Suns Rising: Rebounding And Defensive Success Are Two Different Animals
Hopefully, this won't make your head hurt.
I signed up for Synergy Sports this morning to help answer a question that's been brewing in my mind. I keep hearing how the Suns' rebounding will suffer with Turkoglu and Warrick taking over for Amare and Lou at the PF position. That's certainly true.
But does poorer rebounding mean the Suns' defense will be worse?
No. At least, not necessarily.
Contrary to popular belief, your number of rebounds does not directly correlate to your defensive success. And, the Suns defense should actually be able to IMPROVE this season, despite the rebounding issues.
Want proof? You got it (thanks to Synergy Sports).
Take a look at the rankings of the 8 Western Conference playoff teams in 2009-2010:
| 2009-2010 Ranking | |||||
| WC Seed | Def RR | Off RR | Pts/Play | Pts/Poss | |
| LA Lakers | 1 | 9 | 7 | 6 | 5 |
| Dallas | 2 | 15 | 26 | 8 | 12 |
| Phoenix | 3 | 29 | 8 | 15 | 19 |
| Utah | 4 | 5 | 13 | 12 | 11 |
| Denver | 5 | 25 | 19 | 15 | 16 |
| Portland | 6 | 7 | 4 | 15 | 13 |
| San Antonio | 7 | 4 | 13 | 8 | 9 |
| OKC Thunder | 8 | 16 | 3 | 1 | 8 |
Description of the columns:
- WC Seed: playoff seeding in the 2010 Western Conference playoffs
- Def RR: the rate at which a team rebounds the other team's missed shots (those not grabbed are offensive rebounds for the other team)
- Off RR: the rate at which a team rebounds their own missed shots
- Pts/Play: an advanced stat taken from SynergySports.com, the number of points scored on each play (offensive rebounds do not count here)
- Pts/Poss: the number of points scored on each possession (this one takes offensive rebounds into account). This is generally called 'Defensive Efficiency'.
This table is a great illustration that Defensive Rebounding prowess does not directly correlate to a team's defensive success.
There seem to be 2 parts of overall Defensive Efficiency: initial defense (resulting in a shot attempt, shooting foul or turnover) and second-chance defense (otherwise known as defensive rebounding).
A team can be good at defensive rebounding, but that doesn't matter if the opponent makes a lot of shots. In other words, you can't rebound a shot that goes through the hoop. Conversely, a team can mitigate their rebounding deficiency by playing better defense before the shot even goes up.
Initial Defense is the 'Pts/Play' column in the above table. As you can see, the Suns were tied for worst in Points Per Play among playoff teams. But being middle of the pack (15th) overall in the entire league helped them make the playoffs, despite being the second-worst defensive rebounding team in the NBA.
Second-chance defense is the prevention of offensive rebounds to extend the play. The Suns were very bad at preventing these, proven in their 29th-ranked 'defensive rebound rate'.
Defensive Efficiency - the 'Pts/Poss' column in the above table - takes both initial defense and second-chance defense into account.
The Suns initial defense ranked 15th, second-chance defense ranked 29th, resulting in an overall defensive efficiency (pts/poss) of 19th. Being the second-worst defensive rebounding team hurt the Suns, but not as much as you might expect.
Take a look at OKC and Portland. Portland was a much better defensive rebounding team than OKC (4th vs. 16th), yet finished with a worse overall Defensive Efficiency (13th vs. 8th) because Portland's initial defense was poor by comparison to OKC (15th vs. 1st).
So what does this mean to the Suns?
This: If our favorite team is going to struggle to rebound the ball, they can offset some of that with better initial defense.
