Why Channing Frye Is Better at Center Than Power Forward
Enough talking about GMs for a few hours. Later this morning, Hedo Turkoglu will be introduced as the Suns' newest player.
Paul Coro mentioned in the AZ Republic that Turk might play the Power Forward position for the Suns, much like Boris Diaw did in 2005-06 season as a point-forward and secondary ball handler.
This would be a good, as well as bad, thing. Turkoglu is a terrible rebounder, and the common thinking is that the Suns would be killed if Turk played PF for too long.
So this has led Suns fans to hunt for a better option. But who?
Poor Hakim Warrick - no one wants him to get 30-35 minutes a game at PF, including me. Not that Warrick has no chance to succeed, but giving him 30+ minutes severely reduces the minutes of other player(s) who deserve them more. Lawal is too young. Collins is a mystery. If either plays a lot this season, that's a sure indication of more losses than wins. Teams just don't win 50+ games and make the Conference Finals by giving significant minutes to a rookie PF. And Clark is not a good option, either. He has the size, but he's mentally encumbered with the thought that he's a 6'2" shooting guard.
Who's left? Apparently, many think Channing Frye should take PF minutes. Here's why that SHOULD NOT happen.
Well on the surface, Frye sure "seems" like a Power Forward. He is tall and lean (though 248 pounds is not light as a feather), he likes to shoot outside shots, and spends most of his time on offense outside the painted area. This all screams POWER FORWARD or STRETCH 4.
But that's conventional thinking. And the Suns have never been conventional.
- The Suns are at a height disadvantage on most nights. If the other team can successfully play two 7-footers at all times, then they will get more rebounds simply by standing taller than the Suns' guys. The middle of the road in the NBA last season was 41.8 rebounds per game. So, given the height disparity, how did the Suns come in 7th, at 43.0 rebounds? And middle-of-the-pack in differential (Suns' rebounds vs. opponents' rebounds)? Not one of the Suns' players was an above-average rebounder. The answer: mismatches. A rebounder, by physical definition, is not successful at guarding a player in space. With Frye on the floor, standing around the 3-pt line, setting/coming off screens, the other team could not afford to play two rebounders at a time. As a result, the Suns' inherent height disadvantage was negated. And, Amare would get a lumbering biggie, which helped him win the offensive battle. Only LA had the mobile bigs to offset this over the course of an entire game.
- Lopez-Frye, yin-yang. But of course, there are diminishing returns to a mismatch. Over the course of an entire game, the other teams would figure it out. They would scheme to win the rebounding battle anyway by playing lighter and faster and more aggressive. Enter Robin Lopez, a traditional play-inside-the-paint Center. Robin was yin to Channing's yang. Suddenly, the Suns were switching up on the other team just as they'd get settled into one style. If the other team went small and played well at it, the Suns would go big (Lopez). And vice versa.
- Low-post defense. Surprisingly, Channing became a good post defender - on the low block - by the end of the season. He was effective against Tim Duncan and Gasol/Bynum, as long as they stayed in the painted area, second only to Robin (and miles ahead of Stoudemire). Lou Amundson got crazy blocks and a lot of rebounds, but was a real liability when defending the low post, as well. Conversely, Channing is really bad in space, trying to defend at 15 feet from the basket. Opponents would shoot over him or drive past him with ease.
So for those three reasons (mismatches, yin-yang to Lopez and low-post defense), Channing is better at the CENTER position than the Power Forward position. What the Suns need is a PF who can guard from the high-post or wing, on down. This *could* be Earl Clark someday. He is big and tall and yet very quick on his feet.
In the meantime, we cannot take away Channing's strengths just to pigeon-hole him into a traditional position based on his physical characteristics.
That is why the Suns re-signed him to 6 mill a year, and why they are mentioning Turkoglu at Power Forward. This is not because they think Turkoglu fits there best, but rather because that's the most-available position at this time, given the C position (Frye, Lopez) and SF positions are solid, and we need to find 25+ minutes a game for Turk.
