Denver and JSmith
by ninecharacters on Aug 30, 2010 2:29 PM MDT
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To keep Horford around the Hawks must avoid another 2nd Rd flop and develop greater mental toughness this season. JSmith finds a new team if the Hawks receive fair value in any trade. With DEN-Melo all but over the Nuggets can facilitate a JSmith-to-PHO deal. Assuming a Melo deal happens prior to the season opener, DEN overhauls its roster with this trade.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=25lujgp
PHO: JRich and Dudley for JSmith
+: JSmith only 24—JSmith-Lopez will tangle with Bynum-Gasol for yrs. to come
-: JRich perfectly complements Nash on the offensive end and his clutch scoring will be sorely missed; Dudley only starting to realize how good he can become—unfortunately Clark/picks in place of Dudley probably doesn’t convince DET to bite on this deal
DEN: Billups and Nene for JRich and Prince
+: provides Karl w/hard-working, team-first, high-IQ vets; sets Lawson up for a break-out yr. (Lawson/JRich one of the most athletic backcourt duos out there); JRich/Prince contracts expire in 2011
-: Nene underappreciated; Birdman plays major minutes unless Melo deal brings back a legit C (ie Brook Lopez); will be difficult to convince JRich or Prince to resign in the middle of what looks to be a tumultuous rebuilding yr.
ATL: JSmith, Bibby and Zaza for Billups and Nene
+: Hawks now don’t blink in close games against the EC elite; Horford moves over to PF; JJ no longer faces constant pressure to be the playmaker and can dish to Billups in late-game situations
-: no real legit backup C in a physical EC (if Nene logs more minutes watch for injuries or fatigue later in playoffs)—Boozer, Noah, Howard, Garnett and Shaq loom if Hawks advance to 2nd Rd
DET: Prince for Dudley, Bibby and Zaza
+: much upside to a young core of Stuckey-Bynum-Daye-Dudley-Jerebko-Monroe
-: Bynum wants to start and Bibby may resent significantly reduced minutes—PG and PF/C logjam (Maxiell anyone?) would have to be resolved in a later Rip trade
PHO
Nash/Dragic
Hill/JChill
Hedo/Clark
JSmith/Warrick/Lawal
Lopez/Frye
ATL
Billups/Crawford/Teague
JJ/Evans
Marvin
Horford/Thomas
Nene/Collins
DEN
Lawson/Johnson
JRich/JR/Afflalo
Prince/Melo
KMart/Harrington
Birdman
DET
Stuckey/Bibby/Bynum
Rip/Gordon/TMac
Daye/Dudley
Villanueva/Jerebko/Wilcox/Maxiell
Zaza/Monroe/Wallace
__ = likely traded before end of 10-11 season
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I hope the Hawks get eliminated again in the 2nd round again
That way Horford won’t sign an extension and we get a chance at him next summer.
In my opinion, we don't devote nearly enough scientific research to finding a cure for jerks. - Calvin
Hoo boy, ok I know a lot of us covet Josh Smith
But for three other teams to overhaul their roster with one monstrous trade? These things just don’t happen. Ever.
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
by RMason on Aug 30, 2010 2:42 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
Never say never(We got Shaq), but yea I agree with you. It won’t happen as most trades go, but you should at least give the guy credit for thinking about this one. For a trade that will never happen I actually think it makes sense.
Don't trade Dudley!
Yeah
It’s not easy to put a massive trade like this one together and not have it come out bat-shit insane.
This isn’t bad all around, assuming Denver is looking to blow it up and rebuild (Melo leaves) and Detroit is willing move Prince for Dudley.
J-Rich and Dudley for J Smith isn’t worth it. Together they are greater than J Smith.
Replace Dudley with Warrick and Clark and I actually like the deal. I can see it working for all 4 teams. However, I might even have the Hawks give us Crawford seeing how he wants out.
This means we would have,
PG Nash/Dragic
SG Childress/Crawford
SF Hill/Dudley
PF Smith/Turk
C Lopez/Frye.
I like it for us.
I also think the Hawks win out on this one too. Billups and Nene to go along with JJ and Horford and Williams could make them a better playoff contender. Lets be honest, they aren’t going anywhere with their current team.
This Nuggets get a lot of cap relief. J-Rich and Prince are good players to hold them over for a season.
The Pistons are the only ones who don’t really get anything good. The players they get back are decent, but they would at least deserve a couple 1st round draft picks out of it.
Don't trade Dudley!
However, I might even have the Hawks give us Crawford seeing how he wants out.
Show us how this would work in the trade machine.
The Pistons are the only ones who don’t really get anything good. The players they get back are decent, but they would at least deserve a couple 1st round draft picks out of it.
Agreed, though it’s not bad for them either. Dudley is a better long term investment than Prince at this point. I’d think both the Pistons and the Nuggets would be looking for draft picks to pull the trigger on this one.
And leave poor Warrick alone. That guy is going to work out great for us and at that price…
Besides, then we’d be short a power forward again, and Lawal is not the answer this year.
oh man, I thought you were talking JR Smith
and I was ready to write the most scathing comment in reply.
