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Around SBN: News And Other Updates Leading Up To Pats-Giants

Phoenix Suns 2010-2011: With No Power Forward, Is It SSOL All Over Again?

Read all the articles around the Suns lately, and you'll see precious little about how this current rotation will actually play out the season.

Will it be the hybrid "12 Seconds Or Less" from last season?

Or, without a true PF, will the Suns be forced to return to the "7 Seconds Or Less" from the 2005-2007 era?

Or will they try to "4 Out" scheme of the Orlando Magic, with one guy in the middle and 4 on the wing?

Even the Suns players don't know yet.

Star-divide

"Everybody feeds off Steve and Amare," Dudley said in an exclusive interview with Seth Pollack yesterday. "Let's be honest: 90 percent of our offense is pick-and-roll. He made me better, he made Channing better. Now it's an unknown. Anytime you have an unknown, expectations are low."

Considering that Hedo Turkoglu is quite effective as a pick-n-roll ballhandler himself, it looks like the Suns have a handful of instigators (Turkoglu, Nash and Dragic) but not enough "roll" men. Or, at least, not the best roll man in the game today.

This is like the chicken-and-the-egg dilemma that's plagued mankind for centuries. Did Nash's passes make Amare look like the best finisher in the game? Or did Amare's incredible skills make Nash the best passer in the game?

But that's ancient history. The Suns PG Steve Nash knows its time to turn the page.

"I'll just embrace the challenge of plugging in new pieces," Steve Nash said in a recent azcentral.com interview. "Trying to make it work and make everyone feel good about what we're doing [and] try to spread those guys between the two (off-guard) and four (power forward) at times."

But how will the Suns do it?

Since Amare has missed all of one season and half of another since Nash returned in 2004, we can look at the recent past to see how this team measures up to those.

2005-06 season

54-28 regular season record, 10-10 playoff record, Western Conference Finals

That season was, in retrospect, a down year for the Western Conference. The only true threats to San Antonio's dynasty were the upstart Dallas Mavericks and the banged-up Phoenix Suns.

Ultimately, Dallas benefited from a Manu Ginobili brain fart (fouling Dirk on a 2-point dunk attempt with 3 seconds to go and a 3 point lead in game 7) and yet another Phoenix Suns injury. In that WCF, the Suns were missing 3 starters: PF Amare (all season), C Kurt Thomas (since January) and SG Raja Bell (pulled calf in game 1).  Couple those losses with Mike D'Antoni's inexplicable benching of sparkplug Eddie House - the same Eddie House who played the same role successfully for Boston the very next year - and the Suns were trying to play Dallas with 6 players. No wonder they ran out of gas in every second half.

Let's compare the teams:

2006 2011
Nash 6'3" Nash 6'3"
Bell 6'5" Richardson 6'6"
Diaw 6'8" Hill 6'8"
Marion 6'7" Turkoglu 6'10"
Thomas 6'10" Lopez 7'0"
Barbosa 6'3" Dragic 6'4"
Jones 6'8" Childress 6'8"
House 6'1" Dudley 6'7"
    Warrick 6'9"
    Frye 6'11"
Ave Height 6'5.6" Ave Height 6'7.8"

Most obviously, the 2010-2011 team is taller and deeper. And with Earl Clark, Gani Lawal and Dwayne Jones waiting in the wings, this current team could withstand some injuries and still keep trucking along.

Frye provides the same offense that Tim Thomas gave in 2006, but is bigger and plays better low-post defense than Tim Thomas ever did.

There's no Marion on this current team, but there was no Turkoglu and Dragic to help Nash run the offense, and no Childress and Dudley to sub in on the wings.

And that 2005-06 had ZERO pick-n-roll finishers. Marion would slash and covert the occasional alley-oop, but who else would finish at the basket? That team was built on Nash running the show the entire game without the threat of a pick-n-roll finish. This would eventually earn him his second consecutive MVP. 

In constrast, the 2010-2011 team has Hakim Warrick and Robin Lopez to the pick-n-roll. They each have proven in their careers that they are good roll men in the pick-n-roll. And this team has 2 more pick-n-roll facilitators in Turk and Dragic.

