Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Dan Marino Starting College For Developmentally Disabled

Suns Rising: Rebounding And Defensive Success Are Two Different Animals

Hopefully, this won't make your head hurt.

I signed up for Synergy Sports this morning to help answer a question that's been brewing in my mind. I keep hearing how the Suns' rebounding will suffer with Turkoglu and Warrick taking over for Amare and Lou at the PF position. That's certainly true.

But does poorer rebounding mean the Suns' defense will be worse?

No. At least, not necessarily.

Contrary to popular belief, your number of rebounds does not directly correlate to your defensive success. And, the Suns defense should actually be able to IMPROVE this season, despite the rebounding issues.

Want proof? You got it (thanks to Synergy Sports).

Star-divide

Take a look at the rankings of the 8 Western Conference playoff teams in 2009-2010:

2009-2010 Ranking
WC Seed Def RR Off RR Pts/Play Pts/Poss
LA Lakers 1 9 7 6 5
Dallas 2 15 26 8 12
Phoenix 3 29 8 15 19
Utah 4 5 13 12 11
Denver 5 25 19 15 16
Portland 6 7 4 15 13
San Antonio 7 4 13 8 9
OKC Thunder 8 16 3 1 8

Description of the columns:

  • WC Seed: playoff seeding in the 2010 Western Conference playoffs
  • Def RR: the rate at which a team rebounds the other team's missed shots (those not grabbed are offensive rebounds for the other team)
  • Off RR: the rate at which a team rebounds their own missed shots
  • Pts/Play: an advanced stat taken from SynergySports.com, the number of points scored on each play (offensive rebounds do not count here)
  • Pts/Poss: the number of points scored on each possession (this one takes offensive rebounds into account). This is generally called 'Defensive Efficiency'.

This table is a great illustration that Defensive Rebounding prowess does not directly correlate to a team's defensive success

There seem to be 2 parts of overall Defensive Efficiency: initial defense (resulting in a shot attempt, shooting foul or turnover) and second-chance defense (otherwise known as defensive rebounding).

A team can be good at defensive rebounding, but that doesn't matter if the opponent makes a lot of shots. In other words, you can't rebound a shot that goes through the hoop. Conversely, a team can mitigate their rebounding deficiency by playing better defense before the shot even goes up.

Initial Defense is the 'Pts/Play' column in the above table. As you can see, the Suns were tied for worst in Points Per Play among playoff teams. But being middle of the pack (15th) overall in the entire league helped them make the playoffs, despite being the second-worst defensive rebounding team in the NBA.

Second-chance defense is the prevention of offensive rebounds to extend the play. The Suns were very bad at preventing these, proven in their 29th-ranked 'defensive rebound rate'.

Defensive Efficiency - the 'Pts/Poss' column in the above table - takes both initial defense and second-chance defense into account.

The Suns initial defense ranked 15th, second-chance defense ranked 29th, resulting in an overall defensive efficiency (pts/poss) of 19th. Being the second-worst defensive rebounding team hurt the Suns, but not as much as you might expect.

Take a look at OKC and Portland. Portland was a much better defensive rebounding team than OKC (4th vs. 16th), yet finished with a worse overall Defensive Efficiency (13th vs. 8th) because Portland's initial defense was poor by comparison to OKC (15th vs. 1st).

So what does this mean to the Suns?

This: If our favorite team is going to struggle to rebound the ball, they can offset some of that with better initial defense.

Let's break down the Suns' initial defense.

Play - Ends in FGA, TO FTs %Time League Rank on pts/play
Overall 100% 15
Isolation 13.1% 27
P&R Ballhandler 9.1% 30
Post-Up 10.6% 7
P&R Roll Man 4.3% 13
Spot-Up 19.3% 4
Off Screen 3.6% 12
Hand Off 2.4% 22
Cut 8.5% 5
Offensive Rebound 6.4% 14
Transition 12.5% 11
All Other Plays 5.7% 20

Spot-ups were a big part of the Suns defensive scheme

These numbers are quite illuminating. If you thought the opposing team was shooting A LOT of open jumpers last season, you were right. In fact, spot-up jumpshots comprised 19.3% of all plays, by far the most common result of a play against the Suns defense. The Suns schemed for it. They WANTED the other team to take jumpers.

And they were pretty good at defending it (ranking 4th overall in fewest points/play on spot-ups). Sometimes, a good defense is forcing a contested spot-up or inducing the opponent to have their worst shooter take the open shot. Being left open for a jump-shot is a lot of pressure, especially if you're not a great shooter.

