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Around SBN: Why We're Skeptical Of LeBron James

Richardson for Jamison

I read the site constantly, but I only to put up crazy trade ideas.  I'm pretty sure people are sick of crazy trade ideas anyway, so I pose this as a trade and a question: Have the Suns re-committed to a win-now mentality?

I ask only because the Suns were set up, with the Amare exception and a slew of expiring contracts (Like Richardson's) to be a player in the free agent market this summer. They apparently decided to forgo this by bringing in/handing out a bunch of big contracts (Frye, Turkoglu, Childress, etc).  I don't believe we'll be able to make a max offer to a free agent this offseason.

So, if we're trying to give it an honest go for Nash's last few years, we ought to make a run for a PF and damn the consequences.  Here's the trade:

Jason Richardson to the Cavs

Antawn Jamison to the Suns

Sure, in retrospect the Jamison and #4 overall for Amare would have been a good idea.  But Jamison is still a good idea.  

Why the Cavs do it: Word on the 'net is that JJ Hickson is getting the starting job for the Cavs.  Why pay 13 mil for a backup? J-Rich's contract expires one year earlier, plus, they have a huge whole at the SG position.  And while's it's unlikely, Mo Williams-J-Rich-Moon-Hickson-Varejo could grab and 8 seed in the East.  It's not that worse than Augustin-Jackson-Wallace-Diaw-Diop out of Charlotte.

 

Why the Suns do it: Slotting Jamison in at the PF position allows Hedo to slide to his natural SF position, with either Hill or J-Chill slotting in at the SG position.  I think the Suns are better defensively - Jamison and Turkoglu aren't great defenders, but they can hold there own at their position, and you have stoppers at the 2 and 5 position.  Jamison played SF for some of his career so he can definitely finish with Nash on the PnR.  And Jamison, plus a more involved Turkoglu, can make up for J-Rich's offense.

Besides, it's not like the Suns are currently averse to taking on long, high-paying contracts.  Doesn't this make the Suns similar to a Magic team that made the finals. 

Defensive minded, offensively limited center + shooting, finishing PF  + Turkoglu doing his thing + defensive minded SG + PG (obviously nash is better than Nelson).

Are the Suns willing to move J-Rich for a PF to push the team forward? Or is his contract expiring and is the team slowly being handed over to Dragic and Lopez?

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never in a million years, jrich is by far the more useful and better player especially when you factor age

and tendency to get injured, and we could get more value than jamison with jrich’s contract if we combine it with another player or two

"Remember this sh*t at christmas!"-Terry Crews, The Expendables

by Bkj on Oct 18, 2010 5:28 PM MST reply actions  

Gotta say no...

Yes a PF is needed, but being available and being a good addition are two things that are confused with eachother way too often. Jamison will definitely be available, unless the Cavs miraculously find themselves in playoff discussion, but he is just not that… good.

Average across the board. He’s sort of a stretch 4, but his outside shooting is spotty and he has too many cold streaks. Rebounding? Pedestrian. Defense? Ho-hum. Intangibles? I haven’t seen any. To replace a playoff firestarter with a painfully mediocre PF would solidify a first-round exit.

As for the collateral damage, Dudley would be overexposed as a starter, imo. He’s great in 6-8 minute bursts, but he would be an average starting 2. Rich is likely to be the Suns’ leading scorer this season, if you replaced him with Tawn, would Tawn be the leading scorer? Ugh. I normally don’t adhere to “rules of thumb” or “conventional wisdom”, but if Antawn Jamison is your team’s leading scorer, your team sucks. Or maybe it’s average, but in an exceptionally sucky way.

So no thanks, plugging holes for the sake of plugging holes will just create new ones.

"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic

by RMason on Oct 18, 2010 5:32 PM MST reply actions  

But by that same logic

How have teams with J-Rich as their leading scorer gone? Not even to the playoffs.

