SB Nation Arizona Editor's Pick
Superstars, lets define em.
by Beavis 25 on Sep 2, 2010 7:47 PM MDT
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Here is my opinion on the matter. When it comes to determining superstars, I look at 8 aspects.
Skill, Potential, Mental Toughness and High Basketball IQ(both usually come together, so I put them together), Killer Instinct, Impact, Consistency, Stats and Intangibles. When it comes to superstars, intangibles are more of an added bonus, but for a lesser player they can make up for certain things. I also have categories for certain players; Superstar, Borderline Superstar, All-star...
Lets look at players who without a doubt we would call a "superstar".
Micheal Jordan
Skill- Very skilled scorer and defender. Decent if not good at everything else.
Potential- His potential was very high, obviously and I believe he reached it.
Mental Toughness- He had it or he wouldn't of been able to lead his team to a Championship. Remember the flu game? Didn't let criticisms bother him. He rather used them as motivation.
Killer Instinct- Yes, we all know how often he was able to take over late in a game.
Impact- Without him the Bulls didn't win 6 Championships.
Consistency- He was consistent at everything he did.
Stats- Put up superstar like stats his entire career. Averaged around 30 points.
Intangibles- I think his intangible was the intensity he played with. He got under people's skin. He had a desire to be the best and tried to. I could mark that as an intangible.
Skill- Very skilled at scoring, rebounding and defending. Had good foot work. Decent free throw shooter and passer...
Potential- Despite not being that athletic, he was still big and found ways to dominate games through his skill. I think Duncan reached his potential.
Mental Toughness- He could handle losing, winning... He could handle pressure.
Killer Instinct- Yes, he had it and showed it in the most quiet and boring way I've ever seen.
Impact- He was the best player on the team. The Spurs are "his" team. Without him they don't win a single Championship. He was the focal point of the Spurs defense and Offense. He fails and the team fails.
Consistency- Very consistent with the exception of his free throw shooting. Not enough of an inconsistency to take away from his impact on the team and game though.
Stats- You dare argue against 21, 11, 3 and 2 for his career? Those are superstar like #'s for a big-man.
Intangibles- I think his intangibles were patience and being able to dominate and win in the most quite and humble way.
Shaq
Skill- Great scorer, good rebounder and passer, decent defender, for a big-man. Although, he relied much on his massive size to dominate.
Potential- Was very high and he never reached it. He could have been even better had he a better work ethic.
Mental toughness- Shaq surprisingly to me can handle the pressure of losing. He's great in the playoffs too. That's why people always say "he was built for the playoffs".
Killer Instinct- he had it for sure. He was often the guy his teams would go to late in the game because he was great at drawing fouls and just great at powering his way to an easy bucket.
Impact- Shaq was one of the most dominating players ever. His huge size caused triple teams and that still wasn't enough. He was the main man from 0-02 in winning Championships for that Laker team. His impact was so great that I can't possibly say he isn't a superstar because he never reached his potential or he wasn't consistent enough in the regular season. Had he though, than without a doubt he would be the best center ever.
Consistency- Injuries and laziness took away from this, but when it mattered most he stepped up and won 4 Titles.
Stats- Look at the 99-00 season, just amazing.
Intangibles- He was funny? He was giant?
Lets look at "borderline superstars".
Lebron James
Skill- He is a very good scorer and passer for a guy at his position. He's decent at everything else. I'm afraid he relies too much on his athleticism to dominate games.
Potential- If he can get his act together he could be a better rebounder and defender. He needs to gain that mental toughness as well. Lebron has a very high potential. With his body he could be the best. Does he have the mind though?
Mental toughness- doesn't have it. He isn't good at handling pressure. He doesn't have the smarts like Bird, Jordan, Kobe... all have. He doesn't have the mind of a superstar, never has. This is the reason he isn't one. If he did have this than he would have won a Championship by now.
Killer Instinct- He does have it as evidenced by his performance against the Pistons in 07 playoffs. If he had the mental toughness to go along with this he would be deadly, but because he doesn't I'd pick Kobe over him in some fantasy draft.
Impact- his great athleticism can have a mighty impact on the game and the Cavs won't win 40 games without him, however it's not enough to cover for his weaknesses. Shaq who shared some of his similar weaknesses had a much greater impact on the game. I would have more fear going up against the Shaq of 2000 than I would against the Lebron of today.
Consistency- He's pretty consistent at putting up those crazy stats.
Stats- I just said they were crazy.
Intangibles- Don't think he has any. Of course that isn't whats keeping him from being a superstar.
Skill- very skilled when it comes to shooting, passing and even scoring. Poor defender.
Potential- Compared with other great pg's his potential isn't very high. Just look at him. He isn't big or athletic and he has back problems. It's his excuse for not being a good defender. Could Nash be a better defender had he put more work towards it? Perhaps, but not enough to make a difference. He'd still be bad. I think he reached his potential.
