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The need for a low post PF is...

irrelevant with the addition of Gortat and the improved play of Channing Frye.  I see all the time on the fan posts that fans left and right believe we need a low post PF on the offensive end, but the thing I think is most forgotten is that that's not the Sun's Offensive system.  The Sun's offensive system is about creating space for the following:

Option 1: PnR with the C where the C finishes

Option 1b: PnR with the C where the PG dishes to a back cutting SF breaking from the opposite corner (SG crashes the board

Option 1c: PnR with the C where the PG beats the defense for a layup

Option 1d: PnR with the C where the PG drives and dishes to the near corner SG for a 3 after the help defense collapses on the PG (opposite side SF crashes the board)

Option 2: PnR with the PF where the PG dishes to the near corner SG, who swings the ball back to the rotating PF for a 3 or mid-range 2 from the elbow (SF crashes the board)

Option 3: Fastbreak (which has nothing to do with anyones positions specifically)

Ok, so if you're looking at the Sun's halfcourt set, the PG is at mid court, the SG is in the rightside corner, the SF is at the leftside corner inside the arc, the C is on the rightside block and the PF is at the left elbow extended.  The PF moves out beyond the arc, the C sets a right side screen to setup the left side secondary screen which runs the real PnR.  That is the basic Sun's offensive game plan.

The reason this game plan is so effective and works for only the Suns is because of Steve Nash.  Plain and simple.  Without Steve Nash's vision and playmaking ability (and his mentorship of Dragic) this simplistic offensive set is IMPOSSIBLE to run in the NBA (I don't think Chris Paul or Derron Williams could run it without Nash's mentorship for an extended period of time).  Here's what the offensive system relies upon:

1.  Vision and playmaking from the PG that allows for passes made to the rolling player to be "amazing" as well as reading the defense to see where the defense collapses and hits the player open in the spread floor.

2.  SG and SF that can collapse on the weakside board, recognizing that the PF and C are often out of the middle due to the rotation of the offense based on where the ball goes from the PG after the PnR.

3. PF who can shoot from the outside (not meaning 3s, but mid to long jumpers) as well as work a midrange PnR, flash the mid-key spot up, reverse the ball to the weakside efficiently

4. C that runs an effective PnR, has quickness from the top of the arc to the rim, moves out of the key to draw large defenders away when the PG/SG are driving, soft hands for out-of-nowhere passes, can pass to open shooters on the outside

That in a nutshell is the Suns offensive system.  It does not, I repeat, DOES NOT rely on a low post PF.  Adding one would clog the lane with defenders.

I understand everyones desire for the next Al Horford, but in reality, we need the next Tim Duncan.  Al Horford does not want to be a C.  He wants to be a PF.  Tim Duncan could care less what his role is and on defense is going to guard the better of the 4 or 5 from the other team.  Al Horford can't play the PF position in the Sun's system because he's a low post scorer most of the time.  Tim Duncan is a C.  A guy like him, could flourish in our system because he's a PnR dream.  ***note: this is not advocating we try to get TD, just develop a guy like him, oh wait, that's what Robin Lopez and Marcin Gortat are doing***  Amare worked so well in this system because he could be the PnR C that the Sun's needed.  Then they spread the floor with everyone else to create the space in the middle so that Amare was isolated on the other teams C who was traditionally slower than Amare.  But bringing in Shaq didn't work because at that age, Shaq wasn't fast enough to run the PnR effectively and Amare couldn't hit the long-range jumper as well yet so if you ran a PnR with Amare while Shaq was asked to spread the floor, the defender on Shaq would back-off and provide help defense on the cutters and rollers.

So what does this mean for the Suns offense?

1.  We have 2 decent shooting Cs that for the most part, can beat an opposing C to the rim on the roll.  They just need to play with Nash a bit more to understand his reads and learn to properly catch his passes in movement.

2.  We have Nash and Nash's understudy.  We're set at PG.

3.  We have SGs and SFs who can cut to the hoop on the backside, sit in the corner, finish at the rim (except for Dudley), don't need the ball to create for themselves (Carter is learning this just like Richardson learned that Nash will create a whole lot more for him than if Carter was to try to create on his own), hit open jumpers, crash weakside boards, pass efficiently, and run the fastbreak with excellence.