Hedo would be the leading scorer. They went to the playoffs with him in this role, and he was basically the co-leading scorer when they went to the Finals. Jamison is a better PF that Turkoglu (because Turk’s a SF). Turk’s a better SF than Hill (God willing).
Filling two wholes and , opening one.

I do completely agree that a Jamison led team is destined to crapitude tho.

by UASun on Oct 18, 2010 5:57 PM MST up reply actions  

Hedo wasn't even second in scoring on those Magic squads

J-Rich as a leading scorer isn’t that big a problem, it’s J-Rich as the best player on your team that’s the problem. As long as Nash is here J-Rich is the much better fit as a scorer and probably the best compliment to Nash on the entire team.
  
We shouldn’t get rid of J-Rich for a lesser player just to become a more traditional team.

by hcblankscreen on Oct 18, 2010 6:53 PM MST up reply actions  

Being a big Wiz fan

Jamison is a lead by example guy and great competitor, one of the few circle-the-wagon guys we could count on after gungate. The Suns could do worse…but his defense is worse than ho-hum. Watching KG annihilate Antawn in the playoffs should drive it home that you do NOT want to see him guarding Gasol.

We're from the city with the highest murder rate in the country. Why WOULDN'T they call us the Bullets?

by Bullet Nation in Exile on Oct 20, 2010 12:24 AM MST up reply actions  

Precisely right

Antawn ended up being the centerpiece of some of the worst Wizards teams that they’ve ever fielded. They were best when he was a 3rd option offensively.

Wizards will be better this year, Gilbert or not. Watch for JaVale McGee. He’ll be 2nd in the league in blocks this year. Only the coach stands in the way…

by jc79 on Oct 20, 2010 9:57 AM MST up reply actions  

Not a big fan of Flip Saunders in any way.

Part of the reason I don’t see them challenging for a playoff spot this year.

by Omaha Sun on Oct 20, 2010 2:20 PM MST up reply actions  

I’d say more like Hedo for Jamison if things don’t work out. J-Rich for Jamison is just asking for failure.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Oct 18, 2010 8:37 PM MST reply actions  

Now there’s an idea.

by 8472species on Oct 18, 2010 8:38 PM MST up reply actions  

hedo & earl at the trading deadline.

King of the castle! King of the castle!

by luisandro1530 on Oct 18, 2010 9:03 PM MST up reply actions  

Or they could pull a "Lakers"...

And just give up Earl and Janning for him.

They're trying to take my tortillas!

by N-Temp on Oct 18, 2010 9:30 PM MST up reply actions  

Now that would be interesting

But we’d have 11 guys who need minutes.

Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."

by rsavaj on Oct 20, 2010 12:08 PM MST up reply actions  

why would the cavs want hedo?

they’re rebuilding, you don’t rebuild with 31yr old small forwards on $10mil a year contracts.

by DaveJD on Oct 19, 2010 9:47 AM MST up reply actions  

Thank you.

We're from the city with the highest murder rate in the country. Why WOULDN'T they call us the Bullets?

by Bullet Nation in Exile on Oct 20, 2010 12:25 AM MST up reply actions  

I'm still trying to figure out...

why the Suns wanted him.

Seems like a pretty bad contract for a guy who is interchangeable with 6 or 7 other players on the roster who make less money.

Have you ever gone to the store intending to buy a particular product, but when you got there they were out and instead you winded up overpaying for some piece of junk that doesn’t even come close to doing the job of what you really wanted in the first place?

