Steve Nash Calls Arizona Immigration Bill "Very Misguided"
by Seth Pollack on May 4, 2010 1:59 PM MDT
in Phoenix Suns News
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In an extremely bold move, the Phoenix Suns as an organization made a strong political statement in opposition to the recent Arizona immigration bill.
Discussions on taking action began last week after the bill passed, with an idea that came from Robert Sarver, Managing Partner of the Phoenix Suns.
According to Steve Kerr, the team discussed it internally before going to the league for approval to both wear the 'Los Suns' jerseys, but also to come out publicly in this way.
Kerr said both the NBA and the San Antonio Spurs were fully supportive of the Suns move.
Ultimately, the decision was left up to the players, but in a locker room led by Steve Nash, it is no surprise how that turned out.
"I think the law is very misguided. I think it is unfortunately to the detriment of our society and our civil liberties and I think it is very important for us to stand up for things we believe in," Nash said of the bill. "I think the law obviously can target opportunities for racial profiling. Things we don't want to see and don't need to see in 2010."
Amare Stoudemire and Alvin Gentry also expressed their support for the decision with more of a focus on supporting their neighbors. "It's going to be great to wear Los Suns to let the Latin community know we're behind them 100%," Stoudemire said.
There's no question that this public move will receive considerable backlash in this state and likely among many Suns fans and perhaps even sponsors.
Steve Kerr tried to walk the line between the political implications by talking about the move as a way for an organization that is in the public eye to push the discussion.
"We want to celebrate the diversity that exists in our state and exists in the NBA. We know what's going on and we don't agree with the law itself," Kerr said.
Steven Nash was well aware of the perception the recent bill created for Arizona and that seemed to play a role in his decision, "It doesn't feel good to have people around the world and around the country look at our state as less than equal, less than fair. As proud citizen of this state, I want us to be held be held in the highest esteem. I think we have a lot of great attributes and a lot of great people and I think we need to be very cautious in how we respect our civil liberties and the tone we're setting and the precedents we're setting moving forward."
[Note by Seth Pollack, 05/04/10 4:08 PM MST ]
It would seem over the last few hours while I was in a meeting, a lot of discussion has taken place. That's for keeping it civil. I actually had this exact debate with my neighbor a few days ago. He works in the construction industry and had a lot of insight on this first hand. He was in favor of the new bill and I of course was opposed.
On thing we were able to agree on was that something needed to be done to provide a legal process to meet the labor needs. We went round and round to get there but ultimately found common ground.
Hopefully, this is the kind of thing that can happen as a result of the Suns decision. It's exactly what Steve Kerr seemed to be hoping for.
As for actually basketball stuff - there's plenty of that coming later tonight. Don't worry, we won't belabor this topic.
In the mean time, here's some related links:
- As Protests Continue, The Phoenix Suns Speak Out Against Arizona's New Immigration Law - SB Nation
Well, if you're an immigrant to the United States in Arizona—or you even look like an immigrant—you'd be risking arrest if you leave your house without your license, birth certificate and your social security card. It sounds dramatic, but witness this recent incident, where an American-born truck driver was pulled over and detained after providing his license to authorities: - SUNS: 2010 Playoff Video Archive
Watch the latest Suns video features from Suns.com TV, Suns Gametime, Suns Live and Suns Vision! - Phoenix to wear 'Los Suns' jerseys for Game 2 vs. Spurs
Phoenix to wear 'Los Suns' jerseys for Game 2 vs. Spurs, Robert Sarver makes a bold statement regarding recently passed Arizona immigration law. {bnl} More: from San Antonio Express-News - 2010 NBA Playoffs: Phoenix Suns sending strong message through jersey switch - ESPN
Good for Sarver. The only time we're used to seeing pro sports team owners take a public stance on a political legislation is when there's a stadium funding bill on the ballot. But something has gotten into Sarver. In the Suns' 111-102 victory over the Spurs in Game 1 on Monday night he was on his feet, exhorting the crowd to make more noise. Now he's jumping into this divisive issue. - NBA.com: Phoenix to wear Los Suns jerseys, bringing politics to court
The basketball court is rarely if ever the site of a political statement, much less during an NBA playoff game. Politics are going to be center court Wednesday night. - Suns to Wear 'Los Suns' Jerseys in Protest of Arizona's Immigration Law -- NBA FanHouse
PHOENIX -- When it comes to home team signage inside the US Airways Center, the 'Los Suns' jerseys that Phoenix will wear for Game 2 - Nash opens series with personal greeting - NBA - Yahoo! Sports
The Spurs have frequently turned Nash into a scorer over the years, reasoning that is better to let him loose if they can stay close to the Suns’ shooters. Still, this was different. With Bruce Bowen(notes) no longer around to harass him, Nash took the fight to San Antonio. George Hill(notes) – the hero of the Spurs’ first-round victory over Dallas – wasn’t up for it
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Thats coming from some floppy mouthed Canadian
I'LL BITCH SLAP YOU WITH ROBERT SWIFT!!!
by My Name is Bryce on May 4, 2010 2:04 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Bravo Suns organization, Kudos
I am starting to finally “respect” the new Suns Organization. At least someone in AZ has balls to make a statement
-———————————————————————
In a statement, Sarver said the frustration with the federal government’s failure to deal with the illegal immigration issue led to the passage of what he called “a flawed state law.”
He said that the law calls into question “our basic principles of equal rights and protection under the law” and will cause Arizona’s economy to suffer setbacks at a time when the state is already in economic distress.
Read the full article here: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/news/story?id=5162380
Shazzam!
you guys should read the bill instead of reading what steve nash and sarver said about it...
the law only makes it illegal to smuggle people into the country, illegal to employ illegal aliens, and empowers law enforcement officers to use “probable cause” to question someone’s immigration status… if they choose to act without probably cause that is a huge lawsuit waiting to happen…
Umm try again
Maybe you should read the bill again, try section B and look for the words “reasonable suspicion” NOT “probable cause”. There is a big difference and that’s the reason, well one of them, that is the cause of controversy.
It’s not made up.
Makes them less human in a way.
If you do not have papers and see a crime after the bill takes effect you have to run away.
If you even witness a car crash and wait as a witness the police currently ask for your id. It is so the court/insurance can contact you. If you do not have one and are hispanic you will likely be deported.
If robbed at gunpoint, asked to dump toxic waste at work, or sleep with the boss, the same applies. They make the perfect victims.
by mindlessfluff on May 4, 2010 5:05 PM MDT up reply actions
Here's the thing ...
“reasonable suspicion” is grounds for an investigation — that’s already the law
“probably cause” needs to exist for an arrest — still the law
If an officer has a “reasonable suspicion” that someone is casing your house to rob it, I’d bet that you would want the police to investigate. At that point in time, the officer should make, when practicable, a reasonable attempt to determine if that person is contemplating robbing your house.
Same standard of investigation for different criminal offenses. Not too much wrong with that.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
Your right......kinda
Reasonable suspicion has existed, I never said it was new to law enforcement, BUT it is new when it comes to immigration. How else would you have reasonable suspicion unless you racial profile to determine someones citizenship status? That’s the point and it’s why people are upset. And please don’t tell me clothing, etc. It comes down to race, plain and simple.
race and/or language
for profiling purposes. Yes, profiling happens, and in relation to all sorts of crimes. All investigators and cops always say, “I wonder what kind of person would have violated crime [fill in the blank]?”
I’m pretty sure border patrol agents can get away with just about anything for just about any reason near the border. This is — at most — a minor expansion of investigative powers. “Reasonable suspicion” is a pretty high standard given what can be done at the borders. Cavity searches are legally performed with a lower standard.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
Get away with?
Yes, they can “get away with” a lot. But this law doesn’t pertain to the Border Patrol. And its a matter of what’s legal, not what they can “get away with.”
You are not right at all. Sorry to mrrydogg, as I support your view. However… the 4th amendment reads:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
You cannot search a person without a warrant. You cannot get a warrant without probable cause.
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
you don't need a warrant to arrest someone
if that officer has probably cause to believe a crime has been committed — unless that person is in his/her house.
I won’t get into it here, but think about it for a second. How many arrests would be made if the cop had to get a warrant every time?
“Wait here. Don’t move. I’m going to get a warrant and then I’ll arrest you. Promise not to move.”
Also, the Bill of Rights specifically limits the government’s actions against citizens. That’s why the US can bomb the crap out of house if they believe terrorists live there — without getting a warrant to do so.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
Not in the United States they can’t.
A police officer can arrest someone if they witness a crime being committed, not if they believe one is about to be committed. They can stop the crime, they cannot arrest someone until they attempt to perpetrate the crime.
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
Right. What's your point?
I was talking about “probable cause to believe a crime has been committed …” past tense, not Minority Report
Mmmmm ... Guinness
They have no probable cause. Where is the probable cvause to ask people for paper work while they are walking down the street?
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
There is no "probable cause" requirement to stop anyone from anything
Otherwise, you could never be pulled over on a suspicion of DUI. The suspicion is what allows the field sobriety test and the BAC testing to go forward. All you need to a “reasonable suspicion” that someone is driving drunk — all a cop needs to do is claim that you were going too fast or too slow or weaving within your lane or turning in the middle lane instead of the right-most lane.
Otherwise, no cop could take a description of a robber or rapist and grab the described person for questioning.
“Probable cause” is not required to institute an investigation — not in any setting and not for any alleged crime.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
1. They don’t pull people over for suspicion of DUI. They pull people over for swerving in between lanes, not using a turn signal, etc. When they walk up and you reek like booze, they have cause to implement a field sobriety test.
2. Why not? If there has been a description given, they have cause to question. However, if I say I want to walk away from the questioning, they best have a warrant to keep me there.
3. No, PC is not needed to start an investigation. However, it is necessary if you wish to gather evidence not in plain sight, such as some one’s documentation.
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
Also, the police may take you into custody. To place you under arrest, and hold you past 24 hours (48 in some states) they need a warrant.
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
The first part of my reply was to your belief that the feds can blow up a house without a warrant. Inside the borders of the US, no they cannot.
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
The feds can blow up a house outside fo the US without a warrant
That’s proof the 4th Amendment does not apply to Al Queda
Mmmmm ... Guinness
No one said it did.
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
Maybe it wasn't you
but there was someone on here saying that the illegal immigrants were protected from unreasonable searches and seizures
Mmmmm ... Guinness
Technically, they are, if inside the boarders. My issue with this law is not that a non-citizen might be searched, it is that there is no way for them to avoid violating the rights of the citizens.
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
BReynolds, your arguement has a big flaw....
The United States Constitution applies to citizens of the United States
NOT to citizens of foreign countries, but when certain LEGAL documents are filled out, this turns them into citizens! It may be a lengthy process that needs reform, but it has been the current law long before this bill. Unfortunately, it is not a human right to be a citizen of the U.S and enjoy all the freedom and benefits we do. We American citizens are lucky, as are the legal immigrants
This law makes it illegal to be an illegal immigrant?? What?? Thats already the law guys, hence illegal immigrant. As an American citizen I would not feel violated being asked if im a citizen and show id. Dont cops usually ask for id in any sitution currently? Oh an racial profiling already exists (ask airport workers), but cops are people and are not going to just turn into a racist because of a stupid bill….
Basketball > Politics i will watch cnn if i want politics
GO SUNS
by Earl Clark isarealsuperstar on May 4, 2010 11:29 PM MDT up reply actions
False.
The constitution applies to the federal government. It tells the government what it can and can’t do. As such, the bill of rights “applies” equally to all persons under the jurisdiction of the United States, regardless of citizenship or immigration status.
All the good parts of our fight song were taken.
by ToStirItRound on May 5, 2010 12:10 AM MDT up reply actions
True...however
The 10th amendment does say that:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
In this case, the constitution does not have anything in it, that I am aware of that says the state can not police itself, and because of that, the state is putting a law in allowing it to police itself.
The law is well within its constitutional right. Now, whether it is ethical, or human is a whole other story.
Can't think of something catchy to say here...I suck.
Ok, but states still can’t violate the 4th amendment. Also, this puts the burden of proof on the accused.