4. We have 2 PFs...who can spread the floor, hit open mid to long-range jumpers, act as a secondary PnR partner, skip pass to weakside shooter/cutter, provide 'safety' position on defense.  Frye took time to develop for this role.  Now he's the starter and rightfully so.  He's earned it.  The biggest need right now is for the same thing in the backup role.  Warrick can be that guy.  He's as raw as Frye was 1.5 years ago when he first signed with us.  He needs to pickup his shooting from the outside and not rely on being at the rim the whole time.  He needs to work on his ability to set off ball picks and being a threat outside without the ball.  He needs to develop his hands for the passing required.  He also needs to improve his ability to read the play and see if he needs to get back early for defense.

If Warrick ends up not being the guy for this role, then guys that could play the type of PF role that the Suns utilize on offense would be Troy Murphy, Danny Granger, Carmelo Anthony, Luol Deng, Boris Diaw, Al Harrington, Andrei Kirilenko, Paul Millsap, Andres Nocioni, Dirk Nowitzski, Lamar Odom, Tayshaun Prince, Vladamir Radmonovic, Josh Smith, Al Thorton, etc.  I'm not saying we need one of these guys, these are just examples of the TYPE of player the Suns would use at PF.

ON THE DEFENSIVE SIDE

So we just proved why a low post offensive PF is irrelevant in the Suns system.  On the defensive side, its an entirely different story, because on defense, you don't dictate where your players play defense, the other team does.  So I'd have to recommend you go look at Alex Laugan's recent post about the Suns improved defense.  It shows that Frye HAS stepped up on the defensive end as has Warrick.  They would be the first to tell you there's still a lot of room for improvement.

The other thing to note about the Suns defensive system is team rebounding.  The Suns run a team rebound scheme that has post players locking up their opposing counter parts and the wings crashing the board and your PG getting ready for the outlet pass.  This scheme prevents opponents 4s and 5s from getting down the court too quickly and into the lane so that the Suns front court players can fast break more effectively.  Now I recognize that there's a huge discrepancy between the amount of rebounds Lopez gets and the amount Gortat gets.  First off, I'd say playing time has a huge chunk of that.  Robin starts and has to go against the #1 C of the other team.  Generally, the other teams top rebounder.  While Gortat comes in and is often against the #2 C.  Gortat also had 4+ years of battling Dwight Howard in practice.  I can imagine he learned an awful lot in those 4 years about how to rebound.  So while the amount of rebounds that each of them is getting has a big gap, I believe that if I could check WHO they're rebounding against, Lopez might be a bit closer to Gortat if he went against the #2 C more often.

 So let's give Warrick some time to develop his offensive game in our system and have a little faith that, as proven by stats, we are getting better on the defensive end of the court.

Comment 28 comments  |  5 recs  | 

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Nice piece of work, Styks. Recc'ed.

"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
"In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip."

by haremoor on Jan 24, 2011 1:46 PM MST reply actions  

+1

"He is probably one of the hardest players I’ve played against since I’ve been in this league."
- Gilbert Arenas

"They have a lot of individual talent, but Steve Nash is the motor that makes the car run."
- Jermaine O'Neal

"He makes the game very easy for his teammates... He’s a true point guard."
- Tim Duncan

by The Solution on Jan 24, 2011 1:47 PM MST up reply actions  

Rec'd for the breakdown of the Suns offense

I disagree with the “Shaq didn’t work” on offense. It did.

It was the defense that was horrible with Shaq relying on Nash to guard the P’n’R well, and Amare to cover their defensive ineptitudes. That was a recipe for failure.

Trade Warrick!!!

by jc79 on Jan 24, 2011 3:24 PM MST reply actions  

eh

I disagree. I really think the Suns struggled more on the offensive end with Shaq because he clogged the lane. He and Amare couldn’t co-exist in the middle of the court in the PnR system. It only left 2 out on the wings and often 3 (Shaq, Amare, and Nash when he would drive) down low which allowed other teams to fastbreak the Suns a lot more than normal. On defense, they were fine if they had time to get everyone back. But as most know, if the Suns offense isn’t clicking, they have a hard time getting everyone back on defense quick enough to actually set it up. Live by the 7 seconds, die by the 7 seconds.

by styks on Jan 24, 2011 4:20 PM MST up reply actions  

Actually, I agree with you for a different reason

It wasn’t the Amare/Shaq combination that didn’t work, it was the Nash/Shaq combo that didn’t work. First, Shaq is not a great pick and roll option at this point in his career, as he is too slow, has poor handles and cannot make great adjustments with his body on the way to the rim. Additionally, because Shaq cannot shoot outside of 3 feet with any accuracy, and the primary PNR combo was Amare and Nash, Shaq’s defender collapsed into the paint [adding an “extra” defender to clog the lane. Because of this, Nash too often was cut off in the lane and was not free to roam and probe. This offense is predicated on having the three other players spreading the defense and forcing the opponent to pick their poison – stopping Nash to Amare, or allowing Nash to score or find guys for threes.

