SB Nation Arizona Editor's Pick
My Last Amare Rant
by JSun on Oct 28, 2010 8:31 AM MST
Email
PrintEven though I suggested that I should shut up in this post, I'm going to do this thing one last time.
The difference between the team that ended the game Tuesday night in Portland and the team that ended the games last year was one player. I won't name him, and I'm not calling him out. He is what he is.
Two things I connected really got my panties in a bunch.
First, all the talk of "chemistry" and "assimilating" and "figuring things out" is bogus. The game was lost in the last 5 minutes, and the only difference was that one guy being on the floor. Don't tell me that it was a lack of cohesiveness or bus-ride-inspired Meat Hook Productions or JMZ channel reporting that caused the 18-1 run. When Steve Nash said he needs time to "figure things out" what he means is that he's got to go back to the lab and figure out how he can make another group of players play their best. Put diplomatically -- how to best use the talents and assets of his teammates. Put bluntly -- how to cover up the weaknesses of his teammates. He's played to the strengths and away from the weaknesses of his Suns teams every single year.
I'm sure the mad scientist will figure it out again. I don't know when, but "In Nash I Trust." Even so, I'm not sure how far his brilliance gets the Suns I can sort of relate. When I coach kids, I always measure my effectiveness as a teacher by how good my worst player is (not by how good my best player, with God-given talent, instincts and athleticism happens to be).
Second, on letting Amare Stoudemire go. I know that the concern were the last years of Amare's 5-year contract. I also know that Indiana fans wished that the Pacers' FO hadn't maxed out The Drain's contract, even though they got a couple of good years out of that long-term contract. Here's the difference -- the Suns were knocking on the door of a return trip to the Finals with the core returning, a formerly green bench becoming battle-tested, the smartest floor general in the game, a handful of tradeable commodities (how'd you like to see Hedo coming off the bench for Amare or Hill?) and a rabid hunger to return.
(Sidenote: I liken this to Anquan Boldin's departure. The fans gave the younger Bidwell a pass on this one based on recent success, but it was a mistake as far as team quality)
In Year 4 of Amare's contract ($20M), the Suns are also going to be paying Channing Frye, Hedo Turkoglu, Josh Childress and Hakim Warrick a total of nearly $30M (I think Hedo's is a team option of $12M, half guaranteed, so that's not totally fair but it is close). Point being is that the dollars in Year 4 have a chance to be just as bad and the results have a potential to be just as damaging to the team. The difference is that in the first 2 to 3 years, the Suns can stay in the NBA elite with plausible dreams of reaching the Promised Land. Now, the next 2 to 3 years are going to be filled with enjoyable basketball moments without a plausible chance.
186 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
If you're so sure Amare would've been the Suns savior last night...
How did the Blazers beat us 4 times last year (twice in regular season, twice in playoffs) when we had Amare?
"One defends when his strength is inadequate, he attacks when it is abundant."
~Sun Tzu
That would be a legit argument...
If it weren’t for the fact that the Suns blew the Trailblazers out in games 5 and 6 WITH Amare Stoudemire
The Blazers are a nightmare matchup for Phoenix, with or without Amare. Last night was a reminder of that.
The Blazers with Roy and the Blazers without Roy are two totally different teams. In the playoffs, Nash could hide on D against a comatose Rudy Fernandez. Last night, he had to cover Batum and Wes Matthews. Totally different ballgame.
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
by RMason on Oct 27, 2010 4:35 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Truth.
"This [basketball] is the second most exciting indoor sport, and the other one shouldn't have spectators."
by Basketball GF on Oct 27, 2010 4:37 PM MST up reply actions
A healthy Blazer team would’ve knocked the Suns out of the first round. If they stay healthy, they’re conference finals bound.
IF...............
My aunt had balls,shed be my uncle………IF
by stevedavis_ on Oct 28, 2010 8:43 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
so true.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Oct 28, 2010 9:11 AM MST up reply actions
Not necessarily
There’s always the transgender community.
by suns68 on Oct 28, 2010 9:16 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
is it a community?
am i missing anything fun?
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Oct 28, 2010 9:19 AM MST up reply actions
My point is
The Blazers already have the tools. We don’t. “If” applies to every team; the difference being that some teams “ifs” are a lot more probable. I’d rather be hoping that our stars stay healthy than waiting to see if the new lineup will work out or not, and still be considering trades.
In Year 4 of Amare’s contract ($20M), the Suns are also going to be paying Channing Frye, Hedo Turkoglu, Josh Childress and Hakim Warrick a total of nearly $30M
That’s a black-and-white way of looking at things. It’s highly unlikely that all four of those guys will be Suns in three years. The idea was to obtain versatile players on flexible contracts (Hedo notwithstanding on the latter part of that) to keep the window open for both competitiveness now and acquisitions in the future. If those guys are all still here in three years, then the plan will have failed. We just have to wait and see.
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
On the "moving parts" thing
Unless the CBA changes, you’re going to get similar quality players and/or contracts or you’re going to have to do some major selling and rebuild. Similar scenarios
Mmmmm ... Guinness
Puting us in play for future free agent signings?
Dan Marino (13) and Steve Nash (13) will go down in history as being the greatest passers to never win the last game of the season.
Hm.
(Sidenote: I liken this to Anquan Boldin’s departure. The fans gave the younger Bidwell a pass on this one based on recent success, but it was a mistake as far as team quality)
Maybe if the Suns had a player at the same position who was significantly better than Amare in addition to a second player who wasn’t as good but could at least reasonably fill the void.
On the post as a whole – interesting stuff but I’ve got to hope that there are other moves coming. If there aren’t? You’re probably 100% dead-on.
RIP Seasons of Discontent
This would be a fair analogy if Steve Nash had retired.
If Steve (Karner) retired, the team was not going to challenge with or without Amar’e (Boldin).
