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Phoenix Suns 2011-2012 Position Analysis: Wings

Dudz and Grant are ready to roll.

Greetings, Brightsiders! Welcome to installment one of our look at the Suns roster by position. We tip it off today with a look at our wing players. Only 8 days until the regular season opener!

When your starting shooting guard has only started 37 games in his career and your starting small forward is 39 years old, it's difficult to call the position a team strength. Then again, Grant Hill is hardly your typical 39-year old and Jared Dudley has made a career of proving his critics wrong. And there's no doubting the high character, basketball IQ and work ethic of either of them.

Backing them up will be two athletic players who are hungry for the opportunity to prove themselves: Josh Childress and Shannon Brown. Childress will attempt to rebound from a disappointing 2010-2011 campaign while newcomer Brown will be playing for his next contract after leaving the Lakers, and the job as Kobe Bryant's backup, to come to Phoenix.

Can the Suns' wings be a force this season? Or will we continue to lament the absence of former leading scorer Jason Richardson? Let's break it down after the jump.

Star-divide

The logjam of wing players for the Suns last season included, at one time or another, Richardson, Hill, Dudley, Childress, Vince Carter, Hedo Turkoglu and Mickael Pietrus. With Carter waived and now in Dallas, and Pietrus to be traded as soon as his health allows it, the Suns figure to have better role definition this season. Head coach Alvin Gentry shouldn't have to tinker with his rotations as much, which can only help matters for a team that was in constant flux last year.

Let's look at the four wing players the Suns will be relying on this season.

Jared Dudley

Can you believe that Dudley entered the NBA as a "tweener" forward? Scouting reports doubted his athletic ability to play SF, let alone the SG position he will be manning for the Suns this season, and will require him to defend players such as Kobe Bryant and Manu Ginobili. To prepare himself for this challenge, Dudley spent his offseason working with Impact Basketball in Las Vegas, playing competitive games against real NBA opponents.

Dudley's strengths are accurate shooting (career 42% 3-pointers), a high basketball IQ, toughness, and terrific attitude and work ethic. He started to add the ability to create his own shot last season and identified that as a point of emphasis for improvement this past off-season. On defense, he's a wily player but struggles to keep up with faster, quicker opponents.

Preseason reports of Dudley have been encouraging and it appears he has secured the starting spot over Brown. In a best case scenario, Dudley would be a bench player extraordinaire as he was for the Western Conference finalist 2009-2010 Suns. All of the work he's done, all the intangibles he possesses might not be enough to overcome his lack of athleticism, but if there is a player who has done everything in his power to earn the opportunity, it's Dudley.

Shannon Brown

In skillset, Brown is sort of the Bizarro Dudley. An outstanding athlete, Brown will wow us with breathtaking dunks and other feats of skywalking Dudley can only dream of, but lacks Dudley's smooth shooting stroke, basketball IQ and all-around game. The Suns are going to need Brown to be a spot-up 3-point shooter playing with the slashing Josh Childress and mid-range game of Grant Hill. His results have been mixed so far in his career. He's only a 34% 3-point shooter, but he's not shy about taking them, as he averaged 4.9 attempts per 36 minutes last season. This points to Brown's iffy shot selection, which sounds similar to the man he's replacing, Mickael Pietrus.

However, Brown will get out and run, which is a part of the game the Suns were missing last season, and is known as a strong defender. His career defensive win shares are greater than his offensive WS's, according to Basketball Reference, as his athleticism helps him tremendously on the defensive end. Physically, he can match up.

Like Dudley, Brown is a player with something to prove this season. He opted out of the final year of his contract with the Lakers to become a free agent and sign a 1-year deal with the Suns, expecting to have more opportunity to showcase his talents for his next contract. At 26 years of age, this next contract will likely be the most lucrative of his career, so he'll have plenty of motivation. As backup SGs go, Brown is above average. Over the last two seasons, he averaged around 8 PPG in 20 MPG. The Suns could probably live with that, but he can potentially increase those numbers depending upon Dudley's success and how many minutes Brown will get. The key will be more accurate shooting from Brown.

Grant Hill

It can be said that Hill held the Suns' near-term fate in his hands when he weighed his free agency options after the lockout ended. Had he signed elsewhere, would Steve Nash still have been willing to finish out his career in Phoenix without his good friend and co-captain Hill in the fold? The Suns compensated him well, as his $6.5M salary this year will be his highest as a Sun, but that isn't why Hill returned. In an interview with Phoenix radio station XTRA 910, he said that:

"Last year was a tough year for us in a lot of ways with a lot of transition and a lot of changes personnel wise. A lot of changes in the front office. A lot of reasons for no excuses, but you just feel like you want to…you can’t go out like that."

Hill's drive is to bring the Suns back to relevancy. To that end, he figures to continue to be the glue player he has been in his time with the team, playing strong defense to go along with his excellent mid-range shot, passing skills and occasional 3-pointers. The condensed schedule this season might mean fewer minutes for Hill and could spell problems for the team if his body can't hold up to the grind. He's a special athlete who keeps himself in impeccable physical condition and has defied age in his time in Phoenix, but at some point the tank will run dry. Let's hope it's not this season.

Josh Childress

Childress is a much better player than he showed last season. A toxic brew of circumstances including a broken finger, problems adjusting back to the NBA game and constantly changing rotations poisoned Childress' first season in Phoenix, and he was mentioned as an amnesty candidate as the lockout ended. Now with a defined role as Grant Hill's backup at SF, Childress is ready to make a bigger contribution than he did last year, when he made only one 3-point shot all season and averaged a career low 5.0 PPG.

Childress will probably never be a great shooter with his unusual stroke, but his offensive game last year was comprised of almost nothing but shots around the basket, and he's capable of more than that. Whether it was because of his injured finger, or inability to get consistent minutes, Childress never seemed to find his rhythm. His rebounding and work around the basket were welcome additions for a Suns team that struggled to get easy baskets at times last year, and a Brown/Childress pairing will bring energy and athleticism off the Suns bench.

It would be a waste to have Childress parked out at the 3-point line often, but he'll need to be able to knock that shot down when defenders sag off of him and leave him wide open. His career 34% 3-point shooting suggests he should be able to do that, but he has averaged less than one 3-point attempt per game so he's only really trying them when he's wide open.