Mental toughness- Of course Nash has got it. He can play despite being hurt. He can handle the pressure of the playoffs. Over all he is a good playoff performer, however, he lacks one thing that keeps him from being a superstar and it's a must have.
Killer Instinct- Nash doesn't have it. He sometimes does, but not always as if he doesn't know when to turn it on and when to turn it off. Too many times I see him passing when he should be shooting because he can. I like what he did in game 5 of the Suns/Lakers series last season. I want to see more of that. Although, I never thought his teams were ever good enough to win a Championship, I feel if he had this than we might have won a Championship already.
Impact- Nash can dictate games from the start and sometimes take over games in clutch situations. His impact isn't great as superstars because he lacks the "killer instinct". However, without him the Suns are nothing. He makes players better and the team is generally better with him on the court. This is enough to make up for his poor defense.
Consistency- Nash is pretty consistent. I've never heard anyone ever say he wasn't consistent nor thought so myself. We know what to expect from him each night and he gives us that.
Stats- For a PG his stats are pretty good.
Intangibles- Intensity, especially in the playoffs, gosh, if he could find that killer instinct he would be severely deadly because he's also mentally tough. He'd be a superstar without a doubt and would probably win a Championship. Flopping is another intangible. Nash knows how to do it and he usually never gets caught. Things like that change a game.
Notice how Shaq, Duncan, Jordan,.. all have rings and how Lebron, Nash... don't? Well, there you go. Lets get a conversation going.
Would you really put Lebron, Nash and others in the same category as Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Magic, Bird...?
On another note, borderline superstars and even some all-stars can still make the Hall of Fame, so don't worry, Nash will be in it.
Right now, I'm trying to figure out what category to put Manu Ginobli in. Borderline superstar or all-star?
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Disagree with Nash lacking a killer instinct...
Come on, the guy is one of the most clutch players in the league. Yeah, he passes sometimes at the end of the game, but that would still be the best possible play at that certain point. He’s one of the best passing point guards of all time, of course he’s going to try and make the best play by passing sometimes. Also, he completely surpassed his potential, moreso than almost anyone else in the league. The work ethic he has to keep himself in such good shape at his age is astounding.
Also, I understand all the Lebron hate right now (I’m on the Heat-haters bandwagon too), but you can’t deny that he’s a superstar. You don’t have to have a ring to be a superstar. Barkley, Malone, Stockton were all superstars.
Very well-written article other wise though… :)
"It seems like my whole life I’ve been this little Canadian kid dreaming somebody would give me a chance."
I’m not on the Heat-hate bandwagon, and I’m really tired of hearing ESPN and sportswriters around the nation telling me that if I don’t live in South Beach then I hate Lebron. I don’t at all. He did nothing wrong. The Heat did nothing wrong.
Yes, I agree
LeBron threw some salt in Cleveland’s wound with the way he left, but what did he really do wrong? He was a free agent and chose to leave a perennially loser franchise for one that has had some success, and go to a team that had a couple of his buddies on it, who just happen to be great players. He also chose to spend his mid-20s living in Miami instead of Cleveland, with the added bonus that Florida doesn’t have a state income tax, leaving him with more of his money (I haven’t seen this reported, how much money he’s saving because of that). He gave the Cavs 7 years of great basketball, and made their owner lots of money. The fans and the owner can be butt-hurt about the way things went if they want to, but he didn’t owe them any more than what he gave them.
If you were rich and famous in your mid-20s, wouldn’t you rather be in Miami than Cleveland, and on a team with other great players rather than being the only one?
but what did he really do wrong?
Ruin his image almost every where, but Miami. I’m just saying because it’s true. Even the NBA didn’t like how he made his decision.
Don't trade Dudley!
His image can be repaired
I’m not asking what people think of him, I’m asking why. As you think about it, what did he do that was so bad? His ESPN show to annouce he was going to Miami was at least insensitive, at most a big middle finger, to the city that supported him for 7 years. But, is that it? His presentation? How can you argue with the move he made to Miami?
I’m not mad that he went to Miami. He just wants to win a Championship with his friends.
How he left was wrong though. He should have showed more respect to his franchise that gave him his career even if they didn’t show respect back.
I don’t feel like debating this again. It’s old news.
Lebron isn’t a superstar because he lacks a must have quality in superstars and that is, Mental toughness and high basketball IQ. Because of that he probably won’t ever reach his full potential either. Of course he could change like Paul Gasol did. I’d even take Pippen over him.
Don't trade Dudley!
Also, I understand all the Lebron hate right now (I’m on the Heat-haters bandwagon too),
I didn’t think Lebron was a superstar before he joined Wade and Bosh and did the “decision” crap.
but you can’t deny that he’s a superstar
I can.
Very well-written article other wise though… :
Thanks, glad you commented.
Don't trade Dudley!
This is where I disagree...