Extend Jared Dudley!
or if the Suns received draft picks.
Banzai!
by Suns' Sensei on Oct 27, 2010 8:07 PM MST up reply actions
That's why I said "liken" not "equate"
Not to talk too much Cards, but Fitzgerald is suffering. 11 players versus 5 changes the dynamic quite a bit. My point — pay the man and bolster a team that’s got a shot.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
a lot of levels
Right now, 7-year old kids soccer and 5-9 y/o martial arts.
Over the last 15 or so years, it’s been soccer through about 14 y/o, basketball up through 7 and martial arts from 5 through seniors.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
I'm coaching 5th grade boys basketball this year.
Question: how do you deal with the kids that don’t really care about playing and are only there because their parents made them?
Extend Jared Dudley!
that's tough, and it requires parental participation (and a few chapters -- but here goes nothing)
In general, the best thing to do is to praise — over-praise — the smallest accomplishments. Also, don’t forget about the compliment sandwich, e.g., “You really dirbbled fast with that basketball. Now, remember, in order to make it through the cones more easily, you might need to slow down an bit. Once you’ve got that, you can get through all the cones with your blazing-fast speed.”
You also need to be willing (able, with some parents) to bench players who aren’t trying. Losing is okay, but failing to try in practice or games is not. And, do not be dramatic about it. Sit ‘em down while you’re smiling.
Parents need to give out similar rewards and “punishment” (“punishment” is the wrong word, thinking of it as denying access). E.g., for listening to coach and trying hard, they get double-scoop ice cream.
After building some forced enthusiasm, competitions work well. In soccer, I love the drill where you put the ball in the middle and have two kids race after it and try to score. Then, the winner stays. If the winner wins too much, make it harder for him to win (he has to run out backwards).
Most important is a positive attitude. You don’t want to look silly, but be confident. A voice with presence is good. Don’t worry about what others think. Be the confident, but not annoying, guy in the bar picking up chicks.
That’s about the best I can do here
Mmmmm ... Guinness
You can't just blame the FO
Watching and listening to the things Amar’e is saying, this is what he wanted all along.
Sure is one ugly line he’s putting up right now. 12 & 9 on 4/12 shooting with 7 TOs. Also, Reggie Evans has 16 boards matched up against him. Dude should not have left for his game’s sake.
Man the media sure is in love with Amar'e now
The Knicks barely pull one out against the Raptors and Amar’e has a crap game, but you wouldn’t know it by the headlines.
All you see is “Double-double” and “Amare leads”, but you don’t see “Shoots 7/16”, “Has 9 TOs” or “Reggie Evans nabs 16 rebounds against Stoudemire”. Sure I wish he were still here, but if he’s gonna go off to New York to be the man he shouldn’t get an inch.
by hcblankscreen on Oct 27, 2010 11:41 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Agree, and especially the amateur media around here
We lost game 1 of the season to the Blazers at Portland with a healthy Brandon Roy and somehow it’s all about missing Amare, even though we lost game 1 of the playoffs last year to the Blazers in Phoenix without Brandon Roy playing. As RMason wrote earlier, Portland is a nightmare matchup for us, as shown by the way they gave us all we could handle in the playoffs even when they were so banged up.
Letting Amare walk was a long-term strategic move. The results of one game don’t prove jack.
"One defends when his strength is inadequate, he attacks when it is abundant."
~Sun Tzu
by East Bay Ray on Oct 28, 2010 8:48 AM MST up reply actions
it is kind of infuriating
watching the ESPN line: Stoudemire: 19 points, 10 rebounds in Knicks debut.
Wonder how many plays he took off. Wonder how many points the guys he “covered” scored.
I really hate the mainstream media more and more. Just hop on anything that’s a potential story and exploit…Guess I was naiive to think anything would change.
And the LeBron commercial: “Who should I be?” Shut up. Just shut up. The donut part wasn’t even humorous.
And to the point of the post….Some decent arguments, but at this time it’s all could should, woulda. And if STAT/The One/Sun Tzu/Gorilla was on this squad still, we’d still be bashing him every third game or more for doing what he usually does.
The thought of Hedo at age 35 is scary. Downright scary.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Oct 28, 2010 9:17 AM MST up reply actions
they won the game.....and he scored 7 big points down the stretch
hey and when is the last time amare was on a losing team? 03? he’s always been on winning teams and been averaging 23pts and 9 rebs. He’s one of the top 10 offensive players in the game, stop hating. When we dont get to the playoffs this year, maybe u will finally realize how good he was.
The last time he was on a losing team was when he was on a team without Steve Nash
Funny coincidence there, huh?
"One defends when his strength is inadequate, he attacks when it is abundant."
~Sun Tzu
by East Bay Ray on Oct 28, 2010 9:38 AM MST up reply actions
well he made the playoffs with marbury as his PG the year before his one losing season...
if we didnt give marbury away, the record wouldnt have been as bad.
the knicks will make the playoffs
and the suns wont, nuff said
Yeah, but will the Knicks have a better record than the Suns?
by hcblankscreen on Oct 28, 2010 9:45 AM MST up reply actions
maybe
i say the knicks will win 44 games and we will win 41
Flagged
For inappropriate use of the term “nuff said”.
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
by RMason on Oct 28, 2010 12:14 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
He also had 3 big misses down the stretch
To go along with two turnovers.
by hcblankscreen on Oct 28, 2010 9:45 AM MST up reply actions
Amare stunk, the media spun it otherwise
That’s the point.
by hcblankscreen on Oct 28, 2010 9:46 AM MST up reply actions
i wish
one of our guys sucked enough to go 19-10!
With 9 TOs
"One defends when his strength is inadequate, he attacks when it is abundant."
~Sun Tzu
by East Bay Ray on Oct 28, 2010 9:50 AM MST up reply actions
He just didn't want to get
overshadowed by Nash.
