Daily Poll: Who is the Phoenix Suns 6th Man?
Yesterday on the radio, Gambo and Ash from 620 Sports posed this question: Who is the Suns' 6th Man?
In other words, who is the Most Valuable Bench Player for the Suns. The MVBP.
In the past the answer was easy, Barbosa was the man. But this year, the Suns bench is deep and multi-faceted.
The easy answer is that there's isn't one MVBP, but that's no fun.
Coach Gentry on the radio said it was Frye. Dan Majerle gave Dragic the slight edge over Dudley.
I am going with Goran as well for the same reason Thunder Dan gave - giving Nash the ability to rest is huge. Dudley is a close second, though, with his ability to defend two positions and hit the open three.
Goran Dragic is bringing solid play backing up Nash. We no longer see huge drop offs when Nash sits and, as a result, he's able to rest longer. Steve's minutes per game haven't been this low since the 02/03 season, which is extremely important. The team has confidence in Dragic to sustain and even expand leads while Nash rests.
Goran's numbers don't jump off the page, but his impact has changed the team.
Channing Frye coming off the bench provides a big lift on the offensive end. When he's hot he can come in and stretch the floor with his range. When he's not hot, he's still enough of a threat to create space for Amare in the lane. The ability for the Suns to go with completely differently looks in Lopez and Frye has created all kinds of problems for teams.
Frye's defense has been a bit unfairly maligned as well. He's not big enough to truly battle the bigger centers but he uses his length well and plays hard and smart. Most importantly, since moving from the starting line up to the bench, Frye is playing 10 fewer minutes but only scoring 2 fewer points per game: 10.3 ppg / 21.5 mpg off the bench vs. 12.2 ppg / 31 mpg as a starter. He's shooting 45% from three in his new role, which is a 1.8% improvement.
Jared Dudley is the ultimate glue-guy. He brings hustle, intensity and smart play to the floor. The Suns typically will bring him off the bench first, which allows Grant to sub in with Goran and provide his leadership to the second unit. Rarely do you see a drop off in team performance with Dudley comes in.
JD hits open threes at a high rate (44%) but doesn't force his offense when he's on the floor with the starters. He's a guy that always does the little things that don't show up in the box score. Defense. Extra possessions. Energy and he's a great teammate that guys love playing with.
Jared leads the bench with 24.5 minutes per game off the bench because he's versatile enough to play multiple positions. We see him playing the 2 against bigger shooting guards, his natural small forward position or even the 4 when the Suns go small. He even got minutes as the back-up PG when the Suns were thin due to injuries.
Leandro Barbosa has had an off year. He came into the season with his wrist bothering him and never was able to really get on track, leading to his surgery in late January. His shooting numbers are down about 5% this season and well below his career average, but we've yet to see a fully healthy LB. Suns and NBA fans know what his guy can bring, though. LB can and likely will go off for 20+ points off the bench and provides a different look and change in pace to the Suns.
Louis Amundson is the team's hard nose frontcourt guy. He's tough and smart and plays above his size. There's a reason the fans scream "Loooouuu!!!" when he comes in the game and it's not because of his free throw shooting.
Lou's always been an above average rebounder and shot blocker, but his field goal percentage is at a career high 54.2%. He's not only getting garbage points, he's now starting to score as the roll man on pick and rolls.
You can make the case that the Dragic, Barbosa, Dudley, Amundson, Frye bench unit is the best bench in the West. The Suns have done a great job developing all these guys and the rotations take advantage their unique skill sets.
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Comments
I'm going with Goran
As you mentioned, there used to be a huge drop-off when Steve went to the bench, and that’s just not the case anymore. I also like that Dragic in the last 10 games or so seems to be increasing his assists and lowering his turnovers, so he’s starting to play a little more like a point guard.
What did he play like before—a shooting guard?
by 8472species on Mar 19, 2010 11:10 AM MDT up reply actions
not sure I agree with that
I think the team is feeling more confident in him now, and just taking the shot more often when he passes to them. Not sure he’s really changed his game at all.
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Too late to change the stupid twitter name. Did it as a joke to my teenager, but now I'm hooked on the news-feed aspect of twitter.
by Alex Laugan on Mar 19, 2010 11:39 AM MDT up reply actions
It's just really refeshing how deep the team is
We’ve got legit talent that’s at least 10 deep. I actually only really consider Taylor Griffin the “human victory cigar” or “human white flag” that used to make up the 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 spots on a D’Antoni bench. Clark could easily be a productive player if we needed him to be, and Jarron Collins has shown he can be helpful if needed.
