenzo Franceschi Bicchierai on Jan 27, 2010 2:35 AM MST reply actions
Yahoo
Yahoo sports reports that the Spurs are interested at Amare… I wonder how Duncan would probably look in PHX jersey…
Saw that.
It would feel very strange trading for our hated enemy Ginobilli, but he’s their biggest expiring.
For me, the main assets from the Spurs would be Ginobilli’s expiring and the rights to Tiago Splitter. Splitter is a very sweet overseas prospect with a lot of upside. Maybe also try to snag George Hill.
George Hill, Dejuan Blair, Tiago Splitter
Spurs actually have some nice pieces
I don't think Ginobilli would even play for the Suns,.
My guess is he would be bought out or waived right away.
why?
Why wouldn’t the Suns want Ginobili? And why would they risk that he would re-sign with the Spurs immediately a la Brent Barry?
No way.
No freaking way we trade to the Spurs. If we do, it might be the only thing that drives me away from the Suns. Amare to the Spurs…NO! Blair is not that good and his knees wont last long. Ginobili is on the top of my hit list…and Hill? We already have a washed up Hill, we don’t need a second one.
Reading is good...
I want me some Courtney Lee
I’d be up for that trade, any chance we could then bounce simmons to a team desperate for salary relief? I’m salivating at the prospect of stealing Okafor from the Hornets.
As for the pick, could it be top 1 protected? basically Wall or Bust for the nets and if they do get it then we get Dallas’ 2010 pick and GS 2011 one.
Yes, this is what I was thinking.
There’s very, very, very little chance the Nets finish out of the Top 5. In fact, if they have the worst record in the league, aren’t they guaranteed to be in the top 6 picks or something like that? I’d let them have their John Wall, and say it’s top 1 protected, but then we get any other pick.
The worst team is guaranteed to pick no later than fourth, but are statistically weighted to be more likely to be first.
Yet another Suns blog: http://phxsunsnews.com
The worst team in a season
only has a 25% chance of winning the draft lottery.
Getting Okafor might be sweet. Problem is
Lopez is playing pretty well now, and I think he could survive as our starting center. Okafor would have been a great pickup if we were contending, but not so sure now.
I reckon New Orleans would want Lopez if such a trade were to happen
But they’ve made a trade today which puts them under the luxury tax line so i don’t think they’re as motivated to dump contracts.
any chance we could get the nets #1 overall pick? I mean, if they get it. John wall, anyone?
Crashing the [message] boards from the heart of Spurs Nation, San Antonio, Texas. GO SUNS!
Bottom line
it appears Amare is done as a Phoenix Sun. The guy has played well. I believe he is over-rated by some. He is solid player, but does not defend and during key moments of games disappears.
Get the best deal you can get.
Nets' 2010 first draft pick
I just thought I’d clear something up. You mentioned the Nets protecting their pick to the top 5, but you need to realize how the lottery works. The lottery is only for the top 3 picks. Starting at pick #4, it goes in order of worst team not in the top 3. Therefore, if the Nets are not one of the 3 teams to win the lottery’s first three picks, they would fall to #4.
To summarize, this means the Nets will be picking somewhere between #1-4. As a Nets fan, I’m all for trading this pick with top 5 protection since it’s impossible for the pick to fall below 4.
thanks for that
clarification and I apologize for getting that detail wrong….at 2 in the morning
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 7:48 AM MST up reply actions
I agree....
with the statement above. Amare does seem to dissappear at key moments of the game. He’s incredibly athletic, but doesn’t defend as well as we need and absolutely struggles to create any scoring opportunities for himself. He’s at his best when Nash finds him as he’s driving to the basket for a dunk, or on the pick and roll with Nash, or shooting 15-foot jumpers when he’s open for the shot. His post-up moves are not great. His best skills are his athleticism. As much as I like him and would hate to see him go, I believe we should make a trade if it’ll make the team better. I like the idea of starting Frye and Lopez. We’d get the best of both worlds with both starting. Frye would spread the defence, and Lopez would protect the paint and play the post. Getting Yi and Lee would be great for our bench. Imagine our second unit of Dragic, Lee, Dudley, Amundson and Li? Pretty solid. Starting unit could be: Nash, Richardson, Hill, Frye and Lopez. Not too bad either. Oh, and when Barbosa comes back with 20-25 games left, that could make our bench even better. And, I think we can get Clark some more playing time as well.
Geo
One more thought...
I also like a possible trade with the Bulls. How about Amar’e and Richardson for Deng, Thomas and Hinrich? I think it works for both teams. The Bulls will get an athletic scorer to go along with Rose. And, they’ll get an athletic shooting gaurd who can shoot 3-pointers and score 20+ points on any given night. We’ll get a 6-10 power forward back who along with Amundson and Clark can back up Frye at the 4-spot. More importantly, we’ll get a young, experienced gaurd who can fill in the gap between Nash and Dragic and can help us get through the rest of the season with Barbosa’s injury. And, Deng would be a great complement to our high scoring offense and already deep 3 spot. The only problem is, that would mean less playing time for Hill or Dudley. But it might work. If anything, we’ll have alot of depth. How’s this for a starting rotation: Nash, Hinrich, Deng, Frye and Lopez. Our second unit would be: Dragic, Hill, Dudley, Tyrus Thomas, Amundson or Clark. Not too bad either. You can play with the rotations a bit, plus when Barbosa comes back, he can play the 2-spot for the second unit.
Geo
out of those mentioned
I like bullls scenario the most… I love deng and loved thomas in his starting years…. and hes is getting better after injury, he could actually start at 4 with lopez… wouldn’t have anything against trading jrich…
I just hope, whichever scenario happen, players that will come will change defense/rebounding mentality of the team, rather then accepting our own…
No to Deng's contract
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Wow
Limited internet connection?