I also think they struggled equally defensively because of Shaq [and subsequently Lopez]. He is far too slow to hedge on PNR defense, and usually ended up getting into the guards way when the guard was trying to get through. Due to our inability to rotate correctly [as we still have now], we often would get killed by pick and roll play. Our defensive problems have less to do with our guards and more to do with our bigs inability to flash and recover, in combination with the rest of the guys rotating to cover. The reason Lou Amundson was so effective on defense was due to the fact that he was mobile enough to flash hard while keeping within distance of recovering on his man, but also hustling to rotate to the proper guy if someone else rotated over to help. Our current big men flash relatively poorly, and then are simply lost after that.

by coachj14 on Jan 27, 2011 5:10 PM MST up reply actions  

+1

actually you said very much the same of what I was saying (in your 1st paragraph)

As for your second paragraph, it’s an intriguing analysis that I would have to look into. No reason to disagree.

by styks on Jan 27, 2011 10:32 PM MST up reply actions  

Stats say that the

Nash/Stat/Shaq offense under Gentry produced the greatest number of points per possession of any team in the NBA. Ever. Of course, the sample size isn’t very big, but, still…

Under Porter, it wasn’t so good. But I blame that on Porter.

Trade Warrick!!!

by jc79 on Jan 27, 2011 5:21 PM MST up reply actions  

Great post! One of the better and complete pieces of analysis.

I don’t think giving Warrick any time will help. Yes, the Suns need a finisher, and somebody who can get to the line consistently and get opposing bigs in foul trouble. So far, Warrick has been the best at that. In the beginning of the season, Hak was “Amar’e lite.” When is the last time he deserved that comparison?

Hakim if anything, is Amar’e Diet: he’s sacchrine, but in no way Equal. Plus, he is a poor decision maker. Hakim’s inability to control the boards makes him a rally killer. All he can do on defense is block shots from the weak side. He is so frail, that just having him in there makes it hard to take the Suns seriously. He’s a mid-pubescent teenager playing with grown men.

We also desperately need a fourth quarter anchor. That’s what Amar’e did last year: pick and rolls and iso on the elbow, resulting in either high percentage shots or trips to the line. Neither Hakim nor Channing can do that.
\

The Polish Hammer. Hammer polish. Unpolished post game. Unpublished Fan Posts about it. Post game threads. Puns puns puns. Nailed it! Polish Hammer

by Will Slaven on Jan 24, 2011 3:46 PM MST reply actions  

I don't disagree with you about Warrick

but I disagree with the general statement that Hakim nor Channing can be Amare; not because I think they can be, but because in this system, I don’t believe they’re supposed to be.

Frankly, we have to forget about what Amare did. He was an oddity that succeeded well beyond what anyone every could have hoped for and in the end, he created a role for himself that can’t be taught to anyone else because there isn’t another player out there with his size, speed, strength, and jumping ability.

Noone player is going to replace Amare. Instead As I said in the post, the Suns use Gortat/Lopez for the PnR and Frye/Warrick for the mid to long range jumper. The nice benefit to this is that it really does spread the floor that much more than before because you’re using two moving pieces rather than one. The major drawbacks are that you don’t have that ‘go-to’ guy to get it done and Warrick is not the proto-type shooting PF that the Suns need. He’s more similar to Amare in style (just not in ability) which creates problems with clogging the lane.

by styks on Jan 24, 2011 4:15 PM MST up reply actions  

None of our current bigs can finish for crap!

Amare could finish, when we needed points we threw into him and he either:

1. Scored
2. Got to the free throw line
3. Got double teamed and kicked out to the wings.
Warrick cant finish, Gortat is not consistent at it either, and Channing rarely does it.

It totally messes up the offense. A PnR or PnP does no good if the roller doesn’t finish!
Thats why, and rightly so, everyone wants a true effective PF.

At the very least the Suns need a real consistant scorer, besides Nash. Carter is o.k., but JRich was better in clutch moments. Nash has no one he can rely on when they have to get points other than himself, and he can be snuffed out by good D.

" Dick Bavetta and Moses parted the Red Sea together". ----Charles Barkley

by thedoovage on Jan 25, 2011 10:09 PM MST reply actions  

I guess you didn't actually read what I wrote...

because Channing’s role in the offense isn’t to ‘finish’ it’s to spread the defense by being a threat on the outside.