All the good parts of our fight song were taken.
by ToStirItRound on May 5, 2010 11:12 AM MDT up reply actions
Article 1, Section 8. Do your research, would you, please?
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization
The Supreme Court has ruled that this also applies to immigration. When becoming a state, AZ gave up the right to decide who crosses their border and who doesn’t. The 10th amendment applies only to those things not listed in the Constitution, which as I already have shown, it is.
The 4th amendment secures all US citizens in their papers. It specifically says papers. If one, even one US citizen is asked to prove their citizenship, this law has violated their Constitutional rights, and thus is Unconstitutional.
Thoſe who would give up Essential Liberty to purchaſe a little Temporary Safety, deſerve neither Liberty nor Safety.
- Ben Franklin
You willing to give up your fundamental rights? I’m not.
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
The Power to create the INS is not the same as the power to punish
Creating the body is not the same as doling out punishment for those who violate laws. States are empowered create criminal codes. There’s no federal pre-emption in that portion of the Constitution.
At the same time, I’m slightly interested as to your argument regarding proving your citizenship status. I like it, but how is that anyone different from a requirement to prove you’ve got a valid driver’s license or auto insurance? There, the state is able to turn the burden of proof on its head because proof of the fact is more easily borne by the individual — mainly, I think, becuase it’s hard to prove the absence of a negative.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
1. The Supreme Court disagrees. Take it up with them.
2. The police cannot stop every person driving a car to demand license and insurance. You must commit a crime first. Speeding, reckless driving, etc.
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
1. I’m not so sure about this, but I’m not an immigration lawyer.
2. Yes, you can pretty much be stopped for anything at anytime while driving. The “signs and symptoms” of impaired driving are vague, but they support just about any stop.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
1. I’m not a lawyer at all, but I have google, as do you.
2. Sure, they can stop you anytime they want, but they have sworn an oath not to do so. Do cops do it? Without a doubt. However, they shouldn’t, and if it is found they did so, they would be in trouble.
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
And yours has an even bigger flaw
What makes you think the police are going to be able to only stop illegals? Is there a stamp on their head that identifies them as such?
If you’re a legal immigrant or brown citizen, why should you be required to carry extra documentation compared to “real Americans”? Why should you have to give up the right to not be searched?
by Mint on May 5, 2010 8:45 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
you should too
replace the word Illegal with the word JEW, BLACK, MORMON, etc (whatever you are, and then tell me its not profiling…)
Shazzam!
for the last time
equal rights and protection under ther law applies to citizens, not foreign nationals, and unfortunately, the rancher in Southern AZ was not afforded this protection. Also, this is none of Nash’s business since he is not an American citizen. Finally, as far as what Sarver said, well, we are a nation of laws, and if one law is broken, do we break some more to protect our precious economy from threats, or do we deal with it through the legal system?
The law is only flawed in the eyes of people whose interests might be threatened by enforcement.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
by Hawk42 on May 4, 2010 4:05 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
People are suddenly getting all righteous about the laws, as if they agree with them all
We could have this same argument about marijuana. I’m sure there’s at least a decent portion of folks here that think marijuana should be legal and that it’s ridiculous that it’s punished so severely.
i have never smoked pot and i think it should be legal to some extent...
i wouldn’t want my kids doing it but i don’t think it is such a hard drug that it needs to be illegal… people need to have the freedoms in this country to make their own choices… if some people want to smoke pot a few times a week after work i don’t think i have the right to tell them not to as long as they arent’t infringing on the rights of others…
I smoke the reefer!
And am glad not only smokers agree the laws are pretty damn harsh and somewhat unnecessary…
by Earl Clark isarealsuperstar on May 4, 2010 11:32 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah I've never smoked marijuana
But it’s ridiculous that it’s illegal. It’s far less dangerous than alcohol.
Nash lives in this country...
and has a work visa to be here legally. He has every right to give his opinion as much as you do, even (especially) if it isn´t the same as yours.
by bmxican on May 4, 2010 4:11 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is mostly about citizens
The loudest outcry is biggest this changes equal protection for Hispanic or Latino Citizens here legally who now can be stopped and questioned if there is “reasonable suspicion”.
No one is arguing that illegal aliens should be allowed free access to the country without following the proper procedures to come here legally.
i agree
wonder how to improve/amend the law to keep doing what it intends for illegals but protect the legal hispanic / latino citizens…
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
Clarification:
They have to already be stopped, or be in contact with law enforcement for some other reason. Then they can only be questioned if the officer can come up with some reason besides race, ability to speak English, skin color, etc. for thinking they are here illegally.
If those requirements are met, then citizens can be questioned.
But even then, all they have to do is show their driver’s license, and BAM! No more questions.
um, actually
Mr. Fake Lawyer, US law applies to everyone regardless of citizenship. Try murdering some tourists and claiming that they are not protected by US law.
The sentence is “All men are created equal,” not “All men in the United States are created equal.”
Meanwhile, keep making up laws in your head. You’re a real authority.
by dennis crumble on May 4, 2010 4:20 PM MDT up reply actions
Mr. Fake Lawyer is right
Different investigation standards apply based on citizenship status.
Your argument is also misplaced. Tourists are not protected by the law forbidding murder; rather, the murderer is punished for violating the law forbidding murder.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
If anyone is intersted
the AZ Republic features section wants to talk to Suns fans (from AZ) that have opinions on this either way.
email me your contact info and I will pass it along
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
While I am very passionate about my political beliefs
I hate discussing them, because it never goes anywhere good. No one’s minds are going to be miraculously changed by anything I have to say.
All I have to say about this is that it’s refreshing that the Suns recognize the tremendous impact and influence the Hispanic community has in this state.
It depends
I like debates … I don’t like arguments.
by jburning on May 4, 2010 3:45 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's part of the problem
Too many idiots out there. I’d rather not get into a headache-inducing argument with them. Sure, I’m never going to be someone who changes the world, but I’ll have a lot fewer ulcers.
by jburning on May 4, 2010 3:47 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good point
this is obviously going to create a lot of heated discussion -
please be civil.
Anything less won’t be permitted here.
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on May 4, 2010 2:19 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
you hippie
I'LL BITCH SLAP YOU WITH ROBERT SWIFT!!!
by My Name is Bryce on May 4, 2010 2:21 PM MDT up reply actions
I say invite the Portland fans.
There opinions are always welcome. Especially when put across aggressively and repetitively.
Lou Amundson can lead a horse to water AND make it drink. Why? Because he's Lou f*cking Amundson, that's why.
Let's see...
if only the players visualize the Spurs as a bunch of uncivilized, argumentative barbarians, we would sweep in four games.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
I just think it's nice
to see the organization united, no matter which way they think, for or against, it’s refreshing to see a professional sports team act as a family does.
I agree with you.
I may not agree 100% wiuth the stand they are taking, but how often do you see a team have a united postion on a difficult issue. Usually you just have on loudmouth that embarasses the whole team. It seems the team is unified (can only be good for a playoff run).
by Suns Fan For Life on May 4, 2010 7:57 PM MDT up reply actions
answers me question further down
I think this is likely to only help this suns team. Even though I’m not behind them on the “this law is bad” stuff, I do like that they’re all together apparently
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
All I want to say
is that I’m really happy to be a Suns fan.
"Basketball doesn't build character. It reveals it"
by PanamaSun on May 4, 2010 2:29 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
But we can still....
….deport Ginobili, right?
by East Bay Ray on May 4, 2010 2:33 PM MDT reply actions 7 recs
+1
Parker too? 2 for 1?
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
They will both be deported
In three more games.
"The Nash abides."
I don't know about you, but I take comfort in that.
It's good to know he's out there, The Nash, taking 'er easy for all us sinners.
Not to piss anybody off...
I don’t necessarily agree with the law so much as I think extreme measures need to be taken.
I don’t know if any of you have children in the school districts that are over run IE (Phoenix Union) (I graduated from Alhambra Highschool, where I was the majority even though I only made up 10% of the population of the school). My tax dollars are being spent on people that are not citizens. I will gladley apply my tax dollars to any legal citizen. But it is an atrocity that my child will suffer because our system is over run and stressed due to people arriving illigally by the millions. People who seem to be against this policy beyond the illigals or people who have illigal relatives seem to the be the people that do not live and breath the effects these people have on local economy. I personally have no problem showing my ID if I have commited a crime or if I’m loitering or what have you if it means my child will have a chair, a desk, the books required, a teacher, and halfway decent teacher to child ration in public school.
Is it really our responsibility as citizens to take care of people who have broken our laws to get here? We can’t even fix ourselfs why should we try to fix them?
Any way thats just my 40 cents worth. … go ahead and flame on.
TO THE NBA - " Yeah, you have created a rift within me ; Now there have been ; several complications ; that have left me feeling nothing ; I might say, you were ; wrong to take it from me ; Left me feeling nothing " - Disturbed, "Numb"
by antiw0rm on May 4, 2010 2:45 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
bleh wording fail.
sorry didnt have time to read it when i posted. hopefully you catch my drift.
TO THE NBA - " Yeah, you have created a rift within me ; Now there have been ; several complications ; that have left me feeling nothing ; I might say, you were ; wrong to take it from me ; Left me feeling nothing " - Disturbed, "Numb"
How about
a sales tax to support schools and not property tax? Then the 40% of the people who attend school and pay nothing will pay their fair share (these are people who rent and do not pay property tax, which traditionally supports schools). Then the quality of education for all will go up, since everyone buys goods and services, legal or illegal.
Does Nash care about that problem, or does he just think we can have a government utopia where our Daddy pays all of the bills?
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
I hadn't thought about this angle
I was just ticked they weren’t going to take money away from extraneous programs to fund schools.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
makes non-property owners
pay their fair share for gov’t services
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
That the argument for a VAT, in general
I mean, it would also apply to those who don’t pay any taxes whatsoever.
It’s still problematic with both a property tax and a sales tax.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
I grew up in Phoenix area too..
And while I agree that it’s unfair for ur children & the tax paying people this law is ridiculous.. Have you ever seen what Joe Arpio does?? He goes into heavely Hispanics neighbehoods.. Then proceeds to stop people for stupid reasons!!! It’s not a matter of showing your ID, which since 9/11 is a must.. It’s the fact that only a certain race is being targeted!!! With this law now every cop can do this… Do u think this law is not going to get abuse?
by Aztiramtempe on May 4, 2010 3:24 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
I dont disagree or agree.
I can say it has the potential to be abused, which should be the real debate. But in that same token, Arizona is now being viewed as a racist state and the preception of the state is tarnished. I think that is wrong. The overall idea is good for the state, the law as somebody said “needs tweeking”.
TO THE NBA - " Yeah, you have created a rift within me ; Now there have been ; several complications ; that have left me feeling nothing ; I might say, you were ; wrong to take it from me ; Left me feeling nothing " - Disturbed, "Numb"
Law Enforcement Officers NEED probably cause to question someone… if probable cause isnt good enough in this case then probable cause should just be completely removed from all situations… obviously that would be ridiculous because a lot of things are not cut and dry and require judgement calls… if officers abuse this they will CERTAINLY face lawsuits…
They will face lawsuits regardless of abuse...
Can you say Phoenix New Times? La Raza?
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Look at the bill
“reasonable suspicion” is the term used. Section B.
Stop spreading lies and quoting another part of the bill.
People need to realize how this protects citizens and the cops. Phoenix is the #1 city as far as kidnapping (i know a little about crime since I currently live in baltimore). This is mostly due to drug dealers here illegally. The cops need something to stand on. Also everyday citizens need to be protected.
by Suns Fan For Life on May 4, 2010 8:01 PM MDT up reply actions
So let me get this straight.
Are all the illegal immigrants kidnappers, and drug dealers? If we didn’t buy drugs or some was legalized, they wouldn’t have any business here. Tons of Chinese immigrants come to where I live; San Francisco, but do we make a law saying that cops can racially profile them? No! Yes, some commit crimes, just like how African Americans and Caucasians do also. So we are now a intolerant nation? And don’t say “they wont racially profile hispanics”, It’s already happened, and you know it will happen, and you should know about crime living it Baltimore. It had the number 3 most homicides in the United States in the past decade.