The Suns excelled at this type of defense last season, a primary component of the 15th overall ranking in initial defense.

 

The Suns really sucked at guarding the man on the perimeter with the ball

While the Suns were great when the ball was passed to a spot-up shooter (or into low post - 7th overall), they were absolutely horrendous when the primary ballhandler kept it for himself.

A whopping 22.2% of the time, the opposition's play ended either in an isolation (13.1%) or pick-n-roll ballhandler talking the shot or driving to the basket (9.1%). If the Suns couldn't force the dribbler to give it up, they were in deep trouble. Deep trouble to the tune of 27th overall against the 'iso' and 30th against the 'p&r ballhandler' plays. Ouch.

This indicates a couple of things: (1) the Suns played passive defense against the ballhandler to protect the paint against the roll man, and (2) the Suns did not have a lot of good individual defenders. Our best on-ball defender, in terms of numbers last season, was Dragic - though he was much better defending iso's than the p&r ballhandler, while Steve Nash was the opposite.

This isn't just about guards either. The Forwards contributed to the poor defense against isolation plays.

Replacing Leandro Barbosa's perimeter minutes with Josh Childress (as well as a couple of Amare's minutes) should be able to help in this regard. Childress had a reputation as a good on-ball defender, as well as a good help defender, while Barbosa was poor at both.

(SynergySports has only posted 2009-2010 numbers, so Childress' numbers are unavailable)

 

Warrick and Turkoglu replacing Amare and Lou

Hakim Warrick and Hedo Turkoglu (replacing Amare and Lou) are a mixed bag at best.

Listed is their overall ranking in each major defensive situation, against the rest of the NBA players (roughly 450-500 players).

 

Lou Amare Hakim Hedo Boozer Bosh Gasol J Smith Varejao
Overall 204 95 280 339 95 170 147 353 204
Isolation 253 259 10 51 35 16 177 232 63
Post-Up 141 157 294 51 149 114 187 197 157
Spot-Up 47 47 29 296 131 252 81 296 81

Edit: this table has caused a lot of angst, which is my fault. I am not showing you the distribution, only the ranking. Next time, I'll show more details if you want.

Lou has a worse overall points/play ranking than Amare (204th vs. 95th) because, while both are bad at defending isolation, Lou had to do it a LOT more often than Amare (27% vs. 16%). So, Lou's final pts/play numbers are a little worse than Amare, hence the lower ranking.

Josh Smith, despite his defensive rep, is worse than anyone on here. That's not a mirage. Unfortunately, it seems that his team forced him to defend something he's terrible at defending, a lot more often than ever before: spot-up jump shooting. Rather than being under the basket, Smith spent a lot of time on the perimeter last season. Smith gave up 1.08 points for every jump shot taken against him. 1.08! That's terrible. What's even worse is that he had to defend this type of play more than 34% of the time he was doing anything.

So, Amare's fault were hidden, while Smith's were exposed.  Kudos to Gentry on that.

 

Hakim and Hedo are better against isolation (they are more mobile in space, I guess), but much worse than the two Suns they replace in either post-up or spot-up situations. I'm guessing Turkoglu's numbers in these areas are throw-away. His post-up defense numbers are on a small sample size, and the Suns' scheme should improve his spot-up numbers significantly.

I threw in numbers from other well-known or recently-desired PFs for comparison. Amare and Lou were far and away better than the field in spot-up defense, so I have to attribute some of that to the Suns' scheme. And they were by far the worst in isolation defense.

Since isolations, by design, are scheme-free, would we assume that Lou and Amare were just bad fits in that area? Or does the Suns' scheme somehow make matters worse on iso's? They certainly ranked near the bottom overall in that area.

Feel free to infer whatever else you want to infer from the numbers posted. Is Amare really a better defender than those other guys up there? Maybe not, but the numbers are the numbers. If nothing else, they show relative comparison to each other though each team's defensive scheme must play a part.

 

Summation

The Suns can be better defensively this season, despite the potential rebounding deficit, if they focus on improving their initial defense (plays ending in shots, free throws or turnovers).

On the perimeter, the addition of Childress and continued improvement from Dragic should allow them to turn up the heat on perimeter defense (increased steals?) and be better at isolations and pick-n-rolls. Any improvement on defending iso's and ballhandlers would be a huge boon to the overall numbers.