He most definitely IS and WAS a superstar. I don’t know how someone who singlehandedly led a team of almost-nobodies (the other 4 starters were Big Z, Gooden, Gibson, and Pavlovic) to the finals in 2007, led the league in scoring for a season, post near-triple double stats for multiple seasons, and win the MVP award in back-to-back seasons isn’t considered to be a superstar. Why isn’t he a superstar? Cause he doesn’t have the “mental toughness” to lead his team to a championship? Look at his playoff numbers… except for two games in last season’s Boston series, he is exceptional in the playoffs.
I mean, I understand not liking the guy or thinking he’s not the best player in the league, but to say he’s not a superstar boggles my mind.
"It seems like my whole life I’ve been this little Canadian kid dreaming somebody would give me a chance."
That isn’t that great of a task. The East really sucked then. Kobe could have done that with his Laker team in the East and probably at least win one game against the Spurs.
Don't trade Dudley!
it still doesn't deny that he went past detroit in the ecf
at that point the pistons were a powerhouse and were only a few years removed from a championship, in the deciding game of that series didn’t lebron get 48points and the score the last 25 of the cavs points, thats a superstar game.
Right, he’s got the killer instinct, but not the mental toughness nor basketball IQ. The Pistons should have won. They choked and they’ve done so on numerous occasions since Larry Brown left them.
Don't trade Dudley!
I'd actually argue the opposite
that the most lacking part of his game (other than the fact that he’s got a huge size advantage at his position and yet can’t post up) is his lack of a killer instinct. I actually think his understanding of the game/basketball IQ is good (not necessarily great) but it’s his lack of killer instinct that doesn’t allow him to understand that the best basketball play is not always the best play in the clutch (ie passing to mo williams or boobie gibson to take a last second three, a drive and kick play which would probably be the better play for the first 43 mins of a game), but with better teamates this year this lack will probably be negated/ reduced.
As for the detroit game whether detroit choked or not they were undoubtedly the better team and probably had 4 of the top 5 players in that series. Some credit has to go to Lebron for dragging cleveland to the finals it can’t just be blamed placed on detroit for choking.
Lebron just needs to grow up like Kobe did. If he can do that he will be better. I always knew Kobe was good, but never put him in the same conversation as Jordan until 08 when he seemed to finally mature and be a better basketball player mentally. Lebron shares a lot of the same weakness as Shaq did. Shaq never grew up and as I said already, Shaq’s Impact was just so great that it covered his weakness.
Don't trade Dudley!
It wasn’t just that. It’s how he dwelt with the trade situation afterwards. More like late 07. I was impressed with him before he got Gasol. As soon as the season started he shut up and quit whining unlike Marion in that same year.
Don't trade Dudley!
hmmm I don't remember it that way
he sulked into the season. Even at Christmas, he still wouldn’t commit to their long-term future. What got better is that the team was winning in spite of him (without him playing better than prior years). Their bench really got good.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Also, when he gets hurt he keeps playing. He doesn’t cry about it unlike Lebron who says his elbow hurts and that’s why he didn’t play well.
Don't trade Dudley!
But, you're saying that the guys who don't have rings don't have them because of whatever fatal flaw they have
The difference between championship-winning Kobe and non-championship winning Kobe isn’t mental toughness, or basketball IQ or any of that other stuff. Kobe wins championships when he has a Shaq or a Pau. He doesn’t win them when he has a Kwame Brown or a Brian Cook.
Speaking of Kobe's injuries
Am I the only one that suspects that they are either exagerrated or completely fabricated in order to make him seem more heroic?
He’s always playing through some totally painful injury, yet he never shows any signs of being injured. Look at Brandon Roy in the playoffs last year – that was a guy playing through an injury.
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
It’s a finger injury and it did affect his shot last season except when he played against us. People use to call him “Kobrick Bryant”.
Don't trade Dudley!
Beavis, I think you're clouding
facs with your personal judgment.
Both Kobe and LeBron refuse to blame their injuries on their performances, yet the “team” makes sure everyone knows when an injury exists.
Find a quote where LeBron blamed his elbow.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Perhaps your right, but he lacks something that Jordan and all those guys had and I know it’s something mental. For some reason I can just tell that he’s lacking something.
Don't trade Dudley!
Lot of difference in a finger and an elbow, and how it affects your shot.
Kobe’s finger is arthritic – it probably is going to deteriorate from here on out, which (I think) is why he worked so hard to use it with a cast on.
Lebron’s elbow was surely hurting him in those games – he didn’t make excuses. Maybe he doesn’t have as high of a threshold for pain – I don’t know. But I’m not sure that disqualifies him from ‘superstar’ status.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
He just lacks the mental toughness. He’s not a leader. He throws fits. He’s even afraid to lose a dunk contest. He just doesn’t have the mind of a superstar. Or in other terms, he doesn’t have the mind to be one of the ‘Best of the Best". To me that is what a superstar is and to you guys it isn’t. That’s ok. That is my view of a superstar. I wouldn’t put Lebron in the same category as Jordan, Duncan, Magic, Kobe… I know I’m right about Lebron, but I hope I’m wrong about Nash. I would like to put him in that category.