Let's break down the Suns' initial defense.
| Play - Ends in FGA, TO FTs | %Time | League Rank on pts/play |
| Overall | 100% | 15 |
| Isolation | 13.1% | 27 |
| P&R Ballhandler | 9.1% | 30 |
| Post-Up | 10.6% | 7 |
| P&R Roll Man | 4.3% | 13 |
| Spot-Up | 19.3% | 4 |
| Off Screen | 3.6% | 12 |
| Hand Off | 2.4% | 22 |
| Cut | 8.5% | 5 |
| Offensive Rebound | 6.4% | 14 |
| Transition | 12.5% | 11 |
| All Other Plays | 5.7% | 20 |
Spot-ups were a big part of the Suns defensive scheme
These numbers are quite illuminating. If you thought the opposing team was shooting A LOT of open jumpers last season, you were right. In fact, spot-up jumpshots comprised 19.3% of all plays, by far the most common result of a play against the Suns defense. The Suns schemed for it. They WANTED the other team to take jumpers.
And they were pretty good at defending it (ranking 4th overall in fewest points/play on spot-ups). Sometimes, a good defense is forcing a contested spot-up or inducing the opponent to have their worst shooter take the open shot. Being left open for a jump-shot is a lot of pressure, especially if you're not a great shooter.
The Suns excelled at this type of defense last season, a primary component of the 15th overall ranking in initial defense.
The Suns really sucked at guarding the man on the perimeter with the ball
While the Suns were great when the ball was passed to a spot-up shooter (or into low post - 7th overall), they were absolutely horrendous when the primary ballhandler kept it for himself.
A whopping 22.2% of the time, the opposition's play ended either in an isolation (13.1%) or pick-n-roll ballhandler talking the shot or driving to the basket (9.1%). If the Suns couldn't force the dribbler to give it up, they were in deep trouble. Deep trouble to the tune of 27th overall against the 'iso' and 30th against the 'p&r ballhandler' plays. Ouch.
This indicates a couple of things: (1) the Suns played passive defense against the ballhandler to protect the paint against the roll man, and (2) the Suns did not have a lot of good individual defenders. Our best on-ball defender, in terms of numbers last season, was Dragic - though he was much better defending iso's than the p&r ballhandler, while Steve Nash was the opposite.
This isn't just about guards either. The Forwards contributed to the poor defense against isolation plays.
Replacing Leandro Barbosa's perimeter minutes with Josh Childress (as well as a couple of Amare's minutes) should be able to help in this regard. Childress had a reputation as a good on-ball defender, as well as a good help defender, while Barbosa was poor at both.
(SynergySports has only posted 2009-2010 numbers, so Childress' numbers are unavailable)
Warrick and Turkoglu replacing Amare and Lou
Hakim Warrick and Hedo Turkoglu (replacing Amare and Lou) are a mixed bag at best.
Listed is their overall ranking in each major defensive situation, against the rest of the NBA players (roughly 450-500 players).
| Lou | Amare | Hakim | Hedo | Boozer | Bosh | Gasol | J Smith | Varejao | |
| Overall | 204 | 95 | 280 | 339 | 95 | 170 | 147 | 353 | 204 |
| Isolation | 253 | 259 | 10 | 51 | 35 | 16 | 177 | 232 | 63 |
| Post-Up | 141 | 157 | 294 | 51 | 149 | 114 | 187 | 197 | 157 |
| Spot-Up | 47 | 47 | 29 | 296 | 131 | 252 | 81 | 296 | 81 |
Edit: this table has caused a lot of angst, which is my fault. I am not showing you the distribution, only the ranking. Next time, I'll show more details if you want.
Lou has a worse overall points/play ranking than Amare (204th vs. 95th) because, while both are bad at defending isolation, Lou had to do it a LOT more often than Amare (27% vs. 16%). So, Lou's final pts/play numbers are a little worse than Amare, hence the lower ranking.
Josh Smith, despite his defensive rep, is worse than anyone on here. That's not a mirage. Unfortunately, it seems that his team forced him to defend something he's terrible at defending, a lot more often than ever before: spot-up jump shooting. Rather than being under the basket, Smith spent a lot of time on the perimeter last season. Smith gave up 1.08 points for every jump shot taken against him. 1.08! That's terrible. What's even worse is that he had to defend this type of play more than 34% of the time he was doing anything.
So, Amare's fault were hidden, while Smith's were exposed. Kudos to Gentry on that.
Hakim and Hedo are better against isolation (they are more mobile in space, I guess), but much worse than the two Suns they replace in either post-up or spot-up situations. I'm guessing Turkoglu's numbers in these areas are throw-away. His post-up defense numbers are on a small sample size, and the Suns' scheme should improve his spot-up numbers significantly.
