It's Time to Pull the Plug on the Steve Nash Era
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 6:38 PM MST
in Phoenix Suns Commentary
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PrintTo lift the curtain and step behind it, that is everything. And why this hesitation and delay? Because we do not know what things look behind it.
-Goethe
Time to bite the bullet. Pull the plug. Look to the future. Put the muzzle in our mouths and...
Trade Steve Nash and Grant Hill to a contender for the biggest return on investment.
This season is lost, the window is closed. The only thing left for us true purple blooded Suns fans is pain and misery. At least for a season or two.
Offseason
The 2010 off season acquisitions of Josh Childress, Hedo Turkoglu, and Hakim Warrick and the resigning of Channing Frye was anticlimactic in most respects, but in hindsight were strong business moves. Sarver was hedging his bets by picking up 3 players with the unlikely potential to pick up the slack left by Amare Stoudemire's departure. And if the deals didn't work out, the men were all tradeable-that is, they all had reasonable contracts and market value. At the time we heard words to describe the signings as "adding depth, talent, and flexibility." Guys like myself bought into the talent part and hoped for the best as far as chemistry. But I (we) were wrong. Hedo didn't fit, Chill got hurt, and Warrick proved a one trick pony. The good news is that Hedo and his awful contract are gone, and both Warrick and Childress are decent NBA role players that could be tossed into any deal or dealt by themselves.
Flexibility may be a very vital role in life for anyone. But in a corporation it is critical. Flexible business model, flexible parts of the machine, the ability to change while remaining profitable. This is rebuilding, Suns style. For now anyway.
Present
The Suns, as they stand right now are a snake-bitten squad. Lacking confidence, expectations smashed, new faces and brains trying to fit into the system. It is all too much to handle. Too much for Alvin Gentry and his staff, too much for Nash to quarterback, too much for fans with high expectations to weather.
We crave a big 4 to fill Amare's spot, but that is only one small piece of the jigsaw. A big is certainly needed, but another trade enshrouded with expectations of positive change is impossible. As we have seen this season, change smacks consistency in the face. Change is the opposite of continuity, and the result of a lack of both consistency and continuity breeds uncertainty. Things could work, or things could not. 50/50, man. But we have all seen the result of rolling the dice with the our last hundred bucks, praying for the jackpot. Vegas always wins.
The lineups have changed, the roles have changed, the personnel have changed. In the meantime losses have been mounting. Not just "hey we played hard but couldn't pull it out..." but also the type of soul crushing losses that leave a team looking for answers where there are none. We hear quotes like "we need to work at it...we need some time." Work is good. Blood, sweat, tears. Sure. But it doesn't always make one a winner.
Orlando Trade
The Suns dealt Jason Richardson, Earl Clark, and Hedo Turkoglu to the Orlando Magic for Marcin Gortat, Mikael Pietrus, a first, and Vince Carter. Again the Suns FO obtained value and flexibility. Vince Carter is only taking up space until he can be dealt or his contract runs out. In return good ol' Bob is once again hedging. Robin Lopez has returned form injuries and proven confused, docile, and obviously ineffective. Will he return to prime 2010 form where he proved vital in parts of the season when he wasn't injured? We can only hope so. Marcin Gortat may be a lot of things, and motivated is one of them. That along with intelligent and athletic usually produces a quality big man in the NBA. Pietrus may be a chukker, but he is young, cheap, and has the right attitude. Most 2's are streaky.Most quality 2's have size. Pietrus fits the mold, and most importantly he is young and could be molded into a 3. He is what he is right now, but it doesn't mean he cannot change. They key is he as potential, is motivated, and is coachable.
Aside.....
Last week before the 76ers game, there was an air of excitement and possibility as Vince Carter was to play his first game in a Suns uniform. Hell, some people were even breaking out the bearded one's old nickname, Vinsanity. The era of Vinsanity. How, 2001 is that? But in his office before the game, Alvin Gentry accidentally waxed nostalgic for Amare Stoudemire and Jason Richardson as he spoke about last year's run into the WC Finals. It was enough to make one take melancholy notice, swallow hard, and for a moment, come close to shedding a a couple of purple and orange tears. Last year was so very special. Do you remember it? Up and down and up and down then finally up. We heard little from the pundits and national media about how storied the season was for the Phoenix Suns. If a book called ":07 Or Less" could be published, so could a novel about the Suns v. 2009-10. What would you call it?
Future
The good news for us fans is that the Suns have a nice group of young core players. Jared Dudley is a gamer that brings 110% effort every night. Goran Dragic, although inconsistent, is an athletic, quality NBA talent who has an excellent attitude and has shown signs of dominance in clutch situations . Marcin Gortat is an above average, hard nosed, NBA big man with a chip on his shoulder and some skills. Channing Frye is serviceable, wants to be in the desert, and has multiple dimensions to his game. Mikael Pietrus is also a youngish, serviceable player who can D it up and hit from deep. Robin Lopez needs to decide if he is healthy or not, if he wants to play basketball or not. Right now, he still has trade value although he has played mostly awful this season. The Suns FO should be open to trading him for a decent return. Hell, no one on this squad should be untradeable.
With two first rounders in the upcoming draft the Suns could pick up some young, quality, cheap talent. Dealing Hill, Nash and Carter could yield at least another 1st rounder and or a decent 4 or PG. Who? Let the masses rosterbate together, I never learned how to effectively rosterbate.
Conclusion
The problem now is that of expectations and hope. After last season's improbable deep playoff run along with Amare Stoudemire's departure, we hoped for the best despite realizing we had lost a very huge reason for our team's success. The Suns went through ups and downs like crazy before settling in when it mattered. The squad never quit on a game, the team always had a chance to win. The perfect balance of age, athleticism, and most importantly, chemistry had been struck. And With Steve Nash on your squad, you don't quit, you always have a shot to pull out a W.
Of course Nash is still in town but his supporting cast is vastly different than last year's. We fans want to believe with Nash around there will always be a chance of turning around a game or, a whole season for that matter. However, it cannot happen. Will not happen. This team cannot stop anyone in the league, regardless of how simple the defensive schemes are constructed. Without Jason Richardson around the offense has sputtered. There is no go to man. It's Nash and Hill versus the world....On any given night this team can hang with the best team in the league for 3 quarters but inevitably lose. The mental toughness needed to stay focused and close out the opponent is gone.
If Nash was a superhero, he would be Batman. His sidekick would be Grant Hill as Robin. The dynamic duo are solid. The only problem is they have zero help from the Justice League. At some point you need a Superman, along with some support from Aquaman, Green Lantern, Apache Chief. Screw the Wonder Twins though. Form of a bucket of water? BS, this is the NBA.
Steve and Grant are suffering. Nash and Hill are saying the right things, thus illustrating how exceptional they are as human beings as well as athletes. They do not quit on their teammates or their fans. They are desperately attempting to rid the boat of accumulating water from the giant hole in the bow. But the hole is too big, the ship is all but sunk, Titanic style. For all of their blood, sweat, tears, sacrifice, and effort it's time to do for them what they will never ask for.
It is time to let go of the delusion that the Suns can turn this season around. It is time to let go of the past, look forward to the future.
Trade them, begin again.
Why it May Not Happen
Money. There is zero draw to a Suns game without Nash and Hill around. Maybe penny beer night would bring 'em out to the arena. The loss of revenue in ticket and jersey sales is probably unappetizing to Mr. Sarver and Co. But fans don't care about that. Fans care about W's. Fans care about a title. Neither of which are going to occur as this team is presently constructed.
Fans love to crucify the rich owners for trading their beloved players away, or not offering guys enough cash to stick around. But in this case, trading away the two most beloved assets on the team is the only answer. Eventually the draw will lessen, regardless of whether Nash and Hill are around. Losing will do that. Thus, keeping them around while the team is losing is doing no one any good. Any fan who has eyes and respect for what these two men have done for the franchise will understand what needs to be done.
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I still think
we have enough assets to aquire someone who makes a diff,One thing to watch is banker bob has never suffered futility.Will futility lead banker bob to open the wallet and go for it?But we are at a point to bet the farm to make a run with stevo or tear it down and start over,I agree we need to make a choice one way or another.
Lover,Poet,Suns fan,All around damn good guy.
We have the assets to do so, but A) No franchise would want to trade a Kevin Love or B) They wont want to come to Phoenix because of how Sarver acts
Let Josh Childress play
Over the summer the brass maintained that Phoenix is a popular destination, where players would want to go to
But upon Steve Nash’s absence, that statement loses any ring of truth it ever had.
Real name no gimmicks
I don't agree
great weather, easy (by comparison) fans, loyal fans (again, by comparison to all but LA and NY pretty much), the style will still be open, and the team has a history of winning.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Aaron Nelson is a bonus, for sure
but mostly to older players and/or players who have had injury problems in the past. For a younger, budding star, the Nelson factor is less persuasive.
Real name no gimmicks
I believe we need to be calling him...
Aaron “Mr. Miyagi” Nelson
Never lowercase the SU∩S in Phoenix SU∩S!
so we can attract players
but only if they have potential career ending injuries or old enough for retiring there. Great. Nash and Hill arent the rule they are the exception.
NYC Suns Fan!!!
sure all those factors are great
for attracting mid to upper mid-level talent. Elite players want to go where the talent is
Real name no gimmicks
Hard part is how to you send them to a contender
And get back what you want?
I can see finding a home for Grant being easy, he’s pretty much just plug and play. But getting Steve is an identity change, the fringe teams that have shown interest in him aren’t contenders and would still be a piece away if they acquired him.
Also, the teams that have the best rebuilding assets usually aren’t contenders.
by hcblankscreen on Jan 10, 2011 6:54 PM MST reply actions 2 recs
Bosh is not a piece to build a franchise around imo
by underxthebridge on Jan 10, 2011 6:58 PM MST up reply actions
I'd rather have leaders like Steve Nash and Grant Hill
Over Chris Bosh. He’s a good, talented player, but Steve Nash AND Grant Hill? No way in the world that’s a good trade.
Now, maybe it it was someone like Dwayne Wade or Lebron James, then it would even out a little more, but that’s not happening, and Steve Nash and Grant Hill bring a lot more to this team than other players could.
by Skii on Jan 10, 2011 6:59 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
the suns would just be the raptors
of the lasr few seasons, and the Heat would not get past the second round
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
I appreciate the love for those guys...
…but lets be real here. Nash and Hill are at the end of their careers. Their value doesn’t extend much past next season. Bosh still has a bright future in the league.
For real..
Why would Miami do something like that…? They are rolling right now..That woul sjust weaken their calling card…..Defense…
I don’t see that making them any better…
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, I'm thankful!
I know that, but it really is a start. He proved down in Toronto that he could play fairly well.
I think the trade that the FO should really look into to get back good assets is nash and fropez or gortat for smith and teague
Let Josh Childress play
CHRIS BOSH IS A ROLE PLAYER!
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i wouldn't call someone who made the all nba second team last year a "role player"
vote steve 4 all star game! he can still beat cp3!!!
by 2time on Jan 11, 2011 10:08 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
This
Its easy to day trade them, its harder to come up with viable options. The latter is why I’m in favor of keeping these guys. I just can’t come up with a trade that makes sense.
by underxthebridge on Jan 10, 2011 6:57 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
I think hcblankscreen is correct.
We’d need to find a trade that brings Phoenix future prospects (in young players with future star potential and/or quality draft picks) that will approach a value of what Steve and Grant bring to this franchise, in order to consider it.
I can see sending them to a shit team(s) and getting back quality picks. I can see sending them to a quality team(s) and getting shit picks. I don’t see a way to send them to a team where they can contend for a title while simultaneously getting something of value for them.
A consideration: sending them for young talent is generally better than picks, as we can assume Steve and Grant will improve whatever team they land on, thereby reducing the value of those picks. Unless those picks belong to some other team, perhaps.
A problem: anyone willing to give up young talent must believe that they must improve to win, and that they can win by about 2013 at the latest with the addition of Steve and Grant. Who would that be?
Dallas?
OKC?
Atlanta?
I can’t find the right trade option to make the fan backlash and tanking ticket sales worth enduring to make us better in the long run. This might be a reason that Babby is so sure Steve will play out his contract in Phoenix. There just doesn’t seem to be a better choice for the Suns, no matter how poorly we might do.
Further consideration
The Nets may be a possibility. With a possible future roster including Brook Lopez and Carmelo Anthony, adding Nash and Hill could quickly put them into contender territory a la Miami, and would satisfy the “do right by the good guys” part of the deal.
Unfortunately, with the clusterfuck that currently is the Anthony proposed trades, it’s difficult to see what assets the Nets would have to part with after selling their souls to pick up Anthony. The nice thing is they will still likely not have a good record at the end of this year even if they put that team together tomorrow, so their draft picks would still have some value.