Don't trade Dudley!
I wouldn’t put LeBron in the same category as MJ right now, but I would say he is a superstar in today’s game. It’s tough to compare across eras.
I wouldn’t say Nash is any less impactful because he lacks a killer instinct. He’s one of the most impactful players in the game, right up there with LeBron and Wade. He is the reason the Susn have been the best offensive team in the league.
Championships are a result of the perfect storm. There are so many things that have to go right. I still don’t understand why a lack of championships makes one any less of a player, unless the player directly caused his team to fail. I’m sick of hearing this argument.
Championships are a result of the perfect storm. There are so many things that have to go right. I still don’t understand why a lack of championships makes one any less of a player, unless the player directly caused his team to fail. I’m sick of hearing this argument.
True, but most players who have all 7-8 aspects I mentioned above have a Championship. It’s not Nash’s fault that he couldn’t win a Championship. His teams have just never been good enough. I’ve never felt like going into the playoffs that we were good enough. If Nash had that Killer Instinct than we and he would be even better. Not having that is what separates him from the best of the best, not the fact that he doesn’t have a ring.
Don't trade Dudley!
I would argue that his teams were not lucky enough.
Some of those teams, including last year’s, were good enough. But anyone who doesn’t think that luck, or fortune, or karma, or whatever plays a part, then I have one word for you – airball.
As far as a killer instinct, making the right pass to win a game IS a killer instinct. What you are really saying is that Nash isn’t perfect, that he hasn’t always made the right decision. Your argument is circular – the best team doesn’t always win. Jordan went a lot of years before he won, and he had some sucky games in there, too. Lebron will win several – I hope not too soon. I think you’re making too much out of one game, but you aren’t alone in that.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
by haremoor on Sep 2, 2010 10:22 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
+1
Thanks haremoor. I don’t know where this stuff is coming from lately – Nash isn’t clutch, Nash doesn’t have a killer instinct, what the hell else does the man have to do? Are people purposely being ironic? Cause that’s the only explanation I can come up with.
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
trolling on SSR i found this...and of coarse had to reply
Screen name: pslakerfan
Real name (optional): John
Occupation: Contractor (in other words unemployed)
Age: 34 (35 in a few weeks)
Gender: don’t ask, don’t tell (of course if you know any females named John that would be pretty strange)
Hometown: Palm Desert
Story behind your screen name: ps as in Palm Springs, Laker fan as in Laker fan. (real original I know……sue me)
How you became a Lakers fan: Grew up in LA in the 80’s, had a friend who’s brother was a friend of Michael Cooper. No, I never got to meet him.
Favorite Lakers memory of all time and of the 2009-2010 season: This seasons best memory would probably be Artest’s game winner. The way the team and Kobe embraced him was pretty cool.
All time would be Kobe’s game tying layup and game winning jumper to beat the Suns in 2006 playoffs. I was there with my 9 month pregnant wife.
Most heartbreaking Lakers experience: The next three games of the 2006 playoffs. My daughter was born a few hours after Game 7. I wanted to name her "fuckstevenash". I didn’t.
Favorite Lakers player: Derek Fisher
Greatest all-time Laker: Kobe. Love Magic. Love Jerry. Love Kareem. But nostalgia clouds the mind.
Last time you went to a game at Staples Center and/or at the Forum: Round 2 game 1 of 2010 playoffs.
Opposing team, player you dislike the most: JR Smith. ’nuff said.
Interactions with Lakers players: Got to watch the Lakers practice at my school one year. Not sure why, but they did for a couple of days.
Most cherished piece of Lakers memorabilia you have: I have lots, but lately I am partial to my replica championship ring.
"I’ve been in the league 14 years and I don’t think I’ve been called for a carry yet. It’s news to me," "I’ve never heard anyone complain about me carrying the ball. The best coach in the league Gregg Popovich didn’t have a problem with it last week."
who can a guy who is not clutch with no killer instinct induce a desire to name a child “fuckstevenash”
my reply
http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2010/8/23/1637740/getting-to-know-your-fellow-ssr-ers#45064249
"I’ve been in the league 14 years and I don’t think I’ve been called for a carry yet. It’s news to me," "I’ve never heard anyone complain about me carrying the ball. The best coach in the league Gregg Popovich didn’t have a problem with it last week."
*how
"I’ve been in the league 14 years and I don’t think I’ve been called for a carry yet. It’s news to me," "I’ve never heard anyone complain about me carrying the ball. The best coach in the league Gregg Popovich didn’t have a problem with it last week."
Of course luck can have affect. We usually don’t have any. However, we just weren’t deep enough. 8 guys who could play and one of them didn’t even fit in anymore(Diaw). They just weren’t good enough. They were good, but not good enough to beat SA. Last year, I thought was our best team since 93, however, we still weren’t quite good enough. We needed a bit more size and some better perimeter defense.