I threw in numbers from other well-known or recently-desired PFs for comparison. Amare and Lou were far and away better than the field in spot-up defense, so I have to attribute some of that to the Suns' scheme. And they were by far the worst in isolation defense.
Since isolations, by design, are scheme-free, would we assume that Lou and Amare were just bad fits in that area? Or does the Suns' scheme somehow make matters worse on iso's? They certainly ranked near the bottom overall in that area.
Feel free to infer whatever else you want to infer from the numbers posted. Is Amare really a better defender than those other guys up there? Maybe not, but the numbers are the numbers. If nothing else, they show relative comparison to each other though each team's defensive scheme must play a part.
Summation
The Suns can be better defensively this season, despite the potential rebounding deficit, if they focus on improving their initial defense (plays ending in shots, free throws or turnovers).
On the perimeter, the addition of Childress and continued improvement from Dragic should allow them to turn up the heat on perimeter defense (increased steals?) and be better at isolations and pick-n-rolls. Any improvement on defending iso's and ballhandlers would be a huge boon to the overall numbers.
The Suns' post-up defense should not suffer, as long as they put Lopez or Frye on him while pairing Warrick/Turkoglu against the face-up guy. Only teams who play 2 post-up players at the same time would give the Suns trouble (Lakers). But then, how many teams besides the Lakers even have two 6'9" and taller post-up players in their lineup at the same time?
Given the problems the Suns are likely to have in stopping second-chance points (ie. defensive rebounding), they will need to improve their initial defense from 15th overall to somewhere around 10th or higher.
And if you look at the numbers, and the guys the Suns brought in, this goal is reachable.
Go Suns!
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Bless you Alex, I needed to read something suns related before I died.
For every sunset, there will always be a sunrise.
Ditto.
There isn't a single acceptable situation for the question "Is this game almost over yet?" Not one.
by Basketball GF on Aug 13, 2010 4:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Very, very interesting.
I would have though Hedo would rank much lower against post-ups and higher against spot-ups – this looks pretty promising. I think Grant might be able to help both Hakim and Hedo improve, especially in our system.
Great post, Alex. I think you blew my mind.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
what do you make of Josh Smith looking so bad
and Amare looking so good?
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
I'm curious too.
A lot of those defensive numbers paint quite a different picture than conventional wisdom.
Maybe there are issues that effect the numbers but aren’t included in the computation, like tendency to guard an opposing team’s backup versus their starter, or spending a lot of time playing out of position, or perhaps being expected to play help defense more than average.
Numbers are important to me though. When the equation is right, the answer is never wrong and these are interesting numbers to dig through.
I tend to agree with you - I think it's our system.
I also think that a little bit can change those numbers a lot – in other words, a small change could raise or lower your ranking quite a bit. Also, East teams seem to me to generally be bigger and slower, with more post up and isolation, which could skew the numbers a bit, too.
I haven’t watched Atlanta a lot, but it seems to me that the individual players are on their own quite a bit. As far as Amar’e looking so good on spot ups – he seemed to get a lot better at not leaving his feet and getting a hand in the face – most of his spot ups are on the baseline, and he’s pretty big and scary, and decent at not fouling spot up shooters. It seems to me he got some help, too.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
yes, agreed
a little bit can change those numbers a lot
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Isn't a lot of it based on matchups too?
We tend to stick Amar’e on the opposing teams’ weaker big men while Robin or Channing guarded the opposing teams’ better big men.
Guys like Smith are known for being good defenders, so he usually gets the defensive assignment on the better offensive big men like Boozer or KG.
Steve Nash is my mancrush. But Goran Dragic is the 2nd coming of Manu Ginobili, which makes him just as tasty.
I'm sure the matchups
have a lot to do with it, as well as scheme.
overall, I like the team defense numbers better than the individual ones. Until I figure them out better, anyway.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Aug 13, 2010 10:34 PM MDT up reply actions
every one of these numbers is backed by video
quite incredible. every single play has video on it.
so, I looked at Josh Smith’s spot-up defense vs. Amare’s spot-up defense, and the big difference is that Smith seems to have been paired up against really good outside shooters (Rashard Lewis, for example) while Amare was really paired up against poor shooters (Antonio McDyess).