Deng’s outplaying Lewis at nearly half the price.
Deng 10,365,000
Lewis $18,010,791
Lewis can carry a team offensively Deng cannot
As we’ve seen from last years playoffs… he was the Kobe for Orlando true he has been in a rut this year.
why Thomas?
Isn’t Thomas bound for free agency? Why include him in the deal when we can observe him until the season ends and see if he is worth pursuing. Remember, Thomas would probably take time away from someone in the 2nd unit. My guess is that he (Thomas) will hinder Clark growth. As for Amundson, he needs to be in the 2nd unit a lot more.
as a Nets fan....
This potential trade intrigues me on many levels. I’ve always liked Amare and would love him on my team. However, will he resign? Would he demand max money? Would he entice a top-tier free agent to come to NJ that wouldn’t have come without him here first? If he can bring in a top free agent, will he sign for less money to allow NJ to sign that new free agent?
I guess even if he doesn’t resign, NJ still has basically his contract expiring allowing them to sign a top free agent, but him leaving may not look good to those who may be interested. I’m hoping this trade happens as long as we only give up Yi and a first rounder, but it only adds to this summer’s mysteries.
the answers to your questions
Probably, he’s said he likes the nets. Yes. Unlikely somone would come to play with Amar’e if he’s the only notable player but NJ doesn’t need to worry about tht with Lopez and Harris. You must be F******g kidding.
not sure what your stance is here dave. you think with harris, lopez, amare the nets would be solid and able to get a top-tier free agent? or are you being sarcastic?
Oh yeah sorry
i think Amar’e on his own isn’t going to attract Lebron/Wade/Johnson but the nets have Lopez and Harris as well as a probable number 1 pick and i reckon that core would be attractive especially if the nets move to brooklyn. However i don’t think theres any way Amar’e takes a pay cut, he wants as much as he can get.
I think you guys are grossly expecting too much in return for Amare. He is an expiring contract that is very unlikely to return. The Suns have nearly no leverage at all in trade negotiations as they need to simply take the best offer they can get.
by njnets21 on Jan 27, 2010 8:10 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
thats exactly why the possible 1st round pick wont happen unless its Dallas
A Dallas pick would be in the 20s.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 27, 2010 3:14 PM MST up reply actions
Great point...
One more final thought. I think the guy above is right, we’ll have to package Amar’e with someone else, preferably Richarson, to get what we need in return. I don’t want Amar’e going to any of our rivals in the West; especially not the Spurs. I think the New Jersey trade is intriguing. But I like the Chicago deal the most because I think it’ll make both teams better. And I also like Chicago and would like to see them make the playoffs and do well. I mean, they took Boston to 7 last year and easily was one of the most exciting series I’ve seen.
I’m very discontent with the Suns recent play and feel we need to do something, obviously. We probably won’t make 50 wins at this rate and probably won’t make the playoffs unless we do something. Let’s get Deng/Hinrich/Thomas for Amare and Richardson. Good trade if you ask me. I think the numbers work also.
Geo
no way the bulls give up deng/thomas for a player they may not get to keep. you guys, unfortunately, are going to be very disappointed with any realistic amare trades.
deng/ thomas for amare? im not a huge fan of this deal from the suns perspective, but i dont see why its not plausible. thomas is also an expiring. deng doesnt have a great contract. you can get a guy like deng for a contract like that pretty much any off-season. probably cheaper if the salary cap goes down.
Banzai!
by Suns' Sensei on Jan 27, 2010 12:14 PM MST up reply actions
Bulls trade mentioned won't happen.
Taking back Richardson puts Chi in the tax. They won’t pay it. Period. And absorbing Richardson’s contract takes them out of the 2010 FA frenzy. They want one of the top 3 guys. They don’t view Amare as top 3. If they could get him and still have cap space, they would. Otherwise, it won’t happen.
On the first round pick from New Jersey
I’d like to see John Wall in a Suns uniform for a variety of reasons (being a UK fan, too), but (and I say this with hesitation because the East sucks) the Nets may not improve appreciably next year with Amare in the lineup — unless Jay-Z woos LeBron.
I was about to say, “Go ahead and protect this year’s first rounder if nexter year’s unprotected is the alternate,” but I just talked myself out of it.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
UGH
Was listening to Steve Kerr on Doug & Wolf this morning and he says in no uncertain terms that he doesn’t feel this is the year to below it up and rebuild and that any trade will be to make us “better” and that he still feels we can turn it around this year and make the playoffs. Jesus, accept reality already!
I am not giving up on this season.
YES, the Suns are really really frustrating to watch because they give up huge leads and refuse to rebound or play defense with any consistency.
BUT, rebounding and defense are a good majority effort and if they can just make the playoffs(I know looking bleak at the moment) I think they can play inspired enough to make a little noise. How is this team any worse than the Golden State team that upset the Mavs in the 1st round a few years back.
I still think we are going to go on a winning streak sometime soon and people will be back on the bus.
I just know
That for one month they were 14-3, and for two months they’re pretty far below .500. Which seems more likely to me? Maybe it’s somewhere in the middle, but going off the sample size seems to suggest they’re actually a fairly bad team.
he's still got tickets to sell
they also said Marion wasn’t going anywhere just weeks before Marion was gone
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 9:26 AM MST up reply actions
He has to say that for the benefit of casual fans who are listening
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
I agree, that's what he has to say.
Actions speak louder than words.
Anyone but Yi...
As someone who follows the Bucks as well, Yi is exactly what is currently wrong with the Suns. He is a talented scorer but relies mainly on jumpshots, doesn’t play D, and is not an assertive rebounder for his size.