Summary

With the exception of Dudley, I wish all of these players were better shooters. Hill and Childress should be able to hit occasional corner 3s, Brown will bomb away with questionable success, but the Suns could use another player with Dudley's sharpshooting skills. In that sense, Jason Richardson hasn't yet been replaced and this Suns team probably won't be an offensive juggernaut as in seasons past.

It should also be noted that, on a team with several likeable players, Hill and Dudley are the most beloved Suns outside of Steve Nash, and for good reason. Whatever they deliver this season, we can be certain they will have squeezed every last bit out of their abilities, and it's never smart to bet against characters like that.

All statistics quoted were sourced from BasketballReference.com.

Comment 509 comments  |  6 recs  | 

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Good analysis, Ray...

You hit the nail on the head about Dudz squeezing all he can out of his natural abilities… I believe he will be serviceable at the two. I love his attitude and.He definitely won’t embarass himself or the team. However, I think ultimately if we are to succeed and make the payoffs as a team, we will need Shannon Brown to grab the position by the throat and become that go-to scorer outside of Nashty.He has all the attibutes that the position requires.

Don’t worry about Jared in this scenario as I really think Dudz will be just as valuable if not more valuable coming off the bench as the heart and mind of the second unit.BLUF; We could definitely use Shannon Brown dunking on folks, hitting 38-40% FROM 3PT range, and scoring about 16-18 ppg. We really need Grant and Steve to take young Shannon under their wing and help him figure this out…

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 18, 2011 6:06 PM MST reply actions  

Brown is intriguing, no doubt.

But I don’t want to follow the siren song of his freakish athleticism too much. If he can become a smarter player and shoot more efficiently, then yes but that’s a huge “if”. It’s encouraging to me that the Lakers wanted to keep him and the Heat were reportedly interested in him too.

If only we could use haremoor’s crazy machine that combines players and give Dudley Brown’s athletic ability, we’d have a superstar!

Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo

by East Bay Ray on Dec 18, 2011 6:18 PM MST up reply actions  

If I remembercorrectly, the last time we used that crazy contraption...

We ended up with the “Griffark…”

(Shudder)I guess we’ll just have to be patient….

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 18, 2011 6:57 PM MST up reply actions  

hey, that T-bird must be pretty tasty! 16-18 ppg and 38-40% from 3-pt range? That’s more than double his career average in pts. I’ll be happy with 9-11 ppg on 36-37% 3-pt shooting. If he also brings spirited defense, 1-2 highlights a game and a great attitude and work ethic, then the Suns will have themselves a bargain.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 7:11 AM MST up reply actions  

Good point, Alex, but truth be told...

I said we could use him giving us those numbers…I didn’t say we were going to get it. If he grabs the 2 guard position with authority, we can get those numbers out of him….It’s really up to how he adjusts and if he can demonstrate that he is capable of living up to his potential.

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 7:17 AM MST up reply actions   1 recs

semantics, shemanticks

Crashing the [message] boards from the swamps of Louisiana, and blogging Phoenix Suns!

by PHXgp on Dec 19, 2011 8:52 AM MST up reply actions  

Dudley has a lot better chance to get those numbers and probably will. I know after he was a starter last year, he averaged 16.5 pts, and the percentages were pretty high. He is our starting 2. Shannon needs to come in and be a good backup, and I think he’ll do a fine job.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 1:04 PM MST up reply actions  

THis could be debated all tday...

Bottom line is that even though I love Dudz like a bottle of Thunderbid on sale, he’s never going to be a threat ala Westbrook or J.R. Smith (He may never be that kind of knucklehead, either…). Shannon has that kind of potential..Just has to get an opportunity and his head on tight…

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 1:13 PM MST up reply actions  

Completely disagree. Dudz is and will always be better than Brown.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 1:15 PM MST up reply actions  

We'll see how the season plays out...

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 1:19 PM MST up reply actions  

Brown does not have the potential to be like Smith or Westbrook.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 2:53 PM MST up reply actions  

He's got the athleticism and the type of body/skillsets many great scorers have...

What he needs is guidance, the right situation, and a breakout ….Will he achieve it here? we will see…I do know that if this year is a bust for him, he probably will never be more than a career back-up, if that…

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 3:46 PM MST up reply actions  

What he doesn't have is the skills those two have.

Athleticism isn’t the only thing necessary to be a good basketball player.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 4:38 PM MST up reply actions  

yup

just ask Paul Peirce hes more smarts than athletic. although he is a SF which is what Dudley naturally is.

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Dec 19, 2011 4:42 PM MST up reply actions  

I dunno...Paul Pierce was very athletic when he came into the league...

Not an Andre Igoudala certainy, but he could do a lot of things.. (Defenitely more athletic than Dudz..) Paul’s has gotten smarter and his game has expanded as he’s gotten older and can’t rely on athleticism anymore….

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 4:45 PM MST up reply actions  

right i should edit that.

current paul peirce whose still effective despite his declined athleticism

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Dec 19, 2011 5:06 PM MST up reply actions  

Not Dudley’s fault, and that was with last year’s team. Should be much different this year.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 2:29 PM MST up reply actions  

Really?

All we did was add 3 players who likely won’t make a huge impact, I predict around 500 % again.

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 19, 2011 2:51 PM MST up reply actions  

Thats the spirit!

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 2:52 PM MST up reply actions  

I'd settle for that.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 3:11 PM MST up reply actions  

Now, THAT’s fuzzy math. :)

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 3:14 PM MST up reply actions  

Sorry,

.500

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 19, 2011 4:12 PM MST up reply actions  

Drop the % too.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 4:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Why?

Last year we were 0.488% of 1.000%, which out of 82 translated to 40 wins. It’s a percentage.

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 19, 2011 4:58 PM MST up reply actions  

no we were ...

48.8% out of 100%

.488% = .00488 – the percentage sign implies divide by 100.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 5:42 PM MST up reply actions   3 recs

word

per centum

Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."

by rsavaj on Dec 19, 2011 6:30 PM MST up reply actions  

Preach!

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 9:49 PM MST up reply actions  

For the record, by my unofficial count, Dudley became a starter on March 27th

And started for the last 11 games. The team was 4-7 during that stretch. Not enough of a sample size to tell us anything significant, IMO. I didn’t check how many points he scored in each.

Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo

by East Bay Ray on Dec 19, 2011 3:16 PM MST up reply actions  

and

5 of those games were pretty unwinnable with last years team (Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, Heat, and Hornets without Nash).

BAMF goes HAM.

by brian13 on Dec 19, 2011 10:48 PM MST up reply actions  

thats because they only let him play when the game was already over.

also that stat is wrong. i remember dudley scoring 36 pts in the game after we traded J rich and we won.

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Dec 19, 2011 4:44 PM MST up reply actions  

WTB shot doctor

Remember when the suns could teach people to shoot?

Following the drama from down unda...

by ZonaFlash on Dec 18, 2011 7:12 PM MST reply actions  

A shooters stroke is a bit like a golf swing; once bad habits have been learned it’s hard to break them. I believe we still have some staff that can teach players and help them with their stroke, but old habits die hard.

For Childress there pretty much is no hope on someone teaching him more on shooting due to his ugly release, but if he got more comfortable from behind the ark, and put in the practice, he could improve slightly.

I guess what I am saying is you can teach someone all day, everyday about shooting but there is a lot more that goes into it. A good example is Dragic, he had a great looking stroke, and I am sure they worked endlessly with him, but he still was very streaky and not dependable.

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 18, 2011 7:28 PM MST up reply actions  

I'll give our wings a C

Our frontcourt a C+ and our backcourt an A because we still have Steve Nash.

Last year we were a C- team by the end of the season. I think our potential this year is a B- and that’s if everything goes right. If everything goes wrong, we’re a C- team again.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 18, 2011 7:37 PM MST reply actions  

I'd agree with most of this.

Although I think our bigs certainly have a chance to better. If we get the Lopez from 09-10, and Frye and Gortat continue to improve like I think they will, we could have a very good front court.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 18, 2011 10:28 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

How do you define "backcourt" and "wings?"

Don’t they overlap? “Wing” generally refers to shooting guards and small forwards, while backcourt refers to point guards and shooting guards and occasionally small forwards.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 18, 2011 11:51 PM MST up reply actions  

Mainly just referring to PG's/Combo Guards when I think of a backcourt.

“Wings” would be swingmen/small-forwards/shooting guards

Frontcourt would be Centers/Powerforwards/Tweeners= PF/C

Then you’ve got the SF/PF tweeners and these guys can be categorized as either a frontcourt player or a wing. It just depends upon the system of the team and the style of their play.

For example:

Marion basically fell under the forward tweener category the majority of his time here, but I’d consider him a wing because of his game. He may grab a lot of rebounds, but he seemed to spend just as much time if not a little more out on the perimeter. Now that he’s gotten older, I think he’s strictly become a small-forward who may put some occasional time in as a PF.

Now with another Forward Tweener like Diaw, it was different. The guy could really play about 3 positions, but I never thought of him as a wing player because on both offense and defense, he seemed to spend the majority of the time in the paint going up against other PF’s and Centers. Despite his versatility or capability of playing SF, I’d list him as a front-court player.

So anyway, that’s just how I prefer to define them.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 2:44 PM MST up reply actions  

front court C+? no way

Frontcourt B-
Backcourt(if the back ups play solid) A
Wings C+

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Dec 19, 2011 4:47 PM MST up reply actions  

lol

C+ no way! More like B-

Yeah, that’s so different

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Dec 19, 2011 5:13 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

hey just ask my daughter in college who needs a B average to keep her scholarship. B- is a BIG difference over C+.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 5:24 PM MST up reply actions  

i would give our SG's and SF's

a D+.

and then our PF and C’s a C.

point guard A- i guess?

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 5:20 PM MST up reply actions  

Don't forget about Channing's ability to space the floor.

we haven’t regained J-Rich’s shooting ability at the SG position, sure, but bringing JD into a lineup that has Channing (hopefully) peaking from downtown could make up for a lot of that. And I wouldn’t terribly mind it if Brown found his early-season shooting form again.

This team is “scrappy” as in years past and it seems like what we’re missing is frontcourt experience (comes with another season playing together).

It’s weird but the more I look at it, the higher this crew’s ceiling gets. Though it’s entirely possible that I’m reading this from wayy too close to the situation.

Crashing the [message] boards from the swamps of Louisiana, and blogging Phoenix Suns!

by PHXgp on Dec 18, 2011 8:38 PM MST reply actions  

Not at all

Offensively, we’ll be fine, and there are promising developments defensively (Brown and Morris look like upgrades over VC and Hak).

Injury and fatigue are our main issues. We might have Nash and Hill sit for 10-20 games, or at least play limited minutes in a large number of games. I think that will really kill us unless the backups (Telfair and Price especially) can play adequately.

With our best lineup, I think we’ll be right around break even in terms of differential (oRtg – dRtg), maybe a smidge higher, and that should be good enough for 8th place. Without Nash and/or Hill, though, we look like a deep lottery team.

We all need to pray to whatever god Nash made the longevity pact with, and hope he stays great.

by MMotherwell on Dec 18, 2011 8:56 PM MST up reply actions  

Offensively, we'll be fine until the last 5 minutes.

Improving our defense would help to even things out against our competition, but we’ll still struggle to score against good defensive teams late in the game.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 2:56 PM MST up reply actions  

That is the HUGE question mark, Beav. I think we will have a LOT of close games, even more than last year, thanks to better defense and chemistry and other teams not having the latter in a short season…..but can we win these close games? We’ll see.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 3:16 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah, it's scarry

We have to play well enough to even have a shot at winning in the end and even that will be tough since we don’t have a guy who can draw contact and get to the line. We become totally reliant on Nash, thus making it easier for our opponents to pick a target and lock him down. Then when the game is tied or we’re down by 1, 2, or 3, all we can really do is get an open look for Channing Frye and hope it goes in. Not many options there.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 4:36 PM MST up reply actions  

That's not confined to us

Everybody struggles the last 5 minutes. That is basically the raison d’etre of TrueHoop – to disprove the notion of last minute heroics. Kobe especially has come in for a lot of critique – http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

TL;DR all the guys people think of as helping late rarely do – and in fact the only player who is great last 5 minutes is Chris Paul. (see http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/john_schuhmann/01/27/hornets-chris-paul-clutch/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1)

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24990/chris-pauls-crunch-time-mind is a really good read on this, and really telling.