Don't trade Dudley!
signature move like in WWE
Jordan-the fade away shots
Kobe also the fade away
Duncan the bank shot..
hehe just kidding
Kobe, Dirk, Wade?
Where are they
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
TURRIBLE!
Well at least Kobe,
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
TURRIBLE!
Great post, Beavis. Rec'd.
Your analysis of Jordan, Shaq and Duncan is spot on, but I’m not sure it’s fair to say that Nash lacks killer instinct or that LeBron lacks killer instict and mental toughness.
Nash had a lower ceiling than these other guys. Shaq, Duncan and LeBron were all guys that everybody knew would be #1 picks, and they were expected to be superstars. Jordan was drafted #3 because another HOF-er, Olajuwon, was picked ahead of him, and because the Blazers were boneheads and took Sam Bowie ahead of him. Nash was selected #15 overall, and then the Suns were so impressed by him that they traded him for…..Martin Müürsepp, Bubba Wells, the draft rights to Pat Garrity and a first-round draft pick(!!!!). It was hardly a given that Nash would become a superstar, given his talent, but he did. He has left no untapped potential. I can’t believe that a lack of killer instinct is why he hasn’t won a championship.
As for LeBron, the man’s 25. Most of his story is still to be told. Can you find another 25 year old who has accomplished what he has? Yes, you can find younger players who have won championships (Kobe comes to mind), but not as the alpha dog on the team. Michael Jordan was 28 before he won a title.
but I’m not sure it’s fair to say that Nash lacks killer instinct or that LeBron lacks killer instict and mental toughness.
If you look and observe more closely you will find that I’m right about them. By the way, when talking about Mental toughness, I’m also including Basketball IQ and Lebron doesn’t have a high basketball IQ like Bird, Jordan and Kobe do. Because of that I’d rather have Kobe lead my team than Lebron. If you took Bird’s brain and placed it in Lebron’s body you would have probably the greatest player ever. Now put Lebron’s brain in Bird’s body(when he was in his twenties) and Lebron wouldn’t be so good now, would he?
Yet, Nash doesn’t take advantage of his shooting and scoring abilities as often as he should. What I saw in game 5 against the Lakers from Nash is what I need to see more of. Sometimes, Nash can get too passive and that’s his problem. That is what separates him from the best of the best not a Championship(although it would help).
I
can’t believe that a lack of killer instinct is why he hasn’t won a championship.
It’s not, but it would certainly make him better and make the team better. Nash has never had a good enough team to win a Championship. Star Pg’s need a true big-man to win a ring.
Yes, you can find younger players who have won championships (Kobe comes to mind), but not as the alpha dog on the team.
Dwayne Wade won it in his 3rd season. Wade is truly a superstar. Shaq during that time was still good, but on the decline. It was Wade’s team or in other words he was the #1 guy. Shaq was #2.
Great post, Beavis. Rec’d.
thank you.
Don't trade Dudley!
4th quarter. One eye. Ten points. = Killer instinct.
Or how about when his nose was gushing blood? How about if he came out with one leg – would that convince you?
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
by haremoor on Sep 2, 2010 10:29 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Mental Toughness, but Nash isn’t the kind of guy to give a hit. I didn’t say he’s never done it, but that he’s too inconsistent and can get too passive. He needs to shoot more.
Don't trade Dudley!
the nash abides beavis....the nash abides
"I’ve been in the league 14 years and I don’t think I’ve been called for a carry yet. It’s news to me," "I’ve never heard anyone complain about me carrying the ball. The best coach in the league Gregg Popovich didn’t have a problem with it last week."
LeBron James has high basketball IQ. You shouldn’t confuse a head for a the game with your distaste for the man. You can claim that’s not what it is, but I won’t believe you. Everyone who is that good at the game of basketball has a high understanding of the game of basketball.
Same goes for mental toughness. Everyone who can perform at a high (basketball) level with the most (basketball) pressure possible on them has mental toughness. The weak-willed don’t take over basketball games when it comes to crunch time. James does.
As for Nash not having a killer instinct…..What? We’re talking about Steve Nash here, right? Not Graham Nash?
From what I’ve seen, Lebron doesn’t have it.
Nash sometimes has that killer instinct, but other times he’s too passive. He’s inconsistent in that aspect. He could be deadly if he could learn when to turn it on.
Don't trade Dudley!
Then you haven't seen enough.
Nash is #1 in the NBA in assists year after year for a reason-it’s part of his game. You seem to want him to get selfish at the end – and if he’s open, he’ll take the shot. But I think other teams may suspect that the best shooter to ever play the game might take a shot at the end of the game. So they defend him. And he passes. As he should.