The Suns' post-up defense should not suffer, as long as they put Lopez or Frye on him while pairing Warrick/Turkoglu against the face-up guy. Only teams who play 2 post-up players at the same time would give the Suns trouble (Lakers). But then, how many teams besides the Lakers even have two 6'9" and taller post-up players in their lineup at the same time?

Given the problems the Suns are likely to have in stopping second-chance points (ie. defensive rebounding), they will need to improve their initial defense from 15th overall to somewhere around 10th or higher.

And if you look at the numbers, and the guys the Suns brought in, this goal is reachable.

Go Suns!

Comment 99 comments  |  1 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Ditto.

There isn't a single acceptable situation for the question "Is this game almost over yet?" Not one.

by Basketball GF on Aug 13, 2010 4:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

Very, very interesting.

I would have though Hedo would rank much lower against post-ups and higher against spot-ups – this looks pretty promising. I think Grant might be able to help both Hakim and Hedo improve, especially in our system.
     Great post, Alex. I think you blew my mind.

Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy

by haremoor on Aug 13, 2010 5:11 PM MDT reply actions  

I'm curious too.

A lot of those defensive numbers paint quite a different picture than conventional wisdom.

Maybe there are issues that effect the numbers but aren’t included in the computation, like tendency to guard an opposing team’s backup versus their starter, or spending a lot of time playing out of position, or perhaps being expected to play help defense more than average.

Numbers are important to me though. When the equation is right, the answer is never wrong and these are interesting numbers to dig through.

by waxmonkey on Aug 13, 2010 6:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

I tend to agree with you - I think it's our system.

I also think that a little bit can change those numbers a lot – in other words, a small change could raise or lower your ranking quite a bit. Also, East teams seem to me to generally be bigger and slower, with more post up and isolation, which could skew the numbers a bit, too.
     I haven’t watched Atlanta a lot, but it seems to me that the individual players are on their own quite a bit. As far as Amar’e looking so good on spot ups – he seemed to get a lot better at not leaving his feet and getting a hand in the face – most of his spot ups are on the baseline, and he’s pretty big and scary, and decent at not fouling spot up shooters. It seems to me he got some help, too.

Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy

by haremoor on Aug 13, 2010 8:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

yes, agreed
a little bit can change those numbers a lot

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 13, 2010 9:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

Isn't a lot of it based on matchups too?

We tend to stick Amar’e on the opposing teams’ weaker big men while Robin or Channing guarded the opposing teams’ better big men.

Guys like Smith are known for being good defenders, so he usually gets the defensive assignment on the better offensive big men like Boozer or KG.

Steve Nash is my mancrush. But Goran Dragic is the 2nd coming of Manu Ginobili, which makes him just as tasty.

by NashMV3 on Aug 13, 2010 10:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm sure the matchups

have a lot to do with it, as well as scheme.

overall, I like the team defense numbers better than the individual ones. Until I figure them out better, anyway.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 13, 2010 10:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

every one of these numbers is backed by video

quite incredible. every single play has video on it.

so, I looked at Josh Smith’s spot-up defense vs. Amare’s spot-up defense, and the big difference is that Smith seems to have been paired up against really good outside shooters (Rashard Lewis, for example) while Amare was really paired up against poor shooters (Antonio McDyess).

So, component of this is how exposed you were to a great offensive player.

Though I do give credit to Amare: when he DID contest the spot-up, he did so with good extension getting up to the player’s release point, while Josh Smith would often just stay where he was and put a hand up flat-footed.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 7:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

Makes me feel better

I’ve felt al along that we aren’t going to be as bad as the pundits are saying. Thanks for putting these numbers together. I was shocked that Amare was rated much higher than Gasol.

by sunznut on Aug 13, 2010 5:43 PM MDT reply actions  

Wow...! My brain is straight smoldering after reading this...

Good analysis…I really hope it pans out…

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....!

by Daryl Ray on Aug 13, 2010 5:52 PM MDT reply actions  

I guess i just dont understand those defensive numbers.

All Lou’s numbers were even or better than Amare’s yet he ranks 204th vs Amare’s 95. There must be something missing. I need some further explanation how all that works. Those numbers just don’t jive with me.

BTW those can’t be right about smith. He is overall ranked the 353rd defensive player. I’m confused I thought he was close to making all defensive team this year. Explain pozhalyusta (Russian for please).

by Suns Fan For Life on Aug 13, 2010 6:25 PM MDT reply actions  

well, probably number of minutes plays a part

Amare did it on 34 mins a night, while lou on only 15

and I only showed the main 3 numbers (that make up 80-90% of the defensive assignments), so Lou must have been worse in other areas.

can’t explain Josh Smith at all. No idea who it came out like that. But as far as ‘DPOY’ talk, that’s just talk. Doesn’t need to be based in reality.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 13, 2010 9:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

I confirmed it

the whole ranking is based on volume per type of defensive play. The overall ranking (Amare at 95, Lou at 204 and Josh Smith at 353) is based on total pts/play across ALL defensive plays across the entire season.