Still love Josh Smith on this team, though that’s quite a lot that would have happen in your post there. Trades of more than 2 teams are almost impossible.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Times 4.
I was even going to say you forgot the R in JR Smith.
Steve Nash is my mancrush. But Goran Dragic is the 2nd coming of Manu Ginobili, which makes him just as tasty.
10googol
or GoogolPlex ha.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
TURRIBLE!
That's less.
Thumbs down, sir.
Gold star for spelling googol correctly though.
We need more grading methods in this community.
I am correct, infinity is not a number, it is a word.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
TURRIBLE!
I don't want to give up J-Rich for Josh Smith. Period.
That would place a huge burden on Steve as he would be the only starter who can create offense. Lopez, Smith, and Childress don’t seem like guys who can consistently and efficiently create their own shot. Steve, Hedo, and maybe Grant are the only scorers you can trust, and even Hedo and Grant aren’t exactly consistent.
I would rather have J-Rich and a serviceable PF than Smoove and a serviceable SG. I know Smith is younger, but I don’t love his offensive game or his attitude. Throw in losing Dudley and no thanks.
That would place a huge burden on Steve as he would be the only starter who can create offense
Two thoughts on this:
First – you want Steve creating the offense. He’s fucking good at it.
Second – I’d say Grant is much better at getting his own shot than Richardson, and Hedo probably will be too. Richardson is great on the fast break, the open court, and spotting up for threes. I don’t see Gentry saying to himself “We really need a couple points. I think I’ll run the iso for J-Rich.”
On to the other stuff – I don’t like the idea of giving up Dudley either, but I’d move J-Rich by himself for Smith in a heartbeat for the reasons that I’ve already gone into detail on this site a couple dozen times.
your title was confusing
How about using a player’s full name when there’s at least one other player has a similar name? Your title made me think you wanted the Suns to trade for the Nuggets’ J.R. Smith, and I thought “Why would the Suns trade for a bonehead like J.R. Smith when they already have a great backcourt?”
I'm confused.
Assuming a Melo deal happens prior to the season opener, DEN overhauls its roster with this trade.
But then you have Melo still listed on the Nuggets when the dust settles from all this. I don’t get it. So, the Melo trade happens in a vacuum and then all this other stuff happens independently of that? My assumption when I started reading this was that we could indirectly enter into the Melo trade fray to allow us to land Josh Smith. Am I missing something?
the 6.0 aftershock
good point—this deal (esp. w/Prince to DEN and the slim chance DEN can’t unload Melo prior to the season) would have to follow. DEN settles the Melo situation first. NJN have the picks, salaries and a guy like Favors. talk of DEN shipping Melo to a bottomdfeeder is a joke—no rent-a-Melo and everybody involved (even DEN) knows it. so with a trade like this on the backburner it makes sense for DEN to get size/soon-to-expire contracts/picks.
by ninecharacters on Aug 31, 2010 6:56 PM MDT up reply actions
OK. That makes more sense
But it also means there are more moving parts here, because we don’t know who they’ll trade Melo to and what they’ll get from him. Depending on who they would get, they’ll have different needs after that trade.
by East Bay Ray on Aug 31, 2010 8:47 PM MDT up reply actions
This is what I'm not getting here
Correct me if I’m wrong.
Hypothecially Melo’s has 2 choices in this situation either his contract expires playing for Denver and he walks and with the new CBA he gets paid half (or whatever) after the new CBA. Or he resigns an extension before the season is over to get guaranteed money.
So why doesn’t Denver play hard ball and not allow Melo to bully them. Have Melo play in Denver this year UNTIL they get a reasonable offer for him because by the time the trade deadline is looming Melo will hop on any team who will give him his 5-6 year extension unless he wants to let his contract expire and leave a LOT of money on the table to play for a contender.
If Denver can just wait it out and make it clear they will let his contract expire just to make sure he doesn’t get paid he won’t be picky about his new team, and all teams can make offers for him knowing they can lock him up long term before the season is over.
I see no reason why Denver doesn’t play it out this way, its not like they are contending under any current trade scenarios right now.
by PandRisDead on Aug 31, 2010 10:20 PM MDT up reply actions
Half is an exaggeration. Three years is the maximum for an extension. About 65m over 3 years isn’t incredibly better than about 90m over five years – especially when he gets to choose his five-year home.
No trade offer will be made that’s even partially reasonable without Melo accepting an extend-and-trade, which leaves few options for trade partners. No one wants to pay talent to rent Melo for a year.
Melo is now at the point where he values the championship more than the paycheck. If Denver plays hardball, Melo will happily walk to a new 5 year contract with his chosen team for more total money and happiness – and leave Denver with less than their dicks in their hands.
I think he meant the new CBA would cut
future salaries in half, not that the current extension offer is too low.
Frankly, the Nuggs could/should play hardball and wait for a really good trade offer before moving Carmelo. The Nuggs are in a better position than the Suns were, given the likelihood that Carmelo would lose a lot of money if he waited for the new CBA before signing.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
That was exactly my thinking. We’ve all heard that he will be moved before the season starts for peanuts but I’m not convinced that Denver would do that.
Melo may have a “list” now but if Denver doesn’t receive value for him from one of those teams I’m sure that list will be expanded to anyone who will pay him.