Amare saw Nash had 9 turnovers and said “If Steve can do it, I can do it too!”
Take out the 9 turnovers and the rest of those stats are fine. Just like Nash’s first game, except Amare actually scored points when they mattered.
by Jim Coughenour on Oct 28, 2010 1:33 PM MST up reply actions
19 points, 10 rebounds, 2 blocks, 9 Turnovers, 44% shooting.
Gave up 16 rebounds to Reggie Evans after talking trash in the media.
Terrible line for Amare, terrible.
by hcblankscreen on Oct 28, 2010 9:51 AM MST up reply actions
David Lee had a better game than that
17 pts, 15 rebs, 6 assts on 55% shooting, only 3 TOs, and all against a better opponent (Rockets instead of Raptors). Where is the squawking that we should’ve gotten Lee? And how is it a given that the Knicks upgraded by exchanging Lee for Stoudemire in their lineup?
"One defends when his strength is inadequate, he attacks when it is abundant."
~Sun Tzu
by East Bay Ray on Oct 28, 2010 10:40 AM MST up reply actions
sure he may have had a good game
but he’ll have plenty of bad games.
the truth pure and simple is Amare Stoudemire will never improve. What you see is what you got, for the next 5+ years. If you’re OK with that, then you got yourself a treasure, if you’re hoping he becomes interested in D and rebounding when the going gets tough, you’re out of luck.
And by the way, I wasn’t hating, just speaking the truth as I see it. Called opinions. Maybe you should stop hating on alleged haters.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Oct 28, 2010 12:47 PM MST up reply actions
Not that this means anything
But Evans didn’t score a point to go with his 16 boards.
Amare played a little bit of 5 during the game, and obviously didn’t go head to head with Evans for every minute of the game.
Amare didn’t play well at all. Until the last 5 minutes he was on pace for a real stinker of a game since he basically had a no show for the third quarter.
The fact that Amare can have a bad night and go for 19 and 10 speaks volumes to me.
by Jim Coughenour on Oct 28, 2010 1:29 PM MST up reply actions
Evans only scored like 2 points
against the Suns to 20 rebounds or so….
not that that means anything, but I thought I’d start my comment with that
;)
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
i think good teams
are nightmare matchups for us haha. seriously which potential west playoff team can we beat in a 7 game series? i would say utah MAYBE, but thats all.
And you're making this judgment after one game?
Please tell us what you thought of last year’s Suns after one game.
"One defends when his strength is inadequate, he attacks when it is abundant."
~Sun Tzu
by East Bay Ray on Oct 28, 2010 9:36 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
i thought they were going to be horrible
but i never thought lopez was going to be a contributor
and no one
could have seen frye, dudley, and goran coming on like they did, it was a nice surprise.
Ummm - Wil did. And I think Seth did, too - maybe to a lesser extent.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
Lopez didn't play at all as they won 2 playoff rounds.
If you thought they were going to be horrible and were proven wrong, perhaps the lesson to take is that none of us know for sure what’s going to happen, so maybe a little humility in our predictions is called for.
"One defends when his strength is inadequate, he attacks when it is abundant."
~Sun Tzu
by East Bay Ray on Oct 28, 2010 9:49 AM MST up reply actions
but dont u agree?
that the suns wouldnt have had their positioning in the playoffs without Lopez? and these suns aren’t like last years, their is no dominant offensive force inside
I agree that every season has surprises
Which goes to my broader point. It’s foolish to make certain pronouncements after one game. Let’s see what happens.
And, for the record, the Suns seized the #3 playoff spot at the very end of last season. They played the last 10 games with Lopez and went 8-2, beating the Spurs, Jazz and Nuggets in that stretch.
"One defends when his strength is inadequate, he attacks when it is abundant."
~Sun Tzu
by East Bay Ray on Oct 28, 2010 10:13 AM MST up reply actions
Oops. Should be "played the last 10 games withOUT Lopez"
"One defends when his strength is inadequate, he attacks when it is abundant."
~Sun Tzu
by East Bay Ray on Oct 28, 2010 10:16 AM MST up reply actions
Just to be argumentative, yet accurate
when Lopez went down the Suns were a 6 seed. In fact, they didn’t jump to the 3 seed till the last 2 games, with Collins at C
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Oct 28, 2010 11:00 AM MST up reply actions
umm they were hovering around .500
before lopez was inserted as the starting C, THAT was the turning point in the season
remember though, we started 17-4 with a gimpy Amare
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Oct 28, 2010 6:23 PM MST up reply actions
They were who I thought they were
Because I can’t help but dwell in my past triumphs (both of them).
I actually picked the Suns to win 54 games – dead nuts!
But missed on the 3rd seed – I picked fourth…
And since we all like proof, feel free to check out the comment on this BTSOS link to verify.
http://www.ktar.com/category/suns-articles/20091020/BSotS:-Season-preview-~-wrap-up/
Thank you. Thank you.
by Jim Coughenour on Oct 28, 2010 1:52 PM MST up reply actions
Ray, you're right about one game not meaning Jack
Neither would dropping the next two.
But I’ve got two problems here:
1) The team looked all right most of the way but couldn’t close the deal. It seemed like a lot of individual play throughout.
2) I’m sick and tired of long-term planning. That’s always been the excuse for putting a weak team on the floor any given year. Exhibit A: we suffered through years of suckiness to clear cap for Scottie Pippen and got derailed by the lockout, so we wound up with Backcourt 2000. Yay!
Bottom line, we had an elite team last season. We clearly don’t now.
I’m hoping they improve.
PS: I’d like to say a solid “shut up” to everybody criticizing Nash for trying to take over the final minutes of the Blazer game. He’s our best player – that’s what he’s supposed to do. And if he’d spent that time setting for Hedo and Richardson and we lost, the critics would be just as loudly complaining that a superstar has to carry his team at a time like that.
by suns68 on Oct 28, 2010 9:43 AM MST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
I bet if you make your point one more time we'll all finally come around.
by waxmonkey on Oct 28, 2010 9:55 AM MST up reply actions 2 recs
Was that for me?