The biggest thing a team can do is put a game away with 5 to go – close games are, historically, a crapshoot.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 5:05 PM MST up reply actions  

Channing helps. It is really difficult to stop a line-up where 3 or 4 out of the 5 guys on the court can absolutely stroke it from deep. This has certainly been a major part of Creighton’s success this year. 2 of our 3 best 3PT shooters are our 2 PFs, which causes all kinds of problems.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 18, 2011 11:54 PM MST up reply actions  

The problem is that the Suns may have the best

three point shooting starters in the league (with Nash, Dudley, and Frye), but they may have the worst three point shooting bench in the league.

Hopefully one or more guys off the bench can step it up (Brown is probably the most likely candidate) because there isn’t much in terms of shooting there if Dudley and Frye are starting….

It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.

by Jim Coughenour on Dec 19, 2011 10:42 AM MST up reply actions  

which probably just means a lot of juggling lineups to keep 2 shooters on the floor at the same time. Markieff Morris was actually a good 3-pt shooter in college (42% I believe).

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 12:04 PM MST up reply actions  

This.

I doubt we see the line changes like 2 years ago. We’re probably not going to have a first and second unit. Instead we’ll see a lot more mix-and-matching. I can see Kieff/Warrick and Brown playing a lot with Steve, and Frye and Dudz playing some with the second unit. Balancing your starters and bench players is an important part of a coach’s job.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 2:58 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah, we could use about 1 or 2 more 3-point shooters

During 7SOL we had about 4-5 guys who could knock it down from downtown. In 09-10, we had I think 6 1/2.

We do have Pietrus, but he was terrible for some reason. He shot 40% for Orlando, but couldn’t do the same for us. Still, if he gets healthy and is still around, he could possibly replace Childress in the rotation for this year if things don’t work out.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 3:01 PM MST up reply actions  

Which may be a GOOD thing

If the bench stops trying to play like Nash is still out there, and develops its own identity.

A Telfair/Price, Brown, JChill, Morris, Lopez lineup should be able to rebound adequately, create turnovers and score on the break. If that’s the plan – have a bench that plays strong D and scores off turnovers, maybe they’ll merely be bad, rather than horrific.

Seems reasonable to me!

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 5:07 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm not sure your conclusion fits

this Suns team probably won’t be an offensive juggernaut as in seasons past.

I don’t think the evidence supports that. Last year, we were 9th in the league in oRtg, and that was without JRich for over half a season.

But the telling part here in terms of a repeat is the on/off numbers for Nash:
http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?team=PHX&year=2010-2011

oRtg With Nash: 113.94
oRtg WITHOUT Nash: 101.62

We were a 12.3 points per 100 possession better team with Nash in. That was second in the League after Paul Pierce.

100% of our offensive struggles are non-Nash based, e.g. when he sits, we suck. As long as we have Nash, and his performance doesn’t suddenly cliff, we are an offensive Juggernaut. If the backups can be just bad, seriously, bad and not horrific, we should be close to first in the league in oRtg.

In terms of Wings, this year verses last == Shannon Brown + JChill vs Pietrus + VC. Which does one think is better? I think that is about even, and I think the real questions lie at other positions (backup PG and the bigs) and minute allocation, particularly can Nash and Hill play more than 50 games, and if so, at how many minutes?

by MMotherwell on Dec 18, 2011 8:50 PM MST reply actions  

Yeah, a lot of our offense will be non-Nash based

That’s the problem. He won’t be able to play 40 MPG or close to that with the condensed season. Other players will have to create for themselves without Nash doing it for them.

Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo

by East Bay Ray on Dec 18, 2011 9:52 PM MST up reply actions  

We keep having this same discussion over and over again.

The numbers are great. But you have to look at it situationally – We struggled at times late in games when we needed baskets and we struggled when Nash was hobbled by the injuries late last year. Steve Nash is a great player, but we can’t rely on him to handle all of our shot selection. I would not limit our need to a back-up PG, but rather to a player at any position who can get buckets. That could include a PG, but it doesn’t have to be.

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by Omaha Sun on Dec 18, 2011 11:58 PM MST up reply actions  

This.

Which is why there was a post from a few days ago about how we lack a go to scorer. I think that’s our most glaring need at this point. A go to guy can mask the drop off in PG play when Nash sits.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 12:18 AM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

And help Nash when he's in and not feeling great,

perhaps in the second of a B2B.

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by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 12:34 AM MST up reply actions  

The consensus seems to be that team that finished top ten in offence and bottom 10 in defence has a need for more offensive players. Why is that?

Is the defensive talent significantly better this year? Brown and Morris have promise, and if Hak never plays, and we sub out Brooks, maybe. But then, Pietrus was defensively good last year, and Telfair is a sieve. So I’m not sure we are much more than break even on D. Am I missing something here?

Or is is that everyone thinks our new defensive co-ordinator Elston Turner is going to be a difference maker? If so, is that enough to get us into the top half?

I sure hope so, because defence 6th last) and Nash-less play (12 points worse) are our two biggest issues, and defence much more than Nash-less play (6th last is woeful – especially as the teams below us had nothing to play for, and defence is 80% effort). I’m not sure we’ve solved either issue, but the one thing I am certain of is that any Nash led team will be top ten in offence, almost guaranteed.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 6:03 AM MST up reply actions  

I actually think we under achieved in the defensive game last year...

While our players could never really be considered defensive aces (With the exception of Grant Hill) they are capable of a lot better than what they should last year. I just think with the influx of nex players last year , the glut of wings, and players playing out of position contributed to our turnstile defensive effort last season. Give solid rotations, a good scheme, and hard effort, I see no rsason why we can’t be a middle of the road or higher defensive unit instead of nearly last…

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 6:09 AM MST up reply actions  

So you think we'll be what...

Top of the bottom half? We surrendered 110.4 points per 100 possessions last year (25th for those scoring at home), and to get to the top half, we’d need to shave 3.1 off that figure. That’s a heck of a lot.

All that improvement is going to have to come from internal improvement (here’s looking at you Robin), team improvement, (better schemes and better teamwork) and the hope that the additions O(adding Morris, Brown, Telfair/Price) is greater than the loses (not playing/losing Hak, Brooks, VC and Pietrus).