So does that mean that the Suns Organization is completely out of the picture? If we are somewhat competitive come this season I wouldn’t see why he and more importantly his wife wouldn’t want to live here.
are we sure he gets us any further than Amare did?
Ultimately, Amare didn’t do quite enough to put the Suns on his shoulders and carry them to a championship. Very few players in the history of the game can do that.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Is that the standard, though?
Nash hasn’t carried us to a championship, but we think he’s sorta worth having around, right? As I’ve said before, we’re not getting Melo. He’d be a bad fit for our team culture, and he and his “star” (cough cough) wife seem to crave brighter lights, bigger city than what Phoenix can offer. But, those things aside, Melo the player is someone I’d love to have on my team.
by East Bay Ray on Sep 1, 2010 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions
I wouldnt be so sure about that East Bay
He wants to go to Houston and I think Phx is like LA compared to Houston and it is certainly closer there are quite a few celebs in the PHX area.
I’m not sure he will carry us to a championship but would you rather have him than not have him? I mean he is probably the 7-8 best player in the league so one would think it would improve our current chances.
An offer of Frye, Childress, Warrick, Dudley or Clark this would be a haul for Denver and something I actually think they’d consider. This is far more than most teams are offering.
It would still leave us with
Nash/JRich//Hill/Melo/Lopez
Dragic/Dudley/Hedo off the bench
This way we’d be able to resign JRich, who is crucial for playoff basketball. Dragic and JRich can both play 35 min a game so we wouldn’t HAVE to sign another guard of quality. Leaves Hedo off the bench to play make for the second unit as a SF, we could resign Lou to backup Melo and pick up another big body to dance behind Lopez.
This team would leave us as clearly the number 2 favorites in the West, with 2 bonified scorers in JRich and Melo. 2 quality crunch times players in Nash and Melo and a team with a ton of playoff experience up and down the roster.
Melo will not come to Phoenix.
Giving up Frye, Childress, Warrick, Dudley and Clark in order to rent a “phoning-it-in” Carmelo Anthony for one year is insane.
You can keep wishing, if you’d like. While you’re at it you might as well come up with trade scenarios for the event that Kevin Durant, Dwight Howard and Lebron James all demand trades to come to Phoenix.
I don’t know what basis you have for saying he won’t come to PHX. If he’s willing to go to crappy Houston then I’m sure he’d resign here. We have a contending team with He and Nash for the WC. As far as media outlets go for his wife PHX may not be NY or LA but it is leaps and bounds above nearly all other teams.
If we give up Frye, Childress, Warrick, Dudley, and Clark
We are only contending for the cellar, even with Melo.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
I thought about that. We won’t be as deep but in reality no team needs to roll 10 deep. Look at LA, won 2 years in a row only really going 6 deep. We’d definately have to sign a couple more players but lets be honest with ourselves Warrick, Dudley, Childress are replaceable. It would be much easier to replace those guys than it would be to somehow get another Melo caliber player.
I think this is exaclty what Sarver was talking about
When he said he wants to pick up cheap talent to make a move for a bigger star. He knows what the Nash effect does for players offensively. When these new guys Childress and Warrick average career highs next season playing with Nash it would be perfect time to flip them while their price is high.
Lebron catches endless grief because he hasn't done the things it takes to win a title.
Carmelo is in the same boat. I am not convinced that he has the edge to go all the way – of course, he has the talent, but we all know it takes much more than talent. I’m also not convinced that Warrick, Dudley, and Childress are replaceable until I see Childress and Warrick play as Suns – I know I don’t want to replace Dudley.
Starters typically play around 60% of available minutes. Having a team that is 10 deep gives us a decided advantage in the rest of the minutes, especially when we have high caliber players going against inferior players – and last year, our bench beat SA and the Lakers starters on several occasions. We have improved our bench, and I want to see what they can do before we go trading the lot away.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
You don’t think a bench anchored with Turk as our Odom would create problems for other team’s second unit? That was one of the best parts of this deal, having Turk come off the bench to help facilitate at the SF spot.
The problem I currently see is that we may have the best bench in the league but our starters don’t match those of SA and LA (and a bunch of other WC Teams) anymore. So to now rely on our bench to win us games us suicide.
We have no crunch time players as of now. I know Nash is somewhat reliable but think about going deep in the playoffs playing Nash 33+ MPG at 38 yrs old in the 4th quarter. Personally I’d like to have another option we can go to, to guarantee a score, and Melo can do that.
Nash is still 36.
He’s only going to be turning 37 this season so it’s not that big a stretch. Plus, I expect Dragic’s minutes to increase this season to give Nash some rest.
We may not have the best starting lineup but it takes a good TEAM to win games. Teams like the Lakers and San Antonio may have great starting lineups but with all those heavy minutes their starters play, they start to wear down in the postseason.
Like haremoor says, we should watch what this team can do before passing any judgment.
Steve Nash is my mancrush. But Goran Dragic is the 2nd coming of Manu Ginobili, which makes him just as tasty.
Turk is a crunch-time player - so is Hill, if given the opportunity.
JRich doesn’t suck, either.