But don't discount the 2010-2011 team's ability to drain the 3-ball too.

Skeptics warn that the Suns' ability to hit 3s will dry up without a "true" inside game, but look at the actual numbers.

2006 2010
Team 3-pt % 39.9% Team 3-pt % 41.2%
Att/gm 25.6 Att/gm 21.6
> 38% Ave. 6 > 38% Ave. 6
A/g Margin 8.2 A/g Margin 2.3
M/g Margin 3.9 M/g Margin 2.1
   
2006 2010
% Jump 73% % Jump 67%
% Close 27% % Close 33%

In 2006, without any sort of inside presence, the Suns rained 3s from the perimeter to the tune of more than 25 attempts a game and converted 39.9% of them. (2009-2010 was better, to be sure, at 41.2% but let's give the 2006 team a break. The 41.2% was the best EVER at the current 3-pt distance)

And this was on 73% of their shots being from 10+ feet away of the basket. In contrast, this last year's Suns team (and all the team's since 2005) were more like 67-68% jump shots vs. 32-33% from close in.

So, will the 2010-2011 team resemble the 2005-06 SSOL team?

Not likely. The 2010-2011 team is much bigger, deeper and has more of an inside presence, yet can still hit the 3-ball with the best of them.

 

The second-half of 2009 (after Amare's injury)

16-13 regular season record, no playoffs

This was the only other time that a Nash-era team played without Amare. Gentry dubbed that team "Seven Seconds Or Shaq". But in reality, that team was more of a half-court team than any since Nash returned. Playing Shaq 30 minutes a game will do that to you.

Let's compare the teams:

2009 2011
Nash 6'3" Nash 6'3"
Richardson 6'6" Richardson 6'6"
Hill 6'8" Hill 6'8"
Barnes 6'7" Turkoglu 6'10"
O'Neal 7'2" Lopez 7'0"
Dragic 6'4" Dragic 6'4"
Barbosa 6'3" Childress 6'8"
Dudley 6'7" Dudley 6'7"
Amundson 6'9" Warrick 6'9"
Lopez 7'0" Frye 6'11"
Ave Height 6'7.3" Ave Height 6'7.8"

There are several familiar faces between the team at the end of 2009 and today's team, but the talent difference is significant.

Dragic, Dudley and Lopez are all better than their 2009 version. Today's Lopez is even better than the 2009 Shaq, in this system..

Amongst the newbies: Turkoglu/Warrick > Barnes/Amundson at PF, and Childress > Barbosa at backup SG.

Even factoring in a decline for Grant Hill, the 2010-2011 team is light years ahead of the 16-13 late-2009 Suns.

 

The 2008-2009 Orlando Magic

It's worth mentioning that the 2008 and 2009 Orlando Magic played a scheme called "4 Out" with Hedo at the F spot with skinny Rashard Lewis.

No one could stop this team with a pair a 6'10" 3-pt shooting forwards along with scrappy guards and a monster (but offensively challenged) C in Dwight Howard.

The Suns' defense will have to be different than Orlando's, since the Suns don't have a Dwight Howard.

But the Suns' offense just might resemble that "4 Out" one, except even more powerful with Nash at the PG spot instead of Jameer Nelson/Rafer Alston.

Hedo will drive opposing PFs crazy with his game, and force opposing coaches to play a smaller lineup to keep up with the Suns on the perimeter. This just plays into the Suns's hands on defense, allowing Hedo to match up against a smaller player.

 

What does this all mean?

We don't know.

We just know that this PF-less team is way more talented and versatile than any prior PF-less Suns team.

If the chemistry is good, and everyone figures out how to play together as a team, the Suns will win 50+ games.

How far they get in the playoffs will be greatly dependent on the their playoff seed. Last season, the Suns needed wins in their final 2 games to nab the 3-seed vs. the 6th or 7th seed. Homecourt advantage is key to winning playoff series.

One final thing we know: It does not matter what the other teams in the Western Conference have done this summer, or how much they've improved on paper.

In six years, NO ONE outside of Phoenix has knocked the Suns off the 54+-win pedestal.