Courtney Lee is a solid rotation guy and potentially a defensive stopper. I’d take him. CDR seems like he is a solid rotation player. Also would take him. Really none of these guys outside of Devin Harris and Brook Lopez get me excited, but they probably wouldn’t throw those guys in, so the future 1st would have to be the kicker for me to do this trade.
I wouldn’t want Terrence Williams. I think he will be a bust. Josh Boone is a guy I would want as a throw in because he can rebound and play defense decently well.
Overall, a trade with the Nets would hopefully include Lopez, Harris, a 1st of some sort
by Superelkman on Jan 27, 2010 8:47 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
Hahah the Nets trade away Lopez, Harris AND a first round pick?
That’s pretty delusional. They might include Harris OR a first rounder, but I’m pretty sure they won’t be including Brook Lopez, regardless.
how can you decide if a guy is gonna be a bust halfway through their rookie year?
Did you think Dragic and Lopez were busts?
What about Steve Nash, is he a bust? he didn’t get going until about his 3-4th year
I'm sort of of the opinion that rookies being a bust
Is 25% the player, 75% how the team develops them.
Yeah that sounds about right
apart from Darko he was ALL bust
I don't think
I’ve ever heard of Lee described as “extremely athletic.” In fact, I’ve always heard (and seen) his athleticism to be average by NBA standards (seconded by DraftExpressprofile and NBA Draft.net profile). I mean, he’s a solid fundamental defender, but we’re not talking about Tyrus Thomas or Josh Smith here.
Also, I think overrating this guy a bit. I mean, he’s shooting .433 eFG% this season and though you argue that this is due to his mediocre teammates, perhaps it’s the other way around and his efficiency last year was due to his exceptional teammates. In any case, CDR is playing with the same mediocre teammates and playing just as well (if not outproducing) Lee. He also can and almost always does play SG, so I think you’re being a bit dismissive of him.
Last, TWill is the only “extremely athletic” player listed here who easily has the highest defensive upside and can guard SGs. Personally, I’d prefer him over the 3 other players you mention.
He’s still an all right prospect, but his play this year has been pretty weak.
Don't feel bad, Channing. We can't rebound either.
This
comment:
He’s still an all right prospect, but his play this year has been pretty weak.
was talking about Lee.
Don't feel bad, Channing. We can't rebound either.
I remember Lee
making some damn fine athletic plays in the playoffs last year…like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf7QyhN7AcU
But yeah…there’s a lot to mull over w/ these three guys and I am certainly giving Lee a lot of credit for his great rookie season while the other two I know less about
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 9:30 AM MST up reply actions
You said Lee's good play last season was a product of his teamates
don’t you think Nashty would be better at getting him the ball in his sweetspots that Jameer Nelson?
Do you mean
I said that?
And yes maybe Nash would, but that’s kind of the point. Lots of players are going to succeed in the Suns offense, so that doesn’t prove too much.
Shouldn’t we be looking for the guys who succeed otherwise?
Don't feel bad, Channing. We can't rebound either.
yeah i do think we need more guys who make plays other than nash and dragic
all i was saying was that Nelson and Harris aren’t exactly pure points and nash would drive up Lee’s eFG%.
I don’t think Lee is ever going to be an all star, but he’s a good defender and i’d love to have him.
Unfortunately,
I cannot watch that video at work.
Reason 1,203,234 for me to suck it up and get some mobile internet.
Don't feel bad, Channing. We can't rebound either.
just a series
of Lee dunks…
I seem to recall Lee playing a fair bit of point w/ Jameer out and being surprised by his ability to create his own shot and his fearless attacks at the rim
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 9:41 AM MST up reply actions
Also
I don’t think I’ve heard anyone say talk about a 50M dollar cap next season. We’re 57M this year.
Don't feel bad, Channing. We can't rebound either.
i've heard almost nothing but
a decline for next year of 5 to 10%
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 9:31 AM MST up reply actions
I want Terrence Williams.
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Dude's upside is higher than Lee's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H34EC22UKX4
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
+1
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
And I'm not remotely excited about Yi
He’s a soft jumpshooting PF. That’s it!
This guy has a bunch of Yi’s “greatest games” uploaded: http://www.youtube.com/user/sonnay#p/u
I’m not inspired. He is Chinese Channing. T-Will AND Lee AND Yi need to be in the trade + Golden State’s 2011 first rounder for me to not tear my eyes out, and even then, I WANT BEEEEASLEEEY!
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
NJN's 2011*, not GSW
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
And this is actually somehow a legitimate concern
But nobody but the Chinese gov’t know how old Yi really is. Is he a young player with upside? Or is he already 25/26?
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Agree, would much prefer Beasley and Expirings if its possible
if its not we NEED Lee+ Twill+ a pick this year and anything else is gravy
What a clown. I should compile a video of the greatest games of…oh, Solomon Jones.
by species8473 on Jan 27, 2010 11:25 AM MST up reply actions
If we cannot get the Nets’ 1st rounder, then I wouldn’t consider this trade! What PHX needs more than anything is someone who doesn’t have to rely on Nash to get their shot…and none of the players offered fits the bill! That’s why their pick (2010) should be Kerr’s main goal in this trade, if not then it’ll be more of the same ol’ same ol’…
I need a ring, DAMMIT!!
If I was NJ I wouldn't trade that pick for anybody not named LeBron, Wade, Howard, Durant
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
I think Wall has the chance to be better than both of them
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
I know Yi
has a lot of questions about being soft and I would certainly expect the Suns scouts to look at that but I also think he’s got the highest upside and am not willing to write him off based on what he’s done so far…these kids take time
Also, if you aren’t paying him $17m he doesn’t need to be able to do everything. Even if he’s only “another Frye” that’s not a bad option to have on a rookie deal.