How will Hedo Turkoglu do at Power Forward?
Let's start by harkening back to 2005-06 season, when Boris Diaw was the Suns PF. Boris averaged 13 points game without being able to hit an open jump shot, along with 6.9 rebounds and 6.2 assists.
Boris couldn't dribble, but was a great passer off the left elbow (outer corner of the painted area), as well as from directly under the hoop with no one guarding him. He averaged 6.2 assists that season, second only to Nash's 10.5. The two of them accounted for 2/3 of the Suns' assists each game (Barbosa averaged 2.8 and Bell 2.6). Boris' assist rate that season was 30.5 (percentage of plays in which Boris touched the ball that ended in an assist by him), with an overall career rate of 24.2. Hedo's assist rate, by contrast, has been about 19.2. He is not quite the same passer, but he's a much better shooter/scorer.
With regard to rebounding, Boris' rebound rate that season was 10.8 (percentage of missed shots that he rebounded). His career average - playing the PF position exclusively in Phoenix AND Charlotte - is 9.4 (bottom 15% of all qualifying power forwards). Turkoglu's career rebound rate is even worse, at 8.6. We can expect a slight uptick though, considering how many MORE caroms will be in his vicinity as the PF on running team, just as Boris' was higher as a Sun than before and after. (Amare, by contrast, has a career rebound rate of 14.7).
*All stats courtesy of basketball-reference.com and espn.com (Hollinger/insider)
Sounds bleak, since the Suns were KILLED on the glass in 2005-06, outrebounded by 4 per game that season. But after Kurt Thomas went down in February, missing the rest of the season, the Suns front line consisted of Shawn Marion (rebound rate of 16.3 that season) and Tim Thomas (rebound rate of only 7.4) and no one else in the rotation with a rebound rate higher than 8 for the season. That's 1 person (Marion) getting their fair share of available rebounds (10%) per missed shot, given that there are 10 players on the court at a time. One.
By contrast, the returning Suns have 4 of 10 rotation players get their fair share of rebounds on missed shots last season (a rebound rate of 10 or higher): Lopez (14.2), Hill (10.3), Frye (11.0) and Warrick (11.8). Childress (9.6) and Turkoglu (8.9) just missed the cut, as did returnees Richardson (9.2) and Dudley (8.0). But that is a lot better than the 2005-06 team.
You may discount the second half of this column - comparing PF Boris Diaw in 2006 to the prospect of Hedo Turkoglu in 2010 - and that's fine. Two different eras. Two different NBAs.
But Hedo is the best fit at PF that we have at the moment, and the Suns' supporting cast in 2010 is a lot more equipped to handle an undersized/no rebounding PF than that 2006 team ever was.
And, I believe, the Suns will hold their own on the glass in 2010-2011 with 8 of 10 rotation players (sans Nash and Dragic) getting their fair share of available rebounds.
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Haven’t read it yet, but it might get people to shut up about Suns needing Chandler/Nene/
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by itkonlyyou198 on Jul 25, 2010 7:12 AM MDT up reply actions
Well my brain is now smoldering again...Another few million brain cells down the drain..
But I agree mostly with the analysis…I knw we are better equipped than the 2005/2006 for the rebounding deficiencies, but the West has change since 2005/2006..I think it’s a heckuva lot stronger…We wil have to bring our “A” game every night…It’ll be tough, but we can do it..
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....!
OKC, LAL, & Utah are now much better rebounding teams than in 2005/2006..
Of course the Clippers & T-Wolves have crashed and burned since then as well…maybe it’ll even out…
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....!
right but still the average was 41.8 rebounds a game last year
across the NBA. And those rebound rates by Suns players were last year, in the “bigger, better” NBA too.
The Suns will be fine.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jul 21, 2010 10:06 AM MDT up reply actions
I caught that.
but was a great passer off the left elbow
as well as from directly under the hoop with no one guarding him.
Subtle jab, my friend. Nicely played.
"I make my case against a stack full of comics. Here comes the line.... I'm loaded with rocket fuel!!"