Amare and Lou were both bad at defending isolation sets (.94 to .95 pts/play), yet Lou had to do so a lot more often than Amare did (27% vs. 16%). When the numbers were all tolled, Lou’s overall pts/play ended up worse than 203 other guys because he spent more of his time than they did defending something he wasn’t good at defending.

This is likely due to the fact that Lou played the other team’s second unit, which has more iso’s because they are a cobbled-together group of inidividual players.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 7:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

and Josh Smith is another example of the same

he was horrible (and I mean horrible) at defending the spot-up shooter on the perimeter. In looking at video, he rarely charged at the shooter with an attempt to disrupt. It was always a half-assed wave of the hand or a run-by for a fast break leak-out.

So the spot-up shooters made a LOT of shots of Josh Smith (1.08 pts/shot!). He’s just not good at defending the perimeter.

Well, unfortunately for him, he did that a lot last season (34.5% of his defensive plays) and it affected his entire game. The preponderance of times that he was put on an island to defend a perimeter player, and failed at it, really hurt his pts/play numbers.

It could be that Smith was the sacrificial lamb for the team, but you would think the coach would see what’s not working and change it.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 8:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

Damn, Alex, you're going to be dangerous with this new database.

Not much room for the rectal database anymore.

Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy

by haremoor on Aug 14, 2010 8:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

So......Stoudemire was actually a pretty good defender?

That’s what stood out to me. I think a lot of us have figured, “yeah, Hedo’s gonna suck at D but he’s replacing Amare and Amare wasn’t that good either.” By these numbers, we may have downgraded even more than many of us thought.

Interesting, thought-provoking post, but these numbers don’t pass the smell test for me. Amare is a better defender than Varejao, Gasol and Louuuuuu? Josh Smith is terrible and Varejao is just average? It doesn’t appear that way watching the games.

by East Bay Ray on Aug 13, 2010 7:23 PM MDT reply actions  

agreed

I was just showing what I found though, and the site is very respected.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 13, 2010 9:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

and it is possible that

defensive reputations vary from reality, too

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 13, 2010 9:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

check my comment right above this

Overall, these numbers don’t require a smell test. The fact is that Josh Smith gave up more points/play than Amare did, by a lot. All those guys did.

You can surmise that those other guys were often put on an island to defend the opponent’s best frontcourt player, while Amare was “hidden” in the Suns scheme better. But across the board, players scored less on Amare than they did on all those other guys.

(by the way, there is video on every single one of these plays, so the numbers are real. Its quite amazing really)

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 8:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

It's not that I don't believe the accuracy of the data

I just think that the numbers tell a limited story of how good a defensive player these guys are. But, it looks like others have already covered that topic.

by East Bay Ray on Aug 15, 2010 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

We have the size it's just in the back court.

Hill pg, Clark sg, Turkoglu sf, Frye pf, Lopez c. With this line up the opposing guards have to guard someone 6’8" or taller. Get them in the post 5ft from the basket and go over them. If they double team the post the our big fellas roll to the basket or swing the ball to the open man. If this line up can’t rebound and defend we never will. I know what I’ve said isn’t exactly related to the article… just another Suns fan contemplating the nature of the basketball universe. :-D

by Sunderstruck on Aug 13, 2010 7:31 PM MDT reply actions  

So the defense won’t be much worse, possibly better, and is not connected to the rebounding. Great. But what about the rebounding? What’s the solution?

by 8472species on Aug 13, 2010 8:51 PM MDT reply actions  

Last year Lopez got about 7 rebounds per game when starting. With him, Amar’e, Lou and Frye we were the 5th best rebounding team in the league during the span when Lopez entered the starting lineup to when he went down with the injury. 5th! They combined for about 25 rebounds a game;9, 7, 5, 4.

Take out Amar’e and Lou and throw in Turk and Warrick. We obviously get worse; 4, 7, 5, 4. Warrick will probably give us less with less minutes, so more like 2. Who’s going to make up for the other 7 rebounds per game? Turk will have to improve and at least give us 5. I expect and hope that Frye and Lopez will both improve giving us at least 8 by Robin and 6 by Frye. Overall, next year it will be 8,6, 5, 2 by our front-court. That’s 21 rebounds per game by our front-court.