If so, thanks for reading.
I’m just saying that at times I feel like we’re the Joe’s Crab Shack of professional basketball.
Free crab tomorrow!
Depends what day.
You keep harping on this Amare’ could’ve closed the deal issue. That is not a given, was never a given, and will never be a given. Amare’ plays very inconsistent from game to game. One game he dominates, another he is invisible. So to say he would have won the game for us in portland is nuts. He might have, he also might have scored 7 points with 2 rebounds 4 to’s and 5 fouls. The problem with Amare’ was that you never knew who would show up. He is gone now, we have a decent team still, and we will proceed to the playoffs again this year.
If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score? - Vince Lombardi
by sunsfever83 on Oct 29, 2010 10:20 AM MST up reply actions
Your points are valid, suns68
But I think we might be forgetting how poor the Suns looked at times last year, and look where they ended up. That team we saw sweep the Spurs wasn’t the team we were seeing for some big portions of last regular season.
They aren’t close to being a finished product now, so everyone just chill for awhile. They have played 1.2% of their regular season games so far.
"One defends when his strength is inadequate, he attacks when it is abundant."
~Sun Tzu
by East Bay Ray on Oct 28, 2010 10:26 AM MST up reply actions
I'm right with you EBR
Things might come around and even if they don’t, I’ll still be rooting for the guys.
I rooted for William Bedford and Mike Bratz, and this can’t be any worse.
lol
and Armon Gilliam, Stephon Marbury and Anfernee Hardaway and Richard Dumas, and Robert Horry… no scratch that. I never rooted for Horry even when he and Cassell were acquired for Barkley. but those other guys, yes!
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Oct 28, 2010 12:04 PM MST up reply actions
CQ on Horry
I never liked him either.
Marbury gets a free pass from me because even though he’s a total screwup, he did save me money by making a cheap shoe that my twin boys would actually wear. :)
reggie evans has been grabbing a ton of rebounds all preseason though.
by billyjohnson on Oct 28, 2010 10:26 AM MST up reply actions
i'd rather have blake griffin
that dude, is a monster
by twitte07 on Oct 28, 2010 10:05 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
yup
watched him last night. the game seems so easy to him. talk about a relaxed, talented, letthegamecometome kind of player….the clips looked pretty dang good.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Oct 28, 2010 12:49 PM MST up reply actions
Could they really break the Clipper curse and be competitive this year?
They certainly have the talent.
Extend Jared Dudley!
"...break the Clipper curse...?"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!…
God cursed the Clippers and it probably ain’t gonna be reversed……i don’t know what they they…for all we know they may have burined Loy Vaught underneath the Visitors locker room…
May God have mercy on their pitiful souls…
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....!
I was blown away. I had never seen him before that and watched slack jawed through most of the game
Dan Marino (13) and Steve Nash (13) will go down in history as being the greatest passers to never win the last game of the season.
If we were going to pay this much for a bunch of OK role players I have no idea why Sarver wouldn't just pay Amare and get a couple role players on the cheap...
The Amare contract wouldn’t have been ideal but atleast we wouldnt have all this money tied to a bunch of redundant role players…
This offseason was a bunch of pure garbage by the Suns FO and proves that the leadership at the top of this team will keep them from anything but middling success for a long time… Losing Amare could have been an opportunity to shore up some of our deficiencies from last season by getting a bruiser at the 4, improving the team defense and rebounding, etc. Hell, even saying, “Hey are window is closed. Let’s rebuild with our young pieces plus a couple high draft picks we get for Nash and Stat” would have atleast shown some sense of direction.
But now for the forseeable future we are going to be stuck in 30-45 win purgatory because Sarver just wants to field a competative enough of a team to bring in some dollars…
It's not the money to Sarver
I agree that he’d prefer to have a competitive product, but I really don’t think it’s a pocket-lining agenda.
He’s said mroe than once, and I believe him, that he doesn’t want to have 1-3 of suckitude while rebuilding.
You can say that’s short-sighted but I don’t think there is a pecuniary purpose.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
I dont know what it is to him then...
if it wasnt the money then fork out money to pay Amare even knowing the risk… overpay Channing Frye to keep him on board… resign Lou… use the MLE to sign that one last role player we need and make another run at it…
he clearly has no well defined plan…
by Superelkman on Oct 28, 2010 10:29 AM MST up reply actions
I think
he was worried about the Years of Suck in year 4 and year 5 of Amare’s contract
Mmmmm ... Guinness
i guess i am only disapointed that this team has no direction...
keeping amare or not, i would atleast like to know where we are going and that it is in the right direction…
now we have 5 years of mediocrity at best(assuming no moves are made) vs. 3 really good years and potentially 2 bad ones…
by Superelkman on Oct 28, 2010 12:33 PM MST up reply actions
No direction that you know of.
We lost 3 players. 2 of those are injured already. Where would we be if we had Amar’e, but had lost Lou and LB already? And what is Sarver supposed to say – we’re really going to go after Horford? Or Brook Lopez? That would be well received.
We were 26-21 at one point last year. If we can be around there in late Jan, I think we’ll be fine. I don’t think this team will get worse over the season, and we can make some moves. So I think patience is what is called for.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
Yeah, but We should know all we need to know by Saturday.
Then, We’re DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
If we go 0-3, Can we have a BSOTS hari-kari...?
Might not be beneficial for the long term health of the website, but it might be a consideration….
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....!
This is why I am glad Scott is not in charge of discipl;inary actions..
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....!
LOL.
Well given our team this year, after watching the portland game I did like a lot of what I saw but I predicted starting the season 0-4. So we are now 1-1, they have already exceeded my prediction. So the only way to go now is up. Go Suns!!!!