Almost changed my vote to JD
after looking at his minutes and thinking about his ability to defend multiple positions and play with any combination of lineups…tough call
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
thats where I put my vote - JD all the way
Plus, he has made the Suns a lot more visible in the community with the twitter posts and radio interviews and giveaways. I think the rest of the team is taking that lead, and being more open to interaction with the public.
Twitter: @dahking
Too late to change the stupid twitter name. Did it as a joke to my teenager, but now I'm hooked on the news-feed aspect of twitter.
by Alex Laugan on Mar 19, 2010 11:41 AM MDT up reply actions
I voted JD.
Plus, he’s usually always the 6th player to enter the game, largely due to wanting to watch Grant’s minutes. Not that that means anything, really.
Bright Side of the Sun, for all things Phoenix Suns. Twitter: @iamtrevorpaxton
by iamtrevorpaxton on Mar 19, 2010 3:47 PM MDT up reply actions
Wow.. that took me a while to answer
I ended up going with Goran.. but the rest arent all that far behind. I do think though, that when Leandro is 100% and playing up to his potential, he’s going to be right up there if not our true 6th man.
Frye??
I don’t feel right about disagreeing with the coach, because he does know more than I do, but I can’t believe he considers Frye more valuable than either Dudley or Dragic. I don’t see it.
The easy answer is the true answer
I guess it’s on the matchups. There are games where we need to spread the floor and Frye makes it like no one else on this team. There are others where hustle is what we really need so JYD and Sweet Lou play like all-stars. Or what we are really needing is some quickness and D from a guard and Dragic steps in. Won’t talk about Leandro, as he’s being injured, but he’s also a great player off the bench.
I agree w/ that
there really is no “one” guy which is great….but that’s not as much fun :)
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Mar 19, 2010 12:15 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't know...
I know fan support at the arena is important (even if I never hear about US Airways Center fans today making so much damn noise that the teams have to communicate with hand signals, as the Madhouse on McDowell crowd did in 1992), but are they really so important as to be ranked above the entire bench?
by 8472species on Mar 19, 2010 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions
I just wouldn’t presume I’m as important as any of the players.
by 8472species on Mar 19, 2010 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions
haha...
I was just referencing the Suns 6th man program, which listed you as the 6th man if you buy season tix!
PSN ID- presbot
You’re kidding me? Gentry says that Fyre is the most valuable player off the bench? I remember having a conversation with someone on this board about Frye getting too many minutes sometimes, when they should be going to Lopez.. I was joking that Gentry has a “man crush” on Channing Fyre. Wow, this only goes to support that ridiculous theory.
Anyway, I truly believe we have a great bench(top 5 in the league). Our bench rivals that of Orlando, Cleveland, and Dallas.
We could go 11 guys deep if we wanted too. The other two guys, Griffen and Clark just aren’t ready for the NBA right now.
Jared Dudley was my pick for the 6th man, but you can’t go wrong with Dragic either. In fact, Fyre for his 11ppg and 5rpg a long with Dudley and Dragic should all get 6th man of the year considerations.
you're overreacting
You cannot possibly deny that Frye brings a lot to the table especially now that he’s not in the starting line-up. I think it’s a perfect lineup with Lopez as a starter to give provide some much needed toughness to a team that’s not known for being tough and playing good defense.
But now that Frye is coming off the bench, he gives the Suns a great offensive punch that was much needed especially while LB was out. Dudley is good but he won’t create for himself much and he’s been consistent with his scoring (around 8ppg) but he’s there more for hustle and defense and a few 3s. Lou provides amazing energy but 5ppg isn’t much. Dragic has progressed amazingly this season but his scoring is on and off by game.
Frye is able to stretch the floor and open up lanes for others. He is also able to go down low one in a while and finish. he may not provide the best defense but if he’s in there along with Lou, Dudley, Dragic, and another starter they usually get more stops than the starters do.
I am actually SHOCKED that Lou has more votes that Frye. I know people love his energy but c’mon now.
When Frye is hitting his threes, we're a very, very hard team to beat.
All goes down to spacing and him opening up the paint for Amare. Frye can be the most valuable player on the bench when he’s on. Unfortunately for him, he’s not always on. But to say he doesn’t bring as much as the other players would be foolish.