Guys like CDR and TWill are plentiful through future drafts, D-league, etc…
7 footers with those skill sets don’t come along every day. Think about the potential of a Lopez, Yi, Clark starting front court….again, it’s all just upside at this point but that’s a pretty nice upside at a pretty low risk
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
frye is better than yi. annd as someone else said, yi is another reason why the suns would suck: jumpshots and no defense
again though
you still need guys that can score…the key is having a mix and you might recall that Kevin Durant played horrible defense his rookie season. He’s improved. Yi has only played a career 147 games and he’s shown improvement year over year…
again – 7 footers with that kind of skills don’t grow on trees
worth the risk
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 10:02 AM MST up reply actions
he’s also chinese. all these trades are bad news…stoudemire is going to suck just like when marion left because nash makes him better and he won’t realize it til it’s too late, and all these trade ideas you guys are thinking of are bad for us…the suns are going to suck if they trade him.
by kuato lives on Jan 27, 2010 10:05 AM MST up reply actions
The Suns will be rebuilding if they trade him. That's the point.
It’s gonna be a year or three of pain, yes. But that’s how you get back into true contention.
how much do you wanna bet that Amar'e is terrified he gets traded in-season
because then he’ll have half a season to prove he’s pretty much nothing without nash and play himself out of a huge contract.
I disagree. If he were afraid of being traded, he would start playing hard.
by species8473 on Jan 27, 2010 11:26 AM MST up reply actions
The assumption of most of these mid-season trades
Would be that Amare has already agreed to re-sign with the new team.
that’s not how it works. he could only commit verbally. he can’t sign with the new team mid-season or make any kind of formal agreement to do so after the season either. just ask the Cavs who were told by Boozer he would stay.
I'm pretty sure you can re-nogotiate contracts mid-seson
its only rookie contracts that have a deadline. The other team couln’t negotiate with amar’e directly though, we’d have to negotiate it and hope the other teams holds up to their side of the deal and trade for him.
Clippers, Grizzlies, and Warriors have inept management.
I don’t think the Suns FO is that bad. Even memphis has managed to overcome their bad management. Thunder fans are freaking estatic now.
A Chinese Player
Is a bonus not a detriment… especially for a GM concerned about losing $ on Amare products. How about a new market of a billion people?
There's magic out there. Telepathy. Power. Precision. Speed. But don't invest your emotional entirety or be swallowed up by addiction. After all, it's just a game.
by Permapaulur on Jan 27, 2010 10:25 AM MST up reply actions
i think i’m racist because I DON’T WANT HIM!
by kuato lives on Jan 27, 2010 10:30 AM MST up reply actions
You don't want him because he's chinese? O_o
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Yi vs Dirk
63% of Yi’s attempts are jump shots compared to 83% for Dirk and 75% for Bargnani
and the rebounding ’s for Dirk, Amare and Yi are all in the 16 to 17 range. Bargnani is about 15%
So…while he’s not an inside player/banger type of 4 he’s also not a stiff by any means
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 10:07 AM MST up reply actions
Gallinari
is worse…10% rebound rate and 86% jump shooter
perhaps we can look past his being Chinese and evaluate his actual production?
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 10:09 AM MST up reply actions
i can’t look past him being chinese..sorry man. there’s got to be someone better out there. i would seriously rather watch a starting lineup of nash, j-rich, hill, frye and lopez than some of these ideas. and we have back-ups in every position and even back-ups to the back-ups…so i don’t see how any of these trades are going to work.
by kuato lives on Jan 27, 2010 10:13 AM MST up reply actions
What's the problem with him being Chinese?
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
But Yi
can’t shoot.
Dirk: .494 eFG% (.510 eFG% career)
Gallinari: .545 eFG% (.552 eFG% career)
Bargnani: .526 eFG% (.498 eFG% career)
Yi: .439 eFG% (.430 eFG% career)
And his “40% from 3” is on 1 attempt per game. The previous year he shot 3.5 3s per game and shot 34%.
The guy has not proven that he can score efficiently at the NBA level.
Don't feel bad, Channing. We can't rebound either.
Also
I’m certain that power forwards who shoot 43 eFG% from the field and rebound like SFs are plentiful throughout the draft.
Don't feel bad, Channing. We can't rebound either.
true
and this is why he’s not Kevin Durant. …. upside
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 11:50 AM MST up reply actions
Does anyone remember last year when Gambo and Ash reported on a STAT for Durant rumour
those were the days eh?
C'mon
Guys like CDR and TWill are plentiful through future drafts, D-league, etc…
Guys like CDR are not plentiful in the D-League. Otherwise they would be starting in the NBA.
Don't feel bad, Channing. We can't rebound either.
Dahntay Jones
Matt Barnes? Raja Bell?
Those were D-league guys that made it
Just saying that the most plentiful position is SG/SF’s in the 6’5" to 6’7" size range. Guys that are athletic with defensive skills
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 11:50 AM MST up reply actions
indeed :)
I just like him b/c he proved himself at a high level already (playoffs)
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 11:54 AM MST up reply actions
Proved
is a strong word:
Lee only .474 eFG% during the playoffs for a whopping 11 pp/36 mins and almost 1:1 Ast/TO ratio.
I mean, he made some plays but overall the production isn’t that remarkable.
Don't feel bad, Channing. We can't rebound either.
you hate losing arguements don't you?
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 11:56 AM MST up reply actions
yi sucks. i will never watch a suns game again if we have that stupid chinese man on our team (no racist). and the other choices…i like cdr and lee but we don’t need those positions.
