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Around SBN: Where Do The Lakers Go From Here?

The truth about Vince Carter

In my time as a VC fan over the years, a lot has been said about one who, at one point, was "the New Jordan". Getting over the cliche, Vince, to me, is unique. His play and personality doesn't resemble anybody I can think of in NBA history. More about that after the jump.

Star-divide

First off, I'm a big VC fan. My personality, approach, my game in real life etc is similar to his keeping the proportions. So obviously, you need to take everything I'm about to write with a grain of salt as I'll try to keep everything objective but you know how fans are.

I haven't had the chance to watch him play in Toronto too much because I was little and there was no way you could watch the NBA in Romania (I'm from Romania) at that time. I wasn't passionate about basketball either. He raised my passion about basketball to such a high level after seeing him play on the internet later on in his last months as a Raptor and then further on as a Net.

I've probably seen ~300 or so games with Vince so I think I know what I'm talking about.

First off, Vince is a special talent. His game is poetic and artistic in nature and it's usually based on instinct. Basically, talent = instinct in general. For him, the game itself is a matter of both instinct AND fundamentals and intelligence. While playing for the Nets, he used both his smarts and instincts. For Orlando, only his smarts, almost never his instincts.

People tried to change his way of playing in Orlando. SVG considered shooting fadeaways and running isolation plays for Vince as being inefficient, so Vince tried to change himself. He stopped shooting many fadeaways and started to shoot straight jumpers. Started deffering more. Didn't cared at all about stats. Etc etc etc. That kind of destroyed him because he wasn't playing by instinct anymore. He wasn't himself at all.

I want to talk about every aspect of Vince's game and how this applies in the present:

Shooting

 

In terms of shooting, Vince's natural tendency is to shoot the fadeaway jumper. I know this is strange, but I'm sure that over his career he shot more fadeaways than regular jumpshots so THIS way of shooting is actually his efficient way of shooting and has a higher chance of going in because he gives the ball a greater arc when he shoots fadeaways and spaces himself from the defender. The only exception is probably the three point shot, in which he's usually better shooting a regular jumpshot.

 

The problem right now is that his leg strength is not what it used to be. That means he needs to compensate with more power from the upperbody to shoot the ball and that messes the shot up. He's also thinking about his shot because he's been told not to fadeaway, and thinking about shooting = missing shots. A shot needs to be instinctual and fluid, without mental pressure and especially without THINKING. Any good shooter knows this.

Hopefully, he'll be let alone to shoot it how he knows it so these things don't happen in Phoenix as they happened in Orlando.

 

Defense

Vince is actually a good on ball defender. When Orlando played games I usually watched Vince in the defense to see what he does. He's moving, he has active hands (has gotten a lot of ball strips, deflections and steals in the last Orlando games), he bodies up and so on. He's not quick, that's the problem. He's a decent man defender and a good team defender. The whole think with Vince is his effort. Which brings me to the next point.

 

Confidence

 

THIS is the biggest and most important thing for VC. Confidence. Vince when playing cocky and arrogant can absolutely score on anybody in the NBA. When he feels like he can dominate and he's supported in that role by the teammates AND ESPECIALLY FANS, his mental strength increases dramatically and he plays by the instinct again.

This also explains the difference between his road and home shooting percentages for this season. At home he kind of feels supported and WANTS to play well. On the road he used to deffer too much to other players. He doesn't believe in himself anymore. When one of the Magic reporters had an interview with him and asked him how he feels this season (at the beginning of training camp) with him being old and so on, Vince interrupted him to say "I know, on my way to retiring" and he wasn't sarcastic. He believe he was on his way into retiring if you looked on his face.

THAT's what needs to be changed and I'm not sure he can change that mentality that he has. He can fake it, but he still has it. He needs help from Nash and Hill and Alvin and the fans and trust, and I think he can turn that around. That's the single most important thing for him, by far.