Not playing Pietrus will hurt the most. He was good on D last year (http://www.82games.com/1011/1011PHO1.HTM shows he had out best dRtg), but I’m somewhat confident that Brown adds better diversity, because Pietrus and Hill cover the same guys well, but Brown covers the CP3s and Eric Gordons well. Even if Brown isn’t as good absolutely as Pietrus, Hill + Brown might be better than Hill + Pietrus.

So I guess I’m hopeful, but not overly so. I think we’re a point or two better defensively than last year, – if Morris can play D – and if that is the case, we’ll have a solid differential – good enough for 6-8 would be my guess.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 6:24 AM MST up reply actions  

That points per possession will be improved right off the bat...

Just by getting better at defensive rebounding. We got absolutely crushed by teams due to their offensive rebounding. When teams keep getting all those second and third chanes and offensive tip ins…That hurt! Also having a A little more mental toughness will cover the rest. I am confident when I look at this that there will be a definite improvement this year.

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 7:13 AM MST up reply actions  

Hopefully

I really am hopeful – because our D was SOOO bad, that a 1-2 points per 100 makes us a solid team – .500 to .550, which is 33 → 36 wins. I’d say that’s good for 6-8.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 5:09 PM MST up reply actions  

Also rememer that we had 2 different teams last year.

The pre-trade, post-Lopez injury team was historically bad on defense. The fact that we were able to climb up 5 or 6 spots means we had to have been decent to good. Once we had Gortat and got rid of Hedo, we played better.

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by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 9:53 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm not sure...

Whether to thank you or flip you off for reminding me about Hedo. God, he was sooo awful, and we played him so unwisely (a PF? EEK!). Match made in hell. I wish I could forget him completely, but he did get us Gortat I guess.

If Morris can be OK, and Brown can be Ok – not good, just OK – the D should be much better. If nothing else, I hope we are better on D when Nash sits, because that was a disgrace!

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 10:06 PM MST up reply actions  

We could improve our defense by 3+ ppp

simply by benching Warrick. Sadly, I do not think that will happen.

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by jc79 on Dec 19, 2011 5:17 PM MST up reply actions  

Agreed, Sun. Elston turner should help a lot. We also have Chilly and Fropez who are going to play more minutes this year and are supposed to be better. They should both be good defenders. Then you have Morris and Brown coming in for what I believe will be key roles. We should be significantly better on D.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 1:08 PM MST up reply actions  

We need different offensive players.

Ones that better fit our system.

Also, I don’t consider 9th to be a Juggernaut. All that means is that we’re just a good offensive team. We’re not great because we don’t have good enough offensive players or the kind that compliment Nash’s game, but we’re still good in that area regardless because any team with Nash would be.

Overall, I’d give our offense last year a B and our defense a D-. What does that average out to, a C-?

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 2:52 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm not sure what a C- means

Can you bring that back to something tangible? Also, basketball isn’t a game of averages, it is a game of stars. So being an A anywhere, even if the average is a C, tends to be better than a C everywhere averaging a C. That is why Joel Anthony can suck, so very, very badly, but Miami can still be a finals team. Also, minutes matter. Lebron plays 40 – does it matter if his backup is an F?

Back to offence, we were 9th overall last year, but 1st win Nash in (113.94 – 1.7 better than Denver) and equal last (101.6 with Milwaukee) when he sat. Think about that, EQUAL LAST when Nash sat.

That’s why I have so much hope. The league average was 107.3. If the Nash-less lineups can merely suck, lets say 105, we’ll be close to first.

Even better, if the Nash-less lineups D can improve, we’ll be golden. Seriously, can you believe we were WORSE when Nash sat on DEFENCE? 109.22 with Nash in, 111.80 with Nash out. So when Nash sat, our differential was 101.6 – 111.8 = -10.2. If we can increase the O (105) and improve the D (lets say a below average 108) that’s -3. That should be enough for us to go somewhere between .500 (33 wins) and .600 (39.3 wins).

I’m cool with that, but then I am a wins half full, not half empty, kinda guy.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 5:27 PM MST up reply actions  

I don't understand

So you’re saying we’ll struggle on offence? So, make a prediction – where in the NBA will we finish on offence and defence?

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 5:50 AM MST up reply actions  

The model the Suns have used in the past when they've contended

Was having the most efficient offense in the league coupled with fair to middling defense and rebounding. Having an above average but not elite offense isn’t going to cut it for a team that will still be fair to middling, at best, in defense and rebounding.

If Nash misses any significant amount of time with an injury, our offense will be fortunate to be even average.

Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
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by East Bay Ray on Dec 19, 2011 10:45 AM MST up reply actions  

Not to mention...

….that Nash being out also hurts our defense to a degree. When Nash is out of the game we have more turnovers which lead to easy buckets for the other team or we jack up bad outside shots which tend to have long rebounds that also lead to fast break opportunities. I don’t have any stats to back this up, that’s not my department, but I figure I can safely assume as much.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 12:49 PM MST up reply actions  

With Nash out, our defence was WORSE!

That seems shocking, but when you consider that his backup was Brooks, and the bench included Hak, sometimes paired with Frye. Eek!

The Nash-less lineups just have to be better at EVERYTHING, because last year they sucked everywhere (O, D, rebounding, turnovers… the works).

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 5:29 PM MST up reply actions  

9th in Offensive efficiency <> juggernaut. As long as the Suns don’t have a legit 20-ppg scorer on the roster, they can’t be a juggernaut because no one demands a double-team outside of Nash.

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by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 7:14 AM MST up reply actions  

Exactly.

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by East Bay Ray on Dec 19, 2011 10:27 AM MST up reply actions  

What's a Juggernaut then?

Seriously, they lead the league in oRtg when Nash played. It’s semantics at this point, but with Nash in we are a complete Juggernaut, and with Nash out heaven help us.. on both ends!

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 5:30 PM MST up reply actions  

04-05 Suns

05-06 Suns
06-07 Suns
09-10 Suns
07-08 Suns
09 Suns

Our current offense isn’t even close to being as good as these. It’s good, but not great.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 8:42 PM MST up reply actions  

Those aren't nunbers

Those are years!