Yes, it won’t be good enough for 5th best in the league, but it will probably be good enough for middle pack in the league. As long as someone other than Warrick doesn’t get hurt we won’t be as bad as people think we will. With an improved defense and decent rebounding to go along with a great offense, how could we not make the playoffs?

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Aug 13, 2010 9:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

Also, some may ask,“How could they have been the 5th best rebounding team during that span when the front-court only combined for 25?” Because our forwards J-Rich, Hill and Dudley can all crash the boards. Now add Josh Childress to that mix who has averaged around 5-6 rpg through his career.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Aug 13, 2010 9:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think you’re considerably underestimating the amount of minutes Warrick will see.

by waxmonkey on Aug 13, 2010 10:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

I view him as the 10th man getting Lou like minutes. I could be wrong. Maybe Gentry plans to have all his backups get about 20mpg. That means Frye would see a 7min decrease and Dudley about a 4min decrease. Chill would also get about a 10min decrease.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Aug 13, 2010 10:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

i thnk you're just underestimating them

because they haven’t played a game. Suns are not going to pay 10 mil a yr for those guys to play such few minutes. And those guys are too good to play so little.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 13, 2010 11:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

You could say the same about Nash, J-Rich, Lopez and Turk though. All those guys deserve 30mpg next season. That means that all the other 6 players can get 20mpg each. If anyone of them is going to get less than 20 it will probably be Warrick.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Aug 13, 2010 11:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

We also know that Gentry doesn't have a 'preset number of minutes'

sheet that he works off of – if someone is playing well, they will stay in.

Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy

by haremoor on Aug 14, 2010 8:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

I put up a post last month

proving that, as long as every player MATCHES last years rebound-per-minute output, the Suns would only lose 2 rebounds a game.

Childress > LB on rebounding.
Warrick and Turk will get likely fewer total minutes than Amare and Lou did, meaning others with higher rebound rates will play.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 13, 2010 9:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

Still, we won’t be good enough to be 5th best in the league. 11-19 is where I’m guessing we will be for that season. With a decent defense, decent rebounding, great offense and great bench how could we not be a contender?

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Aug 13, 2010 10:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

The solution is to gang rebound, hustle, box out, and work together.

Turk is good at tipping the ball to a team-mate, and he’s smart. On Orlando, and on the Kings, he was the guy leaking out for transition offense – that’s not necessary on this team, nor is it appropriate for a PF.
    Gentry will make rebounding a priority, and I think we’ll be better than last year.

Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy

by haremoor on Aug 13, 2010 9:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

The team scoring

the most points wins more than 99 percent of all NBA games.

by suns68 on Aug 13, 2010 9:28 PM MDT via mobile reply actions  

:) exactly

I didn’t really tough on that but the Suns mitigate their disadvantage in rebound-rate by allowing fewer rebound opportunities on their misses than the other team does.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 13, 2010 9:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

You’re pretty much confirming the only thing I could guess about the rebounding—that Coach Gentry’s plan of rebounding by committee will have to work at least as well.

by 8472species on Aug 13, 2010 9:45 PM MDT reply actions  

who is confirming that?

My post explains that rebounding matters less than initial defense.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 13, 2010 9:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I’m answering more than one person. What Beavis said amounts to rebounding by committee, and Haremoor said the same thing more directly.

by 8472species on Aug 13, 2010 10:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

Let me also point out that gang rebounding DID NOT WORK during our mid-season slump where we went 12-18. It did work during our 14-3 start and our last 15 games when Lopez was hurt. It takes determination, extra effort… Can our forwards do that for an entire season or will we see another slump?

Although, I’m not too worried about our rebounding it still is a concern. I just wish that Turk was a better rebounder. How can that guy not average at least Dirk Nowitzki like rebound numbers?

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Aug 13, 2010 10:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

You’ve got me. How could Amare Stoudemire not do it either? What’s the sound of one hand clapping? Who is John Galt?

by 8472species on Aug 13, 2010 10:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, Amar’e is at least a decent rebounder for a guy his size. Turk is a poor rebounder for a guy his size. Turk should at least be getting 8pg for his career while Amar’e 10+pg his career because he also has hops.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Aug 13, 2010 10:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

RPG, not PG.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Aug 13, 2010 10:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

I’d like to guess that it’s about motivation, but I guess that can’t be true, because Turkoglu didn’t play for a bad team until last season.

by 8472species on Aug 13, 2010 10:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well, there is hope that he can have a career high in rebounding this year because the Suns tend to have a way at making people better.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Aug 13, 2010 10:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think we have the best back-court in the league behind the lakers. Just saying.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Aug 13, 2010 10:35 PM MDT reply actions  

You can just remove Fish from that equation.