No one but the Suns themselves in 2009. And even that year, it took a bonehead play by Matt Barnes against Utah to knock the Suns out of the playoffs even amidst a sea of turmoil.

Trust in Nash. Trust in Hill. And get ready for a long playoff run. 

Comment 64 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Hey

where’d all the rebounding analysis go?

Still good though.

by waxmonkey on Sep 8, 2010 9:40 AM MDT reply actions  

I had spent all day on that damn article

I was sick of it by then, so I wrote the other half of it instead. I’d always planned to do 2 parts – one on offense, and one on defense. I’ll rewrite the defense/rebounding version this weekend.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Sep 8, 2010 9:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

well

I’m glad I got to read it in its enirity before calamity struck

"I’ve been in the league 14 years and I don’t think I’ve been called for a carry yet. It’s news to me," "I’ve never heard anyone complain about me carrying the ball. The best coach in the league Gregg Popovich didn’t have a problem with it last week."

by 2NASHTY on Sep 8, 2010 9:49 AM MDT up reply actions  

never tell me the odds

now punch it chewy

"I’ve been in the league 14 years and I don’t think I’ve been called for a carry yet. It’s news to me," "I’ve never heard anyone complain about me carrying the ball. The best coach in the league Gregg Popovich didn’t have a problem with it last week."

by 2NASHTY on Sep 8, 2010 10:10 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Roger Alpha Lima.

Cleared for takeoff, make right traffic runway 21.

by waxmonkey on Sep 8, 2010 9:49 AM MDT up reply actions  

Roger, Roger

Clearance, Clarence? Tell me Tommy, have you ever seen a grown man naked?

by jc79 on Sep 8, 2010 3:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

who are you

Uncle Diddles?

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Sep 8, 2010 4:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

do you like gladiator movies?

"I’ve been in the league 14 years and I don’t think I’ve been called for a carry yet. It’s news to me," "I’ve never heard anyone complain about me carrying the ball. The best coach in the league Gregg Popovich didn’t have a problem with it last week."

by 2NASHTY on Sep 8, 2010 5:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks

For all the effort alex,Were gonna shock the world I have to agree with houstons rudy t “never underestimate the heart of a champion” we may not be champions but our suns are winners!

by stevedavis_ on Sep 8, 2010 9:58 AM MDT reply actions  

Just keep scrapping, Suns.

I think the starters will start to resemble the play of the second unit last year. Last year’s second unit had Frye and Lou at the 4 and 5, which meant no roll man and no inside scoring threat, but they were able to extend leads and spark comebacks by scrapping for rebounds and loose balls and raining down threes at the other end. This will be fun.

"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic

by RMason on Sep 8, 2010 10:04 AM MDT reply actions  

The inside scoring threat on that squad

was Dragic and Barbosa being able to get into the paint. Dragic is still here. Hedo hopefully makes a good penetrate and kick guy.

by jc79 on Sep 8, 2010 4:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

Ok

I was speaking within the context of the 4 and 5 guys (Frye and Lou). We could debate over the semantics of dribble-drive penetration vs. inside scoring, but then we would just look silly.

"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic

by RMason on Sep 8, 2010 4:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

don't worry

you already look silly

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Sep 8, 2010 5:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

Dammit I knew it! Why didn't anyone tell me my ass was so big!

"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic

by RMason on Sep 8, 2010 5:17 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

I love that insurance commercial

where Abe Lincoln is in the background while this hefty lady asks him “does this dress my butt look big?”.

He stands there waffling for several seconds, before saying, “A little”… classic.

I love scenes with silence that speaks a thousand words…

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Sep 8, 2010 5:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

sweet

and another new commercial that got me laughing:

the Pig in the carseat leaning out the window yelling “Wee Wee Weeeeee!” all the way home. Another classic, in a different vein.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Sep 9, 2010 7:47 AM MDT up reply actions  

Grant/Dudley

I think it’s important that Hill is a starter for this team due to his tenure and what he’s done for the team over the last few years, but I hope to see more of Dudley with the first unit and Hill with the second unit.