R U ORNG?
i said it
tweeking to protect legal immigrants, etc but to still be able to go after illegals.
I left Phoenix. My kids no longer go to schools that are over flowing with lack of money (1% property tax…wow…not hard to figure out why az public schools are doing so badly) , overflowing with students (I know of multiple schools with 45-50 students per class..elementary level), and with students that don’t even speak english or have money for lunch!
Part of the problem with Phoenix school system is a lack of money. Kids going to school are children of illegals and don’t pay taxes at all. it’s a mess
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
My wife is a teacher, who teaches mostly immigrants
And these sorts of bills that focus solely on deportation and NOT on converting illegal immigrants to legal immigrants just help destroy the state and county infrastructures of Arizona, by removing a large portion of this state’s citizenry and tax-generation. No, they don’t pay income tax, but they pay sales tax and other levies. Seems to me that the smart thing to do would be to expedite their citizenship, so that they CAN start paying taxes.
This is where I begin to wonder why everyone’s so eager to deport them. I won’t make any accusations, but anyone with a shred of logic can see the gist.
by jburning on May 4, 2010 3:39 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
I don't care how it gets done.
The simple fact is something needs to change and quickly. If they pay taxes…great I don’t care. I’m not against any one person. But I am against expecting something for nothing when that something comes from me (my taxes keep going up) and takes away from my family. So while I can see what you are saying and I don’t claim to have the answers something has to be done. Our state is already on the fringe.
However, we can’t REALLY predict the outcome because we dont REALLY know how many illegals there are do we? (sure we have estimates but really do we know?) I think thats what makes this such a tough issue.
TO THE NBA - " Yeah, you have created a rift within me ; Now there have been ; several complications ; that have left me feeling nothing ; I might say, you were ; wrong to take it from me ; Left me feeling nothing " - Disturbed, "Numb"
wow... that is ass-backwards...
converting illegal immigrants to legal immigrants would only incentivize something ILLEGAL
by Superelkman on May 4, 2010 3:47 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
but you can atleast see how giving illegal immigrants citizen status would only increase the problem because then we are saying it is ok to do something illegal as long as you get away with it…
I don't agree with this
Keep in mind, though, I’m not saying the government should say “Hey all of you illegal folks, you are now magically legal!” … they’d have to be given a timeline, then if they comply … fantastic, welcome to the country! If they don’t then they can face deportation. Deportation should NOT be the first option, though.
The only problem with that solution:
Our country operates based on the idea that completely open borders would be a significant burden, so we should have controlled immigration. We should control who immigrates, and how many people immigrate.
If anybody can just cross the border illegally and then become a citizen through some uniform method, we sacrifice a great deal of that control. We suddenly have no control over the number of immigrants at all. We could always reduce the number of legal immigrants we allow according to the number of illegal immigrants who apply for citizenship, but that would just incentivize illegal immigration even more: illegal immigration would become the guaranteed fast track to citizenship.
Any method for legitimizing illegal immigration would have to apply only to children under a certain age, and never to immigrants who knowingly eschewed the legal immigration process.
"they’d have to be given a timeline, then if they comply … fantastic, welcome to the country!"
That sounds an awful lot like the process for legal immigration…
Main difference is ...
I don’t think a lot of the Mexican immigrants we’re talking about have access to the kind of information they need to become citizens.
They do, actually
The problem is that most of the information coming from south of the border is how to evade capture as an illegal immigrant
Mmmmm ... Guinness
Remember that...
in the majority of cases, the immigrants who come here illegally do so in order to work and make a better life for themselves. They are not bank robbers and should not be compared to them. I understand your point… they break our laws by coming here illegally, however, many of them don’t and would like to be law-abaiding, tax-paying citizens if they could.
Well,
I guess so. I wonder what the people who come to this country and go through the process to become legal think. I am sure it is a long process, my grandparents did from Europe, and it worked out. Is it different now?
no are you serious man...
there OF COURSE has to be a process for immigration and it should be a selective one… not everyone can just become a citizen of this country because they merely want to… there are obviously many problems with that…
No
I think everyone in the whole wide world should come in, no borders, no policy, no rules, no nothing, no work, no jobs, just sit around and smoke weed all day and play X-box.
PS3>360
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
by rsavaj on May 4, 2010 10:10 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
they are eager to deport them because they came into our country ILLEGALLY man...
I have no problem with LEGAL immigration nor does this law affect legal immigration but these are illegal immigrants… they are breaking the law…
This makes me wonder...
if you have much of a clue as to what it takes to immigrate here legally from Central/South America.
i have no clue what it is like to immigrate here from Central/South America...
but not everyone can be let in to our country… so we have to be selective with the people we do let in… and of course process should be followed…
I am sure we would have the same issue if we tried to immigrate to another country. I would venture to guess that most other countries are much more strict than ours
by Suns Fan For Life on May 4, 2010 8:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Central Americans
are targeted for rape and murder if they breach the Southern border with Mexico. They (Mexican government) don’t tolerate illegal immigration at all.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
jburning...
secondly how do you legalize milllions and millions of people….
That will create essentially a gold rush to the united states. Where do you start and stop? Once they are legal the ones not commiting fraud and accepted welfare and taking advantage of the system will then be able to legally take advantage of the system. I know it sucks but the only solution I can see is to make them not want to come here. Once they are out put in place more avenues for becoming a citizen. Maybe something like that?
TO THE NBA - " Yeah, you have created a rift within me ; Now there have been ; several complications ; that have left me feeling nothing ; I might say, you were ; wrong to take it from me ; Left me feeling nothing " - Disturbed, "Numb"
i agree... making legal immigration and illegal immigration harder is probably a better solution....
i am all for immigration if done through the proper avenues… it is part of what our nation was founded on…
It would have to be something like
On a case-by-case basis. Just as deporting millions and millions of people at once would be a huge issue as well.
I think the fundamental difference between my views and some others is that I don’t view illegal immigration as much of a crime, as least if you are willing to resolve it. If for some reason, someone’s citizenship comes into question, give them a timeframe to get their citizenship or working visa squared away, then if they still decide not to do it, then you can deport.
But a lot of these folks coming over don’t have access to the information they need to become legal. They’re too poor, come from a country where the spread of information is not the priority it is in America, particularly if you are from a lower class in that country.
They're also fearful, for great reason
They fear how they will be treated if they try to come forward to become legal. I’ve lived in this state my whole life; there is still such a strong undertone of racism to a lot of this, despite how PC we may pretend to be.
Keep in mind
I’m not referring to any of the posters here. Just saying, there’s a lot of racism in Arizona towards people of Hispanic descent.
I think along the lines of what you are saying....
is that we simply need more avenue to legalize citizens… a 15 year list is simply not working?
TO THE NBA - " Yeah, you have created a rift within me ; Now there have been ; several complications ; that have left me feeling nothing ; I might say, you were ; wrong to take it from me ; Left me feeling nothing " - Disturbed, "Numb"
Why not simply require the Mexican government to
treat its citizens better, or we won’t buy any more oil? Lets face it. Is there any reason why a nation so rich in natural resources, manpower, and beautiful landscapes such as Mexico chugs along at 1/10th the GNP as the US, somehow surviving decades after decades of corrupt government and a law enforcement system where firefights between Feds and local cops is commonplace?
The only way this problem goes away is if Mexico prospers. Why can’t anyone figure that out?
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
I agree
Hawk, great point. Unfortunately we will waiting a long, long time until Mexico gets it shit together.
until then
people will risk everything to get here, and we won’t figure it out until our governments go broke. This has been a great strain economically for a long time, and has contributed to the present crisis.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
most of the focus here is on Mexican people because obviously that is what borders Arizona but I think any state should have the right to secure their borders as long as it is done constitutionally... there is nothing wrong or racist in the law...
the people who enforce it I can’t speak for but the law does require they do have probable cause….
I would be just as supportive of any Northern state tightening their borders to canada if it were as big of a problem as it is in Arizona…
when people can get into our country undetected that is a major national security issue…
by Superelkman on May 4, 2010 4:06 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
In principle, I agree
But I simply don’t think the intentions of a lot of immigration bills in Arizona are as pure as you’d like to believe.
Then vote them out
or run yourself. We cannot govern by the mob mentality, or petitions, boycotts, or street marches.
We are not a pure democracy, or else everything would be done like American Idol. EVERYTHING. We are a representative democracy. I dn’t like Obama, but I don’t get a chance to change it until 2012, or at least to reduce his power in the Congressional elections. I don’t say that to bring up another debate, but to simply point out that a REPRESENTATIVE democracy with checks and balances (the three branches) is LAW. When the voice in the street becomes law, we have chaos.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
by Hawk42 on May 4, 2010 10:48 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
if it is, it is not nearly as unconstitutional as forcing people to buy health insurance as will be the norm in 2014 due to the new health care bill...
also there isn’t anything unconstitutional in this bill… what basic rights are infringed upon here… most of the people affected are people illegally here and not entitled to the same rights as legal citizens…
i agree 100% that I do not want this to be a platform for officers to abuse their power… but assuming they will is purely speculation….
by Superelkman on May 4, 2010 7:21 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
PSN ID- presbot
there’s so many exceptions to that amendment that, for all practical purposes, the amendment is the exception to the rule.
in any event, the fourth amendment has no application to investigations — which is what the language of section B deals with
Mmmmm ... Guinness
Name these exceptions, please.
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
where to start?
If you get pulled over and the cops think you’re able to get away before they can get a warrant, they can search the car.
If letting you go poses an “imminent threat” to public safety, they can chase you into your house.
They are allowed to do “safety pat-downs” without even having reason to arrest you.
If they happen to be in your house, they can “scan the immediate area” for danagers — which has been expanded to include several rooms away.
I could go get my textbook from law school if you’d like.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
1. No they can’t.
2. Correct, but they have to have witnessed you commit a crime.
3. No they are not, if you refuse.
4. If they happen to be in your house? Why are they in the house? You can ask them to leave, and they must go.
I would very much like you to go get your text book from law school. Maybe you should read it, too.
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
I've got to go home to see if I still have it, but I'll just debunk one of your points
because I don’t have time to do them all.
Go check out this article of a reported AZ Supreme Court opinion and tell me how many teeth are left in the 4th Amendment:
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/news/19974
Mmmmm ... Guinness
I should go to a site called the Smirking Chimp and trust that it is valid information? Um… will do.
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
Here's the decision
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/08pdf/07-1122.pdf
Guy was searched because he said he was a gang member. Nothing else. No evidence he had done anything wrong. No evidence to suggest he was actually a gang member.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
I would need to see the details of the case, but I am willing to wager the police had reason to conduct the search.
The 4th amendment still has plenty of teeth, and I have been witness and party to cases in which it was violated, and charges dropped.
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
here's the "stop and frisk" case; Terry v. Ohio
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0392_0001_ZS.html
Mmmmm ... Guinness
I will read this in due time. However, you did not assert that you meant they could frisk people after stopping them for a valid reason. They cannot pat me down just for walking down the street.
Rule #17: You may not impersonate representatives of Hockey Wilderness and handout NHL themed wrist bands.
"valid reason" is the hinge
In Terry, the guy was stopped because he was walking on the street outside of a closed shop and the cop testified he thought the guy was casing the joint.
So, you tell me how hard it’s going to be to come up with a “valid reason” to stop someone. After that, do a safety pat-down and you’re golden.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
no, not for absolutely no stated reason
If there’s a somewhat supportable stated reason, supported by the cops’ instincts (which are, usually pretty good), then you get searched.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
So true. This law pales in comparison to the rights that have been taklen from us by the new health care bill
by Suns Fan For Life on May 4, 2010 8:11 PM MDT up reply actions
ditto that
Talk about ‘unreasonable search and seizure’. There is a whole section in the health care law that allows the government access to ALL personal financial accounts, ostensibly to verify ability to pay. Who is comfortable with that? It is a short hop from ‘financial verification’ to ‘financial confiscation’.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
Really?