Kobe had an amazing 7 or 8 game winning shots last year. People forget that he missed more than he made.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
+1000
This is exactly why we need to enjoy Nash as much as possible the next two or so years. Damn are we gonna miss him.
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
As do I.
A player always taking the clutch shot doesn’t have a killer instinct, he has a low b-ball IQ. Steve almost always makes the right play for the time. Just because he doesn’t force a shot doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a killer instinct.
Kobe can do it and still be successful because he’s freakishly good at making difficult shots. And like haremoor said, he’s still missed an awful lot of those difficult shots.
for me it will look like this
supra-jordan
between supra and super-kobe,bird,magic,shaq
super-lebron,nash,duncan,wade,hakeem
between super and al-star-howard,durant
alstar-ginobili,richardson
star-granger
It's hard to distinguish and group a thing
If categories are limited. More category it is, much easier to group.
But sometimes it is not the fact
One thing to take into consideration
Is that Nash doesn’t pocess near the athleticism of Jordan or Lebron, etc. Yet, he’s capable controlling a game. A superstar pocesses the ability to take control of a game on a regular basis. Durant is the next biggest superstar and he has the personality to maintain that status.
I know and I kind of mentioned that. Nash can’t take control of a game, specifically late in a game on a regular basis though. He just doesn’t have that killer instinct that you see in guys like, Jordan, Kobe, Duncan and even Ginobli to do so.
Don't trade Dudley!
I'd love to participate
but I’m not really good at this stuff. And I’d probably have a different definition, with no basis in fact behind it.
My def: a guy who carries his team to multiple championships
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
right
Like I said, no basis in fact. Just an opinion.
Certainly, by the dictionary definition they are superstars.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
I think he fits into that one category where he's the best at his position and a perennial All-Star but...
not quite at superstar status yet. For us Suns fans, he might as well be. But compared to the rest of the league’s best, he’s just not on the Kobe, Garnett, Shaq, & Duncan level.
Steve Nash is my mancrush. But Goran Dragic is the 2nd coming of Manu Ginobili, which makes him just as tasty.
I like your Superstars
And I think Nash does fit into your description of “Borderline Superstars”
The reasons we love Nash is because he is a great Guy and many Off the Court Reasons.
He is arguably the best current PG to play Basketball.
But he has a few knocks on his RESUME which do not allow him to be a superstar. Eg. Defense – Which would be because of his physical limitations of height / spread & speed.
I do not agree with your assessment that Nash does not have killer instinct though. Remember he literally runs the Suns Offense on Every Play. That means the kind of workload he carries with the cast around him is HUGE. He may have had the services of arguable the best current PF in the league (At least Top 5), but at any and every other spot we are average or below average during most of his tenure (SG / SG & C)
His Impact on SUNS Wins is undeniable that to me shows Killer Instinct. I can easily see the SUNS lose 20-25 more games w/o Nash every Season. (Just a Servicable PG like Fisher / Blake / Miller)
Killer Instinct is not only about taking over games when it matters most. It is also about keeping the team close enough and allowing it a chance to win in late game situations. Taking over games when it matter most is more of a “CLUTCH” quality which Nash usually does not show OR he lacks due to his pass first Mentality.
Hate to repeat myself, but...
su·per·star (spr-stär)
n.
1. A widely acclaimed star, as in movies or sports, who has great popular appeal.
2. One that is extremely popular or prominent or that is a major attraction.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
by this definition
Nash is definitely a superstar.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Maybe we should just rate them 1-100 - less about semantics.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
I understand the LeBron hate
Although I didn’t really get caught up in it. I think that what Miami did has made the 2010/2011 season more interesting.
But to dock points from a 25-year-old player for not having won a title is a bit silly. Jordan didn’t have a title at the age of 25. Neither did Shaq.
I also don’t agree that he lacks a killer instinct. Just watch game 5 of the 2007 ECF, Cavs v. Pistons to see my point. What he did in that game, on the road against the two-time EC champs, was absolutely superhuman and the timing of it couldn’t have made it much more clutch.
Not to mention that he took a team to the Finals that consisted of Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, Boobie Gibson and Eric Snow playing major minutes.
Good post, though.
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
I don't hate ______
I’m just so overloaded with him i can no longer concive of him…my _______ gasket has been blown.
But if I remember right wasn’t the east already on serios decline by then. yes the supporting cast SUUUUUCKED and he still made the finals, but only to get swept. that said _______ is an awsome talent and i still contend no one was done it alone.
"I’ve been in the league 14 years and I don’t think I’ve been called for a carry yet. It’s news to me," "I’ve never heard anyone complain about me carrying the ball. The best coach in the league Gregg Popovich didn’t have a problem with it last week."
I read it already
and i likede it, just adding my thoughts
"I’ve been in the league 14 years and I don’t think I’ve been called for a carry yet. It’s news to me," "I’ve never heard anyone complain about me carrying the ball. The best coach in the league Gregg Popovich didn’t have a problem with it last week."