- Mike Watt, The Minutemen
I can't count how many times I screamed at the TV
when he passed out of an open layup to the 3-pt line. of course, more often than not the Suns would make the 3 and frustrate the other team but… it still drove me crazy
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by Alex Laugan on Jul 21, 2010 10:29 AM MDT up reply actions
Yeah, that was our Boris.
Highly gifted, but about as intimidating as a box full of kittens.
"I make my case against a stack full of comics. Here comes the line.... I'm loaded with rocket fuel!!"
- Mike Watt, The Minutemen
When it got to the point that I expected it to happen...
Was when I realized he had to go…
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....!
Because Tim has had 3 good months in his entire career
by beastattack3000 on Jul 21, 2010 2:31 PM MDT up reply actions
Exactly. You have to admit those 3 months he was a different player. I don’t know what changed in him. He brought toughness and got in the head of other players like Dirk. He was clutch and he killed the Lakers. I think we were the perfect system for him. If he stayed I believe he would have continued to play that way and he definitely would have been a better backup for Amar’e than Diaw. Stat and Doris just couldn’t co-exist.
Don't trade Dudley!
well, I wouldn't say he really got in the head of Dirk
Sure he stood in Dirk’s face, but then the Suns lost that game to Dirk’s 50 points (20+ in a fourth quarter comeback after that kissoff in the 3rd)
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Good post.
We may not have that “dominant” or main rebounder like a Marion or Amare, but I think we should be fine in rebounding by committee. We have many average rebounders that should be able to distribute the rebounding total amongst them.The mismatches can work to our advantage, and AG has been doing well in exploiting them. Channing at spreads the floor which takes away his defender from the basket allowing the other guys to crash the boards. Unconventional is what the Suns are all about: fast-paced, multi-positional players, Nash’s YMCA old man shot. As long as we move the ball around and not get too stuck in a half court game, it should still be a very productive season on both end of the court. But then again, I’ve learned to become an optimist watching the Suns over the years. There’s always next year…
I think Turk can increase he rebound rate; I mean he is 6'10, he could at least try and get 7 rpg a night.
I remember when he was on the Kings, especially the wcf in 02, when his shot wasn’t falling he tended to rebound more;hopefully he tries to score and rebound.
F*ck you Rob Sarver!
Turk has alway been the guy to ignite the transition game,
leaking out early for a pass. In fact, in the 7SOL offense, 3 or 4 guys were always back in transition defense as soon as the shot went up on the offensive end, conceding the rebound.
Gentry has changed this philosophy, having the wing players and the C/PF hang around to contest the rebound, which is, as much as anything, why we improved. Turk will be going after rebounds more, with Nash, JRich, and Grant to leak for the transition pass, which he will be very good at. I don’t think he will turn into Rodman, but he will get his share, as Robin helps with box-outs – he is a hustle player, and will thrive in the gang-rebound philosophy.
There will be a bit of the ‘Frye’ factor in there, too – kind of like having Frye play alongside Robin. Turk can stretch the floor, and will certainly pull a big out to cover him, but then, we’ll still have Robin inside. He, Grant, and JRich are all good on the cut, and I think Hedo will be very good in the P&R, so I think we’ll be better than a lot of people think with Turk at PF.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
Hmm.
Alex, you use the more sophisticated measure of rebound rate to describe individual players in your post, but you use the simplistic rebounds per game to trumpet the Suns’ team efforts.
PHX got 43 rpg as a team, good for 7th in the league. But that isn’t mismatches talking, it’s pace. The Suns were 1st in offensive efficiency last year, and 19th in defensive efficiency, meaning they both put up and allowed more shots than average. This accounts for their rank or 4th in the league in pace, behind crazy playing teams like Indiana and Golden State. More opportunities to rebound off the extra shots each team hoists during the game means a few more rebounds—the difference between 43 for 7th in total rebs as a team and, say 40, which would have put them in the bottom 5.