If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score? - Vince Lombardi
by sunsfever83 on Oct 29, 2010 10:25 AM MST up reply actions
Wanderin aimlessly throuh the halls of the NBA season...
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....!
REC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ONE THOUSAND TIMES REC’D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Staff writer: Bright Side of the Sun Twitter: @dpwatson
Well, I would rec it a thousand times if it’d let me anyway.
Staff writer: Bright Side of the Sun Twitter: @dpwatson
I get it now
Amare is the greatest and the Suns suck without him
thanks
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Now, the next 2 to 3 years are going to be filled with enjoyable basketball moments without a plausible chance.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Oct 28, 2010 11:38 AM MST up reply actions
good basketball w/o a ring
does not mean the team “sucks”
difference being that Amare gave hope —
“hope” is the thing that keeps fans fanatical
I’m not saying the Suns would’ve won it all with Amare, I’m saying that keeping Amare would’ve kept the hope alive.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
ah okay
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Oct 28, 2010 12:01 PM MST up reply actions
8 years of hope,
and still no ring came from Amare’. The man is about money, not winning. As explosive as he is and as much fun as he is to watch, Amare’ will never be a champion. We had hope for years with Amare’, and when he was needed the most he folded. So farewell Amare’, was a fun run, enjoy NY, and claim your seat next to James in the ‘I am greedy and don’t care about winning section’.
If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score? - Vince Lombardi
by sunsfever83 on Oct 29, 2010 10:28 AM MST up reply actions
James took less
money so he could win.
Twitter: @MikeLisboa
by Mike Lisboa on Oct 29, 2010 10:38 AM MST up reply actions
He took less money,
so he could move to Miami and chump up another team. lol. I know he took less, but the fact is James is all about the money. He wants to be the highest marketed player in the league. That has nothing to do with winning. He liked Miami and Wade, and took the option that put him there. All I am saying is that Amare’ is about the money, just like James. And James will make more money in Miami than he would have in Cleveland. So he took less salary to make more in marketing.
If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score? - Vince Lombardi
by sunsfever83 on Oct 29, 2010 10:56 AM MST up reply actions
It's not a fact. It's your opinion.
There is a difference.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
I'm an optimist
I think we’ll get over the top if we just sign Earl Barron and Lasme Lamaze, or whatever his name is.
One quick statement and then off to work.
He’s gone, by his choice, so let him go! If it was about championships he would’ve stayed! It was about money and ego!! How many MILLIONS do you need?!? Now off to my underpaid, overworked, just to get by blue collar job. Have a nice day!! SUNS 4 LIFE!!
by Stanley B on Oct 28, 2010 11:42 AM MST reply actions 2 recs
Rephrase this for a second
“How many thousands do you need?”
He went with the company willing to pay him more, just like anyone on any job market would. Just because the scale is higher doesn’t make him any greedier than I was the last time I negotiated a salary.
Twitter: @MikeLisboa
by Mike Lisboa on Oct 28, 2010 11:46 AM MST up reply actions
they pay you?
and you were actually able to negotiate?
If you’re not lying, I’d like to read your book.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
Yes on both counts.
You think I’d be writing this from a hotel room in Cincinnati for free?
Twitter: @MikeLisboa
by Mike Lisboa on Oct 28, 2010 12:21 PM MST up reply actions
It's in Ohio...
Anyways, there are still jobs out there that people can negotiate their salries…I know I just did for my new job…Point being that Amare wanted more than the Suns wanted to give him…He chose the better offer, so let’s move on…we gotta a team of our own to think about…Amare is on the Knicks not Suns anymore…As far as I am concerned, he is now the enemy…
GO Suns…!
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....!
Actually both of these points has been refuted many times on this board...
1. People turn down more money every day for better quality of life, workplace, projects etc..people who use the highest dollar amount as their deciding criteria are often in for a disappointment.
2. The less you make, the more of a percentage basic living expenses take up. So out of Stanley B’s blue collar thousands, maybe 80% are going towards just getting by. Out of Amare’s millions, much, much less.
SO no, these are not coherent arguments as to why Amare wasn’t acting out of greed. If you want to make that case, it may be that he hated it here, that he secretly hated nash, that he missed Dantoni, that wanted the limelight etc, etc…but absent some other reason, it sure looks like a cash grab…
by Fritzy on Oct 28, 2010 12:37 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
That's not a refutation of any sort.
Of course, people turn down more money for various reasons. They also accept more for a greater professional challenge, like putting a perennial also-ran on their back and turning that franchise around.
Or maybe they luck into a situation in which they get more money AND get to work with a coach they enjoyed the greatest success of their career under. AND they go to the largest sports and media market in the world.
By slapping the “Greed” label on it, it’s just sooooo easy to villainize someone who made a decision unpopular with this fanbase, not unlike slapping the “Coward” label on LeBron for making, ironically, the opposite decision (less money, better chance to win, thx, watdogg).
Twitter: @MikeLisboa
by Mike Lisboa on Oct 28, 2010 1:26 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
well, let's back up...
here’s your first point:
He went with the company willing to pay him more, just like anyone on any job market would
which I refute, but then strangely, in your reply, you actually agree with me
Of course, people turn down more money for various reasons
then, in your second point, you state:
Just because the scale is higher doesn’t make him any greedier than I was the last time I negotiated a salary.
which equates millions of dollars with thousands, which as I pointed out doesn’t hold up due to cost of living
then I clearly state that it may in fact be that he’s got some other reason besides money:
it may be that he hated it here, that he secretly hated nash, that he missed Dantoni, that wanted the limelight etc, etc
which you thoroughly debunk by agreeing with me here:
… like putting a perennial also-ran on their back and turning that franchise around….