His job nowadays is to walk the ball past half court and shoot open threes at an average rate. He would have been perfect for the Heat.

Oh, and tell Kobe when he’s acting like a child.

by waxmonkey on Aug 13, 2010 10:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

You really can't overestimate the value of that last job

Since he’s the ONLY freakin player in the league Kobe will listen to. I’m of the opinion that Fisher’s ability to screw Kobe’s head on straight was at least as important to the team as the acquisition of Gasol.

by jc79 on Aug 14, 2010 10:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

I agree there

in that Fisher is what spurned the winning, then Gasol helped keep it going.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 10:05 AM MDT up reply actions  

No, just Kobe. When you have the best player in the league in you backcourt than you have the best backcourt in the league.

Nash, J-Rich, Childress and Dragic are better than any other team though.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Aug 13, 2010 11:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

They have nothing on the Timberwolves with their bazillion point guards.

Steve Nash is my mancrush. But Goran Dragic is the 2nd coming of Manu Ginobili, which makes him just as tasty.

by NashMV3 on Aug 14, 2010 3:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

Yeah but Fisher is...

kind of like the nice man, holding the leash on a bad dog. Without him, Kobe runs rampant and shoots the Lakers out of games (even more than he does now).

by jc79 on Aug 14, 2010 7:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think we owned the guard battle

Mainly because Dragic/Barbosa was vastly superior to ANYTHING on the Lakers bench.

by jc79 on Aug 14, 2010 10:06 AM MDT up reply actions  

You have to think in terms of percentages...

The key thing to note is that rebounds are the consequence of failure, i.e when someone misses a shot, so rebounds matter in context. For instance, if a team gets 40 rebounds total, and a player gets 10 of that 40, that’s more meaningful than if a player got 10 rebounds, but now of an an available 50, say. 25% vs 20%.

But, we focus too much on individual quantity stats, and not enough about team rebounding. I was never upset with Amare when he got only 6 or 7 boards, provided he boxed-out and blocked, allowed his teammates to get the ball, and make sure we won the rebounding contest from a percentage perspective. It never bothers me when Nash gets 7 or 8 boards.

The thing that’s most important, imho, is to deny offensive boards. IMHO, offensive boards are worth more than defensive boards, because they allow play to continue (also see blocking the ball out of bounds), i.e they give the team with possession a second chance (think of it like a +1 free throw). So any defensive rebounding scheme must focus on denying the opposition their offensive boards. Reduce that percentage, and you reduce the number of shots on goal.

And that has always been our rebounding problem, at least in the Nash era, we allow too many offensive boards: 2nd worst, by off rbs/game last season (haven’t calculated percentages, but we were bad).. And if you don’t think that’s critically important, I have two words: Ron Artest.

"True glory consists of doing what deserves to be written, and writing what deserves to be read".

by Pliny the Elder on Aug 13, 2010 11:45 PM MDT reply actions  

that's what the defensive rebound rate means

in the first table in the post. The Suns were 29th in the league in defensive rebound RATE (meaning, the percentage of time they grabbed that available rebound on the opponent’s missed shot)

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 7:00 AM MDT up reply actions  

Your numbers r cool...

But they don’t reveal anything we didn’t already know. The sun’s moves this offseason insured another season in the playoffs, but they still won’t be able to beat the leagues elite in the playoffs. All the suns did is make themselves a little worse than they were last year while financially handcuffing themselves in the future. That being said I am expected at least a 3 seed from them this year :)

by forget on Aug 14, 2010 2:41 AM MDT via mobile reply actions  

really?

you knew the Suns were one of the best in the league at forcing contested spot-ups, and one of the worst in defending isolation sets?

Even so, its nice to see numbers prove it out.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 7:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well, yeah...

D’Antoni’s whole defensive scheme was to let them have outside shotsso that they would shoot early in the shot clock, and so we could more easily run off of long rebounds. That’s carried over with Gentry.