My other dispute is with your claim of size disadvantage. Richardson rebounds well for a SG, but Childress rebounds even better. IF (big if) Richardson were traded for a good center like say, Kaman, pushing Lopez to the bench, then we’d have these heights in the lineup: 6’3", 6’8", 6’10". 6’11", and 7’ (Nash, Chill, Turk, Frye, Kaman). Bench would be 6’4", 6’7", 6’8", 6’9", and 7’ (Dragic, Dudley, Hill, Warrick, Lopez). Switch Hill and Turk if you cling to the notion that Hill flounders as a reserve. That to me is awesome size as a team, and in Kaman you’d have the rebounding, scoring and shot-blocking you need to get back if a JRich trade happens.
I guess my biggest issue with all of this is it assumes the Suns stand pat. But Sarver is now on record as saying he is amassing reasonable contracts as assets for a major trade. Who knows, maybe he’ll eventually use Frye as a piece, or flip Turk or Warrick or ?? (I know some guys can’t be traded for 2 months…I’m not talking about a trade tomorrow, but down the line when Sarver seizes on an opportunity to use his assets). I guess what I’ve been saying for a while is that IF some other guys were traded for a really good center, like the very possible JRich and his golden ticket expiring contract, then guys like Chill and Turk slide DOWN to natural positions and who plays PF? Josh Smith if he’s the bounty in a Richardson trade, and I happily watch Frye back up the C position. But if a good C comes back to push Lopez to the bench, Frye as a Rashard Lewis kind of PF would be just great.
by JeHa on Jul 21, 2010 12:00 PM MDT reply actions
I said you cou;dn
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by Alex Laugan on Jul 21, 2010 12:40 PM MDT up reply actions
I said you couldn't talk about trades, jeha
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by Alex Laugan on Jul 21, 2010 12:40 PM MDT up reply actions
You didn't say that anywheres.
Closest you came was “enough talking about GMs for a few hours,” which sounds more like “enough about Pemp Babby stuff,” not “no one may mention trade possibilities.”
But with Sarver on the record saying a big trade is the major way he is looking to improve the team, I don’t think it’s possible NOT to talk trades. Not any old crazy idea, but as you’ve stated a lot recently, the more general idea of a Gasol moment that nets us a great player. Sarver basically says he is angling for that kind of thing this season. And I don’t say “Kaman!” like it’s a crazy idea that just might work. Take any specific name out of it if you like, and just say JRich could get a quality center, which could put Lopez on the bench, making Frye an attractive PF and letting Turk play SF and Chill play SG. Big, effective lineup.
by JeHa on Jul 21, 2010 1:42 PM MDT up reply actions
oops, that was in an earlier version
requesting not to talk trades on this post. sorry.
right but in the meantime we go to war with what we have. And this post is talking about that what we have now is pretty darn good.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
you can't relate 'defensive efficiency' to rebounds
those are not as related as you might think.
I also talked about rebound differential, where the suns ranked in the middle of the pack in differential (team rebounds vs. opponents). This negates the pace factor, because the opposing team has just as many chances as the Suns on each missed shot.
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by Alex Laugan on Jul 21, 2010 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions
my point is that your rebounds argument is borderline moot
you’re trying to say that the Suns rebounded well last season (7th in the league), and Frye’s presence helped that happen, making the other team put someone more mobile on him and taking one of their preferred, lumbering rebounders off the floor.
I’m saying they didn’t rebound as well as your choice of stats would represent, and in any case Frye’s presence on the floor as a C or a PF has the same basic result: one of the other team’s big men has to guard him in uncomfortable, non-rebound likely territory, whether he’s a PF or a C. Either way, he’s taking a big man away from the rim.
by JeHa on Jul 21, 2010 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions
sorry I just don't think you read my post completely
and just stopped processing at the first part. I followed that up with how many players hold their own on the boards, up and down the lineup, which explains why the Suns rebounded more missed shots as a team than their opponents did. And why they will likely do so again next year.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
I read it all.