04-05 Suns 110.4 (1st of 30)
05-06 Suns 108.4 (1st of 30)
06-07 Suns 110.2 (1st of 30)
07-08 Suns 110.1 (3rd of 30)
09-10 Suns 109.4 (1st of 30)

With Nash in last year, we were better than ALL those marks.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 8:45 PM MST up reply actions  

but what were the Suns offensive numbers in those other years when Nash was in (vs. overall)? Gotta compare apples to apples, right?

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by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 8:49 PM MST up reply actions  

Agreed

Feel free to find them :P

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 9:00 PM MST up reply actions  

haha you started it. I just made an astute observation.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 9:08 PM MST up reply actions  

Too much cutting and pasting

But feeling generous so here yah go :P

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?team=PHX&year=2010-2011 On: 113.94 Off: 101.62
http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?team=PHX&year=2009-2010 ON: 117.52 off: 110.85
http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?team=PHX&year=2008-2009 On: 116.40 Off: 107.63
http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?team=PHX&year=2007-2008 On: 117.77 Off: 102.32

Last year was Nash’s worst, but the drop off shows where to place the blame. The year before makes my point about the bench being important, as that bench scored OK, and defended pretty well. Heck, 2008-09 does as well – Shaq really didn’t help when Nash was out that year at all.

Ultimately, what made last year so bad was that taking Nash out made our defence WORSE. That was the first time that happened, and what an absolute indictment of the bench’s defence.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 9:46 PM MST up reply actions   3 recs

well done, man. Well done.

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by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 9:49 PM MST up reply actions  

Those offensive numbers are gaudy

Almost 118 with Nash in… zoinks!

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Dec 20, 2011 9:52 PM MST up reply actions  

Just for fun, I looked it up. According to Merriam-Webster:

juggernaut : a massive inexorable force, campaign, movement, or object that crushes whatever is in its path

9th place out of 30 doesn’t qualify.

Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
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by East Bay Ray on Dec 19, 2011 8:45 PM MST up reply actions  

1st with Nash in certainly does then, no?

Nash in: 1st. Nash out: Last.

I think we can all agree that the true Juggernaut was the bench – they managed to crush whatever lead the Suns had built up, and were certianly a “a massive inexorable force”, just not in a GOOD way.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 8:47 PM MST up reply actions  

Of course

So maybe the theory is to build two teams: an offensive juggernaut and defensively average Nash team, and a defense first, slow it down, grind it out second unit.

If the backups play a slow tempo (slowest in the league is my advice), defend and rebound well, at the very least they minimise the damage they can do. 5 less bench possessions is 5 less chances to go further behind.

To me, the keys to this season are to MINIMISE the bench’s ability to kill us, rebound and defend a bit better when Nash is in. If we can do that, and we stop trying to play like we do with Nash when Nash sits, I’m looking forward to being competitive in a lot of games. Winning… that’s another story.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 9:05 PM MST up reply actions  

interesting, but virtually impossible to pull off with any degree of success. You can’t go from 10-seconds-or-less mentality to 20-seconds-or-more in the same game. That’s been the problem with the Suns offense since Nash came back. No one can approximate Nash, so they fail miserably.

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by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 9:10 PM MST up reply actions  

I agree no one DOES this

But I don’t think it is impossible. If we use a 5 man bench unit, it should be POSSIBLE.

It would be a complete head f^%$# for opponents, and if we played big (Morris, Lopez, JChill and Dudley), we should be able to get every board if nothing else.

It is an insane idea, but seriously, if the Nash-less units had played 2 less possessions a game, we’d have been better off.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 9:15 PM MST up reply actions  

Or we can choose to avoid the concept of 1st and 2nd unit,

instead we mix and match our plane-ups so we have some of our better shooters/scorers (Dudz, Frye) playing some of their minutes with the bench while some of the guys that need a little help (Brown, Morris/Warrick) can play some of their minutes with Nash.

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by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 10:00 PM MST up reply actions  

When Nash sits

Who runs the PnR? We need a Nash-less identity, and for 14 minutes a night, maybe that can be something odd?

I’d be down with a pressing unit. That’d kill in a year with so many back-back-backs. Morris, Hak, JChill, Brown and Priced would be a killer press unit for 5-10 minutes a night (more 5).
No ONE would want to come to Phoenix and face a pressing team after two road games in two nights.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 10:09 PM MST up reply actions  

Perhaps,

but an effective press really takes a lot of effort, defensive intelligence, and cohesion. Our players struggled mightily with even basic team defensive concepts last year. Pressing could be a disaster.

As for the non-Nash offense, I don’t know. I’m not familiar enough with Bassy or Price to say what kind of offense they can run (although I’m not sure Price can run any kind of offense at all). What we do know is Chill can get us some effort points (back-cuts and offensive rebounds/put-backs) and make a good pass now and then. Lopez can occasionally hit a mid-range jumper and a hook shot. Brown can run the floor, and finish at the rim. We obviously know what Dudz and Frye bring. It’s up to Alvin to put all that together and find some way the non-Nash units can be effective.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

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by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 10:51 PM MST up reply actions  

I don't know about a slow it down/grind it out 2nd unit

The Dragic/Barbs/Dudley/Lou/Frye was fast and furious.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 9:12 PM MST up reply actions  

But we don't have a single one of those players on the second unit.

That bench was really good, the best of the Nash era.

This one certainly is not that. He wants them to slow it down so they have fewer possessions therefore minimizing the impact they have on the game.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

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by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 9:58 PM MST up reply actions  

Has merit no?

Doesn’t have to be ridiculously slow, but slow == less possessions == less harm.

Call it the Sun’s Bench Hypocratic Oath: First, do no harm.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 10:10 PM MST up reply actions  

Let’s see what happens in the preseason first. I’m not sure what kind of mentality the non-Nash units will have. Hopefully Gentry can find out how to make it work.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

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by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 10:52 PM MST up reply actions  

The Dragic/Barbs/Dudley/Lou/Frye was fast and furious.

As I recall, that lineup was very hot and cold offensively, as their entire game was predicated on Dragic/Barbs collapsing defense by penetrating and kicking out to one of the others.

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Dec 20, 2011 9:55 PM MST up reply actions  

Disagree

Amar’e and J-Rich were also killing. Overall, that got us a 28-7 record since the turn around game against Dallas.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 8:56 PM MST up reply actions  

So what you’re saying is that you consider any team with Nash as their starting PG to be an offensive Juggernaut?