Amare was a freak of nature…and how many years of having time with Steve Nash? Oh right SIX!!!! So as you can imagine, Amare had a lot of time to learn how to play that game. And for what? That’s ALL he could do for most of those 6 years. It wasn’t until 07-08 that Amare even needed to consider having jump shot in his bag of tricks. But now he’s developed it.

So if it took Amare that long to learn how to PnR and finish, why in all that is holy would we EXPECT someone else to come in here and be able to do everything that Amare could do after 6 years.

Have some patience, be mindful of the system, and forget Amare ever existed.

by styks on Jan 25, 2011 10:34 PM MST up reply actions  

Amare was always a threat to faceup and drive

because he was LOOKING for contact perpetually. Other than that, good post.

Trade Warrick!!!

by jc79 on Jan 27, 2011 5:23 PM MST up reply actions  

Amare could finish from day one.

He had a limited arsenal, but he could get the ball in the hole at the rim. It wasn’t until later that he had a jump shot true, but he still made defenses come to him when he got the ball.

I know Channing’s job is to spread the floor, but that just goes to my point, the Suns need a PF that can finish at the rim. We have plenty of perimeter shooters. No one on this team at the 4 or 5 makes opposing defenses think twice about leaving those perimeter shooters.

Because of that, unless someone is in the zone, the offense is mediocre. That equals losing.

" Dick Bavetta and Moses parted the Red Sea together". ----Charles Barkley

by thedoovage on Jan 26, 2011 7:07 AM MST reply actions  

You're still missing my point

Either get rid of Lopez, Gortat, AND Frye and completely change the system to run it with someone who is LIKE Amare, but never, EVER going to BE Amare, or use the system the way it is designed.

I’ll choose the later of the two since there never will be another Amare.

by styks on Jan 26, 2011 6:31 PM MST up reply actions  

In case any of you forget.

Here are some highlights of Amare’s rookie year, right from high school remember. How long has Hak been in the league?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPdCK3pihAw

" Dick Bavetta and Moses parted the Red Sea together". ----Charles Barkley

by thedoovage on Jan 26, 2011 7:16 AM MST reply actions  

You need to learn how to reply to a comment...

so that the thread builds accordingly, not with new comments on the original post

by styks on Jan 26, 2011 6:32 PM MST up reply actions  

I disagree about Horford.

Al is my man-crush as far as prospective PFs right now. He is a very good post player, that is true. But he is also very good at playing in space. He has range out to 17-20 feet, and can handle the ball as well. A trade sending one of our Cs to ATL and bringing back Al would be tremendous IMO.

Good post though. I agree that some people are calling for something that wouldn’t becessarily be good for the team. We are not a traditional team, and bringing in traditional players at this point wouldn’t be the smartest idea. We need a guy who can shoot, rebound, and defend, and some occasional post scores would be nice as well. Unfortunately, that describes a complete PF and there aren’t too many of those.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

And go Shawn Watson and Barney Cotton! Seriously, leave Lincoln. Now.

Super Bowl here we come!

by Omaha Sun on Jan 26, 2011 6:06 PM MST reply actions  

don't get me wrong

I like Horford too. I would be willing to unload Lopez (whom I like a lot even if he’s not developing as quickly as I’d prefer) AND Gortat for Horford if he was willing to play the 5, not the 4. But he’s not willing to do that, even in our system (I’m guessing and betting on the last comment).

The problem is that if he was a 4, he would clog the middle and remove any benefit of the PnR (which is Nash’s bread and butter).

by styks on Jan 26, 2011 6:35 PM MST up reply actions  

Like I was saying, he isn't Shaq.

He doesn’t just sit in the paint. He can play out in space. And when he plays with Robin or Channing, I think the spacing would be fine. Gortat might not be a great partner though.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

And go Shawn Watson and Barney Cotton! Seriously, leave Lincoln. Now.

Super Bowl here we come!

by Omaha Sun on Jan 26, 2011 6:38 PM MST up reply actions  

so you would see Horford

running the PnR with Nash…right?

So if Gortat is the 5, then what does that do with Gortat’s defender? Gortat has to be able to be outside reasonable range in order to create the space needed for the PnR. But if Gortat is outside reasonable range, then his defender is going to leave him to help double the PnR.

So if you want a PF who is running the PnR, you have to have a C who can shoot from outside.

The WHOLE point of the Suns offense is 2 people play inside the arc and 3 play outside. 1 of those 2 inside is Nash and the other is the PnR. If the PnR is a C, you have an outside shooting PF, and vice versa.

So either BSOTS fans need to rethink the type of players they want based on the system, or they need to convince us all that the Suns need a new offensive system.