So, component of this is how exposed you were to a great offensive player.
Though I do give credit to Amare: when he DID contest the spot-up, he did so with good extension getting up to the player’s release point, while Josh Smith would often just stay where he was and put a hand up flat-footed.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Is there a possibility that we Earl Clark improve this season and play some promising D? Like the promising D that he played on Dirk in that TNT game?
For every sunset, there will always be a sunrise.
not unless there's a rash of injury
his head just hasn’t been in it, yet, and that’s important.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Makes me feel better
I’ve felt al along that we aren’t going to be as bad as the pundits are saying. Thanks for putting these numbers together. I was shocked that Amare was rated much higher than Gasol.
Wow...! My brain is straight smoldering after reading this...
Good analysis…I really hope it pans out…
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....!
I guess i just dont understand those defensive numbers.
All Lou’s numbers were even or better than Amare’s yet he ranks 204th vs Amare’s 95. There must be something missing. I need some further explanation how all that works. Those numbers just don’t jive with me.
BTW those can’t be right about smith. He is overall ranked the 353rd defensive player. I’m confused I thought he was close to making all defensive team this year. Explain pozhalyusta (Russian for please).
by Suns Fan For Life on Aug 13, 2010 6:25 PM MDT reply actions
well, probably number of minutes plays a part
Amare did it on 34 mins a night, while lou on only 15
and I only showed the main 3 numbers (that make up 80-90% of the defensive assignments), so Lou must have been worse in other areas.
can’t explain Josh Smith at all. No idea who it came out like that. But as far as ‘DPOY’ talk, that’s just talk. Doesn’t need to be based in reality.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
I confirmed it
the whole ranking is based on volume per type of defensive play. The overall ranking (Amare at 95, Lou at 204 and Josh Smith at 353) is based on total pts/play across ALL defensive plays across the entire season.
Amare and Lou were both bad at defending isolation sets (.94 to .95 pts/play), yet Lou had to do so a lot more often than Amare did (27% vs. 16%). When the numbers were all tolled, Lou’s overall pts/play ended up worse than 203 other guys because he spent more of his time than they did defending something he wasn’t good at defending.
This is likely due to the fact that Lou played the other team’s second unit, which has more iso’s because they are a cobbled-together group of inidividual players.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
and Josh Smith is another example of the same
he was horrible (and I mean horrible) at defending the spot-up shooter on the perimeter. In looking at video, he rarely charged at the shooter with an attempt to disrupt. It was always a half-assed wave of the hand or a run-by for a fast break leak-out.
So the spot-up shooters made a LOT of shots of Josh Smith (1.08 pts/shot!). He’s just not good at defending the perimeter.
Well, unfortunately for him, he did that a lot last season (34.5% of his defensive plays) and it affected his entire game. The preponderance of times that he was put on an island to defend a perimeter player, and failed at it, really hurt his pts/play numbers.
It could be that Smith was the sacrificial lamb for the team, but you would think the coach would see what’s not working and change it.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Damn, Alex, you're going to be dangerous with this new database.
Not much room for the rectal database anymore.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
Merry Christmas. I bet your wife loves it.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
So......Stoudemire was actually a pretty good defender?
That’s what stood out to me. I think a lot of us have figured, “yeah, Hedo’s gonna suck at D but he’s replacing Amare and Amare wasn’t that good either.” By these numbers, we may have downgraded even more than many of us thought.
Interesting, thought-provoking post, but these numbers don’t pass the smell test for me. Amare is a better defender than Varejao, Gasol and Louuuuuu? Josh Smith is terrible and Varejao is just average? It doesn’t appear that way watching the games.
agreed
I was just showing what I found though, and the site is very respected.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
and it is possible that
defensive reputations vary from reality, too
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
check my comment right above this
Overall, these numbers don’t require a smell test. The fact is that Josh Smith gave up more points/play than Amare did, by a lot. All those guys did.