Or maybe they luck into a situation in which they get more money AND get to work with a coach they enjoyed the greatest success of their career under. AND they go to the largest sports and media market in the world.
so I guess my question is, Mike( may I call you Mike), are you drunk right now?
Oh, Fritzy...
And at no point did I say I was “de-bunking” you, I merely pointed out that you had in no way, shape or form refuted my comment. Which you haven’t.
which equates millions of dollars with thousands, which as I pointed out doesn’t hold up due to cost of living
It’s not about cost of living (which incidentally is probably pretty high when you’ve been earning as much as he has for your entire adult life). It’s about the market and what an employee is able to charge for his services. To someone making 15k a year, I’m sure 50k looks likes like millions. Cost of living is a logical fallacy. To ask “How many millions does one need?” is to entirely miss the point that if Company A is willing to guarantee more money for the same services rendered than Company B, then the amounts don’t matter. You’re simply getting lost in the scale of it all.
Conceding that not everyone goes for the money is hardly conceding the point that just as often, if not more often, people go where their talents bring them the most income. To say that everyone turns down more money for a “better” circumstance is just as fallacious as saying that everyone always takes the bigger moneybag. Or that people who go for the money are in for disappointment.
Twitter: @MikeLisboa
well I guess I can try this one more time, then I'm going to start drinking
It’s not about cost of living
it is when you ask Stanley how many thousands he needs. He needs x amount to survive and the rest is gravy. Amare has a bigger x, but also more gravy. How much gravy anyone needs is up to them, but after a point people will tend to look at them as being greedy, fairly or not. If your argument is that there’s no such thing as greed, then fine I suppose, but I’m not really interested in sophistry.
if Company A is willing to guarantee more money for the same services rendered than Company B, then the amounts don’t matter
And both Amare and Stanley are free to accept or decline those offers. But if Stanley turns down a 45k offer for a 50k one, I doubt anyone would give him a hard time for it ( Sorry Stanley for selling you short with these amounts). If Amare turns down 85 mil ( or whatever he was offered ) for 100 mil, with no other factors, people are going to call him greedy. I don’t understand why that’s such a stretch.
Conceding that not everyone goes for the money is hardly conceding the point that just as often, if not more often, people go where their talents bring them the most income
If that’s what you had said originally, I’d have agreed. But it’s not…oh if only there was a way to quote what you said..oh wait there is:
He went with the company willing to pay him more, just like anyone on any job market would
Do you see how these words mean different things? The reason this is important is because we’ve heard this argument before and it boils down to " Can you blame him? You’d have done the same! " It’s simply my position that no, not everyone would have. Not even every basketball player would have. Dirk turned down max money to stay with the mavs. Steve took a pay cut to help phx. Compared to them Amare doesn’t look great, and I dont really understand why that’s so hard for you to acknowledge. In that sense, you’re the opposite of the people who are so quick to say ‘greedy!!’
But as other posters are already concluding, that ship has sailed…I wish amare well, but I wish our guys er.. weller.
To the game thread!
It's still not necessarily greed.
Greed implies excessive desire which you haven’t established. It was guaranteed money versus non-guaranteed money. Bird in hand vs. two in the bush.
And again, we’re not seeing eye to eye on the whole scale thing. Regardless of how much “gravy” is involved, it’s still a salary and they’re still competing offers. He took the better of the two.
Not greedy, just financially savvy.
Agree to disagree? If not, I’ve never actually seen how far over to the right these replies can indent and that might be kind of fun.
Twitter: @MikeLisboa
haha agreed
I realized as well our argument was mostly predicated on one’s definition of greed, which is largely subjective.
For me, it just seemed like money was his primary concern. It’s possible I missed a presser where he talked about other factors..in fact I kind of wish that’s it was because in spite of his faults I like the guy.
And for what it’s worth I also wish more people would stick up for the players and give them the benefit of the doubt. Fans are too quick to assume the worst most of the time, so it’s a nice change…
mmmm…indentation….
Sorry for these late replies, I was covered with grease breathing Diesel fumes while my workplace was recording me and my co-workers.
Perennial also-ran…You mean the New York Knicks…haven’t they won a CHAMPIONSHIP already…. which the Phoenix Suns have not. Only franchise to be in both triple overtime championship games ever played in the NBA though.
Dear Mr. Mike Lisboa
In response to your query, I would reply that an industry standard degree of compensation would be adequate to accomplish my goals. To make enough so that I could actually afford to make a reasonable attempt at buying a house on a modest lot in a decent neighborhood would suffice. And yes if I was offered a job doing comparable work at say…5 dollars an hour more, I would take it. But I didn’t say that I wanted to win a championship with my employer, which Amar’e did. He said it wasn’t about the money, but in the end it was. Point in case, the main difference between what the Suns offered him and what he got was guaranteed money. I don’t begrudge him or anyone else that right to make such a decision, just be honest about it. I for one would have loved for him to stay, but if he wanted to go, then good-bye and good luck (just not against the Suns)! By the way if you were asking me if I would be willing to come be a Diesel Mechanic for you for $25 Hr or more, I say that I’m open to talking about it. Bye the way, I notice that you used Twitter to “rephrase” my question, in retrospect that seems an appropriate venue for you (you draw the conclusion)!!!!
I love you, Stanley
In a “you say great things” kind of way.
Dan Marino (13) and Steve Nash (13) will go down in history as being the greatest passers to never win the last game of the season.
Yet I’m sure you (or if not you a lot of America) hate LeBron for taking less money and giving himself the best chance to win a championship.
Staff writer: Bright Side of the Sun Twitter: @dpwatson
Nah, I hate him for humiliating Cleveland in the process and I hate Wade for giving his own hometown hope that he would sign with them when the whole time he was planning to go to Miami.
Don't trade Dudley!
I don't hate Lebron...
I just think he showed how much HEART he has and took the easy way out by quitting on what was his team and fans. I respect him MUCH less than I did before, by the way he is not the best…now or ever!! IMO!