The Suns can empathize.

by Jim Coughenour on Oct 20, 2010 1:22 PM MST up reply actions  

Hedo's skillset isn't interchangeable with 6 or 7 guys in the league let alone on the suns

he’s a 6’10 pg. If we’re getting the hedo of the orlando days then he’ll be a big plus after Nash goes, i said countless times last year during all the amar’e trade speculation that when Dragic becomes our starting PG we’ll need another distributor on the wing because Dragic does look to score more than Nash and has more of a scoring mentality. Hedo (should) bring that. I like to look at him more as a piece the Front Office saw they could acquire for the future who could also act as a more than decent stopgap for the present. I don’t think anybody within the suns see’s Hedo as being our long-term 4, in fact i think after this season (or during it) we’ll look to use J-rich’s expiring deal (either with his return on a smaller deal, its expiration, or via trade), some of our young pieces (dudley, Warrick, Lawal, Clark, Dragic etc) and the remaining TPE to acquire a stud prospect or a legit star to help us further out of the transition from being a team based solely around the gifts of Nash (which is what we’ve been for the last 7 years or so) and start to become a team built around our young guys for when Nash eventually calls it quits.

by DaveJD on Oct 20, 2010 3:43 PM MST up reply actions  

A point about Hedo i forgot to make

if he plays anywhere near his orlando form then we’ll have made a steal of a trade. You think at the 2008 trading deadline if kerr had called up Orlando and offered Barbosa for Hedo he’d have heard anything other than laughter as the phone got hung up on him?

by DaveJD on Oct 20, 2010 3:46 PM MST up reply actions  

Great point.

Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy

by haremoor on Oct 20, 2010 6:26 PM MST up reply actions  

I see your point, but I’m not sure that Hedo’s utility outlasts Nash’s in the NBA, or even the Suns, unless you expect Nash to retire or leave for another team after next season.

Banzai!

by Suns' Sensei on Oct 20, 2010 9:02 PM MST up reply actions  

well Nash is 37 and Hedo is only 30

i’d assume Nash will retire before Hedo’s contract with us is up

by DaveJD on Oct 21, 2010 3:13 AM MST up reply actions  

But will Hedo age as well as Nash?

That’s the question. If Hedo isn’t able to bounce back and the dropoff last year was more than just a fluke and it continues for the next couple of years, it won’t do us any good.

That’s the pessimistic look at things though.

by Omaha Sun on Oct 21, 2010 9:16 AM MST up reply actions  

I'm hopeful

Shaq was a wreck when he came here but thanks to the suns staff and the influence of guys like Nash and Hill he threw up 17 and 9 in the year or so he was here. He may not age as well as nash (who does) but i think he can still be productive in the last hyears of his contract if hes motivated.

by DaveJD on Oct 21, 2010 10:23 AM MST up reply actions  

Ya that was my line of thinking. Will Nash at 39&40(assuming the Suns extend him) be more productive than Hedo at 32-33? My guess is Nash, but as Dave points out above, maybe the change in environment will help Hedo extend his career.

Either way, I’m not a big fan of allocating money to a forward who already seems in decline in the hopes that he can help bridge the Nash-Dragic eras. After all, it shouldn’t be that hard to find a playmaker at least as good as Hedo for the money he gets over the final 2 years of his contract.

Banzai!

by Suns' Sensei on Oct 21, 2010 6:33 PM MST up reply actions  

Nash has problems with Childress? or is it vice versa?

SunsfanfromChicago claims that Nash also has problems adjusting to Childress, which I hadn’t heard. Does anyone agree? I don’t know, but since Nash is the point guard and leader of the team, whenever he and anyone else are slow to adjust to each other, it should be viewed as the new player needing to adjust to Nash more than vice versa.

by 8472species on Oct 18, 2010 8:43 PM MST reply actions  

so the games don't matter

Alex Laugan and others keep saying the preseason games don’t matter. In that case, I’ll try to completely ignore the results. So what am I supposed to expect this season? Will the players stop fooling around and play with appropriate ruthlessness as soon as the season starts?

by 8472species on Oct 18, 2010 9:00 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

Don't completely ignore it, just look for the little stuff.

Watch how Robin is looking in the post. Watch how J-Rich is stepping up as the lead scorer. Watch how Steve is playing with some of the new guys. Watch what Chilly is doing. Watch to see if Channing’s big man skills are improving. Watch how Hedo is adjusting to a new position.