Strength

 

His strength has diminished constantly over the years since 2008 or so which is only natural since he's getting older. Over 30 you're going to go down and down. Still, he worked this summer with the Magic trainers and got his body fat lower and increased his standing vertical from 28 to 31 inches. Why is that important? Well, for one, it's important because it shows that he is willing to train and responds to training. Secondly, if he works on his strength again in this offseason he can be soooo much better, especially on his leg strength. Thirdly, because a higher standing vertical jump is a good predicment of athleticism (acceleration and quick movement).

 

Usage

 

His usage needs to be high. Needs, as in I wish it's high. That's because he can do so much on the floor. In my years watching him I have never encountered ANY defender that can stop him. Why? Because he's too creative and can score from anywhere on the floor. He's too unpredictable to defend properly. At this point of his career though, he has a tendency to drive to the right on like 80% of his possessions in the pick and roll and is too slow to be "that" unpredictable, but he's still has tricks up his sleeve. He was afraid to use them in Orlando because everybody was looking for a scapegoat to blame any defeat on, so he tried to be conservative so he can avoid that. Meaning, he was playing a low risk, low reward game.

 

Toughness

 

This is Vince's biggest problem. He's not tough. He seems to have lost his passion for the game ever since he went in Orlando. So he doesn't "have heart" because he always seems to think he's going to get injured so he stays away from contact, and he's confortable in that position. When he's hit, he has a tendency to stop being aggressive and settle for long two pointers which are very innefficient (unless you REALLY are hitting them). He whines, he stays on the floor 5 minutes when he's being hit and so on. That's definitely a negative on him and has always been.

In a weird kind of way, he's more tougher on defense where he does occassionally take the charge, but sometimes (now more often than in the past) he commits the silly and-1 foul or shies away from contact. His lack of passion on both ends of the floor contributes to this as well, because he doesn't really care about the game.


He does get pumped up occassionally, playing good defense or attacking the rim but it happens in spurts, usually when he's pissed.

 

Passing&Ego

He might have had an ego in the past with him wanting to take every shot (and in my opinion, for good reason), but that was in his Toronto days. In New Jersey, he said he doesn't want to be "the man", but instead help Kidd and Richard Jefferson. He said the same thing when he was traded to Orlando, that he wants to help Dwight. There's no ego problem. He hasn't been a locker room cancer. He's been a great team mate. Only the media made him a demon in the lockerroom and people that don't know what they're talking about.

 

If anything, players that want to win by any means get upset and Vince's approach and that's when people think there's a "rupture in the lockerroom" with him and his teammates. But Vince is actually competitive, he's just not "physical". That's the culprit. And he has a tendency to get down when he's not supported. He's weak mentally right now and he needs help with his confidence.

Again, not a problem with his ego at all. That's why he's an incredible passer for a SG. He doesn't feel he needs to take every shot and he passes the ball. He genuinely enjoys dishing assists, it's not just for the media or anything like that. The thing is, in the teams he's played for (Toronto and NJ), HE was the main weapon because HE had the best chance of scoring in his team, by far, and for good reason.

In fact, he was TOO deffering to other people in Orlando, and that's what triggered the trade actually. He wasn't aggressive and demanding the ball enough to be a double team threat so Dwight can get more open.

So in Phoenix, his usage rate needs to increase and he needs more plays because he's a scorer and he needs to be treated as such and not waste his talent trying to make him a lockdown defender only for him to exit with foul trouble.

 

How to properly use Vince?

Vince's greatest scoring threats are these:

1) Isolations

2) Post-ups

3) Pick and rolls

He's one of the best isolation players in the league even at this age and lack of quickness, so he needs to be used like that. In the post, he's a monster because he's too big and he's still strong for the majority of SGs in the league. And he has a nice post shot and can even score with hook shots from there, or with spinning layups.

 

In the pick and roll, either the 1/2 pick and roll or the 2/4, 2/5 pick and roll he's great as long as the other player properly rolls to the basket. If not, he can go all the way to the rim or pass it for the corner three.

 

I can answer any other questions in the comments section.

Comment 22 comments  |  14 recs  | 

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Nice post, raptorel.

Good info, and recc’ed.

Fat, dumb, and Obscene Emphatic happy is a lifestyle choice.

by haremoor on Dec 21, 2010 6:12 AM MST reply actions  

Rec'd. Good work here.