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Absolutely. How can the federal government force someone to pay for a privilege. They have given power to the IRS to withhold tax returns for those who have not bought health insurance. That is how they are going to enforce your the fines. Word of warnig. Underpay your taxes for the year. Plan on paying at the end, becuase if you overpay you may never get it back.
by Suns Fan For Life on May 5, 2010 7:49 AM MDT up reply actions
if so, let judicial review run it's course
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
Agreed. I too don't mind the immigration. Hell we are all immigrants in one way or another.
As you said deporting millions, importing millions they all have their problems. I think we are just going to have to attempt to take the lesser of the evils.
TO THE NBA - " Yeah, you have created a rift within me ; Now there have been ; several complications ; that have left me feeling nothing ; I might say, you were ; wrong to take it from me ; Left me feeling nothing " - Disturbed, "Numb"
no one hear minds immigration... if done legally...
when immigration is illegal that is the problem…
The problem
Is that for many of the Mexicans immigrating here, they’re not provided an up-front opportunity to be a citizen. Empathize a little: if you came from a third-world country (which is basically what most of Mexico is), with a government that at worst suppressed and devalued its citizens and at best was fairly oblivious to the well-being of its lower classes and you wanted a better quality of life, do you (a) think you’d have access to becoming a legal citizen of another country provided to you by your government, or (b) care, or would you go there first and worry about settling all the legal aspects later?
I’m just all for everyone’s “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”. This country was founded on that principle. We’re just lucky the Native Americans didn’t have this bill in place.
i get the motivation behind wanting to come to the greatest country ever in existence... there is no debating that i would do the same... but at some point if you allow too much immigration you are infringing on the rights of the people already here...
immigration is great… but illegal immigration was deemed illegal for a reason… and it is not because a bunch of “racist” legislators were like, “hey we hate minorities so lets pass a law to keep them out”… no…. at some point if too many flood into our country it just displaces some of the poverty from their country to ours and affects american families in very real ways…
I don’t view illegal immigration as much of a crime
Do you view tax evasion as much of a crime?
Identity theft?
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yes, and I get that a lot of immigrants are doing those two things to survive here illegally
But I’m prone to look at WHY. Most of them are not illegal because they WANT to be illegal, because they WANT to evade taxes and because they WANT to steal someone’s ID. They do it because they have no alternative. They are not provided an up-front opportunity to become a legal citizen. They are too poor or misinformed — and are not welcomed — to go through the proper channels. They’d rather face those risks in America than go back to Mexico.
While I sympathize
I disagree that “They do it because they have no alternative.”
There is always an alternative to breaking the law.
You said it yourself there, “They’d rather face those risks in America than go back to Mexico”
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
I don't mean they literally have no alternative, and you obviously got that
So you’re just playing on semantics for the heck of it.
Don't brush it off as purely semantics - because I wasn't trying to be sarcastic
I understand that a lot of people in Mexico (and I lived in Mexico for two years) have the desires to better their lives and they feel they can do that here in the United States.
But they make the conscious decision to come here illegally – they plot and plan out their trek, they save and gamble all of their savings to try and make it here – they often destroy their own families back in Mexico or wherever by doing so.
Nobody is putting a gun to their heads down in Mexico and telling them they must illegally enter the USA. It is a cultural habit of those less fortunate in the poor areas of 2nd and 3rd world nations to idolize the life of working in the United States. Instead of looking to further their education or use their work skills to develop their own communities or find work in other parts of their own nation they choose the ‘easy way’ out by crossing the border to make dolares.
All sides of the immigration issue are at fault (U.S. employers, U.S and Latin American Politicians, etc.) and it will take the cooperation of all sides to fix the issue… that is a daunting task – but in the meantime what is illegal is definitely still illegal despite the aspirations and desires of those who seek work.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on May 4, 2010 4:41 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
very slippery slope there...
i’m sure most criminals could justify their crimes on some level but laws are in place for a reason and generally serve a just purpose
What gives that person the right to steal from someone else.
What happens to that person whose id was stolen. I am sure there are channels for them to go through. The system is slow for a reason. Imagine if it was a quick and easy process to to become a citizen,. We would have more problems than we could think. Not to mention all the security risks. The Arizona border is the number place where terrorists attempt to cross our border. Something has to be done.
by Suns Fan For Life on May 4, 2010 8:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Holy smokes, jburning
not much of a crime? How about putting the social assistance programs in financial ruin? This problem costs California alone over $10 billion a year.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
Even if they are citizens,
their tax status will not change vis a vis the schools until they own property. This is why you fund schools from the sales tax.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
Agree jburning. And in addition to the purely economic issues there are
also the issue of creating a precedent that can lead to abuse and deterioration of our civil liberties. This issue is a slippery slope as far as I am concerned. This is the way that civil liberties are eroded — in small steps. Although in some cases they’re eroded in large steps( such as what occured a couple of years ago with the Military Commissions Act striking the death knell for Habeas Corpus).
The majority of the people who have problems with this Bill are not in favor of allowing illegals in this country, rather, they see a whole host of problems with with the application, and then there are the repercussions, which represent the sort of slippery slope I mention above.
Maybe make the employers pay higher local taxes
in exchange for recruiting and hiring illegals.
QPU # 2.
Right on Suns!!
Wow, this is great – it makes me more proud to be a Suns fan.
fascism is not the answer to Arizona’s tough immigration issues …
GO LOS SUNS !!!
"The mustard is off the hot dog!"
facism aims to crush an opposing viewpoint through fear or intimidation...
and the only point being crushed through intimidation here is the viewpoint supporting the law…
I wasn't referring to the comments made here, but to the ideology implicit in the implementation of this law
fascism |ˈfa sh ˌizəm| (also Fascism)
noun
(in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice.
"The mustard is off the hot dog!"
Whichever of them you were referring to, the general use of “fascism” is wrong. Fascism was a form of European socialism practiced in Italy under Benito Mussolini and in Spain under Francisco Franco.
perhaps you missed
the dictionary definition I included in my post? I am aware of its historical roots.
"The mustard is off the hot dog!"
Can you give me a source? Dictionaries are usually too professional to put things like “right-wing” in their definitions.
maybe not the most reputable source
but I got the definition from the built in dictionary program that came with my computer, it was the second half of the definition – I would not make it up. Maybe I used the term “fascism” a bit flippantly, I didn’t really intend to imply that Nazis are behind the immigration bill. However, requiring that an entire ethnicity of people be required to carry papers at all times to prove they are legitimate citizens does have a familiar ring of some totalitarian regimes from recent history, imho.
"The mustard is off the hot dog!"
that is entirely false... you clearly have no idea what facism is and made up your own definition...
According to the dictionary – a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
Facism is far more leftist that rightest… a centralized autocratic government is what we are headed towards when we nationalize many of our social programs including healthcare…. conservatives are for the decrease of government and liberals are contstantly expanding it or centralizing power by placing it in the government
severe social regimentation... also a far left thing...
the liberals just passed a law in california that made selling happy meal toys illegal… that would be just one example recently of many of liberals infringing on social aspects of our lives that should be decided by the individual not a centralized authority… or the right to choose to buy healthcare would be another…
or the fact that the liberal media has only presented articles showing this law in a negative light...
how many articles have you read about the merits of this law or anything other than the same old rhetoric from celebrities and the papers… that seems a lot like a suppression of opposition…
Oxford English Dictionary
which is the most prestigious, standard dictionary out there, defines fascism as,
“any form of right-wing authoritarianism.”
Lol. But you’re right. Billy Hoyle tooooooootally made that up.
by iwasneveryoung on May 4, 2010 7:38 PM MDT up reply actions
that doesnt describe what it actually is... it only trys to imply that it is associated with a political group...
my definition which described commonly accepted characteristics of facism was from Merriam-Webster… also a very respected source…
“Lol. But you’re right. Billy Hoyle tooooooootally made that up.”
That’s cute.
Let's get this straight. The parties are reversed in Europe where Fascism started. Right is left, left is right. In that light, the Nazi's were a right party. Nuff said.
by Suns Fan For Life on May 4, 2010 8:20 PM MDT up reply actions
again you are just trying to associate a previous political party with a current one which isn't accurate, intelligent, or fair...
you need to look at what each party practiced and then try to align that with a right or left ideology…
a very common left ideology is for more government control, programs, and intervention into our lives which the Nazis also subscribed to…
if you are really honest with yourself you will see that the Nazis were far more left than right…
Steve Nash is the voice of God.
So that means God doesn’t like the bill.
I will be twice as proud to wear my 13 Nash shirt to game 5 (if there is a game 5, haha).
"The Nash abides."
I don't know about you, but I take comfort in that.
It's good to know he's out there, The Nash, taking 'er easy for all us sinners.
by RMason on May 4, 2010 3:03 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for satirically pointing out that Steve Nash is probably not the awe-inspiringly brilliant sage some of us make him out to be. He’s not a professional scholar; he’s an unusually thoughtful professional athlete, but professional sports is still a line of work where individuals are not particularly taught to stop and reflect on life outside their games.
Personally, I refuse to participate in political discussion on a non-political website other than to express disgust at it. I am here to discuss only basketball, and after this, I will laugh at all posts about this issue and scroll past them to the basketball posts.
Question
Will your head explode when Charles Barkley is elected governor of Alabama and we inevitably have that discussion?
Mine probably will!
by underxthebridge on May 4, 2010 3:11 PM MDT up reply actions
So what are your opinions on the issue?
"The Nash abides."
I don't know about you, but I take comfort in that.
It's good to know he's out there, The Nash, taking 'er easy for all us sinners.
I realize you’re only having fun, but nice try. I’m not about to disrespect the intended purpose of BSOS or to expose myself to any verbal abuse over politics. The last time I got some (not for even saying anything, but just because some people figured out what I think), it caused me to withdraw and generally refuse to talk wbout anything important with anyone. That was five years ago, and I’m only now starting to come out of my shell. I’m not going to be driven back into it for something as unimportant as an online discussion forum.
Of course that's understandable
We’re all here cause we are hopelessly loyal fans of the Phoenix Suns, which means we have enough angst without having to drop a big political turd in the proverbial punchbowl.
On the other hand, some of us drink way too much coffee and can’t help but comment on everything.
"The Nash abides."
I don't know about you, but I take comfort in that.
It's good to know he's out there, The Nash, taking 'er easy for all us sinners.
How about pulling a MacGruber
And dropping an upper decker?
by underxthebridge on May 4, 2010 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions
drunk?
I can be more incomprehensible than that. “So I says ‘Look, buddy. if you want th’ money, gum over an’ take it. Cause I don’t know where it is, you BALONEY! You mage me wanna RETCH…”
Haha no
Just keying in on the idea of dropping a turd. The reference is from that MacGruber movie coming out, in the trailer he talks about dropping an upper decker in the master bathroom. He goes on to explain an “upper decker” is when you drop your turd in the tank and not the bowl. :P
by underxthebridge on May 4, 2010 3:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Good, I didn’t think anyone would not understand. ANother thing is, besides keeping my political opinions elsewhere (on blogs that either belong to me or are dedicated to politics), I tend not to bother commenting on current issues where the positions are already very well-established. I have little to learn and usually nothing to say that hasn’t been said.
Not in an inappropriate place such as a sports forum. And cut me some slack—I’m an anxiety sufferer, and it made the verbal abuse get into my head more easily.
well it is appropriate now because there have been two posts on it in the last few hours...
I’m not saying you need to be on the frontlines arguing with irrational people but if you have valid points people would benefit to hear them…
Sorry, I’m just here for basketball. I’m waiting to see if anyone commented on my opinion (in that first postgame thread) that Alvin Gentry is a better coach than Mike D’Antoni.
he is without a doubt better than D'Antoni...
the players have a mental edge unlike any that they ever had under D’Antoni… D’Antoni has a good system but is a horrible game to game… personality to personality manager…
Gentry has also somehow gotten it into their heads that rebounding and D win games…
Yes, and just for that, he should get a parade this summer. Not even the players, whether they win a title or not—him. He made the Suns built for the playoffs.
he also has a calming influence on players that can tend to panic in certain situations...
honestly behind skiles and sloan… gentry was the best coach this year…
Sloan is my pick for best coach in NBA history, because he is the best ever at getting a lot out of a little (sometimes very little), at maximizing the performance of teams that have only a few good and sometimes great players with a lot of marginal role players. But he didn’t really do his best job this year. I’ll change my opinionhf he makes his Jazz upset the Fakers.