Dudley with the first unit gives Nash and Hedo another spotup shooter to spread the floor, and Hill’s steady hand and calming influence would be valuble on the second unit to ease things for the Dragon.

"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic

by RMason on Sep 8, 2010 10:07 AM MDT reply actions  

Right.

The more I look at this roster, I have a hard time believing that Gentry will stick to the same two-unit rotation as last year. As awesome as that was, this team just has too many unique parts and combinations to group them into two halves.

Nash should get time with Warrick, Hedo should get time with Frye, Childress and JRich would be a nice wing tandem, and Al Gentry has the best coaching gig in the NBA.

"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic

by RMason on Sep 8, 2010 10:45 AM MDT up reply actions  

Lou amundson to New Orleans!!

"Remember this sh*t at christmas!"-Terry Crews, The Expendables

by Bkj on Sep 8, 2010 10:16 AM MDT reply actions  

Really?

How much cheddar did he get?

"We didn’t go for coffee and this kind of stuff."
-El Dragon on his relationship with Sasha Vujacic

by RMason on Sep 8, 2010 10:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

No Idea just woke up and saw a little tab saying amundson headed to NO.

Terms of the deal are not disclosed, it seems

"Remember this sh*t at christmas!"-Terry Crews, The Expendables

by Bkj on Sep 8, 2010 10:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

they are just the front-runner

but GS was saying THEY were the front-runner too.

Link to the story you saw?

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Sep 8, 2010 10:32 AM MDT up reply actions  

Right Here, but now that you mention it, Mark Millar is not the best reporter out there, so it remains a bit sketchy

"Remember this sh*t at christmas!"-Terry Crews, The Expendables

by Bkj on Sep 8, 2010 10:34 AM MDT up reply actions  

thanks

I’ll bet Lou gets 10 rebounds in 20 minutes in his first game against us.

of course, half of those rebounds will be tap-backs on his own missed layups… ;)

I will miss Lou greatly.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Sep 8, 2010 11:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

lou-hornets

Ive read all the no reports too as of 9-9 10:45 am est still not seen anything official.

by stevedavis_ on Sep 9, 2010 8:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

What if Lopez got hurt for weeks and Dwayne Jones came out of nowhere and started pulling down 10+rpg thus making Gentry want to stick with him in the starting lineup. Lopez comes back from injury, how would we deal with that? Somebody would have to go. Hey, I can hope can’t I?

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Sep 8, 2010 11:41 AM MDT reply actions  

We can get a lot more rebounds

If only we didn’t make so darn many shots.

by suns68 on Sep 8, 2010 12:42 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions  

“That sounds like one of them good problems.” – Marlo

by waxmonkey on Sep 8, 2010 3:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

Nice post Alex

Appreciate the extra effort.
One question – do you have the comparative ages for the 06 and 10-11 teams?
I always felt the decisive factor in the 06 team was that they except for Curt Thomas, they were young and superbly conditioned from all that running D’Antoni made them do.
The current team is taller than the 06 squad, but still smaller than their most likely playoff opponents.
I suspect they’ll need the 09-10 offense and the seven seconds or less offense to get very far.
Especially against the Lakers, the Suns won’t win without running hard and getting a lot of scoring chances before the defense is set.

by suns68 on Sep 8, 2010 12:32 PM MDT via mobile reply actions  

I don't have the ages per team

but I suppose someone could look them up.

but just from a glance, the 2010-2011 team is older. Nash, Richardson, Hill, Turkoglu are all 30 or older.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Sep 8, 2010 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

Jrich turns 30 in January and Hedo turns 32 in March

"Remember this sh*t at christmas!"-Terry Crews, The Expendables

by Bkj on Sep 8, 2010 1:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

But you guys got that kick butt youthful bench

that made our starters drag a bit last year!

I don't do it for your thanks, I do it because I had a calling, but I do love the support you give me and my Soldiers.

by Sarge Clemins on Sep 8, 2010 2:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

Turkey can’t be beaten.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Sep 8, 2010 12:44 PM MDT reply actions  

I guess Dragic will be coming home soon.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Sep 8, 2010 12:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

yeah I'm at work just following the box score

looks like Turkoglu had a great first quarter.