"Grant's time machine is hard work. He's just a class player."
~Steve Nash

by East Bay Ray on Dec 21, 2010 9:48 AM MST reply actions  

Got to admit

When I saw “truth about Vince Carter” and your Raptor-based handle I figured this would have been a hate-filled diatribe…and I wish it had been.

RIP Seasons of Discontent

by Scott Howard on Dec 21, 2010 9:50 AM MST reply actions  

Great post raptorel. Rec'd

I was liking the trade before. I even had some hopes for Vince, but now you’ve got me pumped. If I didn’t read the news about his need for knee surgery first, I would’ve been happy to see him play on Thursday. Tough noodles.

"Yes the game threads have more mood swings than a coked up pregnant woman but you have to admit, it’s always a fun ride." - NashMV3

by NashMV3 on Dec 21, 2010 11:10 AM MST reply actions  

Very nice post!

But I am afraid Carter will get much of the same numbers per minute that Hedo had here. Carter will get more minutes though. The problem with these guys is that they need the ball in their hands to be effective, and Nash does most of the ball handling for the Suns. But even though Hedo didn’t fit here, his numbers weren’t too bad on a per minute basis, making me kinda exited to see VC in action. I really think Carter deserves another chance after getting much of the blame for Magic’s bad performance in the playoffs last year.

by Lompe on Dec 21, 2010 11:21 AM MST reply actions  

Good post, thanks.

I was also expecting a negative diatribe. While I’m still not sold, I’ve never doubted the guy’s talent. It’s interesting to hear a pretty balanced description of the pros and cons. I hope VC realizes that he has a very rare opportunity here. He can reinvent himself while playing with the best PG in the world. He’ll also get trained and treated by incredible people. He doesn’t have to lead the team or be the go-to scoring option. All he has to do is work hard, check his ego, blend in, run his butt off (i.e. follow Grant’s example) and keep out of Steve’s way. If he’s smart he’ll let Steve find a way to make it easy for the “good” VC to perform. It’ll be fun to watch, but I’m very much a skeptic.

by Van2010 on Dec 21, 2010 2:41 PM MST reply actions  

Good post CARTEREL

Will you still post here after next year? when Carter was signed by another team??

haha just kidding

Never fear. Grant Hill is Here.

by sun_equalizer on Dec 21, 2010 4:19 PM MST reply actions  

Very informative post!

Thanks for sharing your insight…It is very much appreciated!

Rec’d fo’ shizzle!

by 7footer on Dec 21, 2010 6:18 PM MST reply actions  

I think this sums up Vince.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO1eAri_JjA

It’s pretty moving. He seems like a good guy.

"Yes the game threads have more mood swings than a coked up pregnant woman but you have to admit, it’s always a fun ride." - NashMV3

by NashMV3 on Dec 21, 2010 8:28 PM MST reply actions  

great post !

my initial reaction to the trade was not so great mainly because we lost J-rich, but after couple days of knowing new trios, I’m begining to feel the trade has real potential.

I know everybody likes Gortat, but after reviewing their interviews and recent plays, I am excited to see how VC will fit in as a Suns member.

He looks like a team-guy, plays like one, and passes the ball well and smarter than I thought he is. Reviewing the game against Pistons on 12/3 when they lost 4 starters to stomach virus, Orlando beat them efficiently mainly because of VC’s multi-dimensional talent. He had 25pts, 9assists, 4rbs, 3stls.

We loved J-rich in many ways but you cannot deny the fact that VC has been the superstar, and although he doesn’t show up often on highlight reels anymore, he still has a lots of tools left in him.

J-rich was probably better spotting up, rebounding, defense, running, moving without the ball, and was enthusiastic about the game, but VC is better in isolations, post-ups, pick & rolls, passing and most importantly drawing double teams. We didn’t have the player who can create their own shot except Nash, who would rather feed others until the last second.

VC is still one of the most difficult player to guard come clutch time, his fade-away shots are killers.