Assuming they have any draft picks left to trade.
in the proposed trade
NJ would only have 5 guys available to package by the deadline. all others would be frozen for 2 months
farmar
b lopez
humphries
outlaw
graham
forget nj
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 10, 2011 8:51 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Well yes, I made that point.
However, we don’t know what the trade will look like when (if?) it finishes, and if Phoenix were proactive we could be a part of it.
Anyway, I’m not suggesting we should, or that it’s the best option – or even any realistic option.
But if we’re seriously considering rosterbating Nash and Hill, then I’d like to see some reasonable suggestions as to how it might pan out.
by waxmonkey on Jan 10, 2011 9:38 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
no kidding
I’m on your side on this one. Let’s hear some actual realism.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 10, 2011 9:42 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
We can still turn it around
Give it a few games. I know I’m being completely optimistic, but I have a feeling that the game against the Cavs will give them confidence, which is badly needed. I’m sure they’ll start playing good The problem is, they haven’t played enough in the same lineup to be able to develop good chemistry.
Give it a few games. I’m sure we’re going to start seeing a better Suns team. I’m positive this team can do great things this season. It just took a little time (Or a lot of time).
by Skii on Jan 10, 2011 6:55 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
The West is fairly weak and 6, 7, 8 and 10 do not impress me. I think we still have a real shot at the playoffs. Last 2 games Robin has woke up. Think this idea is far too early.
by tuck321 on Jan 10, 2011 6:55 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
We have seen signs of life before from Robin
and then, he gets frustrated.
Real name no gimmicks
The heat didnt start the season 5 games under five hundred-the heat have three superstars, one of whom is a PF.
Let Josh Childress play
the heat
have three pretty great players all in their prime or approaching their prime
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 7:10 PM MST up reply actions
Cavs?
This wake-up game came against the Cavs not a team with a talented frontcourt.
Just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't happen.
What does a playoff appearance really do?
Yes it makes Sarver and Co. more money, but it only puts off the inevitable….This team trailed the worst team in the league for the majority of 48 minutes before pulling out a W. They are below .500 agains their division and conference. Who is the savior? How are the Suns going to win 50 games this season?
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 7:01 PM MST up reply actions
How are the suns suppossed to win a championship this season without anyone that can rebound the ball?
Let Josh Childress play
Championship?
HA ha ha ha…They can barely beat the Cavaliers……I’m laughing out loud right now.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 7:04 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly-but I'll tell you one thing though, if the suns wait it out until free agency and manage to pry kevin love to opt out of his contract and sign in phoenix, then the suns would be championship contenders!!!!
Let Josh Childress play
Will Steve Nash have retired by then?
If we lose Steve Nash, we lose a lot more games than this season. I mean, have you noticed how the entire team plays when Steve Nash is on the bench? More terrible than they’re already playing.
I dont know, but there is no freaking way that the scenario up there will happen because kevin love is unathletic power forward that is also undersized that will be loooking for max money this offseason
Let Josh Childress play
Charles Barkley was undersized too
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He's certainly round...
I think you mean you couldn't care less because if you could care less it means that you care a little bit.
But he was an athletic freak...
Not in the sky high formula of STAT, but the quick-leaping of Matrix….
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, I'm thankful!
no sir
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 7:11 PM MST up reply actions
it was a trade, was it not?
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It was, but what I am saying is the chances that sarver will give love a max contract are pretty low
Let Josh Childress play
Well, his contract is probably insurable
unlike Amar’e
Real name no gimmicks
Yeah, but for the reason I described, there is that air of doubt on whether or not to sign him
Itst he Frugal approach
Let Josh Childress play
All we have to do is manage to get ourselves into the Playoffs
Once we’re in, anything can happen! It’s the Playoffs!
No, wait, I think I got the NBA and NFL switched.
8th seed against the Spurs
sounds fine to me
Real name no gimmicks
looking and rooting for that
"Men do not quit playing because they grow old; they grow old because they quit playing."
by sun_equalizer on Jan 10, 2011 7:11 PM MST up reply actions
I think it would be a jerk move to send Steve Nash to a bad-mediocre team
I mean, he’s sacrificed some of the best years of his career to this franchise, trying to get them a Championship. Sending him to a bad team that isn’t going to do anything in the next few years is like saying, “Hey Steve, thanks for what you’ve done the last few years, but screw it, we really don’t care about that stuff”.
Who suggested that?
I suggested sending them to a contender. If you are a Cavs or T-Wolves or Kings, you don’t want a 36-7 year old blocking your up and coming rookies.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 7:03 PM MST up reply actions
I kinda did, but I was joking-Shii is right, he deserves to win a chip befores he bows out
Let Josh Childress play
What contender's going to want him, though?
I mean, sending him to the Lakers/Heat and getting something good in return is a win for everyone, but they’re already sort of set with their teams.
by Skii on Jan 10, 2011 7:05 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Also this
The teams with the best pieces for rebuilding are the non-contenders. We can’t really have our cake and eat it too on this one.
by underxthebridge on Jan 10, 2011 7:03 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
Steve is already on a bad-mediocre team
I don’t think anybody worse than the Suns have shown interest in Steve and anybody that acquired him would be trying to “win now”.
by hcblankscreen on Jan 10, 2011 10:04 PM MST up reply actions
Maybe I'm just an insensitive asshole
(well I am) and I’ve made this point before but I don’t really care about Nash/Hill getting a title. If they get one, super. I’ll be happy for them, but in no way shape or form would I want the Suns to take a worse offer from a team with a better chance at the title if a team in a worse position to win offered a better deal for our franchise.
Strange to say Steve “sacrificed some of the best years of his career to this franchise” – I think this team and this system he’s been able to play in has taken him from a fringe All-Star guard (twice in 6 seasons with Dallas) to a Hall of Famer. Also he’s collected about 70 million in salary since he’s been here. Dude has made out alright here.
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Jan 11, 2011 12:56 AM MST up reply actions 7 recs
I don't think
sarver is really considering to trade nash/hilll just to make them happy… he has proven many times, even if the moves were bad (a’la shaq) that e is doing what (he thinks) is best for Suns rather than players he is trading… so no worries there…
+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
if I could
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Completely agree
I’m a Suns fan first and a Nash/Hill fan second.
by underxthebridge on Jan 11, 2011 7:23 AM MST up reply actions
Trade them
Don’t wait for the trade deadline
"Men do not quit playing because they grow old; they grow old because they quit playing."
Good on ya, Wil.
You get the “Ol’ Yeller Award” for having the courage to take the dog behind the shed and doing what needs to be done.
Twitter: @MikeLisboa
by Mike Lisboa on Jan 10, 2011 7:12 PM MST via mobile reply actions 2 recs
I miss Ol'' Yyeller...
Bet he made some hellacious worm-food, though….
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, I'm thankful!
Sadly, I agree
Nash and Hill deserve to be on a winning team, as classy as they are. No one deserves to win more. I’ll miss them like crazy though… Top notch players and individuals. All class.
by SunsDynastyXcom on Jan 10, 2011 7:15 PM MST reply actions
Which winning team is going to trade for them?
If a winning team is willing to trade for them, will they give us anything that’s worth even taking a look at?
Atlanta?
do they have anything?
Real name no gimmicks
Sending Nash to Atlanta is not being gracious at all
Atlanta has a reputation as the WORST FO in the league. Absolutely terrible. People sit here and bitch about Sarver and the Suns FO… but they have no idea what a bad FO looks like.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
by Eutychus on Jan 10, 2011 9:10 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
Yea, I’m glad we’re not the worst. I really don’t understand why they gave JJ a max contract when he’s already turned 30?
Don't trade Dudley!
Some people are just like slinkys, they're good for nothing
yet can still manage to put a smile on your face
when pushing them down a flight of stairs.
I'm not even talking about the JJ contract this year
I mean more than a decade of suck
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
Eutychus, please take this in the joking manner it is intended.
I think I finally understand your pendulum theory. Being a Suns fan this season is like enduring the pit and the pendulum. That’s what you meant, right?
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
~Phillip K. Dick
by East Bay Ray on Jan 10, 2011 10:11 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
sure, why not.
Did you think STAT would get his max money after the Suns couldn’t deal him for two years? Anything and everything is possible, especially as we get closer to the deadline and teams are looking to improve.
The lust for a Championship makes orgs take a lot of chances.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 7:18 PM MST up reply actions
Let's see how the next few games turn out
If the Suns revert back to the way theyv’e been playing this whole season, then I’ll start to lean towards the “We’re not going anywhere” side.
But if the Cavs game gives them confidence, and they turn it all around, then I’m sticking with the “Heck yeah, Steve Nash is awesome, life is good, let’s go Suns, win it all, yes!” side.
From the sounds of how the locker room sounded after the game
the win did not do much in the department of confidence building. Struggling to beat the Cavs might have been the culprit.
its funny
when we lose it is still a moral victory, and when we win, its a moral loss..
we need a psychologist to balance this out for us.
NYC Suns Fan!!!
Or a really good win where the team plays solid basketball for 48 minutes…like the OKC game for example
Raising Arizona Sports at SB Nation Arizona twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 10, 2011 9:22 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
After the outcome of the subsequent games in that instance
the Suns would probably need more than one win like that to regain confidence.
Real name no gimmicks
A couple of things
First off, I think everyone would readily agree this team is going nowhere. Realistically, they don’t have the pieces to make a serious run at anything and at best they could end up a 7 or 8 seed this year. But I’m getting pretty tired of reading about how we should cash in now and trade away Nash & Hill to a contender and start the rebuilding process now.
Who exactly are these contenders who have excellent pieces to build around?
Miami? They are tapped out.
New York? See above. Also not a contender so a laughable idea.
Boston? Who do they give up? Nash doesn’t fit their system anyway.
Dallas? I’m not sure who they give up either. Best fit based on his friendship with Dirk + Kidd’s age.
San Antonio? Nash doesn’t fit their system.
Orlando? I don’t see it. And they don’t have the length to be considered a contender anyway.
Lakers? Nash doesn’t fit their system.
Discussions like these are a moot point until people can start offering up solutions. It really is akin to telling someone they need to do their job better, without telling them how to do it better.
“Hey auto industry, you should make cars with better gas mileage!”
by underxthebridge on Jan 10, 2011 7:17 PM MST reply actions 4 recs
The auto industry has a model to work with
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But my statement was one without direction.
If someone tells you simply to do your job better without telling you how or what exactly needs to be done better, you’d ask them to clarify.
by underxthebridge on Jan 10, 2011 7:21 PM MST up reply actions
your not doing a very good job explaining this
explain it better.
jokes.
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It'd also be like
telling airline companies to reduce flight time across the continental US. That’s a no-brainer, everyone would love it. How do you get it done?
I would love to leverage Nash and Hill to position the Suns for the future. How do we get it done? No one is providing reasonable solutions to this. Instead, it’s a lot of “trade them and rebuild.”
by underxthebridge on Jan 10, 2011 7:24 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
totally agree with you
Real name no gimmicks
"Everyone would readily agree this team is going nowhere"
Not true. I still believe in this team. Maybe I’m just too optimistic. That might be the case. But I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: I believe in the Suns.
We should trade carter back to Orlando for dwight Howard. Bing bang boom problem solved.
by Migonads on Jan 10, 2011 7:22 PM MST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
There are buyers for Nash and Hill
You just took the top 7 teams in the league and gave reasons why it can’t happen. But how do you know what their FO is thinking? Would Nash come off the bench for a championship? Do you know he certainly would not? What motivates Nash?
You mention 3 teams that Nash “doesn’t fit their system.” What does that mean? Nash is a point guard who averages over 10 assists a game. He makes other players on his team better. How does he not fit a system? If he creates baskets for his teammates, he fits a system.
What about peripheral contenders? What about teams that are one or two pieces away? You listed 4 EC teams and 3 WC teams. What about the other 9 that make that playoffs?
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 7:26 PM MST up reply actions
Could you name some teams that would be interested in Steve Nash?
Are they contenders? Do they have anything worth giving us? Would it be worth our time? Would Steve Nash be happy?
Wil doesn't know that. Neither do you. Neither do I.
That doesn’t mean such teams don’t exist. As much as many of us here think we’re NBA GMs, we’re not. Nash and Hill are players who can help teams compete for a championship. There will be suitors. To presume there won’t be potential trade partners out there is a mistake. None of us know all the wheels that are moving in NBA front offices.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
~Phillip K. Dick
by East Bay Ray on Jan 10, 2011 10:17 PM MST up reply actions
Everyone...
Assuming the price is right!
Nash for Crawford – Atlanta would do that – would we?
That’s what you need to remember – getting value back is next to impossible.
Nash will fetch more than Crawford...
We don’t need any more wing players…
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, I'm thankful!