I want to see what this team can do – but if we’re going to give all that talent away to add a player, I’d rather go after a big 4 like Horford or Marc Gasol – I can’t see trading five players away for a small forward, no matter how good he is, and he is still behind Lebron, Kobe, Wade, and Durant (even if all those guys aren’t always listed as SF’s). I don’t want to lose these guys – Childress was a coup, and Dudly is a special player.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
There is no basis to think that he will come to Phoenix.
He probably wants a contender – Phoenix is not generally thought of as a contender.
He probably wants a nice climate – Phoenix is not generally thought of as having a nice climate.
He probably wants a “big pond” – Phoenix is not generally thought of as being a big or important city.
Just because:
A) an SI reporter claimed that someone close to Carmelo claimed that Houston was a possibility and
B) you like Phoenix more than Houston
does not mean Phoenix is a possibility.
Those are pretty negative thoughts about your city
You are telling me that Phx with Melo on the roster I have above is not a contender? That team would undoubtedly be #2 in the West. You’re also telling me that a contending team would revamp their roster to take on Melo? As much as the Lakers deal with Bynum to Denver makes sense, there’s no way LA unloads Bynum for Melo.
Look up and down the league there aren’t very many teams who have the assets to give up that Denver would be happy with that would still be competitive after acquiring him. Phx is one of a few teams that could unload a lot young talent to satisfy Denver and still be competitive. Houston, Portland, Milwaukee would pretty much be the entire list.
I’m not saying PHX is #1 here on his list, but lets be honest Melo can’t have it all. 1) He can’t get paid max money 2)also go to a contender who happens is in a 3) big media market for his wife. He can get 1/3 or possibly 2/3 if he settles but not 3/3. Phx is very close to a Big Pond in LA and are you crazy? Phx weather is phenomenal.
Honestly
I hate the PHX with Melo roster you proposed.
No backup center, no backup 2 guard, and last I checked the free agent well is pretty dry by now. It is possible to succeed without going 10 deep, yes. But one injury makes it a disaster, so it’s a gamble. The Suns learned that lesson in ‘05 and ’06, didn’t they?
And are you proposing that the Suns trade all of these assets for a year rental, or do you want Melo to sign here long term? Frankly I’m sickened by either thought. Melo has gotten his team out of the first round exactly one time, I believe. And he has had plenty of talent around him in Denver since his arrival.
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
Also,
Now that Amare has departed I’m looking forward to not having a star player on the team that plays beneath his own potential. Melo would screw that up for me.
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
I hear you RMason about stars not living up to potential, but I think Phx with Melo to build around is better than no Melo at all. All I’m saying is that these assets we’ve accumulated didn’t come to us at any cost. They were all signings for the bigger picture.
And I’d hate to get rid of Frye but I guess my point was that we’ve been hearing all of these bogus trade rumors for Melo and I wanted to propose one that actually made sense for Denver. It would allow Denver to start over with some new young athletic talent. So who knows if Frye would have to be necessary in the deal since Denver has quite a few bigs already.
If this deal was done we’d have to address some problems, but personally I prefer Dragic to get more minutes at the SG position playing with Nash instead of a 20 mpg backup. Lou could be resigned so we’d only have to potentially fill one hole at the C. Defensively we’d be a downgrade but that’s the only way I’ve known it for the last decade.
I wanted to propose one that actually made sense for Denver.
You should try one that makes sense for us.
Bazinga!
Steve Nash is my mancrush. But Goran Dragic is the 2nd coming of Manu Ginobili, which makes him just as tasty.
Seriously who out of those players I proposed are you that attached to?
It would be a great little package to build around if you are rebuilding but none of those players are irreplaceable. None of those players have had any success without the Nash effect. Even as great as you all proclaim Childress to be he jumped ship to play in Europe for a reason.
The reason the Childress went to Europe is that Atlanta was dicking him around.
They wouldn’t deal with him in good faith, so he went.
And how would I know if I’m attached to him – I haven’t seen a second of him in a Suns uniform. I’m not gifted enough to be able to see into the future, but it looks to me like he’s a very good, very smart, high character guy for relatively little money, and I’d like to see what he can do. He fits very, very well into the Sun’s future, and we’ve got him for a long time – that contract should look like a major bargain when it’s all said and done.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
I have no doubts he will be better for us than his 10 ppg avg and he’s reasonably cheap.
I just think that this is Sarver’s/Kerr’s master plan to acquire these solid players on good deals to flip them for a real franchise player. Pretty much every Summer we sign 1-2 players to a 1 year deal only to have their numbers skyrocket and then they leave for more money elsewhere.
So why not buy low and sell high on some of these expendable assets?
Because these assets aren't expendable.
They haven’t stepped on the court yet. You can’t judge how expendable a player is until they play. If they play well, then their value increases. If they play poorly, then their value drops.
For all we know, this team might be the 2011 champs. All the acquisitions this summer have been low-risk signings that can only make the team better. A Melo trade is VERY high-risk and could possibly do this team more harm than good.
Steve Nash is my mancrush. But Goran Dragic is the 2nd coming of Manu Ginobili, which makes him just as tasty.