And, yeah, anyone who’s watched Tony Parker v. the Suns in the last half a decade should understand that we’re not good at defending Iso’s that start up top, or the ball guy on pnr’s.

by jc79 on Aug 14, 2010 10:00 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think Gentry's scheme is a little different than D'Antoni's

but the principles are the same, as you say.

still, its nice to see numbers that prove it’s working as designed (though the iso defense could be a lot better)

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 10:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

So does this mean that Grant isn't the 'lockdown' perimeter defender

We all think he is? Or just that Nash really is that bad on the perimeter? Or that somebody on the wing is sucking defensively? (who?)

by jc79 on Aug 14, 2010 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions  

thats a good idea for a post

on that alone: Suns defense against isolations, and how they are the worst in the league…

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 10:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well yeah

Anyone who watches the games can see that Kobe, b-Roy, and players like that killed us in isos and PnRs… and as for allowing spot up jumpers, I’m sure every team is similiar in that category anyway…

by forget on Aug 14, 2010 12:31 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

folks, I added an 'edit' right below the table people don't like

with an explanation as to how Amare could possibly be ranked higher than Lou on defense, and how Josh Smith was the worst of all of them.

basically, Gentry his Amare’s limitations better than Lou’s and better than the other coaches. Josh Smith in particular.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 8:30 AM MDT reply actions  

I wonder why Josh Smith spent so much time defending perimeter shooters. 34.5% seems extremely excessive

since he spent all his time at power forward. Did they have him defending small forwards? Were they putting him on the opponents best scorer regardless of position? Are there a lot of three point shooting power forwards in the east? In his division?

Did Amare spend that much time defending perimeter shooters? What was his rate, Alex?

by waxmonkey on Aug 14, 2010 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

Now i see Jc’s post on Hawk’s switching below. That could very well account for a lot of it.

I’m still curious about Amare’s numbers in this regard.

by waxmonkey on Aug 14, 2010 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

Where do Lopez and Frye fall in these categories?

Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy

by haremoor on Aug 14, 2010 9:54 AM MDT reply actions  

I'll talk about them another time

but they held their own last year. Both rated fairly well in pts/play defensively.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

The problem with Josh Smith's numbers...

…is Mike Woodson’s defensive scheme. Did anyone here watch a Hawk’s game last year? Woodson had them switch everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, on the perimeter, and relied on JSmoove and Horford to be mobile enough to defend out there.

For the Hawks, the guy switching off was often Bibby, who is a horrific on-ball defender, and is much better playing passing lanes or rotating over to take charges (hmmm…sounds familiar). So having Smith or Horford on an island up top against a ballhandler did not, in many cases, represent a downgrade in on-ball defense for them.

Because the Hawks have some nice shotblockers, and a lot of mobile feet out there to play help defense, most of these situations did not result in Smith getting blownby for a layup. They instead ended up with a shooter taking the big to his favorite outside “spot” and knocking down his favorite jumper.

Point is, Smith is actually a very good outside defender… for his position. It’s just he had to defend a lot of PGs and SGs outside, by himself.

by jc79 on Aug 14, 2010 9:56 AM MDT reply actions  

good points

these numbers really dont tell us who are skilled defenders, only who are most effective given the opportunities they are given.

One thing I’ll say though is that Horford rated really high defensively (17th overall). He spent most of his time defending postups and isolations and did very well, and relatively small amount of time defending spot-up shooters.

What this tells me is that the Hawks did kind of a box-switching defense with 4 guys on the wing, with Horford staying down low with the opposition’s biggest guy (and doing very well on that). So the scheme is good for Horford (who surprisingly complained a lot) and terrible for Smith.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 10:05 AM MDT up reply actions  

Man it's cool

when the stats can actually tell us something that’s relevant to the game, in terms of seeing it with our own eyeballs.

Most of them just seem to give a feel for “X player is good at this, or that.”

by jc79 on Aug 14, 2010 10:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

I think Horford's complaints were basically

that he was getting beat up trying to defend the opponents biggest player ALL the time. He’s pretty small for a center, y’know?

Also, if I were Hawk’s management looking at these sorts of stats, I would be asking myself, “why do I want to move Horford to PF?” Clearly he’s good at defending centers.

by jc79 on Aug 14, 2010 10:11 AM MDT up reply actions  

right

but then Hawks’ mgmt is probably also seeing that Josh Smith’s skills are being wasted in the current scheme. He’s being put in positions at which he’s really bad.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 10:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

That’s it. I want Horford, not Josh Smith.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Aug 14, 2010 11:08 AM MDT up reply actions  

Hey, I like these stats. You think we could get them for our perimeter players now?