I’m sure you’re no racist, and if you were, I couldn’t tell, but remarks like “stupid Chinese man” make one look bad.
by species8473 on Jan 27, 2010 11:29 AM MST up reply actions
Rod Thorn has a long history of not taking a player with injuries in their past unless it’s an absolute bargain. keep that in mind also.
appreciate that
this is just the first of many trade options we will explore in depth…
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 10:10 AM MST up reply actions
i’m sure you’ll look at others. i’m not saying this trade won’t happen, i’m just saying there are a lot of unknowns that factor in, as with any trade scenario involving an all-star on an expiring contract. i just don’t see Thorn jeopardizing the Nets’ draft fortunes and cap space unless he is confident the player is healthy and wants to resign. it’ll be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Include JRich
Nets get:
JRich
Amare
Suns get:
Yi
Lee
Simmons
Battie
Hassell
(can Kerr squeeze out a draft pick too?)
The last three players are fillers whose contracts combine for nearly $22 million and can be bought out (all 3 are FA after this year) or can be packaged for another deal. Suns replace their 2 starters with some young talent and good upside with great contracts (don’t sell Yi short and Lee is likely to be an upgraded Raja Bell).
Amare likes the Nets and they could quickly become a force with this trade. Phoenix gets the highest value for Amare and dumps JRich’s massive contract and inconsistency for a defensive young stud. Yi is built for a run and gun team. Why not?
There's magic out there. Telepathy. Power. Precision. Speed. But don't invest your emotional entirety or be swallowed up by addiction. After all, it's just a game.
Theres no way NJ takes J-rich imo
Its one thing to sacrifice some 2010 cap-space for STAT, completely different to fill it with an overpaid SG who’s debatably worse than the guy he’d be replacing (Lee)
Suns have wasted another year being a medicore team
I think the suns seriously need to hold out for a better deal for Stoudemire.
Even though he isn’t the greatest, he is the starting center in the allstar game. That says something to his value there. He is not worth a max contract to any of us Suns fans but he will get his money from someone.
Since Amare has to accept the trade or the team trading for him get’s screwed that limits the teams we have to work with.
Why not extend amare and lock him down for a few years. That will open up our potential trade partners and give us more options. I bet there would be better offers for Amare if he was locked into a contract.
Someone will give him the money so lock him down and then trade him. Why not?
if we lock Amar'e up with a max contract because we want more value for him
then teams will seriously lowball us because they know we want rid of him and can’t afford to pay him.
Only trouble is ...
We lock him down for the max, and then there’s a lockout due to a new CBA being negotiated, and then the new CBA drastically cuts down salaries. Well, now we’re stuck paying the max for Amare and can’t trade him because everyone else can pay a lot less for their superstars now.
someone has to sign him to big money and he will get it
especially if the big names don’t go anywhere, which i expect. Then the teams that free’d up that cap space want someone to spend that money on
if we deal with the nets
The Suns need to fight for that pick alot more. Eveyone just says we won’t get it. Well if they don’t offer it then don’t trade with them.
This is a franchise changing decision. We know the Suns can’t win a championship so they need to rebuild. Start trading away what they got for young potential talent and low draft picks.If they trade amare for scrubs it’s going to kill the franchise for many years to come.
Why can’t we work towards being the next OKC? Would you fans rather watch the Suns as contructed now, or start acquiring young talented guys and build a new core? I know i would much rather watch a bunch of exciting younger players that really are working hard to be great players then what we have now.
Nash, jrich, amare, hill are all assets that dare i say it, start looking to trade….( i know i will get killed for this but it’s true, sell high on nash now) I don’t want to watch him lead the team for 2 more years, Every point guard can drive past nash at will and penetrate the lane. This automatically kills our defense. We need a defensive stopper at point guard and i think dragic can get there.
Don’t get me wrong i love dragic, clark, Lopez, and maybe Dudley, and lou. i think they are our untouchables but llet’s rebuild the core. This is the same place we were at last year with one more wasted season.
Since the team doesn’t really have a problem with scoring points, start bringing in more defensive minded players then offensive so we can properly balance the lineup. Get those draft picks and young talent. It will be more exciting.
who would we trade nash, jrich, amare and hill for?
by kuato lives on Jan 27, 2010 10:52 AM MST up reply actions
Since the team doesn’t really have a problem with scoring points, start bringing in more defensive minded players then offensive so we can properly balance the lineup. Get those draft picks and young talent. It will be more exciting.
They’ve had trouble scoring the last few games when it mattered b/c Nash is the only one who can create his own shot. Once teams up the pressure on him the offense bogs down. In whatever trade that happens they need to find someone who can score w/out relying on #13…be it someone currently in the league or a hotshot who’s coming outta college. I agree with u that they need to hold steadfast on getting the Nets’ 2010 1st pick…
I need a ring, DAMMIT!!
PGs can get past Nash
That’s a given fact, the guy just has never been an effective defensive player. However he has no effective defensive big men behind him protecting the rim. Do you think his defense would be as big a deal if he had a mobile, defensive minded big protecting the hoop? Even strong help defenders behind him would be better. We need mobile, defensive interior players as much as we need strong perimeter ones in my opinion.
i know i will be shamed again and nash is not the problem but,
The Suns will not be a good defensive team until they have someone that can stop the other point guard from doing whatever he wants. Doesn’t matter how good your interior defense is. Penetrating the lane causes other players to leave their man which opens up shots. Bottom line. A strong defense starts with a good defensive point guard. Why did dantoni get rid of Rondo, makes me sad….
rondo is a little baby…i would hate to have him
by kuato lives on Jan 27, 2010 11:20 AM MST up reply actions
i know totally
best defensive PG in the game, reasonable contract, would add a little toughness and swagger. WHY ON EARTH WOULD WE WANT THAT?