He may not be the most likable thug in the league. But its tough to argue that he would make this team worse. I’m only saying these players are far more expendable than a top 10 guy in the league.
I think we all forget how good Amare actually was. Im sorry no matter how you cut it adding Turk, Warrick, and Childress don’t make up for losing Amare.
But its tough to argue that he would make this team worse.
If you trade away four out of our five bench players and leave us with a seven player rotation – two of which will retire soon and one that will probably leave in a year…
seems like an easy argument to me.
Its not as though this team will take us to the promise land this year so basically we are just putting a product on the floor to be competitive and sell tickets but not actually to win a championship.
Yeah it would leave us with 8 rotational players and some TPE’s to acquire more. But we’d have a top 3 point guard and a top 3 scorer to put pieces around. In the the land of the West that can challenge LA.
Based on the deals that have occurred this offseason,
we lost Barbosa and Amar’e. We gained Childress, Warrick, and Turkoglu.
Childress will be taking Barbosa’s place. That already improves our team. Amar’e was a very skilled offensive PF whose rebounding was average and defensive mediocre. We replace him with Turkoglu in the starting lineup. Turkoglu is an average rebounder but a pretty good defender with a good offensive repertoire of his own. Warrick will make a decent backup.
Sounds like an improvement to me.
Steve Nash is my mancrush. But Goran Dragic is the 2nd coming of Manu Ginobili, which makes him just as tasty.
The guard play will be significantly improved no doubt about that but it seems to me like we are sugar coating this situation. Our big problems have been rebounding and they haven’t been solved with undersized Hedo and Warrick.
Amare still grabbed 9+ boards a game last year, this isn’t too shabby for a PF. We just don’t have a presence in the lane to score at will now, this will be sorely missed. Melo could be that presence on the block however.
I live in the Orlando area, I’ve already got my Orlando/Miami tickets (two hour sellout) I’ve seen Turk play D, he makes Amare look like Garnett. He’s too slow to guard SF’s and too small to guard PF’s we will have to hide him in the lineup just as we have to hide Nash. Do you remember the Orlando/Boston series? Paul Pierce isn’t a particularly quick guy and was able to blow by Turk and eat him up off the dribble.
I’ve defended him to my fellow Magic fans but there’s a reason Magic fans weren’t upset to get rid of him, his playmaking and passing are over rated. One of the biggest arguments was that he could create, but at certain times wouldn’t and would shoot poor percentage shots.
Again...
I do not think these things about Phoenix. I simply understand that most of the country does. You should too.
Another again…
Max money us up for debate. We don’t know how much the CBA will change, and regardless of how much it does, he can still pick up a long term contract for more total money. But that’s probably irrelevant, since he’ll make plenty of money no matter which way he swings it, and #s 2 and 3 are probably much more important to him.
As for weather, no, I’m not crazy. When people think Phoenix it’s burning hot springs, summers and fall that come to mind, not temperate winters. If you think the country considers Phoenix weather to be phenomenal, then it’s you, sir, that is crazy.
By the way, I never said anything about LA giving up Bynum for Melo, or anything about a contending team revamping their roster at all – so I’m not sure what point of mine you’re countering there.
It’s also a bit confusing that you’re suggesting a contending team wouldn’t revamp their roster to pick up Melo, but at the same time also saying that the Suns are a contending team and we should revamp our roster to pick up Melo.
I’ve never said we are a contending team but with him and this deal it makes us a contending team. As for LA, the Bynum rumor has floated around and they are the only team that could offer him all 3.
And I’m not sure how in this business you could say money isn’t priority #1 for Melo as it is for every single other player. If Lebron really wanted to win he could have taken the min and let MIA build around him, he doesn’t need the extra 100M that he will get playing over the next 5 years. No player is that selfless.
Why do you think Melo and his people want him to get traded now and paid today rather than walking next summer? He is aware that any deal made next summer will yield a fraction of what an extension would be worth. I think if the CBA wasn’t looming he’d spend another year in Denver to give it another go while Chauncey has some life left in him, and then walk.
I’m not sure you recognize that PHX is an attractive destination weather-wise. Basketball is primarily a Winter sport mind you. I spent a handful of years in the Midwest and I can tell you most people would rather take 100 degree heat over 8 months of snow any day. Other than SoCal or Florida Arizona is right up there. Why would you think there is such a disproportionate number of elderly folks in the Valley. I under no circumstances consider myself an Arizonian anymore and I still think it is one of the most attractive destinations to live.
As for LA, the Bynum rumor has floated around and they are the only team that could offer him all 3.
Both wrong. LA doesn’t want to lose Bynum and there are other teams that could – but won’t – offer relatively equal value to Denver.
And I’m not sure how in this business you could say money isn’t priority #1 for Melo as it is for every single other player.
Wrong too. I could list examples, but I’m getting bored. Melo is a mid-career superstar. He, like all other mid-career superstars, wants happiness and championships more than money.
If Lebron really wanted to win he could have taken the min and let MIA build around him, he doesn’t need the extra 100M that he will get playing over the next 5 years.
All three of them took less. Claiming that they aren’t really putting winning first unless they play for free is ridiculous.
Why do you think Melo and his people want him to get traded now and paid today rather than walking next summer?