Bright Side of the Sun, for all things Phoenix Suns. Twitter: @iamtrevorpaxton
by iamtrevorpaxton on Mar 19, 2010 3:48 PM MDT up reply actions
Goran if I have to pick 1
Tough call between him and JD. But Goran’s confident now and he’s dishing, scoring, limiting the to’s and playing D. When he’s on, that 2nd unit will actually widen leads on teams. My 1st thought was JD because he’s consistent with what he does. But when I really think about it, gotta go with Goran. And everyone else on that unit contributes…Frye really opens things up and when his shot is on, we thrive. Lou’s energy on the boards and on D is also huge. And while LB’s been out, when he’s pushing the ball up under control and getting to the rim, or hitting his 3’s, we tend to blow people out.
But Goran is the key. It let’s Nash rest, but we still can maintain or sometimes increase a lead.
Depends on how you define 6th man
People generally think of a 6th man as the most valuable guy coming off the bench, and by that definition it would be hard to argue with Dragic.
However, as it was orginally conceived by Red Auerbach, the 6th man was really a starter who would come off the bench later to give the starting unit a punch when the energy was starting to run low. ( Frank Ramsey, certainly no slouch, was the original 6th man ).
Now, that may be a minor distinction, and I have no idea if coaches still use that criteria when they talk about 6th men, but I could see how both JD and Frye, both of whom could be starting (and have ) could fit that role. Barbosa certainly fit that classical mold when he won it as wel( as did ginobli)l. Your could also make the argument that Dragic, as great as he is, is not quite ready to play a starter role consistently and therefore not quite a 6th man.
So, that may be what coach had in mind, or it could be that he was drunk. Hard to say.
by Fritzy on Mar 19, 2010 12:44 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
great answer!
Frye is certainly the most “starter” like of the bunch…..at this point
Goran and eventually Clark after that as both play both ends of the floor and are the most athletic and skilled. At least we hope that’s the case w/ Earl
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Mar 19, 2010 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions
most questions in b ball and in life can be answered by consulting Red
on a related note, here’s something to chew on,
From 1950-1956, Red coached a talented crew that played uptempo ( they invented the fast break ), had a supernaturally talented point guard ( short and white ) and had huge regular season sucess every year, but kept coming up short every year in the playoffs. Red realized what he needed was a big, mobile, defensive oriented center to defend the paint.
He then drafted a young man named Bill Russell to the team…
Robin? history is calling..will you accept the charges?
Robin went to Stanford, so we know he's smart
but Russell was a genius, a basketball revolutionary, and in the conversation as the GOAT (my choice, but I’d respect anyone who chose from Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Kareem and Bird). Changed the game more profoundly than any other player.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Mar 19, 2010 4:01 PM MDT up reply actions
oh, i'm not seriously comparing Lopez to Russell
If I were, I’d deserve to be banned from the internets.
I do find it interesting to see the number of similarities between our team and the first celtic dynasty team.
Of course, as much as I respect Gentry he’s certainly not on Red’s level either, but personel-wise, I think if ol Red is looking down on our roster, he’s nodding in approval..
( and I would back you on Russell being GOAT )
Nash's career in a nutshell: there but for the lack of a decent center....
while I don’t think you need a HOF center to win a title, you at least need a borderline all-star/top-5 one, the only exception I can think of being the championship Bulls (but their center by committee, might have been).
We could have used Lopez 5 years ago.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Mar 19, 2010 4:34 PM MDT up reply actions
bet the hurt Jazz players will play
Does anyone think those questionable Jazz players (Williams, Kirilenko, Matthews) will sit out? I don’t. They’ll play hurt.
Hey, Nash played hurt the last time we went up against these guys. Either way we are due for a win against them and I think they know that. I wouldn’t be surprised if they sat out a couple of those guys. I think Derron will still play. I doubt he will play the 4rth quarter though if we go in with a 15-20 point lead like we did the last two games. I think they realize that we won’t let them comeback again.
wow - prescient huh?
Twitter: @dahking
Too late to change the stupid twitter name. Did it as a joke to my teenager, but now I'm hooked on the news-feed aspect of twitter.
JYD...His energy and gamesmarts changes the complexions of games...
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It's interesting that there's even a debate here..
Despite being injured most of this season, I’d vote for Leandro.
And my reasons are as follows: the traditional role of the 6th man, as was pointed out previously, is to be an impact offensive player, specifically to target a team that is tiring (and you get tired even after 5 mins playing ball at a pro level). So players like Heinsohn, Havlicek, McHale and especially Ginobili are what you want, in that role.