We just disagree on the importance of Frye providing a mismatch at C or PF. You say he needs to be a C to effect the mismatch, and I say the mismatch comes either way because you’re still drawing a big out to the 3 point line.
Using rebounding to prove Frye’s worth as a PF or a C just seems to me to be beside the point. Either way, as you say, there is solid rebounding up and down the lineup, and if he can get 6-8 boards (from wherever he plays) while Hill, Turk, Chill and Dudley all get the 5 or so they’re capable of, then he’s doing what we hope he does.
I think matchups is where it’s at, just not exactly as you describe. You put a lot of importance on Frye guarding only a low post big while playing C. I say that each opponent will present different possibilities. Guarding Thad Young and Speights at the 4 and 5 while playing PHI will be very different than guarding Howard and Lewis with ORL, which will be different than Gasol/Bynum.
Probably (upon further reflection) your “Frye as backup C!” and my “Frye as starting PF!” will all even out to him getting minutes at either spot, and getting the same basic minutes as Lopez—no matter who starts where and who backs up where. And Gentry will do better than you or I to decide :).
by JeHa on Jul 21, 2010 6:02 PM MDT up reply actions
agreed
that Gentry will do it better than either you or I could
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
the other thing to consider:
if you slot Frye as a PF, then you must envision a larger person than Frye playing C. That right there allows the other team to play at least 1 bigtime rebounder/plodder. This negates the Suns mismatch advantage.
Whereas if Frye plays C, then the PF is a smaller individual (Warrick, Turk, etc) who is too quick for the other team’s bigtime rebounder plodder to track. Back comes the mismatch.
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I'm with Alex on this one.
Frye is not a PF. Just like some pitchers have the mentality to be closers and some don’t, Frye would be frustrated playing physical all the time on both ends of the floor, and it would affect his shooting, rebounding, and productivity overall.
And Gentry knows what he’s doing.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
I like Frye as the backup center (as I already might have mentioned)
and I kinda felt (though this is probably not true) that I saw a real impovement from him in the rebounding area when he grabbed 23 rebounds in the last two games of the WCF. He really wanted those rebounds and worked hard for it, and I hope he can keep up that work for next season. I hope he has watched those games on tape tons of times. These are truly great numbers vs the NBA champions:
_____________min_fg%____3pt%_ft%__off_def_reb_ast_stl_blk_to__fouls_pts
May 29 vs. LAL 40 5 – 7 2 – 4 0 – 0 2 11 13 1 0 1 1 3 12
May 27 @ LAL 31 4 – 10 3 – 8 3 – 4 3 7 10 2 1 1 0 3 14
and frye has said he wants to improve his rebounding this year
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by Alex Laugan on Jul 21, 2010 12:43 PM MDT up reply actions
The problem is,
on offence, he just isn’t in the paint. And on defence, he is decent and I don’t think his inability to defend has anything to do with his strength/weigth. I think putting on too many pounds would eventually hurt his shooting consistency.
Unfortunately No
Frye’s post game is abhorrent. He is noticeably uncomfortable in the paint on offense. It drives me crazy how bad he is down low. Only one thing has changed about Frye since he signed with the Suns last offseason at close to league minimum contract. He added a deadly 3 point game. Since tripling his salary he has talked about getting better at rebounding, playing with more energy. Basically everything he’s not, Frye has said he will work to be.. Of course he’s going to say and want such things. Im sure Frye wants to live up to his contract as much as anyone and show skills that befit a near 7-footer, but it’s not like he hasn’t been around long enough to show those skills. Frye is a niche, specialist. Improvements you can expect out of Frye include…increased 3 point efficiency and improved mid range game. Improving as a post presence and rebounder is something I am certain we won’t see out of him.
He certainly improved his rebounding over the course of last year.
Rebounding is less skill oriented and more desire oriented – he’s smart, and proper positioning for rebounds is aided greatly by intelligence. I think he can improve, as he did at the end of last year.
I don’t know if he will improve his post presence, but that isn’t the only component of an inside game. He’s pretty good at cutting, and there will be more room for that without Amar’e.