Because then he’d move now and make more money – but only if he goes here he wants is that worth it.
He is aware that any deal made next summer will yield a fraction of what an extension would be worth.
This is somewhere between a gross exaggeration and just outright wrong.
I’m not sure you recognize that PHX is an attractive destination weather-wise.
Again, most people don’t think of Phoenix as being a wonderful climate. Just the opposite. Your personal feelings do not change this.
By the way, it’s a lot hotter than 100 degrees here in the summer.
I seem to have an addiction to that blockquote button.
I’m not sure you argued any of the “blockquotes” with any evidence to suggest otherwise. You simply said you disagree with everything.
There is a Bynum for Melo rumor floating, so I’m mentioning it. And realistically that is the ONLY destination he can go to to win today.
Lebron took a 2m dollar a year pay cut to play in MIA he’s still earning 16+ this season, it would be difficult to imagine after the new CBA a contract would start out at this level especially with a hard cap. And Melo isn’t Lebron rich.
Melo’s agents aren’t stupid they receive a cut of what he makes so you can bet they will make sure he has a long term deal done this season no matter the destination. Because you’re right we don’t know the new CBA will cut salaries drastically but why would you take that chance and leave money on the table?
And again evidence suggests by the flock of elderly folks to the valley post retirement that it is a desirable location for many people.
I’m not sure you argued any of the "blockquotes" with any evidence to suggest otherwise. You simply said you disagree with everything.
That’s funny, I was just thinking the same of you. I felt like you were only repeating your opinions and disregarding the points that counter them.
I’ve made my counterpoints against what I believe is your misrepresentation of the facts, likely misunderstanding of player motivations, and differences in opinion regarding what’s best for our team. It’s probably best that we both stop repeating ourselves and move on.
Regarding your “Most old people live in Arizona, SoCal and Florida so the weather must be great” argument – here is the most recent census data showing that Arizona is tied for 22nd in percentage of population 65 and older and tied for 24th in those 85 years and older.
Yey, quoting myself now.
It’s probably best that we both stop repeating ourselves and move on.
That might have come off as a “shut up, I win” demand. I apologize if so, that was not my intention. I just meant to say that I don’t think there’s likely any more progress to be made in compromise of our opinions.
It would have been nice in the spirit of banter to bring more evidence of your thoughts rather than just your view of the situation and calling it fact.
In light of your census data, I’ve yet to see many Mexican immigrants over the age of 65 coming to America or Mexican families having 65 year old babies, so I’d assume the number of younger persons is heavily diluted and thus inconclusive data.
New additions to the Melo destination include Minnesota, Portland, and GS. So it looks like he is only going to bet getting 1/3.
Illegal immigrants do not usually (or actually ever) participate in the census and therefore do not dilute the results.
Can you really find me data regarding the percentage of residents over the age of 65 in the state of Arizona that is more conclusive than the most recent US Census?
so, what do you think of this Carmelo fellow?
think we should acquire him?
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Holy crap! This conversation is still going on?
PandRisDead: Tell you what, when Melo is wearing a Suns uniform, feel free to come here and say “I told you so” to me, waxmonkey, NashMV3, haremoor, and a partridge in a pear tree. Until then, “yawn.” Let’s talk about what is real.
by East Bay Ray on Sep 2, 2010 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions
I feel like Bugs Bunny...
Shaddup? I can shaddup. I know when to shaddup. You want me to Shaddup? I’ll Shaddup…
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
I never said anything about illegals, not every Mexican in Arizona is illegal so don’t be racist.
I think its safe to say and I’m sure most people agree that Arizona is filled with old people because of the weather. I’m unaware of any other states that have an equivalent to “Sun City”
In God we trust, all others must bring data.
I wasn’t being racist and accusing me of doing so is both inappropriate and extremely offensive.
I was responding to your argument in the only way that made sense. You say that there are vast numbers of under-65 Mexican immigrants in Arizona skewing the population percentages. One would assume you are referring to illegal immigrants – since Latino citizens certainly grow older than the age of 64 in Arizona at pretty much the same rate as every other ethnicity.
As far as “I think people agree with me so that trumps the Census data” … that’s just a poor argument. You made an argument, and I proved it was based on incorrect assumptions.
None of this has anything to do with basketball, and not even Carmelo Anthony anymore, so we should probably just let it go.
Immigrants have skewed the population numbers in the US in the last decade or so. Illegal or not there is an influx of a young Mexican-American population in the US, nothing wrong with that. That is referred to as a naive statistic because it doesn’t show the full picture.
In God we trust, all others must bring data.
Who says it's a lot of money? Show me where someone knowledgeable said that they expect the new CBA would cut maximum player salaries in half?
All we know is that it will probably be less. If it’s knocked down 10% across the board, its still 65m over 3 years vs about 90m over five years.
And what makes you think Melo cares more about money than happiness and championships at this point in his career – especially when he’s still going to make a lot of money in either situation?
The Nuggets are boned here, gentleman. If their star wants to walk, they can either get very little for him now, play nice and get a TPE for him later, or be confrontational and get nothing for him later. Denver holding out for value will not make Melo panic and take whoever Denver wants for a little more money.