I saw our offense last year. I don’t need the stats. We sucked so bad at closing out games with Nash more so than we did in years past. We were a good offensive team with him as evident by the stats, but we weren’t crushing teams. Even if our defense was much better, I still wouldn’t consider us an offensive “juggernaut” because we don’t have a guy who can get to the line when we need him to.

The 04-05 team was the true definition of a Juggernaut. They didn’t even need to play defense 80% of the time because they were so good at putting the ball in the basket. I’m pretty sure Amar’e led the league in dunks and free throws that year. Q led the league in 3 pointers made. JJ shot 47.8% from downtown! Marion of course was all over the place and Nash led the league in assist. We blew by teams with little effort and when we were down it was no problem coming back. Being down by 20 for that team was like only being down by 6. THAT is what a Juggernaut is.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 9:04 PM MST up reply actions  

That 04-05 team may be my favorite ever.

I really loved Q here. He gave us so much personality. I wish we would’ve had that same exact team with the LB from his sixth man year.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 9:12 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Q was a fan favorite of mine. That was one of his few seasons where he was healthy too. I just wished he could have shot a bit better, but he did rebound the ball well and play some OK defense. Didn’t he also hit like 4 game winning threes that year?

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 9:17 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah, poor guy couldn’t catch a break after he left. With injuries and the death of his brother and/or dad shortly after, he just hit road bump after road bump. I feel like he would have continued to get better here. Crazy how he drastically changed his game once he got here too.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 9:43 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

did anybody see the dallas vs. OKC game with V.C.?

I dont think ive ever seen him play so hard and that was just a preseason game. effin b#tch

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Dec 18, 2011 9:44 PM MST reply actions  

Wow. Nope. Didn’t see that. Crazy. You sure you saw the right bald hairy guy?

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 2:46 AM MST up reply actions  

but he still only shot 4 for 11. So, if that all his effort provides, so be it.

I fully expect him to put in more effort than we saw, as long as the Mavs are contenders. He’d like to get a ring.

But, honestly, as much as I try to be “live and let live”, I still don’t want to see him have a good year.

Grant Hill for prez.

by sun-arc on Dec 19, 2011 11:09 AM MST via mobile up reply actions  

i mean his production was sub par

but he actually was going inside and diving after balls and such. I guess playing with khloe watching will do that.

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Dec 19, 2011 4:56 PM MST up reply actions  

He still was terrible for the team. If I remember right they were -21 with him on the floor. He sucks.

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by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 11:39 AM MST up reply actions  

This team can't run...

and it can’t gun.

But it’s the biggest Suns team I can remember us having. I’m thinking the answer is to slow the game down and just overpower smaller teams with our 6-10 to 7 footers.

I don’t see that we have a lot to lose if we go twin or triple towers, since nobody expects us to do much anyway and all the contracts are structured for a complete team overhaul next season.

Question is, does Gentry know how to coach that style of play?

I'm Michael Beasley's imaginary friend.

by suns68 on Dec 18, 2011 10:29 PM MST via mobile reply actions  

I think this team can still run more than people think. Nash, Hill, Brown, Price, Telfair and even Dudley should be able to get out and run some on the break. Even our bigs in Frye, Lopez, Gortat, and Warrick are pretty athletic for their size. I agree that this is a bigger Suns team than normal, but I think our advantage would still be in pushing the tempo. The benefit being that if we do get bogged down in a half court game, we should be better equipped than in year’s past.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 18, 2011 11:10 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

The problem we've had

Is that you can’t run if you don’t get rebounds.

Most of the Fastbreak points in the NBA are 2 on 1s or breakaways – we’ve lacked an open court presence for while. Maybe Shannon Brown can do that, maybe not, but at least he and Hill are two threats.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 5:54 AM MST up reply actions  

Having Gortat

will help our rebound problem….We reeally have missed that aspect of the game since Marion left, who incidentally was our best rebounder. If Gortat can give us 9 rpg a game and Robin/Frye/Warrick/Morris can contribute 20rpg between the four of them, it can work…Problem is I an not sure Robin/Frye/Warrick/Morris will give use a combined 20 rpg a game…

This way, Grant doesn’t have to help out on the boards and he can get out in the break lanes along with Shannon. THose two should crate havoc if they are running free. It really depends on our big men doing their job.

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 6:03 AM MST up reply actions  

Agreed

Sorry if that wasn’t clear. We’ve been bad at rebounding forever, but last year we were 3rd last in both defensive and offensive rebounding percentage – a terrible result.

This year, I’ve got real hope we can be average. and average is awesome for us. Gortat, IMHO, will be closer to 12 than 9, and Morris should give us another + rebounder at his position. If Lopez can do better than last year, and good-rebounding Frye plays more than soft Frye, and Hak NEVER plays, we have a solid chance to be average.

Consider this: of all our players – http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids=266%2C395%2C264%2C265%2C269%2C272 – only two were above average rebounders for their position: Gortat and Nash. If we can solve the rebounding issue, and utilise open court guys like Brown, Telfair and Price, while Hill gets his sneaky few, we will hopefully be more effective running this year.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 6:13 AM MST up reply actions  

Well I also believe we can be average boarders..

However, I think it’s unrealistic to expect Gortatto pull down 12 rpg..I think 9-10 is more appropriate especailly when we consider he will project to 30 minutes a game with robin backing him up.

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 7:09 AM MST up reply actions  

If we play Gortat only 30 mins, we’re stupid. He needs to be at least in the 34-36 range, maybe a bit higher. I think he’ll get 10.5-11 rbds a game.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 1:12 PM MST up reply actions  

With the compressed scheduled and Marcin's proclivity towards fouls...

I just don’t see more than 30-32 minutes a game…If he pulls down 10rpg in that window, we are fine….

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 1:17 PM MST up reply actions  

I think he’ll be fine with the sched. Dude’s a warrior. You may be right about the fouls. Even if Lopez plays better, we’re still better with Gortat about 34-38 minutes a game.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 1:27 PM MST up reply actions  

sorry to hear about Gortat's proclivity...