I know, can't help myself.
"The Nash abides."
I don't know about you, but I take comfort in that.
It's good to know he's out there, The Nash, taking 'er easy for all us sinners.
Quit bein a knucklehead!
Haha too easy
by underxthebridge on May 4, 2010 3:18 PM MDT up reply actions
If Chuck were elected governor of Alabama
then I will not have to listen to his sorry 400 lb ass on TNT, and that, folks is a good thing.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
My opinion =
More laws = bigger government = bad idea.
Illegal Immigration = Is already Illegal
More laws to enforce already standing laws as a political statement = waste of time = even worse idea.
Maybe the local government could spend some time figuring out how to keep city jobs (i.e. the police force especially) instead of piling more responsibilities on the already short handed. Even the police chief disagrees with the law.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on May 4, 2010 3:31 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
It's kind of like a law to prohibit texting while driving
You can already be cited for reckless endangerment. If we need a law to say no texting while driving, don’t we also need one to say no reading? No watching movies? No putting on makeup? So on and so forth. Generally not a good thing when you have to spell out every possible distraction…
by underxthebridge on May 4, 2010 3:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Poor choice of a subject on that reply
Was really just addressing the idea of more laws.
by underxthebridge on May 4, 2010 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions
My point exactly. I'm a Barry Goldwater fan.
Do I think illegal immigration is a HUGE problem? Hecks yes. But address the real problem. Start with the legal immigration process because ITS TURRRIBLE.
I mean deporting illegals has worked so well with our swiss cheese border since they stay in their country once deported right? Giving the local boys the power to nab them now doesn’t fix that problem – it will only exploit it more.
I don’t buy into the whole racial profiling argument – to me that is pointless. I could care less if the local police can now stop me and ask me to produce documentation of citizenship – I lived in Mexico for an extended period of time and every time the police saw me they would ask me to do the same (White dude sticks out like a sore thumb in the bush country of Chiapas). Was it racial profiling? Probably! Did I care? NO. I showed them my passport and visa and they’d try to bum money to buy coronas and that was that.
My beef with the law is that it really is a bunch of political palaver spewed by state politicians who are feeling the heat of the kitchen fire they haven’t been able to put out. Don’t worry about reelection if you can’t efficiently fix the problems you’ve been given… remember the budget for one?
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
My beef with the law is that it really is a bunch of political palaver spewed by state politicians who are feeling the heat of the kitchen fire they haven’t been able to put out. Don’t worry about reelection if you can’t efficiently fix the problems you’ve been given… remember the budget for one?
QFT
by underxthebridge on May 4, 2010 4:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Again, though
Welcome to politics in America, where politicians are more concerned with lighting fires based on talking points with the intent of rallying their constituents solely to further their political careers. And the major media outlets are right there behind them, pushing for ratings over information.
Instead of, oh, I don’t know, treating the job as a public service.
This is why I love Adam Carolla so much. His rants on this are amazing.
by underxthebridge on May 4, 2010 4:52 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
www.adamcarolla.com
He’s podcasting now, not on the radio anywhere. Highly recommend listening in!
by underxthebridge on May 4, 2010 4:57 PM MDT up reply actions
I like your style -
If Thomas Jefferson listened to Sports620 he’d say that he would “projectile vomit all over nearly every American politician and their aspirations to power”
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
by Eutychus on May 4, 2010 5:06 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
this is why i hate when people associate themselves with a political party and then change their views based on their party views rather than form their opinions and then vote for somebody...
I am 25, have voted twice, and have voted third party each time because i refuse to get caught up in politics as usual…
A great night...
and start to a series ruined by uninformed leftists. ILLEGAL means illegal. the law is fair and in no way racist. Very dissapointed and will have my seats be empty tonight as a result.
Would you be willing to share your wealth with the less fortunate and donate your seats to me?
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Won't all the seats be empty tonight?
They don’t play again until Wednesday. Even I, as an “uninformed leftist” know that.
....touche
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
I think this is in reply to my post
Can’t tell with the staggering. If it is I regret to inform you that I have read the bill a few times. And I stand by my statement of there being nothing racist about it. There is no race mentioned actually. It does state that it is illegal to be here illegaly. Interesting concept no?
Reasonable Suspicion
That is the language in the bill your looking for, unprecedented in law enforcement for a citizen or illegal to be identified this way. Aimed at Hispanics and Latino born people, citizens or not. I know, why would that be racist right? To single out people who look illegal??
You are just grasping at straws here... reasonable suspicion is your big arguing point... it the suspicion is reasonable what is your beef with it...
“20 B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON.”
if an officer does something based on unreasonable suspicion then THE OFFICER is in violation of the law...
that seems very fair to me in an area where judgement calls have to be made…
not my job... that is up to the state courts of arizona and potentially the supreme court of the USA...
but we can all agree that someone that is reasonable is something to be strived for…
I just find the whole thing very odd
When they asked Brewer what “reasonable suspicion” was, she didn’t know the answer.
When they asked her what an illegal looked like, she didn’t know the answer.
If she doesn’t know, how should the police know?
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
by rsavaj on May 4, 2010 9:11 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Jan Brewer
is way over her head. She’s totally under-qualified to be holding office. Can’t wait to vote her out.
Are you kidding?
She has to deal with the aftermath of that moron Big Sister.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
I can't wait to vote against Brewer either
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
That's a cop-out and that's not true
You individually are charged with the right and abilitiy to sue if you see a cop standing next to someone you suspect is here illegally and who does nothing about it.
So define “reasonable suspicion” and I venture that It can’t be done without racial profiling or stereotyping that unfairly impacts on one class of citizens (US citizens of Hispanic descent) in an attempt to find people here illegally. One thing to remember about search and seizure law under the constitution is that probable cause has to be individualized to a particular suspect and reasonably related to the crime being investigated. Speaking spanish and looking Mexican are not of themselves evidence of any crime, and without more would constitute an illegal search and seizure.
Also know that government entities are civilly liable under federal law title 42 USC sec. 1983 for violating federal constitutional rights. So if a US Citizen gets detained to show papers on so called reasonable suspicion, and then is arrested because he forgot his wallet on his way to the 7-11 to get a Slushee, his 4th Amendment rights are violated as are his equal protection rights because a class of citizens are unfairly and deliberately impacted by the AZ law, and he sues the police. If the police don’t detain and arrest that guy, you can sue the police. The police are in an impossible situation, as are US citizens of Hispanic origin.
It’s a dumb law targeted at hispanics that conjure images of WWII movies of SS soldiers “Can we see your papers?”
QPU # 2.
by margabelle on May 4, 2010 9:47 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Bravo.
Very well put. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
by iwasneveryoung on May 4, 2010 9:49 PM MDT up reply actions
for what reason?
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
the law makes an illegal practice illegal and allows law enforcement officers a way to enforce those laws… but i am glad you will root for the suns now that some celebrities have spoken out in a very biased way against this law…
"reasonable suspicion" that someone is here illegally
If you were a cop, what would be a reasonable suspicion for you to pull someone over and approach them to ask to see their papers?
QPU # 2.
maybe....
their license plate says “Mexico” on it?
TO THE NBA - " Yeah, you have created a rift within me ; Now there have been ; several complications ; that have left me feeling nothing ; I might say, you were ; wrong to take it from me ; Left me feeling nothing " - Disturbed, "Numb"
I kid... I kiddd...
but seriously.
TO THE NBA - " Yeah, you have created a rift within me ; Now there have been ; several complications ; that have left me feeling nothing ; I might say, you were ; wrong to take it from me ; Left me feeling nothing " - Disturbed, "Numb"
from text
FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES…
That part and giving the right of citizens to sue and collect attorney fees from municipalites if the cops don’t enforce this law when they are subject to atty fees from the other side if they violate the constitution will bankrupt municipalities.
QPU # 2.
Depends on what you're talking about.
Police have to have reasonable suspicion to ask to see ID.
Police have to have probable cause to arrest.
Pwned!
You keep cherry picking the sections that fit your argument and refuse to look at the glaring omission you’ve purposely made.
ive posted more actual content from the law than everyone else combined...
of course i am not going to post the trivial parts of the law…
An obvioius one
Would be someone that is unable to speak or understand english. From your post I will assume that you don’t live here, forgive me if I assume incorrectly, and therefore don’t really know/understand the problem that we have with ILLEGAL immigration.
Every citizen of Puerto Rico is a US citizen
An island of 4 million people whose primary language is Spanish.
QPU # 2.
Does pig latin count?
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
that is why
I said speak or understand. If you can’t understand the language here then yes that is probable cause. If I am driving late at night and my eyes are bloodshot that is probable cause for a police officer to do a field test on me. I don’t drink, but the officer would be 100% correct in issuing that field test. Same here, if the individual can’t speak or understand English there is probable cause they are illegal and need to prove citizenship.
But why can't english be the legal language.
We are one of only a few countries in the world that do not have and official language. To live here and not know the language says to me that you only want the benfits of living in america without any of the responsibilities.
by Suns Fan For Life on May 4, 2010 8:28 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because this country is the most diverse country in the world!
That’s what makes it so amazing.
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
You're blaming our economic troubles on our cultural diversity?
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Dude
It is simple mathematics, my friend. The social systems are broken. We simply do not have the money to pay for those who are not paying into the system.
Cultural diversity? You’ve got to be kidding. It has nothing to do with cultural diversity whatsoever.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
"You've got to be kidding"
I’m just going off what you said.
I said this country is the most diverse country in the world, and that’s what makes it so amazing.
You added “and broke.”
There’s an implication there, even if you didn’t mean it.
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Playing Devil's Advocate
We simply do not have the money to pay for those who are not paying into the system.
So then, you also agree that we never should have started spending money in Iraq, right? Surely the poor people there whose country we have been rebuilding at the expense of American tax dollars have not paid into our system in turn.
by underxthebridge on May 5, 2010 12:06 PM MDT up reply actions
that's largely a move to benefit American citizens
global stability is a benefit to our citizens
you can argue about whether it’s money well spent, but you can do that about every US government program
Mmmmm ... Guinness
you can argue about whether it’s money well spent, but you can do that about every US government program
That’s kind of my point. There’s a lot of areas of our government’s budget that, over the last 10+ years, could do to be trimmed down.
Welfare is welfare, whether we’re paying poor people here or poor people in other countries. Are we stabilizing Iraq? Sure, but that wasn’t the initial tagline. If we’re going to spend, why not stabilize the rest of the middle East too?
See what I’m getting at? Like I said, playing Devil’s Advocate :P
by underxthebridge on May 5, 2010 1:42 PM MDT up reply actions
not really "Devil's Advocate"
Surely the poor people there whose country we have been rebuilding at the expense of American tax dollars have not paid into our system in turn.
This statement implies the money was spent for the benefit of the Iraqi people. I’m saying that’s not why it was spent.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
I know...
You’re saying it was spent for global stability. I think that’s just a tag line. How much safer are we having stabilized a country that posed no threat to begin with? If there indeed had been WMDs, you’d be spot on.
But there weren’t, so we’re really not. Would have been better spent trying to work over Iran. Or maybe finishing the job in Afghanistan to begin with.
by underxthebridge on May 5, 2010 2:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Instead
We’re left with a money sink while more serious threats still exist elsewhere.
by underxthebridge on May 5, 2010 2:30 PM MDT up reply actions
WMDs and precursors
have been documented
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
Documented WMDs?
Try again, the CIA concluded there were none in Iraq.
But we’re getting beside the point, my point here is that both of the major political parties have been wasteful with our tax dollars.
#VoteLibertarian
by underxthebridge on May 5, 2010 5:41 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't care if you think it's a "tag line"
That’s arguing the merits of the expenditure. You claim to be playing “Devil’s Advocate” by posturing that the money spent overseas does not come from the persons overseas.