You can surmise that those other guys were often put on an island to defend the opponent’s best frontcourt player, while Amare was “hidden” in the Suns scheme better. But across the board, players scored less on Amare than they did on all those other guys.
(by the way, there is video on every single one of these plays, so the numbers are real. Its quite amazing really)
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
It's not that I don't believe the accuracy of the data
I just think that the numbers tell a limited story of how good a defensive player these guys are. But, it looks like others have already covered that topic.
by East Bay Ray on Aug 15, 2010 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions
We have the size it's just in the back court.
Hill pg, Clark sg, Turkoglu sf, Frye pf, Lopez c. With this line up the opposing guards have to guard someone 6’8" or taller. Get them in the post 5ft from the basket and go over them. If they double team the post the our big fellas roll to the basket or swing the ball to the open man. If this line up can’t rebound and defend we never will. I know what I’ve said isn’t exactly related to the article… just another Suns fan contemplating the nature of the basketball universe. :-D
but those stats includes plays from "garbage time"
by Christian_33 on Aug 13, 2010 7:47 PM MDT up reply actions
So the defense won’t be much worse, possibly better, and is not connected to the rebounding. Great. But what about the rebounding? What’s the solution?
Last year Lopez got about 7 rebounds per game when starting. With him, Amar’e, Lou and Frye we were the 5th best rebounding team in the league during the span when Lopez entered the starting lineup to when he went down with the injury. 5th! They combined for about 25 rebounds a game;9, 7, 5, 4.
Take out Amar’e and Lou and throw in Turk and Warrick. We obviously get worse; 4, 7, 5, 4. Warrick will probably give us less with less minutes, so more like 2. Who’s going to make up for the other 7 rebounds per game? Turk will have to improve and at least give us 5. I expect and hope that Frye and Lopez will both improve giving us at least 8 by Robin and 6 by Frye. Overall, next year it will be 8,6, 5, 2 by our front-court. That’s 21 rebounds per game by our front-court.
Yes, it won’t be good enough for 5th best in the league, but it will probably be good enough for middle pack in the league. As long as someone other than Warrick doesn’t get hurt we won’t be as bad as people think we will. With an improved defense and decent rebounding to go along with a great offense, how could we not make the playoffs?
Don't trade Dudley!
Also, some may ask,“How could they have been the 5th best rebounding team during that span when the front-court only combined for 25?” Because our forwards J-Rich, Hill and Dudley can all crash the boards. Now add Josh Childress to that mix who has averaged around 5-6 rpg through his career.
Don't trade Dudley!
I view him as the 10th man getting Lou like minutes. I could be wrong. Maybe Gentry plans to have all his backups get about 20mpg. That means Frye would see a 7min decrease and Dudley about a 4min decrease. Chill would also get about a 10min decrease.
Don't trade Dudley!
i thnk you're just underestimating them
because they haven’t played a game. Suns are not going to pay 10 mil a yr for those guys to play such few minutes. And those guys are too good to play so little.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Aug 13, 2010 11:03 PM MDT up reply actions
You could say the same about Nash, J-Rich, Lopez and Turk though. All those guys deserve 30mpg next season. That means that all the other 6 players can get 20mpg each. If anyone of them is going to get less than 20 it will probably be Warrick.
Don't trade Dudley!
We also know that Gentry doesn't have a 'preset number of minutes'
sheet that he works off of – if someone is playing well, they will stay in.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
I put up a post last month
proving that, as long as every player MATCHES last years rebound-per-minute output, the Suns would only lose 2 rebounds a game.
Childress > LB on rebounding.
Warrick and Turk will get likely fewer total minutes than Amare and Lou did, meaning others with higher rebound rates will play.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Still, we won’t be good enough to be 5th best in the league. 11-19 is where I’m guessing we will be for that season. With a decent defense, decent rebounding, great offense and great bench how could we not be a contender?
Don't trade Dudley!
yes!
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Aug 13, 2010 10:32 PM MDT up reply actions
The solution is to gang rebound, hustle, box out, and work together.