To call him a niche specialist is a bit patronizing. He was the starting center for the bulk of the season for a WCF team. I think a lot of teams would like that kind of ‘niche specialist’.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
the things about which you are certain
would you put actual cold hard cash on it, that Frye’s “rebound rate” will not improve next year?
Please say no, for your wallet’s sake. In fact, last year was one of his lowest rebound-rate seasons of his career. Its actually MOST likely that his rebound rate will improve, because he’s done it before. He’s had 2 different seasons with a rebound rate as high as Amare’s (14-15 range), which is more respectable.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
good point
when i see blair im thinking “facts of life”
wait..back up, what the F* is a "chris duhon"?
Yeah, we need a PF who is more like Jo from Facts of Life
by East Bay Ray on Jul 21, 2010 1:57 PM MDT up reply actions
we did last year
matt barnes. i hated him… still do. i think we should have a policy now that amare is gone that no player with neck tattoos can be on the team. can someone drum up a poll for this ?
wait..back up, what the F* is a "chris duhon"?
yes he's a mystery
we have no idea what he can do. Have never seen him play with the team
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
At best Collins is Blair with knees
but that is unlikely. He was the last pick of the draft and had nowhere near the impact in 4 years of college that Blair did in 2. He likely isn’t going to make the team.
Since I know he’d never play, I hope he can be signed but stashed in the d-league as a future player.
Thanks for posting this. It seems a lot of people are being pessimistic about the suns season right now. I still belive in them!
Frye would create even more of a jam for forwards, right now we are evened out at 2 per position, a 10 man rotation. Let frye stay center and give him time to improve rebounding, etc.
Warrick would be playing when frye would, evening ot the rebounding hopefully, and turk and lopez at the same time, also evening out rebounding.
Say Alex
Maybe you should get on the horn to yahoo and remind them Frye is the backup 5, not Hakim Warrick. In fact Frye isn’t even on the depth chart.
Not that I need to look at depth charts on yahoo. I mean, I kind of already know it I think.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jul 21, 2010 2:37 PM MDT up reply actions
I wouldnt know who to call
and even if I did, they wouldn’t care to hear from me…
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centers who got away
If Jamaal Magloire hadn’t just signed with the Miami Cold, I’d be interested in him. Same thing with Tony Battie.
oy
really? when was the last time you saw either of them play basketball?
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the two of them are collectively 200 years old
and would likely have the same impact as Jarron Collins did last year.
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Battie and Magloire got away??!
THat’s like fondly recalling the girlfrien who keyed your car and slashed your tires and saying that you’d still be interested. Neither of them are any good.
Rebounding is a mindset more than anything
For us to come close to repeating our slightly better than middle of the pack rebounding effort from last year it will take 3 guys, minimally, having the mindset that every time the ball comes off the rim, they are the person that’s going to end up with the ball. Gentry did a great job at pushing that mindset last year. I think he can instill it again. What is worrisome to me is allowing offensive rebounds/second chance points. We got considerably less offensive rebounds than our opponents last year (off the top of my head about 20% less) and I only see that gettin worse this year. I am comfortable going to war with what we have, but knowing that Sarver is stockpiling talent with intentions of making a trade makes me a little giddy every day when I first ump on espn.com just knowing I may be reading about a big splash Suns move.
Josh Childress is one of the best offensive rebounders in the game
FWIW
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Agree with the main point of the post
Frye is best suited as a 5 imo. He can adequately defend at the 5 position, and he creates mismatches on the offensive end. That, more than anything, explains why he’s best suited to play there.
can you imagine turk and frye camping out at the three point line?
our SF (HILL) would be the tallest position inside. Hill would kill his guard on the low block
Not to mention JRich, Nash, Dudley, Dragic, and Childress...
depending on the situation, one or two of these guys should be on the floor with them at any given time. A team had better have some quick guys on the perimeter, cuz I think we’re going to break some records this year.
Grant shot 43.8% from three, btw – only 80 attempts. Still, he doesn’t suck.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy

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