It’s a variation on a straw man argument because no one can argue that Iraqis don’t make payments to the IRS. In a non sequitor, you then move on to argue your policy position on Iraq.
Mmmmm ... Guinness
Clearly you're not getting this
I played “Devil’s Advocate” by inserting the notion that our tax dollars are not only spent on poor people here, but also poor people in other countries. And that, as with illegals here (some of whom contribute via sales tax just like I’m sure some there contribute in some fashion), the majority do not. The net result is a budget deficit for us. That’s my money, and your money.
Really, it’s that hard to understand that?
You’ve done nothing to dispute that except argue the notion that the money spent in Iraq made us safer, and thus was really spent on American citizens. Cool. Our tax money spent on illegals also makes us safer because they are less likely to commit identity theft. That’s just as absurd.
For the record, I don’t agree with welfare in any way, shape or form.
by underxthebridge on May 5, 2010 5:40 PM MDT up reply actions
The United States of America
Have NO official language.
by bmxican on May 4, 2010 4:45 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
True.
Which is why there’s nothing wrong with not knowing English. There’s also nothing wrong, at least legally, with me yelling out my window, “HEY! I’M AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT!” Neither one actually proves I’m here illegally. But either one might at least be a factor that contributes to reasonable suspicion that I’m here illegally.
they have a list of objective criteria they are suppose to go by that have nothing to do with race...
and they probably should incorporate race in order to determine who is illegal because lets be honest here guys 99.9% of people illegally immigrating from Mexico are Mexicans… i mean obviously they aren’t going to need to check an 80-year old asian woman at random because they are probably not mexican immigrants…
Chino Banditos FTW
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Better than Fili-b's?
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Fili-Bs is great for a quick fix
But Popo’s is a great sit-down Mexican.
At times in my life, I’ve contemplated moving out of Arizona, but I don’t think I could move away from the food. I went to New Jersey once and couldn’t find a Mexican food restaurant to save my life. It’s like they’d never heard of a pinto bean before.
Oh, the Arizona burrito from Filibertos...
..with loads of salsa, heavenly even though it takes me 30 mins to finish one.
I'm a green chile burro man myself
Or 5 rolled tacos and guac if I’m feeling crunchy.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
I generally get the carne asada burrito, if it's lunch/dinner
if it’s breakfast, it’s a chorizo/egg burrito or red menudo.
Ive tried the carne asada burrito but I feel it didnt have the same impact of that first bite when you dig into an arizona burrito when your hunger is at a peak,
My wife is Mexican (Don't worry, guys ... she's legal!)
And there’s always a great flow of tasty food around the family.
see that really is the problem... people think that at random people are just going to be stripped searched and beaten...
officers can ONLY question someone with reasonable suspicion and probable cause…
Does she know how to cook that shrimp stuff, I forget what its called but its got shrimp,green chillis,onions,tomatoes with lemon and I dont know what else but I had it once and I have asked every Latino friend I know and they think say shrimp cocktail even though I dont think thats it.
I like all the little
burrito shops that are like the size of a bathroom. Filiberto’s was one I liked when I lived there, couple, the last time I was in phoenix I ate at “two hippy’s taco shop” I think that’s what it was called, not authentic by any means but really casual, fresh organic ingredients, and not pricey at all. good stuff.
I am a Law student studying at ASU from India so my opinion does not hold much water. The perception of how this bill which when turns into law will bring about racial profiling seems to be over exaggerated. Bad apples may happen in the police dept (I come from a country which has one of highest corruption rates in the world) but if you are driving drunk, running red lights, speeding, driving with a broken tail light in the least, then the police has every right to stop you legal or illegal.
by atkammoh on May 4, 2010 4:31 PM MDT reply actions 6 recs
How is this rec'd so many times?
“if you are driving drunk, running red lights, speeding, driving with a broken tail light in the least, then the police has every right to stop you legal or illegal.”
No shit! That has nothing to do with what anyone is talking about. No one is arguing that illegal immigrants should be able to run red lights. Haha.
by iwasneveryoung on May 5, 2010 11:52 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Getting back to basketball...
I really hope this doesn’t have a negative effect tomorrow night. I would be really disappointed if Nash got booed or something. The last thing we need is to be divided on our own home court.
by bmxican on May 4, 2010 4:35 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
a really interesting point.
but I don’t think it’ll have an impact in the end. Suns fans are just that- Suns fans.
Crashing the [message] boards from the heart of Spurs Nation, San Antonio, Texas. GO SUNS!
gruntledpainter on Twitter
I said I wouldn't engage in this discussion
But I ended up engaging in it a lot. Oh well … everyone was pretty civil about it, so that’s a change of pace.
yeah i think it is a lot of splitting hairs honestly... and in each individuals interpretation of reasonable suspicion and probable cause...
no one wants corrupt law enforcement
tl;dr
the comments, not the article. Good article, Seth! Would have loved to see comments disabled on this though.
Crashing the [message] boards from the heart of Spurs Nation, San Antonio, Texas. GO SUNS!
gruntledpainter on Twitter
LOL! Steve Nash threw a monkey wrench
into the Sun’s playoff run — by pulling the scab off a wound inflicted by right-wing Arizona politicians.
Nash is a liberally minded person as well as the leader on a team with mostly players who are ethic minorities, just like most NBA teams.
Not everyone agrees with J.D. Haywire. Get used to it
And you live
in a state that has aproximately 70% support for this bill. Get used to it.
here's the question though
regardless of what side we’re on…will this
a. motivate the suns team
b. be a distraction
c. nothing
I’d guess it’s not c
Don’t have a clue yet if a or b will be the answer…
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
At least it brought the issue up on a national page, which I believe is the entire intention of the bill. Ignoring the issue for so long will turn it into an epidemic. (Wrong wording in this case since its people we are dealing with and it sounds inhumane)
Yeah, right
the people in many other states are calling for this type of bill
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
people in dallas still love nash
when filming weddings, I often mention I’m a suns fan and 9 out of 10 times the following is said (or something like it)
“What’s that player’s name….oh…Nash….I like him!!”
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
this debate / argument over this law is interesting,
I’m learning some things…but a part of why Az made this law was because of the rising drug problem from Mexico. And the drugs being brought into Az.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
which is problem of porous border
and not of illegal immigration, though porous border doesn’t “help” with problem of illegal immigration.
Illegal immigration is in no way cause of rising drug problem.
fix the border and
and both problems are gone.
Any law that polarize citizens by skin color is simply racist at its core no matters how much we dance about it.
by evnara on May 4, 2010 6:14 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
agreed... but again common sense can't be thrown away for the sake of political correctness...
most illegals in Arizona are non-English speaking Mexicans who fit some other set of objective criteria as well so I think it would be wise to focus on these people the most… not racist… just common sense…
it is kinda how i think it is ridiculous my 50-year old, 5ft, 260lb aunt got pulled aside and searched at the airport when I, even as a white male, would be ten times more likely to bomb a plane… PCness can really kill effectiveness, eat up tax dollars, and even cost lives when really important things ar eat stake…
boy
your really missing it. So the people bringing drugs into az from mexico are all 100% legal! I doubt that.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
it doesn't matter if
drug traffickers/dealers are citizens or not, their destination should be only one: JAIL.
Unless you’re suggesting great many immigrants bring drugs, immigration has nothing to do with drug trafficking.
This is a distraction
I am against the bill, and I applauded wearing “Los Suns” as a showing of solidarity with latinos and latinoamericans on this (not widely celebrated) Mexican holiday. That was until everybody started flapping their mouths about it.
However accurate or at least respectable a person’s opinion may be, the problem with expressing it is that the person is drawn back into experiencing others’ reaction to it. This is particularly true when taking a stand on a divisive issue. It freaks me out to think Nash might be writing blog comments supporting his position instead of focusing on how to get 20 assists in game 2. Clearly this concern can extend to everyone in the Suns organization, who are now on the hook for publicly denouncing the law.
No, I was not in "Necessary Roughness"
Maybe
when all the NBA players protest on “NBA cares” commercials that more importantly than basketball, they have the responsibility to be citizens of the world, Steven Nash is one that isn’t lying. Maybe basketball actually isn’t as important to him as standing up for human rights. It shouldn’t be. It may be a distraction, but I think it’s kinda selfish for you to say, “Don’t voice your opinion Steve Nash! Just practice basketball more for my enjoyment!”
by iwasneveryoung on May 4, 2010 7:53 PM MDT up reply actions
Los Suns marketing department = Los Morons
I just want to say that because I don’t like kitsch, the “Los Suns” uniforms will make me more likely to listen to the games on the radio. And I’m very skeptical of how many more Latino viewers the Suns expect to gain. Discerning Latino viewers, anyway. Such a viewer is more likely to see the uniforms and think the Suns’ management learned its Spanish by listening to Bumblebee Man on The Simpsons, thinking “skunk” is “un gato malodoro” and “what a shame” is “que lastima.”
Agree with the two points above, total marketing ploy. I could just imagine the Suns marketing department eyes light up about milking this Los Suns opportunity after the bill was signed. It does sound shallow minded to think that our beloved Suns would exploit something as serious as this issue but the team is a business after all.
I also don’t think any sponsor is going to cut ties off because the organization took a stand, withdraw sponsorship on the most entertaining team in the NBA, yeah right!
not disagreeing at all, but for an uninformed gringo i thought bmxican made an interesting point in the other thread that kinda got buried
Copied in on my Droid so forgive the lack of quoted text. He said:
I was just reading some of the comments on the ESPN board…
… and thought I would point out that it is perfectly "acceptable" to only put the "los" and not "soles" (suns in Spanish). It’s pretty common in Spanish speaking countries to use the definite article followed by the word in question in English. As a Spanish speaker I think "Los Soles" would look and sound silly.
I will avoid commenting on the political motivation behind this, but I do think it is worth pointing out that, as I’m sure most of you know, this is not the first time the organization has done this.
by underxthebridge on May 4, 2010 6:56 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
that is im the uninformed gringo, ha
by underxthebridge on May 4, 2010 6:57 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
last time I checked
the national language and only national language is english
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
there is not actual national language but the de facto language is english...
about 30 states have english as their official language however, including Arizona…
lol
What does that have to do with whether or not Los Suns is an appropriate translation?
The national language part just makes it funny.
by underxthebridge on May 4, 2010 8:09 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
the point is simple
I follow the suns, I speak english, so do the suns. The suns have very little to do with the Hispanic / Mexican culture and are using this for their benefit. And if we win the title this year, instead of being excited about it (which I still will be somewhat) All I’ll remember is this law and the arguments
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
thats fine and dandy
I agree for the most part, but that has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Los Suns is acceptable vernacular. That’s all my reply was addressing.
by underxthebridge on May 4, 2010 8:17 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
your right
i jumped in “in reply mode” when I shouldn’t have
side not…I love this song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tqgwnv0HCk8
Black is Black by Los Bravos :-)
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
nah... don't get that upset about this jason...
it is a very good thing that people are debating about something that is important and effects lives… seperate the adult stuff(politics) from the fun stuff(suns basketball)
your right
it’s just I’m from phoenix (30 + years), but live in dallas, and I’m hearing a lot of negative stuff about Az from here. It bothers me because I love Az. Az isn’t perfect, but I love it.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
from here - meaning dallas radio
etc…didn’t mean this blog….kind of the nice unifying point, I think we all like the suns…lol
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
The only thing this issue is doing now is dividing the Phoenix fans...
The timing of this declaration is not good…We need to be united against the Evil Spurs empire….
I don’t care what side of the aisle you are on..We need to come together to push our tyeram forward…
"The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can and slap the crap out of him before he figures out you are there...."