Old(er) stars without rings value rings and happiness above dollars.
Stars are panicking now to get guaranteed money before the new CBA, think Jefferson on SA. I kind of see Melo in the Amare mold, rather get paid than win. This may not be the best type of player in the world to build around but its definitely a brighter future than building around only Dragic/Lopez.
I don't see any stars panicking.
Amare didn’t go to NY to get paid. He went to NY to be a star in the biggest city in the country.
Building around Melo is not an option. He is not coming here.
I want Al Horford more than Smith,
Horford is a natural PF.
C – RoLo
PF – Horford
SF – Turkoglu
SG – Richardson
PG – Nash
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
TURRIBLE!
absolutely
the big problem is that Smith is eminently more available (relatively speaking) than Horford.
There’s talk today that Atlanta might once again bid against itself to give Horford a max extension this fall before Horford can listen to a word from another team. Too soon to tell whether Horford would sign it, considering he doesn’t like playing C.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
I hope atlanta misses the playoffs so that al horfords chooses not to resign there.
"Remember this sh*t at christmas!"-Terry Crews, The Expendables
What if a team, say the Suns, decides to give him an offer that pushes the Hawks deep into the lux tax?
And I mean deeper than they are now.
Steve Nash is my mancrush. But Goran Dragic is the 2nd coming of Manu Ginobili, which makes him just as tasty.
We've previously discussed that very idea.
About 13m is his maximum allowable offer, and per Alex’s math, the Suns should be able to put at least 11m on the table if memory serves.
Hawks match and their bottom line is hurting, but they don’t and they probably lose Horford – so they have to match.
We shake the money tree and Smith might just fall out.
if the Suns pull a mini-Knicks... or a mini-HEAT
by dumping enough salaries indisriminently (sp?) and finding extra salary room, they could front-load an offer that way exceeds the first-year max.
Hawks did that to the Suns in 2005. JJ got like 20 mil that first season even though he was only eligible for much less than that in straight salary.
Yet, a few teams dumped a lot of salaries this summer to hit it big, and only the HEAT cashed in. Knicks, Nets, Bulls (IMO) and Clips all came up short in their quest for a LBJ, Wade and/or Bosh coup.
That’s not worth it, IMO. Too much chance to fail.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Yeah, I don't think dumping for a shot is a good idea either
but I’m all for giving them what we got.
Depends on what you’re dumping and how much you’re paying to do it.
Banzai!
by Suns' Sensei on Aug 31, 2010 4:35 PM MDT up reply actions
any time you dump
in an effort to land “that” player, and then fail to land “that” player, then it’s a fail. Regardless of who/how you dumped them.
In the Suns’ case, the only way a dumping works is to give up servicable players for an all-star caliber guy who plays a position of long-term need and can lead you to a championship.
Otherwise, they can make a deep playoff run with the team they have.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Well, take the Suns for instance – a few years ago they dumped Marbury and Hardaway. I think that even if the Suns don’t sign Nash the following summer, that trade is not a fail for them. In fact, I’d still mark that trade down in the success column even without the return of Nash.
Banzai!
by Suns' Sensei on Aug 31, 2010 5:56 PM MDT up reply actions
There were other circumstances involved with that situation. I don’t think the Suns ditched those guys in order to hopefully bring in a star, they just wanted them off the team and wanted to start over.
Dumping salary now makes very little sense because every player on the roster is a quality player and good for chemistry. It’s not like there are any big-name guys coming out that would consider PHX anyway. Do you want to get rid of guys like Dudley, J-Rich, and Childress to bring in David West?
I agree that the Suns don’t need to dump salaries with the current roster.
However, I do think the point of getting rid of Marbury and Penny was to free up room to sign a big name the following summer. We went after Nash almost immediately when FA began if I recall correctly.
Anyways, my point is that just because a team who has dumped salary doesn’t get the guy #1 on their list in FA, doesn’t mean that dumping salary was a failure. Personally, I think the best move for the Knicks a couple years ago was clearing all that salary off their books whiether they got Lebron or not.
Banzai!
LOL, then lets fuck them over by offering a nice fat contract
"Remember this sh*t at christmas!"-Terry Crews, The Expendables
We won't be the only ones
And unless we max, we probably won’t be the largest contract offered either.
I'm with waxmonkey.
Al Horford is a very desirable player. With his size, athleticism, and skillset, he is one of the league’s best big men. I’m sure many teams would be after him. We really would have to offer him the max.
Steve Nash is my mancrush. But Goran Dragic is the 2nd coming of Manu Ginobili, which makes him just as tasty.
If it ends up being a fight to see who can front-load the biggest
then 13m might not be enough. 13m is just the starting average salary.
But it’s true, we could pay someone to take Earl Clark for nothing (that hurts to say out loud) and hit that 13m mark.
its not paying ATL
its paying Horford enough to get him to change teams, like they did to Joe Johnson.
There’s something weird you can do with RFA offers to front-load them. ATL did it with JJ, somehow paying him 20+ mil of his contract in year 1. No way Suns match that. Yet we still got Diaw and 2 protected #1s out of it (the second one becoming Robin Lopez)
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
And the other one turned into Al Horford, correct? Curse you protected pick!