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Aug 14, 2010 11:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

I’m still a little confused with these stats though. Smith is considered a great defender yet Hedo is a much better at defending the isolation and post than he is according to the stats. Does this mean that Hedo is actually a decent defender and that Smith isn’t what they make him out to be? Both are terrible spot up defenders.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Aug 14, 2010 1:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

all the numbers say

is that people scored more often on Josh Smith than his reputation suggests. Seems he was put in a position (on the wing, thanks to constant switching) that made him look real bad.

The other thing to consider is volume. Josh Smith’s terrible rating is well-earned on a lot of opps, while Hedo’s “good” post-up defense numbers are probably a mirage because he only defended the post a tiny % of the time.

I added a note above that next time I’ll include a hint at volume, so you can surmise how reasonable the numbers are, rather than just look at overall ranking.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

Also, according to these stats, Warrick looks like a good perimeter defender and a terrible post up defender. Is that right? Is he really fast enough to keep up with other SF’s and SG’s?

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Aug 14, 2010 1:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

Warrick's numbers

were on a small volume, since he only played 20 mins a game. But yes, it looks like he had more success defending jumpshots than the post.

The Suns can hide this by always putting Frye or Lopez on the other team’s tall postup player. Very few teams have good postup players, and very very few have 2 tall ones they want to play at the same time. Anyone 6’8" or under, Hill or Duds can guard instead.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 1:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

How many teams have a postup offense guy in their 2nd string?

My ballpark number would be 0. You have a good post-up player, he usually starts.

by jc79 on Aug 14, 2010 7:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

Gotta agree with that.

Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy

by haremoor on Aug 14, 2010 7:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

let me rephrase the statement

how many teams have 2 guys on their team over 6’9" who can effectively score in post-up situations?

And, how many offenses employ this tactic anyway, seeing as how it can really bog down your offense?

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Aug 14, 2010 9:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

You have to take these stats in context -

They tell a part of the story, but certainly not all of it. For instance, Amar’e, except for his post up numbers, looks like a much better defender than Gasol, which is not the case. There are a lot of mitigating factors that go into this, and these are just one insight into a multi-faceted attemp to quantify overall production. I would hesitate to say the Warrick was ‘terrible’ at post defense, nor would I be quick to say that he is a good perimeter defender.
     Overall, it’s about scoring more points than the opposition. Using stats like these, you might think the Suns finished at the bottom of the league last year, instead of being one of the 4 top teams in the league.

Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy

by haremoor on Aug 14, 2010 1:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

I know, that’s why I was asking questions, thanks for the info.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Aug 14, 2010 2:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

Those #s make sense though

Since Warrick is mobile for his position, but underweight, he should be good at defending PF’s in faceups, but not on the block.

by jc79 on Aug 14, 2010 7:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

You'll have to keep us apprised of these stats as the season goes along, Alex...

It’ll be fun to see the games and then see the changes in efficiency based on certain matchups and situations.

Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy

by haremoor on Aug 14, 2010 12:35 PM MDT reply actions  

On the flip side

For whatever trouble hedo has matching up with opposing 4 men,The other team will have a hard time matching up with hedo it works both ways I dont think it will be a huge discrepency.were going to be ok…..go suns………..!!!

by stevedavis_ on Aug 14, 2010 7:11 PM MDT reply actions  

www.goladymall.com

ONLINE STORE——————- http://www.goladymall.com

we accept PAYPAL/credit card payment and all the products are the FREE shipping .

Air jordan(1-24)shoes $33

    UGG BOOT $50

    Nike shox(R4,NZ,OZ,TL1,TL2,TL3) $33

    Handbags(Coach lv fendi d&g) $33

    Tshirts (Polo ,ed hardy,lacoste) $16

    Jean(True Religion,ed hardy,coogi) $30

    Sunglasses(Oakey,coach,gucci,Armaini) $12

    New era cap $9
,
    Bikini (Ed hardy,polo) $18

    FREE SHIPPING
  http://www.goladymall.com

by xinyue284899 on Aug 17, 2010 6:22 PM MDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog devoted to all things Phoenix Suns.

Friend Us On Facebook

Follow us on Twitter

Follow BrightSideSun on Twitter

RSS Feeds

Bright Side Of The Sun Feeds


Managers

Seth_twitter_pic_4_small Seth Pollack

13531_1236944896270_1608674153_605227_1328752_n_small Wil Cantrell

Editors

Gortat_nash_dudley_small East Bay Ray

Authors

Divinginlevanto_small PHXgp

Eutychus_logo_small Eutychus

1216horry-autosized258_small Alex Laugan

Photo_3111433_9952_1451357_main_small 7footer