That’s the kind of stuff you can look for in a preseason game and that’s what you can base expectations off of.

by Omaha Sun on Oct 18, 2010 9:19 PM MST up reply actions  

Exactly right.

And that’s why the lack of games on TV sucks hind udder. But thank the heavens for the Internet – it even lets you rewind
  As far as what we’ve seen, I think we can say that our starting unit is fine, our second unit has some gelling to do, and our 11-15 (17) guys can’t hold a lead – but they can play some ball. You can’t get bound up in stats – the sample size is small, differences are exaggerated, I could sample 5 games last year and prove to you that Amar’e is a 22 rebound per game guy. While scoring 32. I’m also very surprised at the difference in what I’ve seen in the spotty pre-season coverage I’ve witnessed and what I’ve read – reading would lead you to believe that we sucked the entire game, but in reality, we found some very bad combinations for short periods of time. We’ve got a very good, very athletic, very smart team. We’ve got a ton of depth. We are certainly, absolutely going to get better every game – this is not a team that will regress.
  Gentry is taking it for a test drive – seeing how it handles before he opens it up. The race ain’t started yet. Insert awkward cliche’ here.

Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy

by haremoor on Oct 18, 2010 10:41 PM MST up reply actions  

Don't worry species.

This team will have no ruth once the season starts.

"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic

by RMason on Oct 19, 2010 9:17 AM MST up reply actions  

Preseason can illustrate trends..

they just aren’t absolute.

The Suns are going to have a hard time at all things related to size. We knew this – we’ve seen this.

Scoring and shooting have been down. The starters have lead after most of the first quarters until Gentry unleashed the dreaded third unit. This is an adjustment to the pieces that changed. I’ve heard the bad three point shooting is attributed to missing open looks, not contested ones, so no big deal. Scoring might drop a little this year, Amare was the best scorer on the team.

Turkoglu is still a big question mark – just like the day he arrived.

Childress still looks like an effective role player.

Gentry obviously doesn’t care about winning games in the preseason and has coached as such. Since he doesn’t care about the score, why should I?

by Jim Coughenour on Oct 20, 2010 1:55 PM MST up reply actions  

No trading JRich until the trade deadline approaches

His value skyrockets around then, regardless of his seasonal output.
However, if he’s doing well, the Suns could get some really nice swag in return for his expiring contract and production.

by ajotanelsona on Oct 19, 2010 9:19 AM MST reply actions  

never ever jrich for Jamison. No No No No

Jamison sucks we don’t want him

rgreyslak@gmail.com ____ twitter @rgreyslak

by RGreyslak on Oct 19, 2010 10:14 AM MST reply actions  

The more I think about the idea

The less I like it, and wish I could distance myself from my own post. I think it really comes from this underlying malaise:

Hedo Turkoglu as a PF? Really? I like to think of myself as an overly optimistic suns fan, but I still haven’t talked myself into it. It won’t work. We all know it. He would be a great fit at the SF position for this team. I just desperately want a PF. Who else is available ?

None of this Josh Smith/Kevin Love nonsense (that I once peddled). If we pick up either one of those guys, without giving up Nash, it would be as one-sided as the Gasol trade.

I keep hearing that we’ll be able to pick up gold at the trading deadline, but why? What gold? The Cavs and the Raptors still have their full trade exception (unlike us) and there are tons of big expiring contracts. What makes J-Rich such good trade bait?

by UASun on Oct 19, 2010 4:54 PM MST up reply actions  

JRich is good trade bait because he’ll likely have a career year scoring (1st option this year w/o Amare), and he’s coming off last year’s exemplary postseason performance, which has people thinking him to be a clutch performer. But it’s not just JRich.

Warrick’s contract is a bargain by NBA standards for a quality backup player, and his last year isn’t fully guaranteed, so he’d be attractive to any team whose plan requires them to rebuild in about 4 years.

Dudley is already worth far more than his contract. He’ll be a restricted FA at the end of the year, but typing up rights to make the Qualifying Offer is a bigger deal than usual, considering that a new CBA is looming which may make it a LOT less expensive to retain him for another few years afterwards.