Okay
Who does Boston give up/what do they have to rebuild with? I don’t think Nash fits their system because they are a defensive minded team. Steve is not a defensive minded player. Steve also needs the ball in his hands and I don’t see him getting that, not nearly at an adequate level with Boston. Put it this way, Shaq has been a solid fit with Boston. He was not a good fit in our system, but works well in theirs.
Maybe San Antonio would work, since there has been less focus on defense with that team this year. Who do they send back? Is there any way we pry George Hill and DeJuan Blair away? I don’t think they need a backup PG and I’m not sure Nash gets to start over Parker.
LA is too defensive minded as well, and the offense is all about the triangle. That won’t work so well for a PG like Nash who needs the ball in his hands. Derek Fisher is a great fit there as is Steve Blake because they both can work the ball or they can spot up and shoot open 3’s. Nash has not shown a propensity for being a spot up shooter like that, thus I don’t think you could swap him into that system and have success.
I’m not going to run through all of the other current playoff teams because I’m not the one proclaiming to the world that we should trade him. I would agree with a move to rebuild, but I can’t come up with anything that makes sense. Thus, I’m not telling everyone else it’s time to man up and move him.
by underxthebridge on Jan 10, 2011 7:34 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
Exactly
We’re not going to get what we want for Nash, because the teams that need him(contenders) don’t have anything we want, and won’t want to give much up.
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
by rsavaj on Jan 10, 2011 8:25 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
Kind of a blanket statement, dont you think?
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 8:28 PM MST up reply actions
you mean, like your post Wil?
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 10, 2011 8:58 PM MST up reply actions 5 recs
I think the record and play speak for themselves
I’m not going to trash the team to the point where it sounds like I hate them, but I don’t think they are playoff contenders and I don’t think making the playoffs this season does them any good. The rebuild has been put off and last season will not replicate itself with the present roster. Two major pieces of last season’s success are gone, and their replacements are not talented enough to replicate their production.
On the other hand, others simply say, “no one has what we want.” That isn’t even exploring any options, and the statement is based on upon pure opinion. Not I, you, or anyone else knows what the possibilities are-that is who is available and who is willing to part with what for Nash and or Hill. Is the FO shopping anyone? We don’t know.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 9:17 PM MST up reply actions
I don't think going to the playoffs this year necessarily hurts them either
If they miss it’s going to be tight and they’ll end up with a low lottery pick….and those picks have been way more boom than bust lately. For every team.
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Jan 11, 2011 12:59 AM MST up reply actions
i think orlando is a contender
i mean, they’ve won 9 straight and have sooooooo much offensive talent
adding nash would just give the offense a super boost
vote steve 4 all star game! he can still beat cp3!!!
is there a way to get in on the supposed denver / NJ / detroit trade?
maybe collect a few guys, ala nene / harrington / murphy ( you know big guys), while sending carter somewhere, warrick somewhere, maybe childress or pietrus somewhere?
i haven’t looked at who the suns could get, but it seems feasible that they could get a couple of dudes if they get in on the trade…
oh, and i don't want the suns to trade grant or steve
unless they are asking for it… and if they ask for it, they deserve to go wherever they would like to go
please no
“collection” of harrington. another tweener who cant rebound on a 5 yr contract
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 10, 2011 8:59 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Our punchcard is almost filled out.
One more and we get a free 6’9 forward who rebounds like a 2 guard.
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Jan 11, 2011 12:59 AM MST up reply actions
Glad to know not everyone on this site is delusional. Suns are terrible this season. No playoffs for us.
I would hate to lose Steve and grant though
by Migonads on Jan 10, 2011 7:18 PM MST via mobile reply actions
ya...what would we do with out you
"Kobe doing work
Two-four on my shirt
He the greatest on the court"
by 2NASHTY on Jan 10, 2011 7:28 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Condescending
"Kobe doing work
Two-four on my shirt
He the greatest on the court"
by 2NASHTY on Jan 10, 2011 7:55 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
You can't just say trade them
You would have to consider it on an offer-by-offer basis. They should not be shopping these players, they need to play hard to get. There is good reason to wait until feb. Wait for the bulls to run at the deadline, when Nash and Hill’s value will be inflated.
Besides, I don’t think that tanking the rest of the season will provide as much benefit as it normally would. With the “impending,” “looming,” “probable,” “certainly likely,” “may or may not” lockout next year, the 2011 Draft Class will be thinner than it otherwise would be. Therefore, achieving a high 2011 pick wont really mean so much.
BTW I don’t think anybody knows how the 2012 Draft would be handled after a lockout
Real name no gimmicks
+1
Everything I’ve read about the 2011 draft is that it isn’t going to be star-studded like recent years. It is quite likely there are no franchise-worthy players that will be coming out, especially with a lockout looming.
by underxthebridge on Jan 10, 2011 7:36 PM MST up reply actions
You would have to consider it on an offer-by-offer basis.
Obviously. I woldn’t trade Nash and Hill for Samardo Samuels and Jeremy Lin.
They should not be shopping these players, they need to play hard to get.
I never said dump the two for the first deal that comes along. You can read into that, but I believe Sarver and the FO have some semblance of what a fairly intelligent basketball move is.
There is good reason to wait until feb. Wait for the bulls to run at the deadline, when Nash and Hill’s value will be inflated.
You cannot wait for the best deal to come along. If the right deal comes along tomorrow, providing the organization what they are looking for in young talent/draft picks/cap space what have you, you make the deal…It’s like dating a really cute girl you really like but dumping her because you have a feeling there’s someone hotter, smarter, and better in the sack.
…the 2011 Draft Class will be thinner than it otherwise would be. Therefore, achieving a high 2011 pick wont really mean so much.
Perhaps, but whose to say that there won’t be players that fit the Suns’ needs in this draft. You are assuming the best players aren’t seniors and can avoid the draft.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 7:41 PM MST up reply actions
plus the draft is before any announcement of lockout
likely almost everyone is in
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
No
The CBA expires at the end of the season, and one needs to be in place in order for the draft to be legal. And, with this uncertainty, underclassmen have an increased incentive to stay in college (as they wont be receiving checks.
Real name no gimmicks
No
CBA does not expire till June 30. Draft is a week before that. Draft will occur, regardless. They can’t be signed to contracts until the new CBA, but they will be drafted.
Negotiations will continue right up until midnight of June 30. Players have to apply for draft be sometime in April but can withdraw until sometime prior to the draft.
If negotiations look terrible, then maybe a few stay in college. But by doing so, they risk injury and/or hurt draft stock. Plus they risk all their brethren opting out too, turning the 2012 draft into a loaded barrel and cutting their draft stock in half.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
You're right,
I was misinformed about the CBA’s expiration date.
Real name no gimmicks
This is true
but I’m concerned that any player who is convinced that he’s a future NBA player will decide to wait a year.
Another year in college should help his draft stock (unless he thinks he’s already a number one) as he can become a more complete player, and there’s no money or additional security to be had by heading in this summer.
So the projected 1-10 picks will probably stay, the 11-30 first round picks might wait a year, and the 31-60 picks will stay. This could spell bad news for anyone using a 2011 mid to low range first round pick – as they might only land second round talent.
But we’ll know much better near the end of the season. Right now this is all speculation.
You're misinterpreting my comment, and then adding arguementative comments.
Real name no gimmicks
I think there's no other option.
Well written. A friend and I were discussing this very thing this weekend…as much as it would hurt to see Steve and/or Grant go, it just isn’t fair to keep them on this team.
Believe me…it would hurt. A lot. But it’s always better to suck it up and tear the bandage off, right?
Bright Side of the Sun, for all things Phoenix Suns. Twitter: @iamtrevorpaxton
by Trevor Paxton on Jan 10, 2011 7:32 PM MST reply actions 3 recs
Making the owner money is a good thing. It gives him the resources to spend more on the team next year. Also making the playoffs 2 years running in the West gives the team future credibility that will make it easier to bring in quality players.
Further the line about the cavaliers is silly. Lakers lost at home to a depleted Bucks team.
This team needs confidence. Gentry is a real problem but I think we can simplify things enough to work it out.
9 times out of 10 though the lakers aren't going to lose to the bucks
by Migonads on Jan 10, 2011 7:42 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Right
Just like going to the WC Finals last season allowed Sarver to spend so much on the Suns this season, right? Frye, Warrick, Turk, Chill. He spent a lot and got a great return, right?
Also making the playoffs 2 years running in the West gives the team future credibility that will make it easier to bring in quality players.
2 years in the playoffs gives a team credibility? Is that why Carmelo is signing an extension with the Nets? Did Amare sign with the Knicks because they’ve been so successsful in recent years?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$ brings in quality players unless you are a title contender like the Lakers, Celtics and Spurs.
Gentry is a real problem but I think we can simplify things enough to work it out.
So fire Gentry? Gentry isn’t the problem, his roster is the problem.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 7:46 PM MST up reply actions
Wait a second
When you say “He spent a lot and got a great return, right?” re: Frye/Warrick/Turk/Childress, it comes across heavy on the sarcasm. But a few minutes ago, didn’t you also say this?
You can read into that, but I believe Sarver and the FO have some semblance of what a fairly intelligent basketball move is.
by underxthebridge on Jan 10, 2011 7:51 PM MST up reply actions
And just so we're clear
I question Sarver’s ability to recognize a good basketball move, along with that of the new front office.
by underxthebridge on Jan 10, 2011 7:53 PM MST up reply actions
the sarcasm was that he spent "a lot"
i wasn’t talking about the return
We can all question the FO’s ability to make good moves, but the truth is that you and I are blogging while those guys are running a basketball team.
They can certainly fail. They can certainly suck, but whose really making the moves now, Babby/Blanks or Sarver? Do you know, I certainly don’t.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 7:57 PM MST up reply actions
done
you suck at this wax we could of had BGriff and D12… if only you’d done a better job.
"Kobe doing work
Two-four on my shirt
He the greatest on the court"
by 2NASHTY on Jan 10, 2011 8:19 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
BGriff and D12 sound like a late 80s hip hop group.
by waxmonkey on Jan 10, 2011 8:31 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
with MC Nashty
how sick would that be…Suck it Run DMC!
"Kobe doing work
Two-four on my shirt
He the greatest on the court"
I appreciate your well written and articulate article on this subject Wil. however, I disagree with it. Unfortunately for me, I’m very tired and I struggle with any thing longer then a few sentences. so I’ll have to wait till tomorrow to offer any well thought out and well presented counter points. an issue of this import deserves more then my usual junior high banter and stupid one liners/inside joke.
…Boll…..
cheers ‘clenk’
"Kobe doing work
Two-four on my shirt
He the greatest on the court"
Booke Title
The Fall of Slamalot?
PSN ID- presbot
by presbot on Jan 10, 2011 7:45 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
Not yet
I think we are still looking at another 4 to 6 wks before it’s time and by then, it may no longer be time.
Unless someone is beating the door down w/ a great offer, there’s more harm in moving to fast than waiting until the trade deadline.
Raising Arizona Sports at SB Nation Arizona twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 10, 2011 7:51 PM MST reply actions 5 recs
I think Gentry is a large part of the problem and we saw it very clearly in preseason. I posted either here or at my main site a study showing preseason results have a real inpact on regular season winning. Gentry perfected the art of letting the Suns get buried in almost every game. He won last year because Amare in a contract year was a force of nature.
Next season if Gentry is still coach I will consider giving up. Thi IS NOT NEXT YEAR.
frortune favors the bold and the philosophy of giving up too early is for LOSERS.
x
I think you mean you couldn't care less because if you could care less it means that you care a little bit.
by noonoo on Jan 10, 2011 7:58 PM MST reply actions 8 recs
Could we get the polar bear in exchange for Grant?
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Jan 11, 2011 1:01 AM MST up reply actions
That would be a real force of nature up front...
How’s his 10-15 foot game…?
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, I'm thankful!
Nice read Wil, I agree with most of your points. Rec'd.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
Wow.
Read my article. There, you will see that there are clearly players that, if we get one of them, will be vastly talented. By simply saying “the 2011 draft will be crap,” you’re making a stupid generalization. Have you researched the talent in the 2011 draft? Have you? Who here has? Who here can name me the consensus top 3 picks within the next minute, without looking?
I’m confident none of you can.
Nash and Hill deserve to be traded. If they want to be traded to a certain place, that is where you trade them if the other team is cool with that. If they simply want to leave, without semblance of where, then you trade them to one of the playoff teams (Lakers, Portland, OKC, Utah, San Antonio, Dallas, New Orleans, perhaps Memphis or Houston with the exit of Denver, Boston, Miami, Orlando, Chicago, Atlanta, New York, Indiana, Philadelphia). These are teams that are currently slated to make the playoffs. Whatever one of those teams wants him and makes an offer involving productive young talent (not just young talent, but the productive type) and draft picks that the FO deems acceptable.