Turk is good at tipping the ball to a team-mate, and he’s smart. On Orlando, and on the Kings, he was the guy leaking out for transition offense – that’s not necessary on this team, nor is it appropriate for a PF.
Gentry will make rebounding a priority, and I think we’ll be better than last year.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
defense matters, rebounding doesn't as long as you stop them from scoring
that’s the point I was making.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
The team scoring
the most points wins more than 99 percent of all NBA games.
by suns68 on Aug 13, 2010 9:28 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
:) exactly
I didn’t really tough on that but the Suns mitigate their disadvantage in rebound-rate by allowing fewer rebound opportunities on their misses than the other team does.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
You’re pretty much confirming the only thing I could guess about the rebounding—that Coach Gentry’s plan of rebounding by committee will have to work at least as well.
who is confirming that?
My post explains that rebounding matters less than initial defense.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I’m answering more than one person. What Beavis said amounts to rebounding by committee, and Haremoor said the same thing more directly.
by 8472species on Aug 13, 2010 10:01 PM MDT up reply actions
Let me also point out that gang rebounding DID NOT WORK during our mid-season slump where we went 12-18. It did work during our 14-3 start and our last 15 games when Lopez was hurt. It takes determination, extra effort… Can our forwards do that for an entire season or will we see another slump?
Although, I’m not too worried about our rebounding it still is a concern. I just wish that Turk was a better rebounder. How can that guy not average at least Dirk Nowitzki like rebound numbers?
Don't trade Dudley!
You’ve got me. How could Amare Stoudemire not do it either? What’s the sound of one hand clapping? Who is John Galt?
by 8472species on Aug 13, 2010 10:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Well, Amar’e is at least a decent rebounder for a guy his size. Turk is a poor rebounder for a guy his size. Turk should at least be getting 8pg for his career while Amar’e 10+pg his career because he also has hops.
Don't trade Dudley!
I’d like to guess that it’s about motivation, but I guess that can’t be true, because Turkoglu didn’t play for a bad team until last season.
by 8472species on Aug 13, 2010 10:30 PM MDT up reply actions
I think we have the best back-court in the league behind the lakers. Just saying.
Don't trade Dudley!
kobe + Fish < Nash and rich in regular season , Kobe and Fish> Nash and Rich playoffs.
For every sunset, there will always be a sunrise.
You can just remove Fish from that equation.
His job nowadays is to walk the ball past half court and shoot open threes at an average rate. He would have been perfect for the Heat.
Oh, and tell Kobe when he’s acting like a child.
You really can't overestimate the value of that last job
Since he’s the ONLY freakin player in the league Kobe will listen to. I’m of the opinion that Fisher’s ability to screw Kobe’s head on straight was at least as important to the team as the acquisition of Gasol.
I agree there
in that Fisher is what spurned the winning, then Gasol helped keep it going.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 10:05 AM MDT up reply actions
No, just Kobe. When you have the best player in the league in you backcourt than you have the best backcourt in the league.
Nash, J-Rich, Childress and Dragic are better than any other team though.
Don't trade Dudley!
They have nothing on the Timberwolves with their bazillion point guards.
Steve Nash is my mancrush. But Goran Dragic is the 2nd coming of Manu Ginobili, which makes him just as tasty.
Yeah but Fisher is...
kind of like the nice man, holding the leash on a bad dog. Without him, Kobe runs rampant and shoots the Lakers out of games (even more than he does now).
He's also the president of the National Basketball Players Association (the player's union)
I guess anyone who can run Bryant is a shoe in for that job.
I think we owned the guard battle
Mainly because Dragic/Barbosa was vastly superior to ANYTHING on the Lakers bench.
You have to think in terms of percentages...
The key thing to note is that rebounds are the consequence of failure, i.e when someone misses a shot, so rebounds matter in context. For instance, if a team gets 40 rebounds total, and a player gets 10 of that 40, that’s more meaningful than if a player got 10 rebounds, but now of an an available 50, say. 25% vs 20%.
But, we focus too much on individual quantity stats, and not enough about team rebounding. I was never upset with Amare when he got only 6 or 7 boards, provided he boxed-out and blocked, allowed his teammates to get the ball, and make sure we won the rebounding contest from a percentage perspective. It never bothers me when Nash gets 7 or 8 boards.