- me into a mental stupor after forgetting the rest of Ulysses S. Grant's speech....
maybe nash wants to change the name of brightsideofthesun to
el lado brillante del sol
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
Well, that was fun
now wasn’t it?
moving on…will have an actually practice report posted soon. Delay only caused by busy afternoon schedule and a quick nap
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
did you guys see this...too many comments not enough time to read them right now
i did a search on yahoo word…didn’t see anyone putting the link up
current main yahoo.com webpage – story about suns with the below link
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Suns-will-wear-Los-Suns-unis-to-honor-Phoenix-?urn=nba,238682
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
not trolling at all...
you only have that to fall back on because i have made actual points and you can only call me names…
by Superelkman on May 4, 2010 8:00 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
nice comment superelkman
iwasneververyoung, nothing to say here…not going to flame the fire, your actions and words speak for themselves..maybe you should go with the cops in phoenix for 4-5 rides and see what you don’t know
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
You're
cruising up and down this forum trying to find people to argue with. I didn’t mean any harm, but is that not trolling? Is that not what you’re doing? It’s just kinda funny to me.
by iwasneveryoung on May 4, 2010 8:14 PM MDT up reply actions
We may not agree with Superelkman...
But he is a Suns fan and we respect him..who the heck are you….????
"The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can and slap the crap out of him before he figures out you are there...."
- me into a mental stupor after forgetting the rest of Ulysses S. Grant's speech....
by Daryl Ray on May 4, 2010 8:02 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
yep
there’s talk then there’s baiting and name calling
“i was never….” was not talking
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
I don't care to discuss politics on a basketball forum.
I’m just a Suns fan who thinks this is kinda funny. I respect Superelkman’s opinions just as much as anyone else, but it’s just kind of funny to see someone comment on almost every post, providing the same right-wing argument every time, with…what intention? To argue with someone else’s opinions? That’s what trolling is, right? I wasn’t trying to be a dick or anything. I just thought it was kinda funny.
SORRRRRRRY.
by iwasneveryoung on May 4, 2010 8:11 PM MDT up reply actions
on trolling
I’d say it’s being incredibly rude just to get a rise out of people instead of talking basketball..
I’m not sure I’d say you were trolling, I just think opinions on this are strong. It seems as if the treatment of legal immigrants in Az could be protected under this new law, many many people wouldn’t be so upset? Can a state law wording be amended easily and quickly? I’d guess yes.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
You have conceded all the points that I hear right-wing people repeatedly say. That’s all I meant. Don’t get so upset man, I was just joking around.
by iwasneveryoung on May 4, 2010 8:26 PM MDT up reply actions
also... when a political article is posted and nash and sarver both make comments on this of course we are going to comment on it...
dont be such a child… everyone else is arguing just fine even if this disagree… this is the type of stuff that makes this country great because there is an open exchange of ideas and opinions and we collectively can decide on things within the framework of the constitution…
No one came here today to argue about this bill.
Obviously you feel like it’s important to argue with people about it. That’s cool, whatever. I apologize if I offended you.
by iwasneveryoung on May 4, 2010 8:30 PM MDT up reply actions
trolling is going to different websites looking to upset the applecart
Considering that you joined directly after the Suns finished off the Blazers, there is a possibility that the troll may be lurking under your bridge….
We can argue without calling names or tyring to marginalize your adversary with trite comments…(i.e. Right wing nut, Left wing wacko…)
I am so sick of the Left wing koolaid vs. Right wing tea mentality that our country is immersed in…it’s dragging us down to the pit of division. Let’s have some civil dialoge. Just cuz’ someone doesn’t think the way you do, doesn’t mean they are the devil…
"The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can and slap the crap out of him before he figures out you are there...."
- me into a mental stupor after forgetting the rest of Ulysses S. Grant's speech....
by Daryl Ray on May 4, 2010 8:29 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
sun god
nice points on the “left wing / right wing name calling”. It didn’t strike me as stirring things up until i read your comment. Then it definitely comes across differently…negatively..
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
I joined before that series, just so you know. I've been a Suns fan my whole life.
I couldn’t agree with you more. I wasn’t trying to use “right-wing” as an insult or with any other negative connotation. I just used it to categorize the types of arguments that Superelkman was forming.
And I didn’t say “right-wing nut.” That would be different. I couldn’t agree with you more. But you took my usage of “right-wing” out of context, to try and pin me as being disrespectful about it. Like I said, I was just using it to categorize his arguments.
by iwasneveryoung on May 4, 2010 8:37 PM MDT up reply actions
Look man, I apologize if I offended you.
I think this bill is definitely misguided. I think you’d have to be very ignorant to believe that “reasonable suspicion” is not going to lead to blatant racial profiling. I think that deporting all of the illegal immigrants is not a good idea anyway. I think it will harm our state (I was born and raised in AZ, I go to school in Washington right now, but I still think of Arizona as my home) in a number of ways. Obviously immigration is an issue, and it seems obvious to me that this is a pretty twisted attempt at a solution.
But what good are my opinions to you? You already have your mind made up. similar to what Jburning said above, I am just as passionate about my political beliefs as the next guy, but I hate debating them. Especially on the internet. Because it just turns into a massive argument, and endless:
“I believe this will happen!”
“But I think this will happen!”
“No! You’re wrong, cause this will happen!”
“But I believe this!”
etc. etc. etc.
That’s what I saw happening in this forum. Every time someone said they disagreed with the bill, and shared their opinion, you seemed to want to pick a fight with them about it. Why would I want to be another guy you wanted to argue with? I just thought that was kind of funny. But I didn’t mean to offend, in hindsight I probably shouldn’t have said anything, and I apologize.
by iwasneveryoung on May 4, 2010 8:59 PM MDT up reply actions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXlBSlyU8xY
This is what is great about sports. It’s not about any of this shit. I just found it ironic that a sports forum was causing so many people to argue.
by iwasneveryoung on May 4, 2010 9:05 PM MDT up reply actions
I know it’s relevant because of the Suns’ actions, but still.
by iwasneveryoung on May 4, 2010 9:27 PM MDT up reply actions
SO a Canuck feels he has the right to protest American law when he has no skin in the game? A bit like the illegal aliens protesting against the law… sad and yet laughable coming from a Canucklehead…
Hard work beats talent when talent is hardly working...
I support it.
I’m happy to see the Suns organization use their platform to express their views. Of course, the tactic is partially influenced by smart marketing. I think it’s important to empathize with Hispanics though. Law or no law, just because they live in another country doesn’t keep them from being human beings. You’d do the same if you were in an identical situation.
by huffgarr on May 4, 2010 8:01 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
never said they weren't human beings
not sure who your grabbing that from? And the comment “You’d do the same if you were in an identical situation”…that’s not necessarily true. Here’s the problem I have with so many people being upset about the law, no police have yet broken the law or abused legal people’s rights because of this law. It just came out. Let’s verify there’s abuse first before screaming fire.
And the idea of controlling illegal immigrants and the border is the correct idea, just need some tweaking on the wording and methods.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
?
I didn’t quote anybody verbally degrading them as not being human, but they are certainly being treated like that.
Would you rather allow your family to suffer or risk sneaking into a country to provide for your family? Nobody has abused this law because it hasn’t been implemented yet. That won’t happen for another couple months.
Do to others what you would have them do to you (Matthew 7:12)
In Iran there are 3 US citizens currently on trial for illegally entering that country. They were detained near an unmarked border which they may or may not have crossed.
The exact same thing happens in North Korea on a regular basis.
But hey, what a foreign country does to US citizens is none of our business right?
Why wouldn’t we want to copy those countries?
If a tourist visits the United States and spends thousands of dollars helping the economy in the process but fails to leave on their last day because of (a) An Airline strike, (b) A volcanic ash cloud or © the crappy US airline they mistakenly chose to fly with files for bankrupcy, then they will be an illegal immigrant subject to prosecution.
All it takes is for them to inappropriately express their frustration in the presence of law enforcement and you can say goodbye to a tourism industry which currently generates $1.3 trillion of renenue and employs 8 million people (in 2009 according to Ibisworld). You think we have an economic depression now….
Well we've had politics, now we might as well toss in religion...
Anybody else have anuy taboo subjects they want to instigate with???
"The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can and slap the crap out of him before he figures out you are there...."
- me into a mental stupor after forgetting the rest of Ulysses S. Grant's speech....
Hey buddy,
to put it in your own words, “We can argue without calling names or trying to marginalize your adversary with trite comments.”
by iwasneveryoung on May 4, 2010 9:28 PM MDT up reply actions
Huh????????
"The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can and slap the crap out of him before he figures out you are there...."
- me into a mental stupor after forgetting the rest of Ulysses S. Grant's speech....
sun god
I think what he is trying to say is that you seem to have completely missed the point of my post and seized upon the title (I am an atheist by the way but I still respect the bible as a source of wizdom) as an excuse to demean it.
Exactly.
I just think it’s funny that you thought my using the phrase “right-wing” was insulting and offensive and trite, and then you say something like “Well we’ve had politics, now we might as well toss in religion… Anybody else have any taboo subjects they want to instigate with???” especially when his post really had nothing to do with religion.
by iwasneveryoung on May 4, 2010 9:38 PM MDT up reply actions
If someone illegally enters one of htose countries, whether a US citizen or not, they should be sent back to the US...
If someone is held in a country for an extra amount of time that isn’t being there illegally… the countries will offer extensions and exceptions to those rules and then we will be sent back here… either way the illegal person should be sent back to where they came from…
send them back...
Dude, obviously you didn’t notice those 3 hikers were detained in July 2009 and our negotiations with Iran are not exactly going smoothly….
is your point that
this Az law is drifting towards the possible handling of illegals in a similar fashion?
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
on one issue
I don’t think handling illegal immigrants has to be so black and white, I think some countries way over due, and some do nothing. I think it’s time America stopped being the “do close to nothing” country, but in no way do I want any illegal immigrants treated like prisoners,
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
Don't flatter yourself
You haven’t “shocked” anyone. All you’ve done is irritate us and waste your time by arguing every post with with you disagree. Oh, and you haven’t changed one mind.
by East Bay Ray on May 4, 2010 9:55 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Consider supposedly 70% of people in AZ approve of this bill
Supporting it is the “mainstream” viewpoint.
by jburning on May 5, 2010 9:41 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
70% of the legal inhabitants, anyway
How many illegals do you suppose decided not to be included in the polling?
Haha, uh,
Probably not many, because…since the bill involves shipping them to Mexico, I’m pretty sure they participated in the polling as much as possible.
by iwasneveryoung on May 5, 2010 11:55 PM MDT up reply actions
Kudos to Nash for not being afraid to give his opinion.
Personally I’m divided on the law, I don’t think that most cops would racially profile people, but the chance that it could happen does scare me. I do think that something had to be done though, maybe this will get Congress to finally create an Immigration law that works.
Lifelong Arizona Cardinals/Chicago Bears fan.
I can't stand fair-weather/bandwagon fans, stick with your team, throughout the good and the bad.
What does this say about the Phoenix Suns organization?
Forget the detailed policy talk about the law here. This is not the forum for that. But this is the forum to discuss what this move says about the Suns organization. It appears to mean that Steve Nash wields lots of power, as he seems to be the driving force behind it. Nash’s leadership has never seriously been questioned, and I have never heard of teammate’s disliking him, but I have to wonder if all of his teammates agree with him that A.) they are opposed to the law and B.) they should make this kind of statement when their entire focus should be on beating the Spurs, an opponent that has tormented them over the last 7 years. Not saying I suspect there is resentment towards Nash, but I wonder.
My suspicion is that Nash, perhaps joined by others, saw what was happening nationally with the firestorm over this law, the way there is talk about the MLB All-Star game being pulled from Phoenix, etc, and wanted to let the nation know that just because they are from Phoenix, they still disagree with the law.
I think it’s pretty clear that the politics of the state of Arizona and the politics of Nash don’t make a good fit. It will be interesting to see if this move in any way diminishes fan appreciation for him. I certainly hope not.
it's a good question at the end
will Steve Nash’s appreciation from fans diminish? I think it’ll only grow.
Also, I treat athletes like rock stars and movie stars. Love them for what they deliver but not for everything they say or believe automatically.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
This came from Sarver
it was his idea which Nash confirmed….the players (all of them) approved it and the timing. Nash just happened to talk more about it today while I was around. If you click those other links you will see plenty of others talking about it as well. Suns and Spurs.
Popovich in fact had a lot to say. He called the AZ law an knee-jerk reaction to a legitimate problem and equated to the Patriot Act in that it “changes our Country and what we stand for.”