(Sidenote: is it possible that the GM only does any semblance of anything when a trade comes around? Do you think the other 300 days a year he does nothing? Is that possible?
No, it is not. They don’t pay him for that little time. He’s obviously rosterbating as much as we are.)
If they do not want to leave, you trade what you can to a different team that is vying for a yardsale (perhaps Atlanta, Philadelphia, Indiana, Memphis, etc., one of those teams on the edge) and get a new piece to add to the puzzle.
Think of it this way: if your wife wanted to leave you for another man, would you force her to be with one of your best friends?
When fictionally asked to comment on the state of the Phoenix Suns, GM Steve Kerr said, "Arizona."
by hookedonphoenix on Jan 10, 2011 8:21 PM MST reply actions
I'm confident I can name the consesus top 3.
Don’t be an asshole.
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Jan 11, 2011 1:06 AM MST up reply actions
Damn, I really feel intelligent now...
Have you been sipping on my stash…?
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, I'm thankful!
Sarver won't trade Nash
The financial hit would be too huge for him to stomach. I truly believe that.
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
by rsavaj on Jan 10, 2011 8:27 PM MST reply actions 2 recs
it is sad to see Nash and Hill put out so much effort and lose so much.
it will be interesting to see what happens
And for Sarver…As a business man, do you put loyalty ahead of the dollar?
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 8:38 PM MST up reply actions
lol
and lose so much
you make it sound a lot longer than half a season
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 10, 2011 9:10 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
You cannot hit a button and turn everything around
If you make yet another trade (and for who?) then it’s another several weeks for chemistry to build. In the meantime you’re losing more divisional and conference games…
And it isn’t so much the amount of losses, look at who the losses were at the hands of…these are not just notches in the L column, they are losses in the minds of the players and coaches.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 9:22 PM MST up reply actions
and thats another thing
If you make yet another trade (and for who?) then it’s another several weeks for chemistry to build
why the bleepity bleep bleep does this have to be true? Lakers acquired Gasol midseason and won 9000 games in a row. The Magic just acquired 2 new starters and won 9 of 11 out of the gate. Detroit acquired Rasheed and won a championship.
Why the fuck does it always take the SUNS a thousand games to figure it out? I’m sick of the bitching and moaning. Just go out and play to win, no matter who’s next to you. There’s evidence throughout history that the right attitude supercedes the individual parts. No wonder Canada isn’t a world superpower… (I kid, I kid, just having fun with only a little bit of truth laced in there)
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 10, 2011 9:28 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
too true
I think the chemistry will develop more easily too if better more cohesive parts are in place eg last seasons team having easily defined roles compared to this team being almost too deep (if possible) and having a glut of wings with no good PFs on the roster.
a little diff
with gasol the lakers gave up bench players that meant nothing to the chemistry of the team. With the suns we would have to get rid of some of the chemistry to get someone. WIth the magic, they havent changed much since Turky left and he fit right back in where he left off.
Our problem is that maybe we have too much chemistry so that every move someone makes effects the team too much. Im sure that just made sense.
NYC Suns Fan!!!
It isn’t easy for a lot of players to get our system which is Steve Nash right off the bat. He’s too good and such a great play-maker, passer… that a lot of players aren’t ready for it and it takes them time to adjusting with Steve. Tim Thomas, Jim Jackson were automatic fits when we got them mid-season. Most guys would need time to adjust. Plugging in a PF that would be the #1 go to guy would take time, yet I’d still be for it.
Don't trade Dudley!
Some people are just like slinkys, they're good for nothing
yet can still manage to put a smile on your face
when pushing them down a flight of stairs.
So basically,
Steve is so adept at maximizing the production of his teammates that it takes an inordinate amount of time for acclimation?
Never confuse activity with achievement.
by Jim Coughenour on Jan 10, 2011 11:12 PM MST up reply actions
Ha ha Gasol
Hey man you show me a Gasol out there that the suns can pick up for Lawal and Siler and I’ll totally agree with you!
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 9:38 PM MST up reply actions
Trades work out slowly when you get shitty players
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Jan 11, 2011 1:14 AM MST up reply actions
Trades can work out quickly
You just need to get, and this is the kicker, GOOD PLAYERS who play a position you aren’t already stacked at.
I know I know, call me crazy, but when you have six 2/3s (I count Dragic, Chilly, Hill, Pietrus, JC & Dudley) and NO “proper” 4s (Frye is a great bench, 3 point shooter like Matt Bonner, but problem is he don’t back up Timmy D), you need to trade 2 or 3 of them for a four and, if at all possible, a point guard. As in MUST.
I remember the McDyess trade years ago (the first one) and that worked out great ’til the F-er went back to Denver.
We must – and I mean MUST – get a four ASAP. One that can rebound – even rebound as “well” 9as poor as he was, he kicks arse on Warrick) as Amare.
If we have to give up a few 1st rounders – so be it!
those guy
don’t grow on trees and the teams that have them aren’t going to just give them up for the Suns spare parts…contrary to popular belief, other teams are not complete idiots. At least not since Isiah Thomas left the Knicks
Raising Arizona Sports at SB Nation Arizona twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 10, 2011 11:24 PM MST up reply actions
Hickson possible in your opinion Seth?
"Kobe doing work
Two-four on my shirt
He the greatest on the court"
I would think no..
considering the Cavs have committed to rebuild and indicating he was the showpiece for their future front line…
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, I'm thankful!
Josh Smith?
For 3 first rounders, Carter and Fropez?
Might just tempt them, whilst keeping us and them under the Luxury tax.
I think we wold be giving up a little too much in that deal...
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, I'm thankful!
Seriously?
Man, you’re tough! Orlando’s 1st is 25+, ours, if we make the playoffs, 17-20. In three years, hopefully the same. Not a huge cost at all IMHO, and it really gets us a piece.
NBA Hoem Attendance...
Is dictated purely by the current record. The research on this is solid:
“Yes, as The Wages of Wins argues, an individual team’s gate is driven primarily by wins (or to put it another way, we should not be surprised that the Denver Nuggets – even with Allen Iverson – are on pace to draw fewer fans this season).”
http://dberri.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/the-myth-of-the-declining-nba/ (you’ll have to get the book to read it!)
So trading Nash ONLY hurts the revenue if we continue to lose, not just because Nash left.
Having said that, attendance ON THE ROAD is dictated by players – e.g. if Iverson was a draw card and played for Sacramento, that would HELP the SUNS attendance figures when we played the Kings.
Sorry...
I meant record – not current record. In other words, winning teams have more fans at the game (seems self evident really!)
This is just an opinion so don't backlash me for disagreeing with some of you
Yes it was definitely depressing watching our most recent games. And again I do agree in a way that rebuilding is possibly the teams best bet.
However when I look at those losses in the last 9 games, we had 5 different starting line ups. That’s quite a few in a short span, and that also leads to bad chemistry on the court with the players. I thought Nash and Hill were being asked to do way too much. I mean having to play with a different line up consistently is tough. The communication is not there, guys pointing fingers, not on the same page, shots not falling, etc. All I’m saying is that yes it’s easy to assume that the teams play those last games was pretty bad, but you have to look at the coaching as well.
But finally Gentry decided to make a smart decision and stick with a rotation. I Honestly think that if we stuck with a regular rotation, we’d have a better record.
by iceythril on Jan 10, 2011 8:46 PM MST reply actions 3 recs
i agree
and that is why we wouldn’t run a team very well. a few loses and we are ready to trade our franchise player. This is panic is so unnecessary right now. There is still plenty of ball left in this season.
NYC Suns Fan!!!
by DustinAe on Jan 10, 2011 8:54 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm just glad there's not
Plenty of “boll” left in this season
Bright Side of the Sun, for all things Phoenix Suns. Twitter: @iamtrevorpaxton
by Trevor Paxton on Jan 10, 2011 9:19 PM MST up reply actions
Suns fans are soooo spoiled!
I have watched this team for 23 years now, and as we are all aware have had to endure only a handful of non-playoff seasons. Last year this team far surpassed anyones expectations. Really they caught lightning in a bottle. This year is not going how any of us hoped, so you are advocating $hi#canning the whole season?! I would very much like to see Nash and Grant get rings, the only way that could possibly happen is to give both of them away to a contender. Than pray to the BB gods for the #1 overall in the next draft. Half a season of bad play is no reason to panick. My god we are not the Clippers, TWolves, or Warriors.
" Dick Bavetta and Moses parted the Red Sea together". ----Charles Barkley
by thedoovage on Jan 10, 2011 8:51 PM MST reply actions 4 recs
Making the WCF last season and then becoming a lottery team
makes perfect sense for most of us to be pissed. As you can see (or if you know) not many teams go through such a terrible turn around after a very successful season. I believe only two teams besides us went through the same situation as we did after making the conference finals their previous season.
So yes it sucks being in that little percentage of teams turning into a lottery team the next season right after you had a good chance of winning your first NBA title.
hell, with our record we’d be the seventh seed in the east right now
by ArizonaCactus on Jan 10, 2011 9:12 PM MST up reply actions
The Suns aren't in the east, so what's the point?
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 9:23 PM MST up reply actions
and i wasn't responding to you, Alex
im sticking my tongue out at you
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 9:39 PM MST up reply actions
we are in the same boat whether we trade them or not
we aren’t going to be a contender either way. so you may as well keep them and sell some tickets.
I honestly think that Nash is fine where hes at as long as they are contending. I dont think getting a ring is going to define his career. As long as they are playing good basketball, he is happy.
Sarver isn’t looking at this like “i want to make Steve and Grant happy.” he is a business man and has a team to run.
Trading them solves nothing for us in the short or long run. Getting young talent now speeds nothing up until we know what is happening with the new CBA.
All of this discussion is moot in my opinion.
NYC Suns Fan!!!
by DustinAe on Jan 10, 2011 8:51 PM MST reply actions 2 recs
A goos couple of points
but people are going to stop coming to see Nash and Hill when the squad is losing 11 out of 14 games. Nash is fun to watch but when his behind the back passes continually end up in the seats because his roll partner has no clue whats going on, people are going to get tired….
No a ring won’t define his career. He is a hall of famer without it. However, the team is going nowhere, they aren’t playing good basketball (and haven’t for the majority of the season), and if you’ve been reading his quotes, it’s clear Nash (as well as everyone else in the organization) is not happy.
Trading Nash does not necessarily leave the Suns in the same boat as now. You are either losing now with aging veterans and a bunch of role players with no hope, or you’re losing and looking to the future with some exciting youngsters (eventually)…Yes you take a financial hit this season and perhaps the next few, but speaking as a fan, I don’t really care about Sarver’s bank accounts. He’s got plenty of cash, and if he runs out, sell to someone with some $$$$.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 9:05 PM MST up reply actions
You are right
but my point about sarver is that i would highly doubt that he would turn down a really good trade offer to a non-contender because he is afraid hill and nash would be mad at him.
maybe they have the ability to void the trade.
I agree with what you said there, i just dont think sarver gives a damn whether nash and hill are traded to a contender or not.
NYC Suns Fan!!!
I don’t think we should trade Nash or Hill. Maybe package Carter and Pietrus for some draft picks. Things can change very soon if we draft right, plus this year we have a couple of picks for a change.
DO NOT TRADE NASH OR HILL!!!
Just wait a little bit, this season may not be that great but this summer we could get Kevin Love!!!! He doesn’t like Minnesota and will love playing with Nash!!! Imagine this
PG Nash
SG Carter
SF Hill
PF Frye
C Love
Love will be dominating on the inside, spreading the floor so we can get Frye open looks and he will start knocking down his threes! The Suns will be AMAZING next year…
and what exactly do we do with RoLo and Gortat?
Love not liking Minn is just major speculation and media mongering.
NYC Suns Fan!!!
Restricted free agent
Minnesota can match whatever.
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Jan 11, 2011 1:16 AM MST up reply actions
Its way too early to make this call
the season is only 35 games old. there’s 47 games to go.
Nash’s “frustration has been building for 3 months” and all, but still the season is going to be played out and Nash is staying in Phoenix unless he demands a trade. And the trade partners are very, very limited.
Even the Knicks are not likely to trade for Nash midseason. Felton outplayed him bigtime, and Amare says the Knicks are NOT “suns east” because they “play defense”. No way the Knicks trade, say Felton and Gallinari, for Nash.
And frankly, I’m a little sick of Nash’s bitching and moaning. Sometimes you just deal with what you got and let your frustrations go. I mean, damn. He makes a lot of money to play basketball for a living, and he gets to play with a good friend (Hill). Why not just enjoy it? And if Nash could just decide to have fun again… guess what? OMG. He might just actually have some fun!