The thing that’s most important, imho, is to deny offensive boards. IMHO, offensive boards are worth more than defensive boards, because they allow play to continue (also see blocking the ball out of bounds), i.e they give the team with possession a second chance (think of it like a +1 free throw). So any defensive rebounding scheme must focus on denying the opposition their offensive boards. Reduce that percentage, and you reduce the number of shots on goal.
And that has always been our rebounding problem, at least in the Nash era, we allow too many offensive boards: 2nd worst, by off rbs/game last season (haven’t calculated percentages, but we were bad).. And if you don’t think that’s critically important, I have two words: Ron Artest.
"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".
by Pliny the Elder on Aug 13, 2010 11:45 PM MDT reply actions
that's what the defensive rebound rate means
in the first table in the post. The Suns were 29th in the league in defensive rebound RATE (meaning, the percentage of time they grabbed that available rebound on the opponent’s missed shot)
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Your numbers r cool...
But they don’t reveal anything we didn’t already know. The sun’s moves this offseason insured another season in the playoffs, but they still won’t be able to beat the leagues elite in the playoffs. All the suns did is make themselves a little worse than they were last year while financially handcuffing themselves in the future. That being said I am expected at least a 3 seed from them this year :)
by forget on Aug 14, 2010 2:41 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
really?
you knew the Suns were one of the best in the league at forcing contested spot-ups, and one of the worst in defending isolation sets?
Even so, its nice to see numbers prove it out.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Well, yeah...
D’Antoni’s whole defensive scheme was to let them have outside shotsso that they would shoot early in the shot clock, and so we could more easily run off of long rebounds. That’s carried over with Gentry.
And, yeah, anyone who’s watched Tony Parker v. the Suns in the last half a decade should understand that we’re not good at defending Iso’s that start up top, or the ball guy on pnr’s.
I think Gentry's scheme is a little different than D'Antoni's
but the principles are the same, as you say.
still, its nice to see numbers that prove it’s working as designed (though the iso defense could be a lot better)
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 10:08 AM MDT up reply actions
So does this mean that Grant isn't the 'lockdown' perimeter defender
We all think he is? Or just that Nash really is that bad on the perimeter? Or that somebody on the wing is sucking defensively? (who?)
thats a good idea for a post
on that alone: Suns defense against isolations, and how they are the worst in the league…
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 10:27 AM MDT up reply actions
folks, I added an 'edit' right below the table people don't like
with an explanation as to how Amare could possibly be ranked higher than Lou on defense, and how Josh Smith was the worst of all of them.
basically, Gentry his Amare’s limitations better than Lou’s and better than the other coaches. Josh Smith in particular.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
I wonder why Josh Smith spent so much time defending perimeter shooters. 34.5% seems extremely excessive
since he spent all his time at power forward. Did they have him defending small forwards? Were they putting him on the opponents best scorer regardless of position? Are there a lot of three point shooting power forwards in the east? In his division?
Did Amare spend that much time defending perimeter shooters? What was his rate, Alex?
Where do Lopez and Frye fall in these categories?
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
I'll talk about them another time
but they held their own last year. Both rated fairly well in pts/play defensively.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions
The problem with Josh Smith's numbers...
…is Mike Woodson’s defensive scheme. Did anyone here watch a Hawk’s game last year? Woodson had them switch everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, on the perimeter, and relied on JSmoove and Horford to be mobile enough to defend out there.
For the Hawks, the guy switching off was often Bibby, who is a horrific on-ball defender, and is much better playing passing lanes or rotating over to take charges (hmmm…sounds familiar). So having Smith or Horford on an island up top against a ballhandler did not, in many cases, represent a downgrade in on-ball defense for them.
Because the Hawks have some nice shotblockers, and a lot of mobile feet out there to play help defense, most of these situations did not result in Smith getting blownby for a layup. They instead ended up with a shooter taking the big to his favorite outside “spot” and knocking down his favorite jumper.