I don’t know off the top of my head, i just feel like the team needs to be much more open minded to trades.
I think a young team might not win alot of games, but neither is this team and it would be alot more exciting to watch young guys developing into all stars and building a new core then what is going on now. They are stuck in limbo of being a medicore team. You can’t get better sitting in the middle.
I love Nash and he has been great for the suns, but do you really want to watch him run the team for 2 more years. I know i’m shamed for saying it….
if we were the next OKC coming up it would be so much better to watch knowing the potential is there. The players we have now, we all know it won’t happen
amare is 27..that’s young. i’d rather keep him and trade j-rich. hill doesn’t want to be traded, he wants to play, that’s why he didn’t sign with the knicks or celtics.
by kuato lives on Jan 27, 2010 11:22 AM MST up reply actions
Yeah that's what you'd RATHER do. But this team is not likely to rebuild around Stoudemire.
And he’s our most tradeable asset.
but amar'e is going to leave anyway
and J-rich’s value is low this year because he’s overpaid. we might as well get something for STAT now and trade Richardson next year when he’s on a $14million expiring deal.
Hill only has gas for the first quarter then he is spent
I would like to see more dudley and clark for the 2nd , 3rd, and 4th quarters
i think we should look into trading hill to a contender for an expiring contract and a late first rounder
obviously only if he consents to it, but we need to develop the young’uns.
by DaveJD on Jan 27, 2010 11:31 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
just don't forget
that the Sonics/Thunder when through a long time of sucking.
1 playoff appearance in the last 7 seasons and for the last 3 years never won more than 31 games.
Phx fans are bandwagoners…a full rebuild is going to painful and it won’t be long before people are seriously bitching about that. Have to be very careful with doing too much, too fast
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 11:15 AM MST up reply actions
+1
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Part of the reason the Sonics took so long
is that they stayed mediocre for a long time before they committed to rebuilding, Once they traded allen in 2007 and drafted Green and Durant, 2008 they got Westrbrook, 2009 they got Harden- they’re really only a good post player and a few more years of development away from serious contention.
I’m not saying that doing it earlier would have made them better because the lottery results could have come up different, but (like the suns now) they wasted a few years in mediocrity with no chance of properly competing and no chance of a high lottery pick.
mediocrity is def something we should try to avoid. supergood or superbad. one or the other. no in between.
Banzai!
by Suns' Sensei on Jan 27, 2010 3:56 PM MST up reply actions
Totally Agree!
but by the sound of Kerr they’re going to try and milk this line-up for as long as possible until we have to rebuild.
They are. Paola Boivin tried to rationalize it by saying Phoenix fans simply demand success, but I wasn’t convinced.
by species8473 on Jan 27, 2010 11:31 AM MST up reply actions
I agree it’s all about commiting. The longer they try to save the Nash and amare dream the longer they sit around going nowhere. You don’t get better siting in the middle of the pack.
Committ to a rebuild and the fans will come back excited to watch these young guys develop into all stars. OKC sells tickets don’t they?
OKC is a new city
look – I am not totally disagreeing on the “blow it up now” thing. You might recall I wrote a “trade Nash” story a few weeks ago.
I am just saying…it will be tough and I am not totally convinced.
Some cities will support a bad team for a long time. Phx isn’t one of those cities
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 11:53 AM MST up reply actions
unfortunately, your last sentence is very true.
Although there was a core group of fans that supported the Cardnals all these years. But NFL fans are much more rabid.
a very small group
Those Cardinals teams in Tempe had horrible crowds unless the Cowboys or Packers were in town
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 11:56 AM MST up reply actions
DO IT TODAY....I"M TIRED OF LOOKING FOR AMAR"E NEWS
Trade him already or sign him, but to either today.
When did the Marion trade occur in the season?
by species8473 on Jan 27, 2010 11:45 AM MST up reply actions
This is a big decision, they need to make it wisely. Not get taken advantage of by another team. Even though were not big fans of his game here, he is the starting center for the allstar game and is still exciting and popular to other teams. He is our main piece to rebuild off.
Make a good decision Suns and don’t get garbage back you can’t rebuild the team with.
Please answer
Why can’t we achieve the same success other team/s have like Spurs? They have always been considered a power in the West. They basically gets older every season. They also don’t have any All-Star aside from Parker and Duncan.
Don’t get me wrong, I do hate the Spurs. But they always find some ways to win even though they get older and older.
Can we not rebuild like that? Does it have anything to do with the coaching staff?
It has everything to do with ownership
That’s it. There interest has always been building a pretty good team with an emphasis on the bottom line.
Plus, they were very lucky.
They got the pick to get Duncan because David Robinson was injured that season.
Lol i think you mean
because robinson was “injured” cough cough
Spurs
would not be the Spurs if they didn’t luck into Tim Duncan. They’ve said that. Now, they’ve done a lot of smart things since but all the smart moves in the world won’t them a ring without Duncan
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 11:55 AM MST up reply actions
definately agree, I’ve never seen a team so lucky to have a superstar (admiral ) hurt and sit out a season. Tim Duncan was their best choice as a franchise
Their real test
Will be what they do to move past Duncan. That’s kind of where we are now with Nash.
if you look at most of the contenders over the past decade
they had to go to the very bottom before they could rise to the top. dwight howard, lebron, duncan, shaq. even the celtics, who then traded the pieces they got as a perennial lottery team for KG and Allen. you really don’t see mediocre teams become a championship contender that often. unless they can trade for pau gasol…
Banzai!
by Suns' Sensei on Jan 27, 2010 12:21 PM MST up reply actions
Building a winner...it takes 3
If you look at history, the good teams have had 3 star starters, 2 role player starters, and a reasonable bench of role players. Think: Magic/Kareem/Worthy or Jordan/Pippen/Rodman. Well the Spurs had Duncan/Parker/Ginobilli. Then they’ve had role players like Bowen, Ellie, Horry and Barry that have all contributed. And they had a coach that got them to buy into the style they needed to play to win and they stuck with it. And the ownership kept them together and added parts as needed.