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 10, 2011 9:20 PM MST reply actions 2 recs
Because like Kobe Bryant he cares about winning. They worked very hard to get to where they got last season and it seems like all that work was for nothing as the FO couldn’t keep any continuity and they couldn’t even find a decent replacement for Amar’e. Too much change and not enough of it was good.
Don't trade Dudley!
Some people are just like slinkys, they're good for nothing
yet can still manage to put a smile on your face
when pushing them down a flight of stairs.
blah blah blah
lets all sit around a fire and sing kumbayah too, okay? boo hoo. That doesn’t preclude Nash from deciding – really deciding and not just saying it – that he gonna have fun no matter what.
And if he has fun, the rest of the team will have fun. And if the whole team has fun, they exceed the sum of their parts. And exceeding the sum of their parts = more wins.
I’m just saying that life is all about choice. No one MAKES you angry, or sad, or mad or happy. You make yourself that way by reacting to what they do.
but anyway, this is a basketball blog. I’ll jump on the bandwagon cuz I don’t want a 3 hour argument.
Fuck Sarver! Make him sell the team!
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
With all due respect Alex
Do you really believe Nash can just sit back and get smashed by the dregs of the league and not be pissed?
This guy is an undersized, project from Santa Clara that had to sink every ounce of effort and blood and heart and soul into his game just to stay in this league, let alone make himself into a 2-time MVP winner. You think he can sit back and take losing, letting the fans, the franchise, himself down?
And furthermore, think of how it looks to his friends and counterparts in the league to be on a downward sliding franchise at the tail end of his career…..And when he came so close to the finals last year and during the D’Antoni era?
Man I think you have Nash all wrong. This guy isn’t letting his frustrations go, no way in hell. And for that matter…..Any NBA player that thinks he should just “enjoy” being in the league and not have that killer instinct to win shouldn’t be playing at all….Yeah you heard me Vince.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 9:32 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
no no no, you misunderstand me
and that’s my fault because I’m not splainin myself very well.
I’m not saying that Nash should enjoy losing. I’m saying that allowing frustrations to overtake you is to less than you can be. Plus, it drags down all the other impressionable people who look up to you.
Conversely, if you rise above, emotionally, then you can bring people up with you and make them better. And then the winning will return.
competitiveness <> being pissed off all the time
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 10, 2011 9:38 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
But if he were smiling after losing to the Kings and barely beating the Cavs, I think we’d all be a smidge upset.
If you are talking emotional makeup, I think Nash has one of the best out there, not to mention his whole world view. He did say when he was extended it was more about his teammates, city, situation coach, etc than anything else.
With that being said, he still wants to win. And none of us can fault him for that. His reaction, in public, is right after a loss so it’s understandable that he is human and cannot mask every emotion.
Now, when he gets home to his million dollar house and lives his millionaire lifestyle, he’s probably feeling a bit better about things in general, meanwhile we are still lamenting the state of our favorite squad.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 9:45 PM MST up reply actions
nice
see, we’re still friends despite the disagreement. And together we make this blog better, even though we have different views. Kinda like a team…
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
it's funny but I think
Nash was pretty much saying this w/ this quote:
“Frustration’s been mounting for about three months. It’s hard, this is very difficult. Just trying to fight though it and stay positive every day is a challenge. Sometimes you have to take a step back to gain perspective but when you get out there, the fire burns and the frustration is there.”
He’s not made about it but he can’t help but get frustrated.
Raising Arizona Sports at SB Nation Arizona twitter: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Jan 10, 2011 11:27 PM MST up reply actions
Hmmmmmm....
And together we make this blog better,
Maybe, but if the right deal comes along, I know that Seth is not afraid to rebuild. Especially since you’re TEARING THIS TEAM APART!
Twitter: @MikeLisboa
by Mike Lisboa on Jan 10, 2011 11:50 PM MST up reply actions
Time to rebuild around Trevor
Maybe Evan Dunlap can use Seth over at the Magic blog.
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Jan 11, 2011 12:14 AM MST up reply actions
"And frankly, I’m a little sick of Nash’s bitching and moaning"
I’m sorry Alex, but that’s just the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard you say…and you generally have very sensible things to say…
by Fritzy on Jan 11, 2011 12:10 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
You don't say?
http://www.insidehoops.com/blog/?p=6759
Other people disagree with the fact you just stated.
When fictionally asked to comment on the state of the Phoenix Suns, GM Steve Kerr said, "Arizona."
by hookedonphoenix on Jan 10, 2011 9:21 PM MST reply actions
the Love thing earlier.
When fictionally asked to comment on the state of the Phoenix Suns, GM Steve Kerr said, "Arizona."
by hookedonphoenix on Jan 10, 2011 9:21 PM MST up reply actions
We are ONE piece away...
… from being able to compete. ONE.
We need a quality 4, and we need to move out some of the numbers from the 2/3 overload.
IMHO, this roster + a four is a winning roster:
Nash/Dragic
Dudley/Dragic/Childress
Hill/Childress
NEW GUY/Frye
Lopez/Gortat
IMHO Pietrus is not great – in fact, except for spot up threes, he is down right ordinary. VC is old, but a piece worth something on the market, and Frye needs to back up a true 4, not be our best inside defender against 4s.
We simply MUST trade for a 4. We have no choice. We have 2 first rounders next year, and we have a LOT of good pieces (VC and Peaches have expiring-ish deals, and if we wait until Feb 18, we can trade them with another player).
We need either a few more fours (Troy Murphy + Humphries from NJ works) or we need one quality four (like Josh Smith – who would be PERFECT in a suns uniform).
We can potentially trade 3 first rounders (2 next year + one in 3 years) for someone good like Smith, and I think we really need to do it – and soon!
Long time reader, first time commenter
I appreciate the article and I understand where people who want to trade Nash and Hill are coming from, but I don’t agree. It seems like a lot of people are vastly overestimating what we could get for Steve or Grant. Sure, on the Suns they are the heart and soul of the team, but elsewhere they are just a couple of aging, fringe all-stars. And no one is going to give away a marquee player for someone like that. Best case scenario would seem to be a couple of solid players and maybe a 2011 first-round pick.
Additionally, as many people have mentioned already, there aren’t too many contenders that really need Nash or Hill. People talk about how classy the two of them are, and how they deserve respect. Well, is it really showing them “respect” to trade them to a contender who sticks them on the bench? Again, Nash and Hill simply matter more in Phoenix, where people remember what they have accomplished for the Suns, than they would in another market.
And I’m not convinced that this season is such a lost cause. There is still plenty of time to turn this season around and make the playoffs. And even if we are a lottery team this year, there is still next year to consider. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Nash and Hill will both be with the team next year. This team has a lot of movable assets and they could conceivably sign or trade for a star to complement the two of them and allow them to make one final run at a championship.
This post will probably get me pegged as the sort of fan who cares more about Steve Nash than the Phoenix Suns as a team. But a fan has to care about the players who wear the jerseys, and both Grant and Steve have represented the Phoenix Suns with class and dignity for a number of years. If either of them comes forward and says he wants to be traded, than that’s a different issue. But so far, neither of them has, and trading them to a contender just because we want to rebuild isn’t showing them respect, but rather a lack thereof. Personally, I think that the value of watching two of the classiest, most talented players of their generation on our team in the twilight of their careers has more value (both financially and intrinsically) than a few picks and/or role players.
by Stevzie on Jan 10, 2011 9:28 PM MST reply actions 16 recs
Great post my friend
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
excellent First post...
And grammatically correct too…!
Rec the hell out of this one…!
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, I'm thankful!
I can’t answer this right now. I say give it a couple weeks. If we haven’t made much progress than I wouldn’t be against a full rebuild.
If we can get some wins and gain some confidence in these next couple weeks than what are our chances of the FO bringing in a good PF whether it be this trade deadline or the coming off-season?
Don't trade Dudley!
Some people are just like slinkys, they're good for nothing
yet can still manage to put a smile on your face
when pushing them down a flight of stairs.
Name a team that rebuilt quickly ever
Lets look at the history of “rebuilding”:
Barkley to Suns – Phoenix go to finals, Philly suck it up
Garnett and Ray Allen to Boston – Boston win a title, Sonics / OKC have a losing record, what they got (Jeff Green) wasn’t worth it, and Minny? SUCK CITY!
Rebuilding is really hard, and if we can;t stand a team @ .500, how we all gonna cope with three years of being Minnesota?
or portland, or OKC/Seattle even
those teams sacrificed for YEARS
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Rebuilding SUX
I’d rather hover like we are – as much as it ain’t great.
And besides, if we slip into the lottery now, we pick what, like 10? No franchise players at 10, or very little chance of one anyway!
Yo, those are two examples.
You forgot all the others ones. OKC has that guy, Kevin Durant. They’re a playoff team, after being in the lottery twice after the move.
The real question is, with Wes Johnson entering relevance, Kevin Love and Mike Beasley and Ricky Rubio and something got for Jonny Flynn, how are we going to cope with the 3 years of NOT being Minnesota?
Think of it this way. What’s the difference between the teams above and below the line?
Boston
San Antonio
Chicago
Dallas
Orlando
Lakers
Heat
OK City
New Orleans
Phoenix
Milwaukee
New York
Philadelphia
Golden State
Memphis
Washington
Clippers
Kings
Minnesota
New Jersey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Atlanta
Denver
Utah
Houston
Portland
Toronto
Indiana
Detroit
Cleveland
Charlotte
The teams above the line have a future. The teams below the line do not.
When fictionally asked to comment on the state of the Phoenix Suns, GM Steve Kerr said, "Arizona."
by hookedonphoenix on Jan 10, 2011 9:47 PM MST up reply actions
But not BECAUSE they rebuilt
The number two pick (i.e. Durant) was OKCs already. The “Blow up” achieved very little. San Antonio got Duncan by throwing a season when Robinson was injured etc etc. Blowups rarely work, and are slow and time consuming.
And as for Minnesota, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Minnesota_Timberwolves_seasons last FIVE seasons at or below .500. FIVE!!!! And people WANT to do that? Heaven help us!
So the question is, how to rebuild? I see three options:
1. Trade for a star – hard to do without assets, and a team usually only gets a second tier star. I personally would LOVE for us to trade for Josh Smith: RoLo + VC + 3 first rounders for Josh Smith + Whatever. That is about our best star value trade option – so realistically that makes this options a tad thin.
2. Sign a star – we need cap space, making the deals we signed last summer odd. http://hoopshype.com/salaries/phoenix.htm shows our best chance would be before the 2012/13 season – e.g. two years away. Assuming we take this option, then we should aim to clear space for one year, two years from now, like Miami did, and aim for two max players, which means NOT signing anyone to a deal longer than next season. And it means we can do whatever we like this year and next, so why not TRY to be competitive?
3. Blow it up – IMHO, this option is insane EXCEPT when you do it BEFORE the season starts. Our record is 15-20, so we’d need to go 7-40 from here on out to make it worth blowing up this team – and that is all-time lousy. even then, this simply isn’t a great draft to pick 1-4 in. http://www.draftexpress.com/ shows not a lot of can’t-miss prospects. Will the year after be any better? Who knows, but i do know blowing it up TODAY is not a wise move.
So, back to square one – what should we do? I say try to get a 4 and a back up point – http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2c7h4e7 is one way that gets us two PLUS a point (add two first rounders to denver to the trade, and if we wait until feb 18, throw in Dragic to NJ instead of the trade exception) OR http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=4jl6n2l or a similar trade (Wait again until feb 18 and trade RoLo with VC – which Atlanta might prefer – and take back bits to make it work).
Then, wait until 2012-13, when we can be big free agent players again. Nothing to gain by the blow up, so why bother?
Without VC's contract, we will be at about $30 mil in total contracts next year.
That’s with everyone returning except Grant Hill and Carter, who can be bought out for 4 mil – 3 of which we got in the trade. VC has a valuable 18 mil expiring contract, we have a surplus first round draft pick, we have Warrick, and we have a wing to trade, whether it be Pietrus or Childress. and for the right guy, we could give up a center in Rolo or Gortat. That’s better assets than Denver was reportedly getting for Anthony. I know everyone is excited about two draft picks, but we don’t need them both – we have to keep one. With the depth we have on long term contracts, they aren’t going to develop. With the way things look right now, our draft pick looks like a pretty good one, too, and should be lottery-protected. We still have Lawal, and the rights to D. Collins. We also have a 5.7 mil trade exception.
If you trade Nash and Hill before Feb 18, you can’t package VC or Pietrus with them. This would dilute our assets. If the FO has a plan, and I believe they do, the time to make a trade is at the deadline or later. Nash will be worth more next year as a final piece in a lockout shortened season, and an expiring $11 mil contract. While I think we should re-sign Grant, without him and Vince, we’re actually short a wing.