OK, wait.
Now I’m even more confused. You’re saying he has a killer instinct, but lacks mental toughness? All due respect here Beavis, but I think you’re grasping at straws.
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
About Lebron has.
Perhaps I shouldn’t put mental toughness and Basketball IQ together. Those who have mental toughness usually can control themselves when they lose. Lebron just isn’t that smart compared to the other stars. Superstars are leaders and I consider leadership a part of mental toughness. He has the body and the talent of a superstar, the potential to be even greater than he is now, but he lacks the mind. He isn’t a good leader. Not only that, but he rely s too much on his athleticism to score. Would you call him a superstar if he was in Larry Bird’s body? Do you believe he would be as good as he is now?
Don't trade Dudley!
Again
He is 25 years old. How many players display unquestionable leadership at the age of 25? Duncan and Wade are literally the only players I can think of since Bird and Magic that fit that bill.
And no, I don’t think he would be a superstar in Larry Bird’s body. But come on, if that’s your basis of comparison, 99% of the players in the league will look like scrubs.
Yes, I agree that LeBron is not yet the complete package. But he’s done enough as of now to earn superstar status.
The word superstar is starting to sound silly. We’re talking about basketball players, but I keep having visions of Elton John in star-shaped glasses and platform shoes.
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
Thanks for that image, RMason.
Buh, Buh, Buh Benny and the Jets…
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
So you agree that Lebron doesn’t have the mind of a superstar because he’s young and yet you still consider him a superstar?
That’s where were different. Can Lebron grow up? Yes, but until than he’s just a borderline superstar that will make the Hall of Fame and I will never put him in the same category with Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Micheal Jordan, Kobe…
And no, I don’t think he would be a superstar in Larry Bird’s body. But come on, if that’s your basis of comparison, 99% of the players in the league will look like scrubs.
It only proves how great Larry Bird was than, huh. Just imagine if he had Lebron’s body? I honestly believe that Jordan and Kobe would still be superstars if they had Bird’s body because they have the mind.
Don't trade Dudley!
How about we limit the discussion to players in their own bodies?
Trying to imagine Nash in Shaq’s body, with Vujabitches dick, and would he still bone Maria … it’s just too much.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
Wait,
How about Goran Dragic in the body of Eric Montross?
Robin Lopez in the body of Earl Boykins?
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
I'd like to see Michael Jordan in Shawn Bradley's body
by East Bay Ray on Sep 3, 2010 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions
There are two kind of CLUTCH players
1. Those who love to stick a dagger in the other guy when he’s down.
2. Those who can’t stand to lose and keep getting back up.
LeBron is the former, but not the latter. He loves to pile on. He’s a frontrunner.
Nash and Duncan fit with second one, but not the first.
Kobe is both, like MJ was.
Nash needs to shoot more, especially in the clutch. He does that on a consistent basis and he will have that killer instinct. As good of a passer he is he’s also one of the greatest shooters of all time and ha knows how to score too.
Don't trade Dudley!
Nash takes whatever the defense concedes.
If they give him the shot, he takes it. If they leave someone open, then Nash will get the ball to them. I don’t see what the criticism is about, Nash always finds the highest percentage shot available. What’s not to like about that? Are you advocating that he just starts blindly shooting more, even if the defense isn’t conceding the shot? In other words, you want him to be more like Kobe?
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
Yes, that’s what he needs to do. Nash is a better scorer than people give him credit for. He’s amazing at taking and making difficult shots and finding ways to score. If he sees someone like J-Rich open for a shot in a clutch situation I’m sure he will pass the ball like Jordan did to Kerr, but he needs to shoot more.
Don't trade Dudley!
Alright, will just have to agree to reach a disagreement.
I’ll tell you what, watch this season and watch Nash carefully. If you start thinking that he needs to shoot more in those clutch situations, than I’m right about him lacking that killer instinct on a consistent basis. If not and you see Nash do what he did in game 5 on a consistent basis than I’m wrong and you can shove it in my face. I hope I am wrong.
Don't trade Dudley!
Gettin my face shovel ready.
This thing is badass looking, isn’t it? And it’s actually called a face shovel. I want one.
I've been watching Nash carefully for the past 6 years.
The dude is alright. I have not once thought to myself “damn he needs to shoot more.”
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
Agreed. Nash doesn't suck.
I think he’s a keeper.
by East Bay Ray on Sep 3, 2010 12:02 PM MDT up reply actions
I don’t think Nash sucks. He’s just not a superstar in my book. He’s a borderline superstar.
Don't trade Dudley!
For shame, Ray.
This is a very serious place for serious conversation. It’s no place for your insufferable tomfoolery.
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
or shananagins...