WE HAD THAT: Nash/Stat/Marion, with a number of role players ranging from Joe Johnson to Raja, Boris, Leandro, Q and Kurt Thomas. AND we had a coach with a system that took advantage of the skills of the players and vice-versa. And we all know the history…Joe Johnson broken nose, STAT knee, Nash bloody nose, a referee with an agenda, ROBERT FRIGGIN HORRY, and a Tim Duncan 3 point shot all contributed to us getting close, but never over the hump. So then Kerr and Sarver start tinkering…bye-bye Marion, Raja, Boris but more importantly…D’Antoni. And now, here we are, trying to recover and trying to decide what style we want/need to play. We’ve got 2 stars, need a 3rd to go with a solid supporting cast. I think Amundson could bring some of the fire we need on defense and the boards, he just needs more minutes. And Lopez, Dudley and Goran are bringing some energy. But this group needs chemistry and with the line-up changes, they’re suffering to figure each other out.
To win now we need 3 stars. We’ve got 2 now, and we’re talking about getting rid of 1 if not both of them, rather than finding and bringing in that missing 3rd piece.
Who is the second star? Because it sure hasn’t been Amare. He has faded into mediocrity, as much as it pains me to say that.
by underxthebridge on Jan 27, 2010 2:32 PM MST up reply actions
Are you kidding?
Amare to mediocrity? He hasnt played well in the last few games with the whole contract / trade thing looming thats it.
mediocrity – moderate ability or value. When you break down his numbers versus the numbers players put up against him, how can you not call him mediocre? He gets outplayed almost every other night, by forwards who are NOT considered top tier talent.
Sorry dude, but the Amare that dominated years ago is gone. And at this point it’s pretty clear that he’s not coming back.
by underxthebridge on Jan 28, 2010 2:48 PM MST up reply actions
i love Nash
but i don’t think he’s quite the caliber of the number ones you mentioned. plus, we really dont have the assets to trade for a 3rd piece to get us over the top.
Banzai!
by Suns' Sensei on Jan 27, 2010 3:59 PM MST up reply actions
He's averaging 15/7, so he ain't that bad.
Especially for $3m a year. The problem is, he’s too much like the type of players we’d always had here: not defensive-minded and “soft” … but he’s young enough that he could probably learn, as long as the Suns changed their system.
Yes, Amar'e is still a Sun's star
The man is still averaging almost a double/double. The entire team has struggled the past weeks and I think saying he’s faded into mediocrity just not accurate. Not to mention, he’s now going through what Marion went through this time of year with all the talk about “will he stay, bet he won’t”. That can’t help but wear on you. I’d suspect that anyone in a similar position right now is going through a bit of a slump. But if you look at January with wins in BOLD:
Opp Pts Reb
CHA 12 5
UTA 16 5
GSW 15 5
CHI 23 5
NJN 27 7
MEM 12 9
CHA 19 7
ATL 28 14
IND 21 5
MIL 23 10
MIA 18 18
HOU 25 11
SAC 24 8
MEM 29 6
Not exactly mediocre. Even when Amar’e played well, they went 4-4 when he scored 20+. The team’s struggles go beyond Amar’e. It’s team defense and team turnovers that are killing us. And that problem will linger even if Amar’e is traded. But we won’t have a 20-10 PF to lean on.
He’s one of the biggest problems when it comes to those turnovers though. He’s struggled putting the ball on the floor all season. I won’t even get into the black hole he creates defensively because that’s the biggest dead horse of them all.
The guy just hasn’t returned to form and it’s time to cash in while there’s still something to be gained.
by underxthebridge on Jan 27, 2010 3:34 PM MST up reply actions
i think most of the talk about trading amare doesnt have to do with him being mediocre. it has to do with him not being great but wanting the contract of a great player. if reports are true and amare does want a max cotract, then we need to trade him. there are only a handful of players worthy of the max, and i dont think amare is one of them. its the franchises that sign undeserving players to big contracts that end up struggling for the better part of a decade.
Banzai!
by Suns' Sensei on Jan 27, 2010 4:03 PM MST up reply actions
A little more in depth
It’s not only what Amare did in those games, but what the opposing PF was able to do as well. If Amare is really a top tier PF, he should be outplaying the PF on the other side on a regular basis.
CHA – Diaw 24/11
UTA – Boozer 21/20
GSW – Tolliver 19/11 (WHOOOOOOO?!?!)
CHI – Gibson 6/8
NJN – Jianlian 14/6
MEM – Randolph 27/11
CHA – Diaw 9/4
ATL – Smith 20/15
IND – Murphy 9/14
MIL – Warrick 21/10
MIA – Beasley 21/10
HOU – Scola 11/5
SAC – Thompson 14/10
MEM – Randolph 18/11
Amare suffers from Marion-itis. He has thrived in a faster paced system that has inflated his numbers, and because of his defensive liabilities and the enhanced pace of the game, it’s not uncommon to see his opponent put up better numbers as well.