Childress has the potential to significantly outplay his contract as well, in which case the amount of his contract might be rolled up with 1-2 other midsalary type players and traded for someone really good.

Lastly, there’s Dragic and Lopez. Nobody here really wants to see either of these players go, as they represent the future, and potential. However, if moving one of these 2 guys would make it possible to bring back a Chris Paul or Carmelo Anthony, one would have to think that management would be willing to pull the trigger and send them packing.

In short, the Suns, as presently constructed, are built with the goal of trading multiple players who outplay their contracts, for another star/superstar. Will we succeed in that? We don’t know, but we’d all like to think so.

by jc79 on Oct 19, 2010 5:31 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

See, I think that's good logic

But I can’t think that any team would trade a star for anything headlined by Richardson-Warrick-Dudley-Childress.
Teams nowadays seem to trade only for young players or massive cap relief. Not useful rotation players. Matter of fact, Richardson-Dudley for Diaw-Bell was literally the last trade I remember that was basically role-player oriented.
The Knicks currently won’t trade Carmelo to the Knicks even though they’re offering Anthony Randolph (a much sexier prospect than Dudz-Dragic-Lopez) and massive cap relief (they’re willing to take K-Mart or other toxic contracts, whereas J-Rich’s contract means we can only take one big player in).
If that doesn’t get it done, who could we possibly get?

by UASun on Oct 19, 2010 6:53 PM MST up reply actions  

I disagree on this
Randolph (a much sexier prospect than Dudz-Dragic-Lopez)

Randolph is fading into Earl Clark territory. He is uber-talented yet has 0 bball IQ. Two of the easiest coaches in the league on talented players – Nelson and D’Antoni – have both benched him despite his skills being perfect for their sytems.

I know the Earl Clark comparison is tough, but can’t you see him putting up 11 and 6 on Nelson’s Warriors with 35 minutes a night? One night with 20 and 10, followed by the next night at 2 and 1. That’s all Randolph delivered. Look it up.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Oct 20, 2010 8:19 AM MST up reply actions  

It was actually 11 and 6 in 22 mpg which is a BIG difference

he would be 18 and 10 in 35 mpg.

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
Tweetin' at @JaxisZ

by Jaxis on Oct 20, 2010 8:17 PM MST up reply actions  

good point

but he still hasn’t won big minutes with either coach, and those guys always give big minutes to their rotation players.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Oct 20, 2010 8:32 PM MST up reply actions  

Agree with Alex on Randolph

but also consider, Dudley and Dragic are getting quite a bit of love from the national media. Dudley is being viewed as the next Shane Battier / James Posey type. ragic’s waxing of the Spurs turned more than a few heads.

Both of these guys are also very young. They ARE young talent, and we also have draft picks that could be used (unlike NY).

Not that I think we’ll get Paul or Anthony. Neither wants to play here, and that’s an important consideration.

by jc79 on Oct 20, 2010 9:52 AM MST up reply actions  

Very good observations, JC.

Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy

by haremoor on Oct 20, 2010 10:17 AM MST up reply actions  

No. This trade sucks

Quite simply Jamison sucks when the games count most. He’s a Channing Frye type, in that he plays small when the game is big. Richardson, on the other hand, plays big during big games. I don’t care about your regular season stats if you don’t do the same thing in the playoffs.
Once again, this trade sucks. It makes us instantly worse.

by Pick1Team on Oct 19, 2010 10:13 PM MST reply actions  

I concur

But Jameson is much better than Frye. Jameson is a legitimate scorer with a lot more than an outside jumper and a very solid rebounder, I think the dude averaged 10 boards throughout a lot of his career. He would be a terrific fit at the 4 for us if the price was right, but certainly not for JRich unless we’re not planning to resign JRich and we are trying to make a push.