How does Dragic look?

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Sep 8, 2010 12:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

Not good. 5 points. End of 3rd. Turkey has dominated them in every aspect of the game. Dragic is coming home and he’s going to need some cheering up by us fans. I wonder how Serbia will fair against Turkey. They have been able to pull off two upsets already.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Sep 8, 2010 1:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

turkish team is playing in trans

they demolished slovenia… dragic again played poor against good team… they wouldn’t have won even if he scored 30 and dished 20 assists, but I expected him to show up, take over at some point, show leadership… but he didn’t…

anyhow, I think they play two more games for 5-8 place… hopefully he will not play much, god forbid get injured…

by zeze_999 on Sep 8, 2010 2:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

Indeed, Goran did not show up tonight.

But that can be said for the entire team. I’m not sure there is a way Slovenia could ever beat Turkey playing like that and in front of home crowd, but it would be nice if they at least left everything on the court.

Blaz

by Blaz13 on Sep 8, 2010 2:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

kinda like when they played USA

I wonder if the team thought they had a real chance to win

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Sep 8, 2010 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

from the comments

and interviews before the game, they said, they can win, but it’s one thing to say it, other is actually believing it, ‘cause it seems they didn’t believe it. They played like that. The only guy who from my perspective showed some heart was Sani Becirovic.

Blaz

by Blaz13 on Sep 8, 2010 2:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

Seven Seconds or Less, Seven Seconds or Shaq, 12 Seconds or Less, I don't care

I believe in Steve. As long as he is here, we will be fine. Marion, Amare, Raja, Boris, Leandro, Kurt, Tim, JJ, Q, Junior, Eddie, Jimmy Jackson….they’re all missed, but I believe in Steve.

Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."

by rsavaj on Sep 8, 2010 1:16 PM MDT reply actions  

Thats what I'm tawken bout

"I’ve been in the league 14 years and I don’t think I’ve been called for a carry yet. It’s news to me," "I’ve never heard anyone complain about me carrying the ball. The best coach in the league Gregg Popovich didn’t have a problem with it last week."

by 2NASHTY on Sep 8, 2010 2:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

james jones

"I’ve been in the league 14 years and I don’t think I’ve been called for a carry yet. It’s news to me," "I’ve never heard anyone complain about me carrying the ball. The best coach in the league Gregg Popovich didn’t have a problem with it last week."

by 2NASHTY on Sep 8, 2010 5:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

I believe in Steve, too

It’s too bad he wasn’t retained as GM!

by Julie H on Sep 10, 2010 5:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

I hope its nothing

But did anyone notice in coros blog j dudley kept refering to the team as “they”,I didnt like that.

by stevedavis_ on Sep 8, 2010 6:00 PM MDT reply actions  

wasnt that in context of the front office

and the moves made over the summer?

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Sep 8, 2010 6:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

yeah, I just re-read it

he only said “they” in context of the front office. He used “we” the rest of the time when referring to the team.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Sep 8, 2010 6:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yes i guess after re-reading its understandable,However jd makes me nervous because in the back of my mind I get a uneasy feeling jd wants a bigger stage than the valley.Also I would hate to see his impending free agency even beign restricted,Cause any distractions for the team

by stevedavis_ on Sep 9, 2010 8:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

Curse you Alex!

I wrote a FanPost similar to this, pointing out all the different weapons this team still has and all the directions it can go offensively. I’ll probably post it anyway when I get a chance, but some of it will be a bit repetitive.

by Omaha Sun on Sep 8, 2010 9:31 PM MDT reply actions  

Alex - Thanks for the Re-posting

Enjoy reading all of your stuff. What always worries me is playoff basketball especially how physical/street it gets. Do you think with the current team they are tough enough? I know Robin will floor people if given the chance, is there anybody else who is physical enough?

by saint13 on Sep 9, 2010 1:07 AM MDT reply actions  

I think it all depends on Robin

just as Jared said the other day.

(I still think the Suns will swing some sort of trade by the deadline to bring in some muscle, but likely only after someone in the current rotation either flames out or gets injured)

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Sep 9, 2010 7:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

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