By the way, not to “knock” Nash, but he ran the PnR in Dallas as well. That’s the “type” of point guard he is. He does NOT run any other type of offense nearly as efficiently.

I’m not hating on BSOTS fans with this. All I’m saying is that sure, have your man crush on having a “twin towers” offensive set, but it just plain doesn’t work in the current offensive system unless one of those twin towers can shoot a 3 with any sort of consistency.

When the Suns used Amare as the 5 and Marion at the 4, where was Shawn Marion? He was outside the 3 point line. So was Raja Bell. So was Leandro Barbosa. So was Boris Diaw.

Horford can create his space. But if Horford were to come to the Suns, he’d play the 4 and Frye would move back to the 5 and then all the BSOTS fans would piss and moan that we don’t have a Center who plays down low at the block and rebounds the ball. The complaint would be the same, the position would be different.

by styks on Jan 26, 2011 6:51 PM MST up reply actions  

A Lopez-Horford front-line might work out fine.

Both guys can hit jumpshots. They don’t necessarily have to be 3s to space the floor. Horford and Frye would work great. And like I said, Horford-Gortat would not be a good pair.

I too laugh at those calling for twin towers. Gortat does not have the skills to play next to another C, but Horford might.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

And go Shawn Watson and Barney Cotton! Seriously, leave Lincoln. Now.

Super Bowl here we come!

by Omaha Sun on Jan 26, 2011 10:04 PM MST up reply actions  

First of all, AL HORFORD IS SIMPLY THE BEST YOUNG BIG IN THE NBA

I am not saying he is the best right now, but pretty close. By far, I am more impressed with him than any of the other YOUNG guy. His ceiling is superstar. He has all the tools on both ends of the floor.

However, if you think we have ANY assets that would pry him from ATL, please explain. If I were the ATL GM, there is no way I trade him for anyone except maybe Durant. That ain’t happening. I would trade everyone else on that team and put players around him, but he would be my focal piece.

by coachj14 on Jan 27, 2011 5:33 PM MST up reply actions  

+1

I thought this guy was a great pick at #3, and should have been #2, when he came out of college.

Trade Warrick!!!

by jc79 on Jan 27, 2011 5:40 PM MST up reply actions  

not working

Nash can do more than only pick and roll offense. He was pretty successful with Nowitski in Dallas for many years and Dirk isn’t exactly a “roll to the basket” type player off of the pick and roll partner.

If it’s Nash, Gortat, Al Horford, Frye and whoever (Vince/Dudley) the team has the potential to be fine on offense anyway.

by eagleheart on Jan 28, 2011 6:41 AM MST up reply actions  

I don't disagree

All I’m saying is that if you trade for Al Horford, you would have to consider getting rid of Nash and completely changing the offensive system. Nash is a master the PnR. That is HIS offense that he works best in. And if Horford were to play the PnR with Nash, he would play it as a 4 not a 5. So Channing Frye would slide to the 5 position and everyone would be clamoring for a different C that Frye because he shoots outside all the time and isn’t inside enough.

Omaha thinks Horford and Lopez could work as 4 and 5 (respectively) but I’m not sold on it. I think coachj14 made a good point about why the PnR didn’t work with Amare and Shaq and I feel the same problem will exist if you try to use Horford and Lopez. There’s a chance that it could be brilliant, but then we get to the question of who would Atlanta need for us to take Horford from them (I doubt there’s a single person on the planet they want for Horford, even Durant). And if we really start down this line, we get into rosterbation which I don’t want to do.

by styks on Jan 27, 2011 10:40 PM MST reply actions  

Horford and Frye would be fine

because we need one interior defender, and one guy to spread the floor. Problem with Amare was that we needed Frye to be both and he cant. Horford can play defense, so that problem is solved and that allows Frye to do what he does – spread the floor.

Right now, there aren’t too many bigs that can match Frye offensively on the perimeter. Sure Brian Cook can shoot it, but he is actually a worse overall player than Frye. Brad Miller is solid, but old and overpaid. I don’t see another guy out there that is relatively inexpensive, is big enough to cover the lesser offensive big, and really spread the floor. Ohhhh, if Kurt Thomas was 25 again.

by coachj14 on Jan 28, 2011 12:17 PM MST up reply actions  

Kurt is ageless

it’s not like he’s going to lose a step… he never had one
he’s not going to lose his leaping ability… never had any of that either
He’s just big, strong, smart, and dirty.

Trade Warrick!!!

by jc79 on Jan 29, 2011 8:54 PM MST up reply actions  

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