That’s enough assets to make a run at Love. Not that we would certainly get him, but we would at least get their attention. If not Love, then make a run at every desirable player in descending order – Horford, Marc Gasol, Josh Smith…. That would handle option 1. If that doesn’t work, option 2 is a chance to get someone like Kendrick Perkins, Glen Davis, or Marc Gasol. Trades can also be done during the free agency period.
It makes sense to wait.
"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
"In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip."
"$30 mil in total contracts next year" Based on what?
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/phoenix.htm shows the Salaries.
https://spreadsheets2.google.com/ccc?key=tuzzY_bh979ueZzJmueDJMQ&hl=en#gid=0 shows the salaries without the two “expirings”. AT BEST we are $45million – which is within ~$10 mil of the cap level and, get real, no F’n WAY Pietrus does not opt-in.
Happy to be corrected (as in F***ING ECSTATIC) but can you show me some evidence here?
Also, Love? Come on… let it go! MAYBE as a free agent. MAYBE. But he makes only $5 million – we simply CAN NOT get him in a trade. It ain’t happenning!
I think our best bet is to wait, AND to trade for contracts that expire AFTER next year, e.g. we have a two year run in us, where we can get no better any other way, so lets load up for the next two years, and have $45 million in cap space in 2012-13.
I was using this:
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/phoenix.htm. Didn’t realize it doesn’t automatically add in the team option – which is wierd- because they are cap holds until the option is waived.
Maybe we don’t get Love. But how much does it cost to ask? You don’t ask, you don’t get. They can extend him and then trade him, if they want. They might trade him if they’re getting about 8 players net, some of which could be very good. If not, nothing lost, but our FO should ask the question – on all those players. It is, after all, Minnesota. What if LA hadn’t asked for Pau Gasol? They gave up a lot less than we would be giving up to get him. They asked the question, and the answer was yes. How much would you have bet that that trade would go through?
So, maybe nothing works – then it’s option 2. But I think at the worst, we could get Josh Smith – if we were willing to pay the price – which would probably be VC+Gortat or Lopez, and maybe something else.
"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
"In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip."
Been fooled by that option thing myself :)
We MIGHT get Josh Smith, but I think we’d need to give Atlanta VC, Dragic and one of Lopez or Gortat AND 3 first rounders for Smith + scrubs.
Personally, I’d make that trade in a heartbeat, and think Atlanta would love to have a center and move Horford to the 4, and Dragic has potential.
Dunno, that is about the best i can see happening, and I really doubt it.
I think we’d need to give Atlanta VC, Dragic and one of Lopez or Gortat AND 3 first rounders for Smith + scrubs
I seriously, seriously doubt it would take that much. ATL has 2 PFs and no C and can’t get past the second round. They need to make a deal, just aren’t ready right now.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
And so do we...
What is harder to find: one of the multitude of 2/3s we have, or a freak athlete at 4 like Josh Smith? If I’m GM of Atlanta, I MIGHT consider trading Smith for that package, but why for less?
Taking back back VC and Lopez is a talent loss – a massive loss. And none of the three 1sts are likely to be the next Durant. Sure, the Salary relief next year helps somewhat, but come on, this year Atlanta is worse off, and they aren’t a heck of a lot better in the future either unless a pick works or two works out.
Still, 3 1sts next year is a start, and Lopez could help Horford move to 4, and as draft pick are cheap, and usually passable, I’d at least CONSIDER it. IMHO, though, it is a trade Phoenix should make, and one Atlanta is at best 50-50 on, and assumes they prefer salary relief to talent.
I just don't see Sarver doing this
from a business stand point. The NBA more than any other major league sport is a “star” league. Depending on the return, Sarver would most likely lose money at the arena.
If a trade would happen the Suns would most likely acquire draft picks as part of the package. I do not trust a Sarver led franchise to draft players.
So keep Nash and Hill.
I want Nash and Hill to retire as Suns
First of all, we cannot give up on Steve Nash. That dude has given us more blood, sweat, and tears (literally all 3) than any player has ever done for their team. You cant just throw a man out like that. Certainly not a this man.
Secondly, Grant Hill has even stated that he would retire if he is forced to go elsewhere. He sincerely wants to end his career a Sun.
As a franchise, we are blessed to have players of such high caliber and moral fiber on our team, and have them truly bleed for us. Steve Nash defines our true love. If you love it, let it go. If it comes back it was meant to be. We drafted him, sent him to Dallas, and he came back. He came back and gave our team the best basketball its ever witnessed.
by KnowGood on Jan 10, 2011 9:39 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
I don't think this team will turn it around this year
But I also don’t think trading Nash is the answer.
Listen folks, the bottom line is that basketball is a cyclical event. It recurs. Year. After year. After year. We are not a horrible team though we do play horribly a lot right now. But trading Nash is, IMO, not equal to a “blow up.” Its equal to “I’m an idiot and I don’t realize that one PG and a SF doesn’t make an entire team.” The bright side of this whole situation is that we have a ton of financial flexibility come summer time with two first round picks. Sure, the draft this year is not great but young talent is young talent.
With Carter’s contract off the books we can sign someone good to full the PF spot at a decent price. THIS DOES NOT MEAN WE HAVE TO TRADE NASH NOW. I am, frankly, flabbergasted by why a Nash trade is even necessary in your (pl.) opinions? Why is it? Is it a stylistic thing? We trade Nash and become a different team – is that what you (pl.) are advocating? Or is it that we are afraid, on some level, that if we don’t trade Nash and Hill to contenders and we keep losing they will begin to hate their time here and turn out like Vince in Toronto? If thats what you (pl.) think then we all need to take a step back.
Nash and Hill are quality guys who, yes, deserve rings. But they also love this state and PHX in general. This is their home and I, for one, won’t send them away until they ask for it.
We have a chance to turn it around next year and provide these guys with the run they are looking for. Many things will change this off-season with so many power moves being made. Its only a matter of time until sun starts shining on AZ again.
Reading is good...
by N8lol on Jan 10, 2011 9:40 PM MST reply actions 3 recs
Nash was frustrated in 09
by the moves made by kerr to get ‘defensive’. Then Kerr fixed it in 09-10.
Same can happen next year.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 10, 2011 9:42 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
What if there is no 2011-12 season?
Don't trade Dudley!
Some people are just like slinkys, they're good for nothing
yet can still manage to put a smile on your face
when pushing them down a flight of stairs.
Imagine there's no 2011-12 season
It’s easy if you try.
Imagine all the players,
Waiting, for a game
by motherwell on Jan 10, 2011 9:46 PM MST up reply actions 3 recs
?
Don't trade Dudley!
Some people are just like slinkys, they're good for nothing
yet can still manage to put a smile on your face
when pushing them down a flight of stairs.
This is a very real possibility and something the FO understands. Is it worth keeping Nash and bringing in a star PF when we likely won’t win it this year and than there may not even be a next season. What does that give us like 1 maybe 2 years to compete if Nash decides he wants to play longer? He’ll be 39-40 years old then. If this team can’t get any rythem going in the next couple weeks we should trade Nash and Hill.
Don't trade Dudley!
Some people are just like slinkys, they're good for nothing
yet can still manage to put a smile on your face
when pushing them down a flight of stairs.
thats why this "new PF"
has to have a future, not just a present. he must be young enough to be a quality player/allstar in 2 years.
tough trade to make
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Very tough decisions ahead. The FO will have their hands full and that isn’t very comforting as they don’t have any experience.
Where do you stand if the Suns can’t find any momentum in the next couple weeks? That’s what I’m giving them. If they don’t make much progress I’m all for pulling the plug. If they do make progress than the FO better get that “quality, young PF” hopefully by deadline because the fact there may not be a season next year scares the crap out of me and if that’s the case we might as well trade Nash this season while we still can. I don’t feel good about waiting till the off-season to get that PF and having Nash still on the team because of the no 2011-2012 possibility.
Don't trade Dudley!
Some people are just like slinkys, they're good for nothing
yet can still manage to put a smile on your face
when pushing them down a flight of stairs.
we'll cross that bridge when we get there
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 10, 2011 10:13 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Indeed.
In my opinion, we first need to talk about what moves we can begin to make in the offseason. What legit PFs will be available not by trade, but by sign. We don’t need anyone substantial like Amare, we just need a PF. Any good PF will do really (I do stress “good” – not Hakim Warrick good…). So, in that vein, I will start with a few names. Feel free to comment on them or correct me if I am wrong.
~Kedrick Perkins – technically listed as a center, but cmon, the guy can play PF. He has been doing it with Boston.
~Kenyon Martin – I know people will cry “thug” but this guy is flat solid on offense and unbelievable on defense. A front line of Hill, Gortat, and Martin would be a defensive powerhouse.
Sheldon Williams – Good, solid post player who doesn’t need the ball and plays hard. Another Duke product. Can’t go wrong.
Chris Wilcox – Haven’t seen him in a bit but the guy was a monster a few years back. Could still be again.
Marc Gasol – Again, a center, but a damn good big man that can play the 4 as well.
Zach Randolph – Chemistry issues? Maybe. But he has done well in Memphis (really well) and would do better in PHX.
Kris Humphries – Dude has been dynamite for NJ off the bench. See him a cheap David Lee. Great rebounder.
Thaddeus Young – Decent post man for the 6ers – in spite of Elton Brand!
Carl Landry – Maybe the best prospect out there.
That is just a few. Any of those guys would shore up our interior D and add good offense where we need it most.
Reading is good...
I'd love to have Randolph but he is 30 and has an uninsurable contract. Carl Landry is a crappy rebounder and only knows how to score. You could consider him a bit like a homeless amare.
Thad young is more of an Sf. Kris Humphries is intruiging, but, He isnt of the staring caliber. Martin is old, oft injured, and a legitimate animal. Shelden Williams is a draft bust. Wilcox is like a poor mans warrick (Very hard to do) And Kendrick perkins is not leaving beantown
Let Josh Childress play
Points conceded
Landry rebounds decently. Not that bad.
How is Randolph “uninsurable”?
Humphries does look nice – though he might go in the NJ/Melo trade
Martin still has juice. He only had one injury – granted it took a while to recover.
Williams averages 5 and 5 on just under 15 mins a game career…he isn’t an All-Star, but those are better than Robin’s numbers.
Perkins – yea…you’re right.
Reading is good...
Landry is a worse rebounder than Warrick. Literally. Did you know that?
Humphries is a career backup
Martin had only one surgery? nah, he’s had half-dozen. for sure.
Sheldon Williams is terrible. He will never be better.
I know what you’re trying to do, but those guys are not worth it.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 10, 2011 10:16 PM MST up reply actions
And I see what youre getting at...
But frankly to expect us to get some kind of star PF is ridiculous right now. There isn’t anyone out there who is going to replace Amare and NO ONE is going to be trading decent big men in the future. No one fits the mold that everyone here seems to want. Even a guy like Josh Smith is too small. The only two guys I can think of that would be perfect for our system are Horford and Giffin but there isn’t a way in hell we are getting those guys who its not worth the space contemplating it. Plenty of good teams get by with only a mediocre PF, someone solid who plays good defense and grabs some rebounds. But no, everyone here seems to want an Amare equivalent and if we cant get that to trade Nash. Those are not our only options people.
Reading is good...
Josh Smith is PERFECT
6’9", can finally shoot a three (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=2411 ~40% this year), can rebound, block shots and pass (4.8 assists per 40).He’d be PERFECT in getting us back to the SSOL suns.
We need a big, plain and simple, and Josh Smith is the best available – I say trade whatever it takes to get him!
Ditto
Whenever I start messing around with the trade machine, that’s the first move I try to setup.
The problem is finding a way to get him. Childress can’t be sent back to Atlanta right now and as much as I like him, I feel like he’d have to be one of the pieces moved.
by underxthebridge on Jan 11, 2011 8:25 AM MST up reply actions
LOL
Yes we are all well aware that Smith would be a nice addition to this team. The problem with him is, as others have noticed, that he is a bit small for a PF. Really he is a SF playing the PF because they want Horford at C. So while I would be ecstatic to have Smith on the team, he isn’t necessarily the saving grace of the Suns.
Reading is good...
I'd argue that Smith is definitely a PF.
And a poor choice for SF.
by waxmonkey on Jan 11, 2011 1:29 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
His interior offense and defense are excellent, while his outside offense and defense leave some to be desired.
Thats not a good reason.
If we judged people’s positions based on their ability to guard the paint verses the wings we would have some really nonsensical lineups…maybe THATS what Gentry is doing!
In all seriousness, though, its a good insight. But I would less at his defensive abilities, which can change, and more of his physical features and offensive abilities to measure his position. At 6’9 he is a tad undersized to be a really effective PF. The only reason he looks as good as he does at that position is because Horford is on the court with him. I would question his ability to play PF with Lopez on the court…
Dont get me wrong, I would absolutely love to have Smith on the team. Best option available to us, IMO, but I also don’t want to make a stupid move.