The Hawks getting that 3rd pick was just a slap in the face to PHX. 2nd, and it would have been all right.. 4th, and we would have gotten the pick. But it HAD to be the 3rd pick they got.
not really
the pick was protected top-3 (with good reason, actually. The Hawks sucked and the pick was top-10 protected in yr 1, top-3 in yr 2, and no protection in yr 3).
The Hawks finished with the 6th worst record in yr 2, but got lucky and “won” the 3rd pick, thereby keeping it and taking Horford.
If the Suns had gotten the 6th pick, then they would have likely picked Joakim Noah (Horford would have already been gone). Would have been a GREAT pick, I have to say. And it would have completely changed the 2008 season and maybe the Suns history. But no use thinking about that now.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
sorry I repeated you
in the first 2 paragraphs, Omaha. My bad. In fact, you wrote that part better.
Just look at the 3rd para, I guess.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Horford Noah Lopez
That’s a trio where you don’t really mind taking whoever’s left.
Banzai!
by Suns' Sensei on Sep 1, 2010 10:22 PM MDT up reply actions
I know that, but I think it'd be really funny to see atlanta ruin their dreams and hopes by signing horford to the max as well.
Memphis has the same problem, with marc gasol being a ufa next season and all.
"Remember this sh*t at christmas!"-Terry Crews, The Expendables
I'd feel a little bad forcing their hand that way.
A little.
I really like the Hawks. I just like the Suns more. Especially now that one of my favorite Hawks players is sporting a Suns uniform.
I like the hawks too, but I'm out for some revenge, LOL
"Remember this sh*t at christmas!"-Terry Crews, The Expendables
Props on this idea
May be incredibly far fetched, but it’s rare that you see a trade idea this well thought out and one that actually makes sense for all teams involved.
Josh Smith would be a good gamble to take with J-Rich’s expiring, like you said he’d mesh nicely with our front court and lets Hedo slide over to the 3. Next year we could be starting Nash, Childress, Hedo, Smith and Lopez, now that would be fun to watch. Two great passers and three athletic freaks flying all over the place.
ATL comes out huge in this though. They ditch Bibby’s terrible contract, get a proven center and get to slide Horford over to PF. Not sure it gets them past Orlando or Miami, but it definitely makes them better and gives them a shot of getting to the ECF.
Yeah
a lineup of Billups, JJ, Williams, Horford, and Nene looks pretty good. Of course, if nothing happens, we might entering a bidding war for Al Horford next summer.
Steve Nash is my mancrush. But Goran Dragic is the 2nd coming of Manu Ginobili, which makes him just as tasty.
i saw on nba.com that
ATL is going to offer horford a near max deal…..if thats true he isnt going anywhere
Horford might not take it.
He can get max so near-max is a little bit of a low-ball. He would also want better evidence that they are going to move him to power forward, I’d suspect.
Then again, he may sign right away out of loyalty to Atlanta.
no one will give him the max
his best year was last year when he averaged 14 points and 10 rebs, he plays average d. If someone gives him the max they are INSANE.
+1
gotta look at age, and playing out of position, and the offense in which he plays.
Plus Horford is a really, really good defender in all aspects, by any advanced statistical account.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Also takke into account that the majority of elite PFs were locked up this summer.
Amar’e, Dirk, Boozer, and Bosh all off the market. Who will be his competition in FA? He’s definitely going to get a huge offer.
Shamsports.com is a good place to check salaries.
To save you the time, 5.4m this year, 7.1m qualifying offer next. Max contract for him next year will be about 13.6m/year (ignoring front-loading).
Gosh, I was hoping we could offer him something around 10m while resigning J-Rich for about 6m. However, that’s a whole year from now, will just have to wait and see.
Don't trade Dudley!
the Suns are welcome to offer
both of those numbers next summer, as long as they’re okay with hearing a chortle on the other end of the line…
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
It's a chance to get a top flight player with a huge upside without giving up anyone.
With a relatively low max of under 14M we should tie him up for 5 years. Maybe we would have to give up Warrick to get under the cap, but that’s about the only good reason to give up Warrick – I think he’s going to be a very good player,
So call me insane, I guess.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
Lol, yea. I just think J-Rich(keep in mind that Raja was making around 5m when he was with us) now in his career is worth about 6m and I don’t believe Horford is worth more than 10m.
Don't trade Dudley!
well the market will say otherwise
and has consistently done so.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
I'm sure we will extend them - hopefully before they price themselves out of our market.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
ummm
they will lose crawford before smith or harford. thread dead
ok thanks
don’t bother posting any more, everyone! The Thread has been declared dead. Meeeh knows exactly what’s going to happen, so why bother discussing anything else.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
lol you can do what you want
maybe look at the grizzlies. 11 players on their final year all looking for a new contract. This is including thabet and gasol
Horford doesn't like
being a C. He wants to play the 4 position and have more flexibility. Plus, it might pull him away from guarding guys like Howard all the time. Sure he’d still have to help double though. So ATL is trying to find bangers that will allow Horford to move to the 4.
Now here's an interesting thought...
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=35gugeq
I’m pretty sure ATL would go for that.
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