I just want to believe that Nash, Hill, and Gentry will come up with the situation to fully utilize the talent of Vince Carter and thus his spirit being rejuvenated.

by enjoynash on Dec 22, 2010 2:25 AM MST reply actions  

Carter's most successful years (wins + stats together)

were with Jason Kidd at PG. He will be fine with Nash.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 22, 2010 6:15 AM MST reply actions  

But whether or not Nash is fine with Carter is a different story.

But I’m optimistic, so I see it working out really well.

"Yes the game threads have more mood swings than a coked up pregnant woman but you have to admit, it’s always a fun ride." - NashMV3

by NashMV3 on Dec 22, 2010 6:51 AM MST up reply actions  

Nash should be fine

and although VC won’t (can’t?) run, I still believe our creative offensive system with more freedom should fit in better for VC. Hoping to see him rejuvenated !

If that is the case, this trade has a real potential. I like the fact that any of the trios hasn’t won a championship yet and can look for one together. It was a unique trade among better teams in the NBA, but it can be a real good one for the Suns( hope it is !).

by enjoynash on Dec 22, 2010 8:46 AM MST up reply actions  

Carter will do well with Nash

He’s Nash, for Godssake!!

And as far as the Kidd/Nash comparisons, I see them as entirely valid. Remember, Nash spent a few years on the sidelines learning from Kidd before he went to Dallas and became a star.

Trade Warrick!!!

by jc79 on Dec 22, 2010 2:11 PM MST up reply actions  

well, one year anyway, right?
Nash spent a few years on the sidelines learning from Kidd before he went to Dallas

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 23, 2010 5:58 AM MST up reply actions  

Was it just one?

Ah well, it’s something. The guy before Kidd wasn’t half bad either.

Trade Warrick!!!

by jc79 on Dec 24, 2010 9:35 PM MST up reply actions  

Thanks for the info.

Although, I don’t have any thing more to say about Vince Carter until he slaps on the jersey and plays a few games.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 22, 2010 2:22 PM MST reply actions  

My only concern...

is we said much of this about Hedo – that wish Nash, he’ll shine and work well in the system.

Look how that worked out.

I will say, though, I do have more hope for VC. As others have said, his best years were with Kidd, and I’d take Nash any day over Kidd.

by Dantre on Dec 22, 2010 2:32 PM MST reply actions  

Check out my post above, titled

The Grant comparison is a very good one that I hadn’t considered yet.

I may have an idea of what part of the problem was.

Anthony Tolliver says "Get that weak stuff outta here!"

Good luck in Orlando J-Rich.

Get your head right Aaron. We need you.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 22, 2010 4:46 PM MST up reply actions  

this
his best years were with Kidd

that is enough for me to think VC will survive. That and the fact that, if he doesn’t gel we’re only talking the rest of this season rather than 2-3 more after this.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 23, 2010 5:59 AM MST up reply actions  

The video

The video of Carter speech was moving. That guy is a stand-up dude. It is hard to cry when your peers are the most cocky people in the world. He set his ego aside. This bodes well for how well he fits into the existing chemistry…I like him and hope he is not traded before he can play with us.

We still need a back up point guard

by Wolf Make-Shift on Dec 22, 2010 9:11 PM MST reply actions  

Nicely done Raptorel

My ties go further back to Vince’s rookie year with the Raps – first BB game I ever saw. Over the years my son and I saw numerous games in Toronto when Vince was here. When traded to NJ we went with him then to Orlando and now to the Suns; he is a special talent, entertaining and a role model.

With Vince the glass is always seen as half-full; he can never ever satisfy some folks. If you though that the Cleveland fans have a hate on for LJ wait until you hear the Toronto fans with Vince.

If there was an upside to the posting its a slight change from responses of “can’t stand the guy” to maybe we should wait and see what he does first.

I agree that Vince is not a locker room cancer. He will do what he can and none of us really know yet what the coaches want. I know that I was very happy with the trade to Orlando – finally getting a chance to play with a stacked team. I also was very happy that he is out of there; not a good fit for what Orlando wanted and what Vince could deliver.

I wish I knew how this will work out for the Suns and for Vince; but that’s why they play the games. I will be watching and cheering from Toronto

by consultant99 on Dec 23, 2010 2:20 PM MST reply actions  

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