Reading is good...
Offense and defense inside and out is how you tell the difference between a PF and SF.
He is already an effective PF.
lol @ Kenyon Martin
Dude’s 33 and hasn’t played a full season his entire career. He’s played in 613 of a possible 902 regular season games. That’s roughly around 68%…not quite what I’d want to call our future starting PF.
Also, Humphries has career averages of 5.1 PPG, 4.0 RPG, 45.3% FG and .4 BLK. I’ll list someone else’s career averages (given, he’s been in the league much less time): 5.8 PPG, 3.4 RPG, 55.1% FG and .8 BLK. Yes, that person is Robin Lopez.
Bright Side of the Sun, for all things Phoenix Suns. Twitter: @iamtrevorpaxton
by Trevor Paxton on Jan 10, 2011 10:13 PM MST up reply actions
Carter is a team option for next year.
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=nba&id=531
What shall we say? Is this team going to win it all? Is this team going to make the playoffs? If we add Tyrus Thomas will it make a difference? To the latter I say, yes. It will make a difference. Tyrus Thomas is ready. If we add any 4 that will be the difference, then that 4 will be the difference. There are plenty of places to get said 4 from. Don’t know who will trade what, who will be best, but it’s definitely possible.
We don’t have to trade Nash, but we could. Nash is obviously frustrated, and if he wants to go he should be able. If we do trade Nash, though, it should be because he wants to go. We shouldn’t just trade Nash for no reason. We shouldn’t do it against his will either. If it were me I would rather Vince get back into form, Nash stay and we add somebody killing over the offseason. It’s likely we could get the 7th pick and pickup somebody killing that will stay with us for a long time. If Nash wants to go, he deserves to be sent somewhere where he can win.
When fictionally asked to comment on the state of the Phoenix Suns, GM Steve Kerr said, "Arizona."
by hookedonphoenix on Jan 10, 2011 10:01 PM MST up reply actions
You are right.
Like I said, if Nash wants to go, trade him. But my point is that we shouldn’t be talking about trading Nash. WHY THE HELL WOULD WE TRADE OUR STAR?! Stars don’t get traded, they get built around. When the Lakers crashed and burned 5 years back Kobe was calling for a trade and what did LA do? They built around him. You don’t trade your centerpiece. Nash is our centerpiece. If we want to continue to play the style of ball we are playing then you cannot trade Nash. If, however, you are willing to concede the point that the run-and-gun style is dead and that we need to move on to something else then a trading of Nash might be the logical option.
I personally don’t want to do that, but some might.
Reading is good...
by N8lol on Jan 10, 2011 10:08 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
But only...
$4 million is guaranteed, meaning you can waive him and only pay $4 mil.
By the way
if we do trade nash, get rid of carter to get a PF. who the hell are our guards going to be?
Dragic, dudz, pietrus?
NYC Suns Fan!!!
Can't wait to start Jared.
When fictionally asked to comment on the state of the Phoenix Suns, GM Steve Kerr said, "Arizona."
by hookedonphoenix on Jan 10, 2011 9:49 PM MST up reply actions
For reals?
I love Dudley, but if he’s our starting two guard, we’re not exactly moving in the right direction. Then again, he could be our version of Thabo Sefolosha…hm.
Bright Side of the Sun, for all things Phoenix Suns. Twitter: @iamtrevorpaxton
by Trevor Paxton on Jan 10, 2011 10:16 PM MST up reply actions
Now if only we could find that Kevin Durant
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Jan 11, 2011 1:19 AM MST up reply actions
I just wanna say this- No player is willing to sign here in the valley of the sun. There simply are much better teams out there that are also willing to give better (for the players) contracts.
Losing games to the clippers and Kings certainly do not help our cause. No gm right now is stupid enough to trade a star player for jared dudley, robin lopez, or any of the other so called moveable assets. Players are not considered moveable when there is no chance in hell that a team would accept a trade for them in exchange for their star player. Regardless, I do not think it matters anymore. Trading Nash and Hill really wont be getting us anywhere, but I say we get what we can for them now before they retire-this team is certainly not going anywhere and the prospect of having some random young star nba player come here are incredibly low. Nash and Hill deserve championships but if we can get a nice package out of it, then I say we should. This is a team matter, and it doesnt help our cause when we are losing give me games with one of the top 5 point guards of all time steering the ship
Let Josh Childress play
might as well fold up the tents and go home
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 10, 2011 10:03 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
We can force somebody to play here.
We can draft somebody, develop somebody, trade for somebody. Basketball players do have contracts to play with the team to which they are assigned. They’re contracts, just like any other contract.
When fictionally asked to comment on the state of the Phoenix Suns, GM Steve Kerr said, "Arizona."
by hookedonphoenix on Jan 10, 2011 10:05 PM MST up reply actions
They can also force their way out of town.
Vince Carter knows a little something about that.
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Jan 11, 2011 1:20 AM MST up reply actions
That’s not true, Warrick wanted to play here, lol.
Don't trade Dudley!
Some people are just like slinkys, they're good for nothing
yet can still manage to put a smile on your face
when pushing them down a flight of stairs.
lots and lots of players
want to play in Phoenix. Let’s not kid ourselves into thinking we’re minnesota.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 10, 2011 10:17 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
See I am not sure you are right about this.
Sure, lots of marginal players (like Warrick) want to play here to revitalize their careers but what stars want to play here? No one wants to come to PHX. Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont see anyone knocking the door down like they were in 04-07.
Reading is good...
That's not really how the NBA works
When you’re signing away a free agent how good the team is really doesn’t matter much.
by hcblankscreen on Jan 10, 2011 10:18 PM MST up reply actions
agreed, hank....$$$$$ talks
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 10:19 PM MST up reply actions
Great work, Wil. Super rec'd.
I’m not sure I 100% agree with you, but you stated your case well and showed a lot of courage posting this because many here will see you as a heretic for suggesting it. Is now the time to trade Nash and Hill? If we can find the right deal. But now is definitely the time to start aggressively shopping them.
I’ve been a sports fan since I was a child, so for around 30 years. In that time, I’ve seen my teams have their ups and downs, and I’ve become adept at seeing when teams are starting that toboggan ride down the steep slope to the valley of crappiness. This Suns team shows all the signs of being on that ride.
Look at all the different kinds of losses we’ve had. They’ve lost to good teams, bad teams, mediocre teams. They’ve lost close games and blowouts. Why have they lost? Pick the reason: defense, rebounding, continuity, inability to close games out. Players have changed, they’ve attempted to change styles and the losses still come.
And, the telltale sign that there is no hope for significant improvement? It has become clear that they have no answers. Listen to Gentry, Nash, Hill, Dudley, all of them. Look at the quotes Seth posted earlier today. It is not lack of effort or lack of focus on shoring up weaknesses. They simply don’t have any solutions. There are no other buttons to push.
Attempts to fix a problem open new problems. Lack of size is a problem? Trade for size. Well, damn, look what we had to give up to do that. Defense is a problem? Focus so much on defense that the offense, the Suns strength throughout the Nash years, can’t be relied upon. We need continuity? OK, but when the team is built on a shaky foundation, you want to stick with what we have and expect it to get better?
The decline down the hill starts a little slowly, but it gains speed quickly. This Suns team isn’t about to turn things around, they’re about to decline more quickly.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
~Phillip K. Dick
by East Bay Ray on Jan 10, 2011 10:09 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
well said EBR
For the record I hope I am wrong…I’d love to see the Suns turn it around and make a run…I’ve lived in AZ 33 years and lived and died with this franchise…But as you said, no one has any answers. No one. 12 different starting lineups, losses to everyone from Lakers to 76ers to Clips. I think it’s time to look to the future. But I won’t stop rooting for this squad.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 10:17 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah, I'll always root for them, and I'll keep watching whoever suits up for us.
It’s just hard to see this turning around. BTW, my recent experience following teams taking that unhappy toboggan ride: 2010 Seattle Mariners, 2010 Dallas Cowboys. I really wish I wasn’t such a subject matter expert :-)
Of all the moments this season that could have raised red flags, I look back to one that most probably didn’t see the way that I did: when the Heat beat us on December 23. Many here saw it that the Suns acquitted themselves well by hanging in with the mighty Heat. I saw it that the Heat didn’t take us the least bit seriously. They sat Wade and generally overlooked the Suns as they looked ahead to their game against the Lakers on Christmas. They knew they could sit an all-star, come into our house and punk us anyway. And they did.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
~Phillip K. Dick
by East Bay Ray on Jan 10, 2011 10:31 PM MST up reply actions
for me
it was blowing a near perfect night from nash on a loss to sactown. but I still disagree with the trade nash and hill Idea.
and I agree with you EBR, man move by Wil to post this, and in a manner fitting of the gravity of the situation.
"Kobe doing work
Two-four on my shirt
He the greatest on the court"
Usually when I try to inject
gravity into brevity I meet opposition… Am I lacking in eloquence or insight?
I think Wil is asking the right questions, but we are still left with consternarion and ambiguity. Is the fact that we can engage in such a spirited discussion over the direction of the team a tribute to the artifice of the management’s machinations or an indictment over their lack thereof.
Never confuse activity with achievement.
by Jim Coughenour on Jan 11, 2011 12:23 AM MST up reply actions
The decision to rebuild
was made when they decided not to guarantee Amare’s deal. Letting a 28 year old all-nba caliber player depart doesn’t speak volumes to the effect of winning now.
The Suns know that Nash and Hill are more closely linked to the team’s past than its future. As inimitable and unique of talents and individuals as Steve and Grant are, they are not going to educe exceptional
assets.
The Suns will probably be best served to act with great caution right now. Jeopardizing future seasons for 5 wins this year would be a mistake. An intransigent stance towards dealing fan favorites could also compromise the future.
The Suns need to be open minded to moving forward in either direction based on the circumstances that present themselves. Should they trade Nash? Maybe… The future is still an unkown commodity, but luck favors the prepared.
I hope the Suns can capitalize on the opportunities presented to them in the next year plus. This is an extremely dynamic period in the franchise.
Never confuse activity with achievement.
by Jim Coughenour on Jan 11, 2011 12:09 AM MST up reply actions
Jim
we’re not on the same page here (and rarely are) but your brand of measured debate is greatly appreciated. especially now.
"Kobe doing work
Two-four on my shirt
He the greatest on the court"
Agreed.
Also, 2NASHTY, love what you said about absolutism Saturday with regards to the tragedy in Tucson.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
~Phillip K. Dick
by East Bay Ray on Jan 11, 2011 12:34 AM MST up reply actions
It's not in the teams interest to trade Nash/Hill
They couldn’t find a better pair of veterans to mentor the new players. But, depending on what Nash/Hill want out of their careers, at their age it’s in their best interest to be moved to a better team. They’re not expensive for what they provide. It’s just sad because it’s an end of some of the most exciting basketball the league has ever seen.
by Humongous on Jan 10, 2011 10:13 PM MST reply actions 2 recs
oh and...Great discussion BSOS...it's good to see there are more believers than not.
Blogging Suns Basketball. Twitter: @willcantrellphx
by Wil Cantrell on Jan 10, 2011 10:18 PM MST up reply actions
Alright, I’ve thought about it some more. I’m going to give this team a week or two, but I am leaning towards a rebuild. However, I feel like the FO needs to put Nash and Hill regardless of the team’s play on the trading block right now and just listen to offers like we did with Amar’e last season.
Don't trade Dudley!
Some people are just like slinkys, they're good for nothing
yet can still manage to put a smile on your face
when pushing them down a flight of stairs.
by Beavis 25 on Jan 10, 2011 10:22 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
the thing is
we don’t have to make a decision tonight. Or rather, the Suns don’t.
let the team play through early Feb (3 weeks). Their play will speak for itself.
The reason we’re all waffling is because it IS too early.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 10, 2011 10:26 PM MST up reply actions
yes, but is there anything wrong with putting Nash and Hill on the trading block and just listening to offers? It doesn’t mean we still have to trade them.
Don't trade Dudley!
Some people are just like slinkys, they're good for nothing
yet can still manage to put a smile on your face
when pushing them down a flight of stairs.
yes
because that would completely destroy the current season. You think its bad now? How about when the only remaining team leaders are put on the trade block for 6 weeks? At least when Amare was put there, the Suns still had leaders staying (Nash and Hill).
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 11, 2011 7:02 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
THAT'S IT! I'VE HAD IT!
We are going host a coup of the FO. We must. Majority vote shall decide personnel decisions.
ARE YOU WITH ME?
EH? (reference to the Canadiense of Steve Nash).