Point is, Smith is actually a very good outside defender… for his position. It’s just he had to defend a lot of PGs and SGs outside, by himself.
good points
these numbers really dont tell us who are skilled defenders, only who are most effective given the opportunities they are given.
One thing I’ll say though is that Horford rated really high defensively (17th overall). He spent most of his time defending postups and isolations and did very well, and relatively small amount of time defending spot-up shooters.
What this tells me is that the Hawks did kind of a box-switching defense with 4 guys on the wing, with Horford staying down low with the opposition’s biggest guy (and doing very well on that). So the scheme is good for Horford (who surprisingly complained a lot) and terrible for Smith.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 10:05 AM MDT up reply actions
Man it's cool
when the stats can actually tell us something that’s relevant to the game, in terms of seeing it with our own eyeballs.
Most of them just seem to give a feel for “X player is good at this, or that.”
I think Horford's complaints were basically
that he was getting beat up trying to defend the opponents biggest player ALL the time. He’s pretty small for a center, y’know?
Also, if I were Hawk’s management looking at these sorts of stats, I would be asking myself, “why do I want to move Horford to PF?” Clearly he’s good at defending centers.
right
but then Hawks’ mgmt is probably also seeing that Josh Smith’s skills are being wasted in the current scheme. He’s being put in positions at which he’s really bad.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 10:29 AM MDT up reply actions
Hey, I like these stats. You think we could get them for our perimeter players now?
Don't trade Dudley!
I’m still a little confused with these stats though. Smith is considered a great defender yet Hedo is a much better at defending the isolation and post than he is according to the stats. Does this mean that Hedo is actually a decent defender and that Smith isn’t what they make him out to be? Both are terrible spot up defenders.
Don't trade Dudley!
all the numbers say
is that people scored more often on Josh Smith than his reputation suggests. Seems he was put in a position (on the wing, thanks to constant switching) that made him look real bad.
The other thing to consider is volume. Josh Smith’s terrible rating is well-earned on a lot of opps, while Hedo’s “good” post-up defense numbers are probably a mirage because he only defended the post a tiny % of the time.
I added a note above that next time I’ll include a hint at volume, so you can surmise how reasonable the numbers are, rather than just look at overall ranking.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Also, according to these stats, Warrick looks like a good perimeter defender and a terrible post up defender. Is that right? Is he really fast enough to keep up with other SF’s and SG’s?
Don't trade Dudley!
Warrick's numbers
were on a small volume, since he only played 20 mins a game. But yes, it looks like he had more success defending jumpshots than the post.
The Suns can hide this by always putting Frye or Lopez on the other team’s tall postup player. Very few teams have good postup players, and very very few have 2 tall ones they want to play at the same time. Anyone 6’8" or under, Hill or Duds can guard instead.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
How many teams have a postup offense guy in their 2nd string?
My ballpark number would be 0. You have a good post-up player, he usually starts.
let me rephrase the statement
how many teams have 2 guys on their team over 6’9" who can effectively score in post-up situations?
And, how many offenses employ this tactic anyway, seeing as how it can really bog down your offense?
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
You have to take these stats in context -
They tell a part of the story, but certainly not all of it. For instance, Amar’e, except for his post up numbers, looks like a much better defender than Gasol, which is not the case. There are a lot of mitigating factors that go into this, and these are just one insight into a multi-faceted attemp to quantify overall production. I would hesitate to say the Warrick was ‘terrible’ at post defense, nor would I be quick to say that he is a good perimeter defender.
Overall, it’s about scoring more points than the opposition. Using stats like these, you might think the Suns finished at the bottom of the league last year, instead of being one of the 4 top teams in the league.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
Those #s make sense though
Since Warrick is mobile for his position, but underweight, he should be good at defending PF’s in faceups, but not on the block.
You'll have to keep us apprised of these stats as the season goes along, Alex...
It’ll be fun to see the games and then see the changes in efficiency based on certain matchups and situations.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
On the flip side
For whatever trouble hedo has matching up with opposing 4 men,The other team will have a hard time matching up with hedo it works both ways I dont think it will be a huge discrepency.were going to be ok…..go suns………..!!!
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