"I’ve been in the league 14 years and I don’t think I’ve been called for a carry yet. It’s news to me," "I’ve never heard anyone complain about me carrying the ball. The best coach in the league Gregg Popovich didn’t have a problem with it last week."
no ballyhooing
and we wont stand for hoopla and shakainery or hucksterism
"I’ve been in the league 14 years and I don’t think I’ve been called for a carry yet. It’s news to me," "I’ve never heard anyone complain about me carrying the ball. The best coach in the league Gregg Popovich didn’t have a problem with it last week."
I will concede there are times I thought he should shout just like those kobe lovers on SSR sometimes wish kobe would pass sometimes (theyd never admitt it though). but nash is not kobe and kobe is not nash they both killer instinct they both change the game but in different ways…who I am to question the greatest offensive floor general of his generation. when it’s time to shoot he’ll shoot
"I’ve been in the league 14 years and I don’t think I’ve been called for a carry yet. It’s news to me," "I’ve never heard anyone complain about me carrying the ball. The best coach in the league Gregg Popovich didn’t have a problem with it last week."
I think this discussion is descending into a maze of semantics
With all of these subjective labels being thrown around. I understand that trashing LeBron is all the rage now, just like trashing Kobe was all the rage before he got Pau and won 2 championships without Shaq. But, to suggest that Nash hasn’t squeezed every last bit of achievement out of his talent is baffling to me. Sorry, Beavis, but I trust Nash’s judgment on how to run the offense, and his decision-making on when to shoot or pass, more than your opinion that he needs to shoot more.
Alright I guess we're running into the old square peg, round hole (hee hee) problem.
Lebron is being compared to Bird, Nash is being compared to Kobe, Sasha Vuju’s penis is on Shaq’s body……..
Square pegs, round holes.
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
Yeah, I probably shouldn't have put Sasha's willy on Shaq.
It probably wouldn’t make Shaq happy. The Big… nah, it just doesn’t work.
Auntie Em: Hate you, hate Kansas, taking the dog.
Dorothy
Superstar!
To me, a superstar is someone who transcends the game they play. They make fanatics out of people who before would rarely watch the game. Superstars are:
Wayne Gretzky
Michael Jordan
Ken Griffey Jr
Barry Bonds (unfortunately so…)
Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlin
Pete Rose
Hank Aaron
Joe DiMaggio
Mickey Mantle
Sandy Koufax
Larry Bird
Gordie Howe
Sidney Crosby
Peyton Manning
Brett Favre
Joe Montana
Walter Payton
Barry Sanders
Lebron James
Shaquille O’Neal
Bill Russell
Pete Maravich
Michael Johnson (Track and Field)
Usain Bolt
Michael Phelps
Carl Lewis
There are so many more SUPERstars. Any athlete who makes a fan out of an average person is star, but to make multiples of fans from other sports, from other teams, turn on the TV and watch you play because it’s YOU, that is a superstar. It’s such a different world with web access and sites like www.baseball-reference.com or www.basketball-reference.com where you can get any stat you want or go to Youtube to watch any play you want. But back in the day, people used to sit down to watch TWIB or NBC’s NBA game of the week, solely because Magic was playing Bird or MJ was playing anyone or the Dodgers were playing the Cardinals and it was Koufax vs Gibson. All across America people rarely got to see certain players play, but they were a fan of that player because in outer Mongolia, everyone knew the name of Gretzky, Namath, Dr J, and Mays. They transcend their sport.
I think you forgot a couple
that list is not nearly long enough.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Mary Catherine Gallagher?
"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic
I was just trying to give a decent sample
of stars that transcended their sport…sure there are a decent amount more.
Yawn.
The dictionary (several online sources) literally describes a superstar as “a famous person in sports or entertainment”.
I like the deinitions above much better. Dictionaries be damned.
There isn't a single acceptable situation for the question "Is this game almost over yet?" Not one.
by Basketball GF on Sep 3, 2010 4:42 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
how the hell is lbj a borderline ALL STAR?
dudes the best in the NBA when you look at the whole package
" Only build on positives , don't stack the negatives...Instead of criticizing , what was a positive?" - Donavin Darius
"There is nothing like a wise phrase or quote to help convince others that your decision makes sense." - Anon
"If you're ever in a fair fight, then your tactics suck." ಠ_ಠ
I've already got my customized Heat #6 Jersey with "Robin" on the back ordered.
Tis going to be a great year.
In God we trust, all others must bring data.
by PandRisDead on Sep 5, 2010 11:50 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Haha already in the works, now we just need to get someone to wear a Bosh jersey with "Batgirl" on it.
In God we trust, all others must bring data.
More like Alfred.
Steve Nash is my mancrush. But Goran Dragic is the 2nd coming of Manu Ginobili, which makes him just as tasty.
well, Shaq called Bosh the RuPaul of the NBA
so Batgirl or Catwoman probably fit best for Bosh…
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
He's hosting an event right up the block from me in Oct with Wade and Bosh
Unfortunately none of my friends would want wear a “Batgirl” jersey so we might have to settle for Batman & Robin jerseys.
In God we trust, all others must bring data.
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