As long as we're talking "if this..." and "woulda/coulda/shoulda that....."
What if Amare reports that his surgically repaired knee is starting to feel sore in a few weeks and they find that his regenerated cartilage has degenerated again to the point of him needing another surgery? What say you all then? Would you like Hedo, Frye and Childress playing rather than Amare sitting on the bench in a stylish suit then? Would Sarver become less of a cheap and/or incompetent owner?
This is a completely possible scenario.
"One defends when his strength is inadequate, he attacks when it is abundant."
~Sun Tzu
I suspect they'll stick a plastic meniscus in his knee
And everyone will say he’s through, and he’ll come back and average 26 and 9.
And learn to shoot 40 percent on threes while he’s rehabbing.
and also
losing even more athleticism, he commits himself to learning positional defense and not relying on his talent such that he makes several All-Defensive Teams.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
remember, its bad karma to wish ill on others
and that would really, really be bad to hold his breath for that long
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
You're right Alex.
Take deeeeeep breaths, JSun.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
Yes Forever is a long time...
but it makes it easier to DREAM! Hahaha!
This is a tough call.
If only because A’mare has some pretty spectacular fashion sense. If I could cop new looks from him, then maybe…
Twitter: @MikeLisboa
by Mike Lisboa on Oct 28, 2010 12:22 PM MST up reply actions
The problem with Amare's contract was insurance...
Withe Amare’s history, the team couldn’t get a policy to pay for Amare’s salary, in the likely event he suffers another major injury. Which means Sarver & co would have had to pay him out of their own pockets.
The team options at the tail of the contract were simply to mitigate that eventuality.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Oct 28, 2010 12:06 PM MST reply actions
agreed
And, I’ll go a step further —
having spent enough time with insurers, they know what they’re doing. If you get high rates on life insurance, start eating more oatmeal and less french fries.
I’d say, “My point remains, though, because …” if I had a point. I was mainly getting those bunched panties out.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
You know, it kind of bothers me we always talk about it being Sarver's money
In an economic sense, it’s our money because we’re the ones who buy the tickets and TV subscriptions and overpriced beer and nachos that keep this machine humming.
well, when you buy those nachos the money stops becoming yours...
the point being of course, that whatever injury money they’d have to pay Amare, wouldn’t come from the insurance company.
I don’t know about you, but I sure as hell don’t have $18M in spare change between the sofa cushions.. And neither do Sarver & co.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Oct 28, 2010 12:14 PM MST up reply actions
Somewhat off topic...
But I find it very amusing that we’ve already had more “I miss Amare” posts since Tuesday night than we did all summer.
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
by RMason on Oct 28, 2010 12:32 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
And if we had won Tuesday night
we probably wouldn’t have see one.
To some fans, a team is only as good as it’s last game.
by waxmonkey on Oct 28, 2010 12:35 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly what I was hinting at.
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
I think last year's playoff run left fans with a lot of warm and fuzzies
And an overly romanticized view of how last year’s team was, as if they never struggled. The whole premise of this post is to imply that we dominated Portland last year, when clearly we didn’t, and if only we had Amare back, we’d dominate again.
"One defends when his strength is inadequate, he attacks when it is abundant."
~Sun Tzu
by East Bay Ray on Oct 28, 2010 12:45 PM MST up reply actions
Bonus ball
I watched the Suns struggle Tuesday (I recorded it and stayed up late to watch it after class)
Then I watched Amare struggle Wednesday (I actually only caught the second half)
I plan on following both the Suns and Amare this year (notice I didn’t say the Knicks).
Just like when my parents divorced, I still loved both of them and had them in my life. I can still root for the Suns and Amare even thought they’ve gone their different ways. The difference between this and my parents is that Amare and Nash are still buddies, but my parents not so much.
There would have been at least one Amare post, because I’m still a big time fan of Amare’s game.
by Jim Coughenour on Oct 28, 2010 2:10 PM MST up reply actions
yep
I’ll be following Amare too. I hope he does well, I really do.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Truth is
that it’s only one game. The team looked way better than I expected. I would have liked Amar’e to stay but the bottom line is that we need to use our tools to become a better team. I share the “in Nash we trust” sentiment and I think he feels he screwed up the game with his late turnovers. He posted a video on Facebook after arriving at his Hotel in Utah and said “Now I will go to sleep and dream about my turnovers tonight”. We were right there in game one of the season as visitors!. I’m confident they will play better.
"Basketball doesn't build character. It reveals it"
by PanamaSun on Oct 28, 2010 12:49 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
+10000 PSun
I was very impressed with the energy of the team. They competed for the majority of the game. They went cold and didn’t D up at the end while PTL went crazy.
It happens.
I get that people are passionate about our squad and want to win. I get that losing is disappointing. But going back to the Amare well is ridiculous. It’s like texting your ex-wife sweet nothings after she just got remarried.
GET ON WITH LIFE.
And I’m not disrespecting this post at all, it’s good discussion to an extent. But once we start regressing, nothing is accomplished. Of course it’s still a free country and free blog, so by all means continue….Remember we got Utah tonight, people.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Oct 28, 2010 12:56 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
I know it wasn't JSun's intention to bring back the dead
I know him for quite some time and I feel he just wanted to get it off his chest. Just like many of us.
"Basketball doesn't build character. It reveals it"
rec
It’s like texting your ex-wife sweet nothings after she just got remarried.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Unrec.
That’s poor metaphor. I’d say it’s more like grieving an ex-spouse after he or she has left you. There are stages of grief to move through. And as a fanbase, people are moving through them, just not all at the same place.
And really, what did you expect on the first night of the season without our ex?