When fictionally asked to comment on the state of the Phoenix Suns, GM Steve Kerr said, "Arizona."
by hookedonphoenix on Jan 10, 2011 10:30 PM MST reply actions
Sort of related in that it's trade talk
Denver is telling NJ the trade is off unless they keep the discussion a little more private. They also want to move Al Harrington for additional cap relief. Can the Suns sneak in on this as a dark horse 4th party to snag Al? We have too few 4s and too many wings, so…
Here’s one idea.
Alternatively you could send Pietrus in place of Childress.
Here’s another.
by underxthebridge on Jan 10, 2011 10:49 PM MST reply actions
Also
Obviously this wouldn’t be a “rebuilding” move.
by underxthebridge on Jan 10, 2011 10:51 PM MST up reply actions
Although, I have interest in Greg Monroe, I wouldn’t do that deal. We’d still have a log-jam because Al would need to get his minutes. It’s not worth it.
Our FO can do better.
Don't trade Dudley!
Some people are just like slinkys, they're good for nothing
yet can still manage to put a smile on your face
when pushing them down a flight of stairs.
No doubt
Nash/Dragic
Carter/Pietrus
Hill/Dudley
Harrington/Frye/Munroe/Warrick
Lopez/Gortat
Would still need to try and move Carter and/or Pietrus and/or Warrick to shore things up.
by underxthebridge on Jan 10, 2011 11:01 PM MST up reply actions
The flip side to this?
Attempting the rebuild by trying to lure some of the first round picks floating around amongst these teams. This would completely depend on what picks you could end up with. Short term you’d end up with Billups as more of a rental for the remainder of the year.
by underxthebridge on Jan 10, 2011 11:03 PM MST up reply actions
And just to throw in Hill
To give him a shot and all that jazz. I hate this one the most.
by underxthebridge on Jan 10, 2011 11:07 PM MST up reply actions
God No...
Not harrington! He is exactly what we DO NO need – another can’t rebound 4. ANYTHING but Harrington!
by motherwell on Jan 10, 2011 11:22 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
uh no
Harrington is a worse rebounder than Warrick and has a richer, longer deal than Chill
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Not sure where you got your numbers
Harrington and Childress are both owed ~33.5/5 years, with Josh’s 5th year being a player option.
Harrington averages 1.5 more rpg than Warrick over his career. That number is down to .8 this year, but you’re still talking about one more board per game than Hakim.
Also, 82 games has Harrington’s Win% at 62.1 while Warrick’s is at 41.4. So you’re 20% more likely to win with Al on the court than Hakim.
Lastly, Greg Monroe.
by underxthebridge on Jan 11, 2011 7:42 AM MST up reply actions
harrington’s rebound rate (rebound per opportunity) is lower than Warrick’s. Harrington just plays more minutes, so he gets more per game.
He’s a better player than Warrick, but he’s older and can’t finish on a p-n-r. He’s strictly a chucker who’s flamed out on both the Warriors and Knicks.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Although, I have interest in Greg Monroe, I wouldn’t do that deal. We’d still have a log-jam because Al would need to get his minutes. It’s not worth it.
Our FO can do better.
Don't trade Dudley!
Some people are just like slinkys, they're good for nothing
yet can still manage to put a smile on your face
when pushing them down a flight of stairs.
I would not trade both Nash and Grant Hill. Look at team like Minnesota, Sacramento who have young teams but no one to mentor the young players or calm them when they are down in a game.
Minnesota has so many good players but no veteran. With the hustle shown by Grant Hill and his history plus his minimum contract no better person than Grant Hill to be that mentor for the next year or two.
by az_kevin on Jan 10, 2011 11:52 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
Realistically I think the Suns have two more years of which they can be competitive in
They have a lot of meh players who just aren’t getting it done. The only chance of them trading for an above average big man is by taking a gamble. a gamble I think worth taking is on Elton Brand.
Philly receives Hakim Warrick, Josh Childress, Robin Lopez, and trade exceptions
Phoenix receives Elton Brand and a top 10 protected first round pick.
I think this would be a smart move because Warrick and Childress really aren’t doing anything right now anyways and there contracts together are horrible for the Suns. Robin Lopez isn’t really necessary anymore with Channing Frye and Gortat on the team. Elton Brand is a risk because though he is very talented, he is injury prone. I think this is a worthwhile risk though because he seems to have returned to form and PHX has the best training staff in the NBA.
"You need to get real!"
Bogus.
Explain why the Suns only have two more competitive years? I don’t get that at all…
Reading is good...
I mean years before a rebuild is completely necessary
Nash will still be playing great. He’s a player I feel that will be good even in his late thirties. As long as Nash stays they will have their leader. They can still build around him and a player. This has been a dismal year, but the roster has experienced so much change. Also they have lost arguably the best scoring big man in the league.
It looks like the Suns are going to get a top 10 draft pick and they will have money to spend. If they can get one decent big, the team has potential. If they sign a big name center this offseason, they can easily trade Gortat and or Robin Lopez and get back a lot and fill holes given the lack of good centers in the league. If they can just get 1 or 2 good players to pair with Nash thats all they need.
"You need to get real!"
Everybody calm down - especially you, Wil!
There are plenty of good pieces on our Suns’ roster right now.
Defense and rebounding can be improved with trust and comraderie.
We must stop booing and think about any other profession where a friend has a bad spell – get behind our guys. True, some things seem unfixable, and midseason turnarounds are rare. But how about we play decent ball, scratch back to .500 by the end of the month, and take ’er from there, okay?
Just start Duds with Steve, Grant, Frye and Fropez and let it ride. Make Carter earn some time.
Oh, and Steve, start fighting over picks instead of going under them!
Frye (of Victoria, Canada) - Steve Nash's hometown folks admire his skills, his leadership and his unabashed intelligent humour.
by Frye (of Victoria, Canada) on Jan 11, 2011 12:17 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
Very honest post Wil
Here’s the thing for me. I absolutely believe that Steve and Nash deserve the opportunity to be on a contending team…IF they want to.
We all know that basketball is a business and it is cutthroat in nature…and usually such considerations for a player’s wishes simply cannot be obliged on that basis alone. But I do see what Nash and Hill have done for this team, our organization, and the community as a whole as something that transcends the usual business model. So I would hope they would make an exception in this instance.
Would I trade Nash and Hill to get young players with potential and draft picks without their blessing? Absolutely not. Both of these players have been nothing but the classiest, most enjoyable ambassadors for the sport during their time here.
However, I see nothing wrong with our FO asking them in private if they would rather remain on the team with the slight chance they could help bring this franchise back to where it was, or if they would rather explore the option of being traded to another team without so many obstacles in it’s path, in hopes of finally reaching the promised land before they retire.
This way, if they did actually want to be moved to a team, we could identify which organizations they would be ok with being traded to and look for any reciprocal interest from them; to see if we could make it work to the benefit of all parties involved.
On the other hand, maybe they truly are content riding off into the sunset in the comfortable secure environment that is the Suns, complete with their status as local heroes. Perhaps they like Phoenix and the ability of our training staff to keep them perpetually young for an eternity. If so, then I think we should let them remain on the team as long as they wish, until their contract expires, or until they retire…I think we owe them that much.
At any rate, I believe that our management should begin an honest and open dialogue with both Nash and Hill to find out what they would like. Then we would at least know where they stand and could plan for the future knowing what our options are.
by 7footer on Jan 11, 2011 2:03 AM MST reply actions 5 recs
How about this idea
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=4wj6vgk
http://phxsunsbr.blogspot.com/
The scourge of the trade machine...
It’s a hex on our Blog…
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, I'm thankful!
Disagree
Would rather see people trying to come up with solutions instead of chirping from the peanut gallery.
It’s not hard to say “Trade Nash/Hill and start rebuilding.” That actually takes zero effort. And it has been beaten to death at this point. To actually attempt at piecing together potential trades takes time and thought.
And if nothing else, the inability to come up with a viable trade lends itself to the argument to keep Nash and Hill.
by underxthebridge on Jan 11, 2011 7:37 AM MST up reply actions 2 recs
this I agree with 100%
the inability to come up with a viable trade lends itself to the argument to keep Nash and Hill
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 11, 2011 8:12 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
this I disagree with 100%
Would rather see people trying to come up with solutions instead of chirping from the peanut gallery.
Spamming ridiculous trades that don’t make us any better is, in my estimation, just as bad as what you call “chirping” (though I am not sure what that refers to really…). Why, you say? Because all its does it allow people to dream of things that aren’t going to happen instead of dealing with the situation that they have right now. I am all for good trade talk…but it needs to be GOOD trade talk.
The problem I see is that there are really not viable trades at this point that do what everyone who wants to trade Hill and Nash THINKS they will do – i.e. get us quality youth/future all-star. Get with it people, its not happening. There aren’t that many future all-stars out there to begin with and no team is going to trade for Nash to get one.
And, again, why the HELL would we trade the cheapest all-star in the league anyway?! If we can only get potential and draft picks for STEVE effing NASH then we shouldn’t trade him.
I say again, “blow up” does not equal trading Nash.
Reading is good...
by N8lol on Jan 11, 2011 1:16 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Here's the thing
The problem I see is that there are really not viable trades at this point that do what everyone who wants to trade Hill and Nash THINKS they will do – i.e. get us quality youth/future all-star. Get with it people, its not happening. There aren’t that many future all-stars out there to begin with and no team is going to trade for Nash to get one.
You’re essentially saying what I’ve been contending the entire time. The irony is you missed the crux of the point, which Alex pointed out right above you.
The biggest difference is I would rather have asinine trades posted instead of the endless stream of “trade them!!!!!!!!!!1” comments without any actual trade ideas.
by underxthebridge on Jan 11, 2011 9:15 PM MST up reply actions
Great post Will..
I don’t necessarily agree, but I think you have said what a lot of fans wanted to say here on BSOTS, but were afraid. Personally, I think Sarver is running metrices right now to find out what impact the loss of these two would have on the financial outlay of the orgnaization. Sarver, is motivated by two things….Winning and money…These are interchangeable in order depending on the situation, but they must compliment each other and through the other out of balance…..
Sentiment has nothing to do with this scenario. If a ball-busting offer comes down the pike, and Sarver believes it helps the Suns and the loss of Nash/Hill isn’t a drain financially or on the Suns public relations, then it happens.
Personally, I feel they are going to come to the conclusion, that they will not get enough trade value in return to warrant the financial hit and negative public relations they get from trading these two…
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, I'm thankful!
by Daryl Ray on Jan 11, 2011 6:23 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
An example of what to definitely avoid:
The Detroit Pistons
Dumars – a highly respected GM to this point – saw that his team was fading. 6 straight ECFs, but not enough to get over the hump. He wanted to speed up redbuilding, so he traded his best asset (Chauncey Billups) for Allen Iverson’s expiring contract and decided to tank the season to rebuild. High-ish pick and boatloads of cash to spend on free agents.
What did he get?
Austin Daye (picked right before or after Lopez I think), Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva (#2 and #3 on the “market” after Hedo that summer) and the distinction of being one of the worst teams in the NBA.
You don’t trade Nash unless its a doozy of a player coming back, or you risk oblivion.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 11, 2011 7:14 AM MST reply actions 2 recs
We are already re-building
If we are not re-building and getting ready for the lockout, why let Stat go? Why let J-Rich go?
There are very few franchise players in the league, and a few more starting players which are good enough to start on any team. And a ton of role players.
Banker Bob doesn’t have the cash to stay in this game. He is doing everything to put cash in his pocket, and as far as I can tell has been since he got the team. They would already have traded Nash if they had any takers.
His list of errors is getting to be legendary:
Joe Johnson
Rajon Rondo
Stat
J-Rich
Help anyone, Are there more?
:-(
This last trade wasn't a mistake
It turned a mediocre team into a lottery team, sure. Is that really a bad thing?
It also unloaded Hedo’s albatross contract, and exchanged an asset that wasn’t going to work out for us (Clark), for one that might (1st rd draft pick).
I know, watching Vince makes it seem like a mistake, but really, it’s not such a bad deal.
Trade Warrick!!!
trading carter for a PF would help
"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
im gonna be all up on you like a spider monkey!
i can just see delonte west winning a game of poker against lebron, throwing down the cards he yells, "who's your daddy!"...."oh, sorry man"
by remembering9ergods on Jan 11, 2011 11:06 AM MST reply actions
Only just got to read the column Wil..
…good work and I agree whole heartedly – trade Steve.
I’d rather we all just admit that this team is terrible for many different reasons and that being out of the playoff picture going into the new year is never a good position.
I don’t want to see Steve made to see out his contract while the team gets worse/stays as bad as it currently is.
It will be a sad, sad day when Steve leaves but he deserves better and we want better.
Grant Hill is my hero.
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