This one story is about Nash b/c he’s a Sun and he was available and spoke about and hour and half before the Spurs did. Nash obviously has strong opinions and wasn’t shy about sharing them but this entire issue isn’t about Nash. This is from the Suns organization with support from the league, the Spurs, the NBA Players Association
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
Good to know
Will there be any PA announcement at the game about the jerseys? Do you foresee any fan unrest among those who support the law?
I seriously doubt there will be unrest
this is Arizona after all….no idea about a PA announcement but it is Cinco De Mayo so that’s an obvious connection
Blogging Suns Basketball . twitter: @sethpo
By "unrest", I mean....
There will be a smattering of boos and jeers if/when they make whatever PA announcement that “In honor of Cinco de Mayo, and to show our support to the Hispanic community…..blah blah blah”. Don’t you think? Maybe not widespread, and they’ll all turn to cheers as soon as it’s back to game action. But, look at the comments above. This is an emotionally charged issue. Opponents of the Suns’ position will make their voice heard in some way.
by East Bay Ray on May 4, 2010 10:19 PM MDT up reply actions
I doubt it...
Not only is most of the AZ population against this new bill for one reason or another (yes, there are other reasons this bill sets a dangerous precedent beyond the obvious), but this is basketball, and by-and-large, basketball fans are a pretty tolerant bunch. I would guess the vast majority will be behind the views of the team 100%
Now hockey fans on the other hand…
:-)
Good to know
Will there be any PA announcement at the game about the jerseys? Do you foresee any fan unrest among those who support the law?
Nice move Suns.
I don’t support this law at all, even though I don’t live in AZ, glad Nash, Stoudemire, Sarver, Kerr and Gentry are giving their opinion.
R U ORNG?
SB 1070
I will never go to another Sun’s game again. I feel it is wrong for them to change there shirts for a political cause. It’s not there place to do this. Bad on you Sun’s. Play basketball and not the political field. Unbelievable.
Yeah!
Athletes shouldn’t have an opinion! They only exist for my amusement!
by iwasneveryoung on May 4, 2010 11:45 PM MDT up reply actions
he didn't say they shouldn't have an opinion
I think he’s mad because they’re using their basketball popularity to gain support for disapproval of this law…which 70% of Az voted for? If that’s correct.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
Technically no one voted for it, since it was voted on by our representatives
But supposedly, it has a 70% approval rating amongst AZ citizens
Suns "statement"
Are you kidding me? Illegals have no rights until they come here legally. That is what this is about. This has nothing to do with discrimination. Why are the Suns making a political statement when they should be focused on what they get paid to do? I call for a boycott of tomorrows game!
by Sheri Warf Hathaway on May 4, 2010 10:25 PM MDT reply actions
Why did you and Mommyand2
Join today, only have one comment and it’s on this thread, both about the same thing (Boycotting the Suns)? Double accounts? I think so. I call a boycott of the unintelligent, such as yourself :)
R U ORNG?
Funny
It’s funny how the bulk of the insults are coming from those that support illegals.
Yes
When reasoning fails, attack and smear. Ever watch courtroom dramas? This is the way of the left.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
Appreciate
your comments Hawk, voice of reason in this mess. Emotional issue. This should be left for politicians ( even though they have screwed with it for so long it has become this) not a basketball team. Sarver and the Suns are wrong for this. I love them, but they stepped into a area they have no business getting into.
Let's be fair here
Both sides of the political spectrum have people guilty of this. And both have people who can refrain from personal attacks and, instead, carry on polite discussions.
by underxthebridge on May 5, 2010 12:09 PM MDT up reply actions
not really much of a point
there’s a ton of “new people” posting on this on both sides…
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
Boycott Suns
I totally agree. They have no right to fight for anything until they are legal and paying taxes.
I hate Steve Nash professionally (I'mma Laker fan)
But I agree 100 percent. Nice to see someone standing up for something. Professional athletes always get criticized for not being more socially aware. Glad to see he’s not going the safe route.
And he has a right to speak on the law. With so many ignorant people repeating falsehoods about immigration, legal or illegal, it’s refreshing to hear his opinion. He lives there. He’s one of the most recognizable faces of the state. Don’t ever let anyone tell you athletes or celebrates can’t express their opinion. People who say that are usually upset with the content of it, not the quality. Speak your mind, flopply haired Canadian.
And please beat the Spurs so we can trample over you on the way to the Finals.
:)
"They need security in the world, Craig!"
How is it physically possible to hate Stevie Nash?
by iwasneveryoung on May 4, 2010 11:46 PM MDT up reply actions
good question
I don’t agree with Nash on this and other things, but I still love him as a Sun and am anxious to watch him and the Suns play tonight
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
I don't hate him
He is just one more fool in the entertainment industry that thinks his status and spending of his wealth guarantees him a hearing in today’s society. Whether it’s the Pharisees on the right, or Pharisees on the left, it is still the same. People thinking they can force their opinions on others.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
What is being "forced" upon you?
He is expressing his opinion, just like you are on this forum. Because Nash is rich and famous he’s not allowed to do so?
no, he is not
He is using his considerable celebrity to try to influence policy. He is NOT simply voicing his opinion. People in the public eye know full well the impact of their opinions, and they use it to further their worldview.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
You
may be right, but there’s really no way for you to know that. You can’t assume that anytime you hear someone famous say something, the only reason they are saying it is to try and manipulate people. That’s true in many cases, sure, but not all.
by iwasneveryoung on May 6, 2010 12:02 AM MDT up reply actions
Suns R Us
I wouldn’t call someone unintelligent about an issue in a state you don’t even live in. You are more then welcome to invite all the illegals to your state. You can have all the crime, loss of jobs, and everything that comes with paying for illegals. Have your state pay the high price of illegals. See how it affects the tax payer.
Arizona law
I think it is perfectly acceptable for players to express their political opinions.
But for the team management to take a stand on political issues strikes me as crossing a line that should not be crossed.
What’s next, the Phoenix Suns organization is going to endorse candidates for Governor and President?
If we continue
to blindly line their pockets to salve our insatiable need for entertainment, why not?
I am reminded of Roger Waters on the Animals tour. Someone asked him who the sheep were in his song. He indicated the fans were the sheep, pigs, and goats.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
skimming through
Skimming through the posts here it seems like a lot of people are on the track.
The issue at hand should not be the pros or cons of the Arizona law. This is a sports blog, not a politics blog. The relevant issue is whether it is appropriate for a sports team to take sides on a political issue, be it supporting a particular candidate or taking a stand about a particular law.
Now, as I think this through some more, I suppose one could argue a sports team is a business, and corporations take stands on political issues, so what’s the big deal.
I guess what bothers me is that sports teams are going to have fans with a wide range of political views. Is it appropriate for a team to align itself politically with some of its fans and align itself politically in opposition to other fans?
Seems like a very questionable thing to me.
it will be interesting to see if this derails the Suns in the playoffs
You are going to have some fans that are angry because they disagree with the team’s political affiliation.
You are going to have another group of fans who don’t necessarily disagree with the Suns’ political position but feel it is inappropriate for a sports team to be involved in political advocacy.
And there will certainly be a group that thinks it’s fine for a team to be in politics and agree with the Suns’ position.
And then, last but not least, fans who couldn’t give a rat’s a** one way or another.
Boycott!!!
I was a Suns fan for nine years but if the Suns want to ram their political ideals down my throat then I will ram mine down theirs my no longer being a fan.
Props to the Suns; Boo to the bigot fans
Greetings from SA.
First, good game 1 to the Suns. The Spurs and NBA fans here in the great city of San Antonio would like to reiterate that we respect all the Suns players, as well as those in the organization who are on the side of inclusion. That is the real American way. Diversity is what makes this the greatest country, bar none. You obviously understand the bigger, selfless picture.
To oppose the mob mentality is the job of the exemplary and knowing citizenry. Traveling the path of foresight and righteousness is sometimes a tough choice. If your intent is true and powered by a superior will, you will help shape a solid and positive destiny for all people. In the end those who will not perish are one.
Too bad the norm will never understand the connectivity of it all. The oblivious attitudes of many Americans, and in this instance many Arizonans is a little disheartening. It creates a wellspring of negative emotions towards the state that this honorable franchise plays in/for. Therefore, the Suns’ intent is intertwined with the intent of the people of Arizona and fans of basketball all around the world.
It is for this reason that the Suns are destined to lose this series. Not because many hate the team, but because many Americans don’t understand the scapegoating that the government, and quite a few Arizonans are committing.
The fact that many Phoenix fans are angry with their own supposedly beloved team for doing what is right, creates a destructive division which will ultimately lead to the Suns ouster from these playoffs – in this round.
How can any true Christ-loving American profess to follow the words of the Good Book, especially the New Testament, yet fail to heed the words of their savior to protect and aid those in need? Matthew 7:1 warns us about judging others. That is God’s domain. His judgment will be much harsher on those who use prejudice as a weapon…
States can make laws dealing with Immigration across national borders, BUT ultimately those laws will be repealed when tested against the supreme law: The Constitution of the United States of America. This FACT will embroil your state in costly and socially injurious legal battles with the U.S. Department of Justice. If you thought that this “law” would save your state money and make you “safer” (fearing fear itself?), you’ll soon find out what price your citizenry must pay for their brashness, disregard for federal law and arrogance.
Good luck to the Suns. The plight of your state will be your downfall. It’s a shame. This really might have been Nash’s and Stoudamire’s year. Too bad too many of their ignorant and xenophobic, fascist-minded fans ruined it for your team.
Oh, and the simple fact that the Spurs are just a better all around team and organization. Deep, deep, deeper than Atlantis, deeper than the seafloor traveled by the Mantas…
Good lookin’!
Spurs in 6.
by Spur-o-th3-mom3nt on May 5, 2010 6:15 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Spur- o-the-mom3 nt
Like I said " invite all the illegals to your state." Diversity isn’t the issue. You must follow the law and become legal in this country, and pay taxes. Next time you get in a car accident I hope the person is legal because if they are not they will be free of paying and damages done to you car. Your INS. Rates will go up and they are liable for nothing. I support SB 1070. 100%
Hey Spurs fan
How is it that those who disagree with you are bigots? That is very unintelligent of you. That is the kind of thinking that will make Orwell come to life before our eyes.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
Now back to your regularly scheduled NBA Playoff Series....
GO SUNS!!
Can't think of something catchy to say here...I suck.
i'm going out of my way to not talk about this on other "basketball" threads on this website
there were some good reads above.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger....or makes you a Suns fan
I don't get it...
Illegal immigration is already, well… illegal, per the federal government.
This law just makes it illegal at the state level, does it not?
What’s new and different about this?
Hey GC
What is a law worth if it is not enforced?
I say we appoint a commission of data gatherers. They review laws. They will compile instances of broken law, and instances of enforcement. If the enforcement percentage falls below say, 15%, then the law is invalid. Like the ones that say you can’t spit on the street in New Jersey. Gone. Of course the lawyers wouldn’t like it, since people will figure out that they aren’t necessary. Ah, there I go, dreaming again.
April 29, 2008 Total Eclipse of the Sun. Is the sky falling?
What's different
States have no power to “make” their own immigration law. Only the Federal gov’t does.
What is “new and different” about this law is the enforcement powers that it tries to give Arizona police.
The really, really bad provision is that it attempts to empower the Arizona police to stop and inquire into the immigration status of ANY PERSON IN ARIZONA upon “reasonable suspicion”. The big problem: being an “illegal immigrant” is a status. Unless you are actually crossing the border or talking about how awesome it is to be an illegal immigrant, the only way the police would have “reasonable suspicion” that someone is an illegal immigrant is that s/he “looks like” an illegal immigrant—that is, the person LOOKS LIKE A MEXICAN.
The reason I say that the law “tries to” give these powers to Arizona police is because it will not last. It is almost certainly unconstitutional. There is no way for the Arizona police to use such powers without engaging in obvious racial discrimination.
I Have Never Been So Proud of Nash
I just added a piece of Steve gear today.
(Also, Los Suns won Game 2, so it was obviously the right call! =P)
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