Twitter: @MikeLisboa
Unrec that unrec
It’s more like texting to your buddies how you’d like to have one more night of crazy sex with your crazy ex-wife … and it’s much easier to say because you know she’s dead now
Mmmmm ... Guinness
somtimes i wish my ex wife was dead
even though we’re pals.
not gonna lie.
just throwin’ that out there.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Oct 28, 2010 4:44 PM MST up reply actions
Metaphor?
Isn’t it a simile? Simile’s use like or as. I used the word like. Of course I’ve been wrong before.
What did I expect? Honestly I expected a 20 point loss. And I was pleasantly surprised with the way the Suns played for 3.75 quarters of basketball.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Oct 28, 2010 4:43 PM MST up reply actions
Everybody wins!
A simile is a metaphor, but not all metaphors are similes.
We’re both right. Yaaaaaaay!
Twitter: @MikeLisboa
I was 50 50 on keeping amare
That was until i saw what we did with our cap space.
WTF
by dontTradeAaronNelson! on Oct 28, 2010 12:50 PM MST reply actions
There were a lot of really great comments on this post
I could +1 about a third of this page.
Dan Marino (13) and Steve Nash (13) will go down in history as being the greatest passers to never win the last game of the season.
Are we done yet? I want to talk about the Jazz and Lakers games
"One defends when his strength is inadequate, he attacks when it is abundant."
~Sun Tzu
by East Bay Ray on Oct 28, 2010 12:59 PM MST reply actions 3 recs
they don't get Office Space in Panama?
They were actually bludgeoning a printer.
But awesome pic, EBR
check my boy eutz:
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Oct 28, 2010 1:03 PM MST up reply actions
There’s a thread for that on the homepage – there’s no rule you have to agree with, comment on or even read every post on the site…just saying.
Some of us are still mourning the loss of Amare others are happy to see him go and others still are ready to move on. We all grieve in our own way.
Staff writer: Bright Side of the Sun Twitter: @dpwatson
by watdogg10 on Oct 28, 2010 1:42 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
For the record.. I do not miss Amare.. there I said it.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Oct 28, 2010 1:32 PM MST reply actions
for the record...I do miss amare... there i said that
But I’m sick of talking about him and don’t think the suns will inherently suck without him
"I feel younger almost every year. I feel like I'm getting better every year. I feel like the season gets easier for me the last two years." Steve Nash
All of that is a fine argument, with the exception of one thing...
Your argument hinges upon the assumption that this team was on the verge of returning to the finals this season with Amare.
I have to diagree with that completely and that taints the rest of your argument. The Suns, while playing way over their heads in the final half of the season, got great draws in the playoffs [Roy was hobbled, Dallas struggled to beat a lesser SA team and we struggled mightly with Dallas]. Had Roy been healthy, we may not have passed the first round. Has Dallas won, I believe we would not have beat them. Point I am making, is that while this team would be a playoff level team that wins 50-54 games, we would be running on a treadmill.
So, move on from Amare, because I wouldn’t have paid him either. I would have paid Lou though!
Me thinks not
They were 0-7 with Nash/Stoudamire. At some point, that is enough evidence to recommend risking the chance at trying something else.
Last time I say it
Much like Amare liked to say,
“You can’t count out the Suns as long as they’ve got Amare Stoudemire and Steve Nash on the team.”
It’s much, much easier to count them out with Steve Nash and Hedo Turkoglu on the team.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
by JSun on Oct 28, 2010 2:57 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
lol
you’ve got as many “last times” as Cher and Barbra Streisand have farewell tours
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
I can count seven times...
Nash/Stoudemire were zero for seven. I am not saying that I didn’t enjoy them, nor am I sying that I wouldn’t continue to enjoy them. But facts are facts. The Suns had plenty of other talent surrounding those two and never reached the finals. That means they never actually had a chance to win an nba championship. It is also further evidence that they were a piece or two away from contending, despite the belief by suns fans and the suns brass that they were contenders. If you ask the Spurs, Lakers, Magic, Celtics, Cavs, Heat, Pistons and Maverick brass whether the Suns were ever truly contenders, they would all say no [because they all got to the finals in the last 7 years and the Suns did not]. Notice that there are only 3 Western Conference teams on that list, because those were the teams that were truly contenders, and I would claim Dallas got a little lucky on their run. This was also the year that the Suns played without Amare [and JJ because of the bonehead decision to let him go].
Frankly, the 2004-5 season was their best shot and since, they have been trying to recover from some very dubious decision making at the top.
Amare is talented, but like many talented players, he isn’t the transcendant talent that carries you. In fact, I don’t see that kind of talent in the NBA right now. LBJ needed Wade and Bosh. Kobe was mired in losing prior to stealing Gasol and Fisher. Paul Pierce needed KG and Ray. True great players have always needed supporting talent [MJ had Scottie, Duncan had Manu and Parker. Not since Shaq in his prime has there been one individual who can carry a team. Duncan, Shaq, Kobe are all transcendant players you can build around. Possibly James or Wade. But even Dwight Howard is struggling to get there. Amare is just not at that level. He is a notch below, like a Carmelo. A truly talented/gifted guy who is not like any other in the league. But that doesn’t mean you mortgage the franchise for him.
Oh, and what happened to institutional memory?
Doesn’t anyone remember the good, ol’ days when I drank whatever Kool-Aid was being served? (Until I turned bitter on the Big Sucking Chest Wound)
Mmmmm ... Guinness
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bright Side Of The Sun
Related FanShots on Bright Side Of The Sun
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Friend Us On Facebook
SBNation.com Recent Stories
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Behind the Box Score, where a special Oklahoma City Thunder team is moving on
- Russell Westbrook hit an impossible and-one shot to beat the Lakers (VIDEO)
- Days of NBA Lives: Wherein Hamed Haddadi goes to the zoo
- David Stern changed the competition committee to push new rules, report says
- Nazr Mohammed films Oklahoma City Thunder fans welcoming the team back at 5:30 in the morning (VIDEO)
Follow us on Twitter