Don’t get me wrong, this isn’t all on him, and I’m not acting like this is a definitive “He is always outplayed.” There are far too many variables from game to game, minute to minute. But, how often have you seen no name dudes go off against him? If he’s going to be considered a top tier talent, he has to be outplaying guys on a regular basis. He’s just not doing it anymore.
by underxthebridge on Jan 27, 2010 6:06 PM MST up reply actions
Im surprised at you guys
I love the enthusiasm comming from 200+ comments, but it seems like only a handful of you are seeing things the way they are. As much at Phoenix wants to improve itself and not be left empty-handed should Amar’e leave, you have to consider the pother team’s perspective.
Seth’s offer of Yi, Lee, Simmons + 1st rounder for Amare/Griffin seems like a winner. The Nets give up some talent, and talent they would prefer to keep, but they don’t give up their core, nor their top 1st round picks (the one included would prob be thru Dallas).
IMO I am surprised you wouldn’t ask for Harris instead of Yi, since he would be a young PG who can handle a running system and has put up solid numbers. NJ expects to get John Wall or draft another PG. NJ would give up Harris too. He’s no longer an untouchable.
Some of you can’t honestly think they would give up Brook Lopez, or even consider their top pick this year or next. What logic would that follow? Amar’e is excellent, but its the Suns in a corner, not NJ or any other team.
The Suns get deeper with this, as does NJ and you better believe that they would be an attractive spot for another top FA. They would have some exciting pieces. Big frontline, young wing players, and an exciting PG. You are right to consider them towards the top of your list, Seth.
How come you guys are so interested in moving Jason Richardson though? Sure, maybe high paycheck, but hes a proven scorer and he’s a decent defensive veteran.
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 27, 2010 3:39 PM MST reply actions
Trade with NJ
My 1st choice is that Amar’e stays and we add in other areas. That said, if he’s gonna go, I’ve said before we need to get something. I agree that I’d rather try and get Harris in that mix, and obviously the 1st round pick. The fact that there’s debate on Yi and Lee says the jury is still out. And do we end up with several players…Yi, Frye, Clarke that are similar?
exactly
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 27, 2010 3:49 PM MST up reply actions
thats a good point
i didnt consider that. i would much rather have harris and his contract then yi. i dont think yi is a bad player, but id rather have someone a little more conventional/well-rounded. however if NJ plays it safe and hangs on to him until the draft that would definitely complicate things.
Banzai!
by Suns' Sensei on Jan 27, 2010 4:06 PM MST up reply actions
Theres no way we could have harris and nash on the same team.
Harris is too small to play SG, too good to come off the bench, and the suns are too stingy to pay $20million to two PGs. I’d love harris but if we get him we HAVE to trade Nash and HAVE to start a rebuild around a youth movement of Harris, Clark, Lopez, Dragic and anyone else we get. Hopefully with a defensive emphasis from the get go so we don’t end up in 10 years exactly like we are now.
right
getting harris would definitely mean moving nash. i think harris and dragic would work out all right together. defensively they’d be solid. combined they’d replace most of nash’s playmaking. harris’ injury problems are beginning to become a bit worrying though…if we got one of williams, CDR, and lee plus a draft pick for stoudemire we’d have a young, defensively solid team. you add in whoever we get for nash plus whoever we can sign for all that 2011 cap space, and i think you have something pretty interesting.
Banzai!
by Suns' Sensei on Jan 28, 2010 2:10 PM MST up reply actions
jrich a proven scorer? yeh maybe 3 years ago
have you seen his numbers and consistency this season?
If jrich was on a much smaller paying contract and wasnt our starting/best SG then everyone would agree keep him. But he just hasnt given enuff or been good enuff since we acquired him to be our best/starting SG and his contract
Turnovers..
Amar’e has had his share, but it’s Nash, Barbosa and JRich….granted the ball handlers…that are forcing the issue at times when there’s nothing there. Maybe it’s lack of movement by everyone, maybe as teams figured out what we were doing in Nov, they adjusted and we haven’t.
Which trade do you all
want to talk about next? Bulls or Heat?
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
Welcome to Miami
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Am I the only one that just does not like any of these trade proposals? I only like NJ if we can get that pick. What about OKC? they need amare don’t they? lol maybe we can get our pick back :)
"Stop denying the inevitable, the time has come to rebuild"
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sorry boss, you have ZERO chance of getting a Top 4 pick for a guy who can opt out of his contract
"you're the Rod Thorn in my Chris Bosh side."
by Chris Child's Fist on Jan 28, 2010 9:46 AM MST up reply actions
yep
do you think the nets would be willing to trade harris before they secured wall? (im assuming your a NJ fan)
Banzai!
by Suns' Sensei on Jan 28, 2010 2:11 PM MST up reply actions
Makes sense since they can sign Amare outright this summer and then use Beasley to trade for another big name(Bosh)
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
They have a lot of cap space after this year
But not enough to re-sign Wade to the max, sign Amare to the max, and then get Bosh too. Still in their best interest to trade for these stars, because they can offer a better contract and have less competition for their services.
They can sign Amare using their FA money
Then they can trade JO and Beasley for Bosh
Then they can go over the cap to re-sign Wade since they have his bird rights.
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Once the season is over, JO's contract is already done and has no value.
JO’s expiring contract is much of what is going to give them room to sign a max free agent other than Wade.
I guess the bird rights comment makes sense, but are they going to want to go that far into luxury tax?
Maybe. Anyway, they’d have to use JO’s contract by the trade deadline, on either Amare or Bosh, then hope they can sign the other one in free agency. Having Bosh AND Amare would be kind of redundant, too.
Good points
I was thinking though that maybe they could do a sign and trade(Jermaine for Bosh), but I don’t think you can do a sign and trade with two player who need to be “signed” first.
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
if Amare is still available....
that’s the reason to pay to get him now…if they want him
and sorry btw – I ended up going GSW next. I’ll get to Miami :)
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 28, 2010 11:36 AM MST up reply actions
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