Aint crazy, just bitter and Hedo still sucks.

by PandRisDead on Oct 19, 2010 10:45 PM MST up reply actions  

Jameson WAS better than Frye

but that is no longer the case. Frye is young and his defense is improving. Jameson is on his way down. His defense, always bad, has devolved to the point where it’s just completely atrocious.

by jc79 on Oct 20, 2010 10:15 AM MST up reply actions  

So you're saying Jamison > Frye?

lol

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
Tweetin' at @JaxisZ

by Jaxis on Oct 20, 2010 8:22 PM MST up reply actions  

Sorry, I wrote it wrong lol

I meant Jamison < Frye

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
Tweetin' at @JaxisZ

by Jaxis on Oct 21, 2010 10:39 PM MST up reply actions  

The ONLY reason to trade JRich, IMHO, is to get back a franchise player.

Like Horford. He is much more available than a week ago – see the article on BDL. Even so, I don’t think we would need to trade JRich – just have cap room.

Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy

by haremoor on Oct 20, 2010 10:21 AM MST reply actions  

I wish someone knew what the Hawks mgmt was doing

Because from what I see, even Hawks management doesn’t know what they’re doing.

It’s like trying to plan around what the crazy guy is doing. You can’t predict his next move. He might be witty and charming for 5 minutes, but then he might grab the baby and jump out the 2nd story window afterwards.

by jc79 on Oct 20, 2010 10:57 AM MST up reply actions  

Your comment made me think of the cigar smoking uncle in "National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation".

Thanks for the belly laugh.
   But seriously, they may be stupid enough to let him go – or they may do something completely unpredictable.
I just don’t want this franchise to do something dumb in a panic. We aren’t going to get Amar’e back, or even a reasonable facsimile by going for a power forward who is available. We probably can’t even improve on Warrick by doing that. It will take a long term plan, some guile, and a lot of luck to sign a franchise player – and there are a lot fewer franchise players than there are franchises. Hell, we may even have a stud in Lawal, judging from reports. Or maybe the light comes on in Clark’s brain, or D. Collins takes Europe by storm. But knee jerk reactions aren’t what is called for until we know the structure of the new CBA – then, maybe we package 3 players and a pick or two, and get someone to go with our core of Lopez/Dragic/Frye/Childress/Dudley to carry us into the next five years. And yeah, Turkoglu may be an important cog in that machine.

Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy

by haremoor on Oct 20, 2010 11:18 AM MST up reply actions  

Lunacy-- never trade J-rich!!

No, we need to keep “Kobe Who” to maintain our scoring punch. I would definitely sign J-rich for $14 Million, even a max deal. We can’t let the Suns become like the Memphis Grizzlies. (Lots of size {Marc Gasol, Hamed, and Thabeet}, but not enough scoring).

Go out and get Jason Thompson, Earl Barron, or even just sign Dwayne Jones (again, this time for some guaranteed money).

About Jason Thompson, I think the best plan would be to trade Griffin and Clark plus a 2012 draft pick for Thompson and a TPE of $500 K or so [Enough to sign Dwayne Collins later]. At least we would keep Dudley.

We need to have Dudley for when Hill retires. We don’t want to panic about the PF spot and lose perimeter defense.

The one other thing we would need to get cleared up is a word from Turkoglu— would he be willing to be out of the "starting line-up’, if he got an equal number of minutes, and played SF and combo guard rather than PF? We also would have to have Thompson fit in with the team.

by Eagle Sun on Oct 20, 2010 5:21 PM MST reply actions  

If Amare isn't worth a maximum contract, neither is Jason Richardson

Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."

by rsavaj on Oct 21, 2010 11:10 AM MST up reply actions  

+1

for sure

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Oct 22, 2010 8:27 AM MST up reply actions  

About last two questions

If the answer to either of the last two questions is no, The Suns should get Dwaye Jones or Earl Barron to be a bench PF, and leave things as they are.

by Eagle Sun on Oct 20, 2010 5:22 PM MST reply actions  

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