There’s a good case for arguing that last year, Leandro was our best player, and it wasn’t until he went down injured that our hopes for post season play vanished. He was our Ginobili last year.
Still, having said all that, the debate here is important. It means that we actually have depth, and enough depth for a second unit that is good enough to compete with a lot of teams near first units (first units missing 1 starter).
Aside from the individual contributions, Alvin might decide to use tactically, what has me excited me is that we can bring an entire unit onto the floor that is impactful as a whole, simply because both Leandro and Goran are such fast players. Imagine you’re playing us.. having to deal with Steve and Amare, you think you’re going to get a little break vs our second unit, and instead we just crank the pace up to 11, and you still have to defend the interior, midrange and the 3 because of Lou, Jared and Frye.
We haven’t seen it yet in full flight (although we saw hints of it vs the TWolves), and hopefully Alvin is just keeping that powder dry. Given the mix of starter time vs bench time in the playoffs, the opposition is in for a big surprise.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Mar 19, 2010 3:50 PM MDT reply actions
But he's healthy now, right ??
and if he is, there isn’t another bench player in the league, except Ginobili, who can take it to the other team with such authority (hah.. made myself laugh there)
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Mar 19, 2010 4:04 PM MDT up reply actions
Not game shape wise. He isn’t even near 100%. He needs time to get re-adjusted. Hopefully he can really soon. I’d like to see how good this team can be with a 100% Barbosa.
won't take him long to get back..
and he was so good last year.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Mar 19, 2010 4:28 PM MDT up reply actions
Its a real tough question
I love the way that the Lopez-Frye combo at center gives us such different looks. I don’t think theres a center in the league who can guard both of them.
I think Dudley is probably the leader the the second unit and he generally sets the tone with his defense. I really don’t like it the few times we play him at the 4 though.
I voted for Dragic though because he’s really the only non-starter who can create for himself and for others. Dudley and Frye are capable offensively in a system but if you were to give them the ball and ask them maintain the offense for a bit on their own then we’d be in pretty bad shape.
The last time I saw Dudley play point we got a 24 second violation and everybody on the bench was laughing because it was another turnover. Didn’t matter though as it was the last minute of the game and we had a 20 point lead.
I remember that play
There was like a 2 or 3 second difference between the shotclock and the gameclock in the 4th quarter. I think he was let the ball just kind of roll and was trying to convince the scorekeeper that it was a team turnover or something (if there’s such a thing). I always wondered after that whether they counted that as his TO or not.
Wow...A year ago this poll would of been 75% barbosa
but due to him being injured and ineffective last year due to having a different style of play people forget how valuable he really is…I’m sure if this poll was taken in a few weeks when Barbs is playing well (Hopefully) it wouldn’t be so slanted. I thought it was going to be ALL DRAGIC so i was very surprised to see how high Dudley got. I voted for Dudley since he comes in the game, guards the other teams best offensive weapon, can hit the J, has a low post game and can rebound. He is very charasmatic and when he is on he can spark the whole team. He is our second unit leader and too me is pretty much Bruce Bowen 2.0…Minus being a total dick.
"I don't care what people think, people are stupid."-Charles Barkley
Loooooooooooooooooooou!!!
I honestly think Lou has been our biggest impact player. I know how important Goran is for his ability to lead the 2nd unit and let Nash rest. JD can play multiple positions as well as guard multiple positions. He can knock down the 3 and he hustles and plays great D. The man works perfectly for the system.
However, I find Lou to be the true sixth man. The main reason is that for a guy like Lou, he never has an off night. Out of the 5 in the poll, Lou is the only one who has never fallen into a slump or anything of that sort. Sometimes, Goran, Leandro, Channing, and Jared sometimes fall into shooting slumps and might not be as effective in some games.
Lou on the other hand.. He comes out with a lot of energy and he provides great interior defense and hustle. The man rebounds as well as Dennis Rodman and he blocks like Mutombo. I’m not saying he’s on their level but I’m just trying to say that Lou has that type of talent. I think he’s a Ben Wallace type player with better offensive skills. He rebounds and plays defense but he also runs the pick and roll effectively. I guess you can say he’s our version of the Birdman. It’s no wonder he became a fan favorite. I’m glad Lou has found a home here with the Suns.
