I hope it gets better before the regular season starts… maybe there’s some kind of ointment he could take, or something

by SteveNash, QuantumPhysicist on Dec 19, 2011 3:09 PM MST up reply actions  

lol FOULZ B GONE GEL, patent pending

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 3:17 PM MST up reply actions  

One rub on the scalp and now your David Robinson...

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 3:37 PM MST up reply actions  

Gortat proclivity for fouls? Are you thinking of RoLo?

Gortat only averaged 3 fouls per 36 mins for us last year.

Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo

by East Bay Ray on Dec 19, 2011 3:21 PM MST up reply actions  

He got in some early foul trouble in a few games..

That in itself is an issue…He seemed to not have that issue once he settled down in the game…

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 3:35 PM MST up reply actions  

I don’t remember this either. I really think you’re thinking of Rolo.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 5:28 PM MST up reply actions  

Maybe I am...

But usuaally I am pretty good with stuff like that…Then again I do drink…a lot…

Damn alcohol….

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 5:29 PM MST up reply actions  

Oh good. Then he should be playing 36, or more

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 3:36 PM MST up reply actions  

thanks Ray. I was going to look this up.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 5:27 PM MST up reply actions  

Gortat's career average for rebounds

is around 11 per 36 minutes. I’m expecting him to come in around that number, barring injury.

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Dec 19, 2011 5:20 PM MST up reply actions  

Last year Gortat averaged, for us

9.3 in 29.7 minutes. If he gets to 32 minutes, he’ll get 10 easily. If he gets to 36, he’ll be closer to 12 (11.3 last year according to http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gortama01.html)

You’re right though, minutes are the key,I fully expect Gortat to get closer to 12 than 9 – 10.5 is the midpoint, so something over that is what I’m predicting.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 5:36 PM MST up reply actions  

Completely agree, SG. Lopez and Morris are going to be very, very important. You are right that Hill and Brown could wreak havoc in transition if given the opportunity. Maybe Chilly and Dudley every now and then too.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 1:11 PM MST up reply actions  

Dudley is kinda sneaky on the break

He kind of leaks out really quietly when running out on 3 point shooters.

If we rebound better, all the backcourt players can leak out more often, rather than stay home to help rebound. That should really, really help our break.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 5:38 PM MST up reply actions  

its not lookin good. at all.

i’m just hoping we play hard this season.

i also hope we can keep Childress jump shots to a minimum. His shot and Tebow’s throwing motion are the two ugliest things in sports

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 1:01 AM MST reply actions  

lol, you got a point there

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 2:46 AM MST up reply actions  

what about Marion’s stroke

Crashing the [message] boards from the swamps of Louisiana, and blogging Phoenix Suns!

by PHXgp on Dec 19, 2011 8:56 AM MST up reply actions  

Marion had a stroke?!

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 9:39 AM MST up reply actions   3 recs

another example of one of “the ugliest things in sports”. I still don’t know how he ever dunked without raising his arms higher than his shoulders

Crashing the [message] boards from the swamps of Louisiana, and blogging Phoenix Suns!

by PHXgp on Dec 19, 2011 10:36 AM MST up reply actions  

It's called athleticism...

…Which MArion had plenty of….Incidentally, We have lost some in our break ever since he left. Hopefully Shannon Brown will help us regain some of it…

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 11:11 AM MST up reply actions  

Awesome write-up EBR

I am expecting even more this season from good ol’ JD. There is nothing this guy doesn’t do that I don’t love and I know he has been very hard at work in the offseason. He has great drive and I can tell Nash and Hill have rubbed off on him. I always liked what he did for us off the bench but he really is playing quality basketball for us so I have no problem starting him. I know he only has so much potential to reach into but I don’t feel like he is peaking yet.

I am also not as down on Chilly as many seem to be. He was thrown in a tough spot last year (finger, no playing time, adjusting to NBA) but I am a huge fan of his after seeing him play last season. He brought so much effort and was always grabbing boards and blocking shots. I look for him to have more minutes (and more of an impact) this season.

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 1:10 AM MST reply actions  

great breakdown Ray!

We got a lot of incomplete parts. Hopefully their sum will be greater than those parts.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 7:17 AM MST reply actions  

Amen

I'm Michael Beasley's imaginary friend.

by suns68 on Dec 19, 2011 8:33 AM MST via mobile up reply actions  

nice job ray

we could be ok this year, but we really lack star power. we’re mostly steve nash and role players he made better. we just need to sign a 17-20 ppg scorer and we’re a dangerous team. easier said than done haha

Well, all this lockout means is that Steve Nash can rest up, so I'm fine with it. It better not cut into the season though.

by 2time on Dec 19, 2011 10:14 AM MST reply actions  

Dudley averaged 16.5 as a starter last year, and I think he’ll get at least that this year. If we can defend and rebound this year, I am really excited. We should be much better than last year and make the playoffs is guys like Chilly, Lopez, and Morris live up to their ceilings.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 1:14 PM MST up reply actions  

did he really?

well, if he can produce like that all year then I’m fine, but i still think that this team really needs an all star or scorer (kevin martin?) to put it over the top.

Well, all this lockout means is that Steve Nash can rest up, so I'm fine with it. It better not cut into the season though.

by 2time on Dec 19, 2011 2:53 PM MST up reply actions  

He did. I understand your sentiment, and that would make us better, no doubt. But I think we’ll be all right and a low playoff seed. Impossible to predict, but I think we’ll fight for it and have a good shot.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 3:18 PM MST up reply actions  

mmhmmm

Well, all this lockout means is that Steve Nash can rest up, so I'm fine with it. It better not cut into the season though.

by 2time on Dec 19, 2011 3:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Extremely eloquent expatiation, EBR

This year should be interesting because so many players are still unknowns or have room to grow…

Dudley
Ceiling – He continues to assert himself more on the offensive end like we saw him start to do at the end of last season and becomes the Suns best one-on-one scorer.
Floor – He pushes himself too hard trying to become the above mentioned player and struggles. JD has already shown that he can be the scrappy, gutsy, perennial sixth man of the year type player… can he be more?

Brown
Ceiling – Playing next to Nash and for a contract in the same year culminates into the perfect set of circumstances. Brown plays well enough to allow Dudley to move back to his ideal role as the catalyst and leader of planet purple.
Floor – Brown struggles with consistency. His three point shooting is streaky and sub par. He shows flashes of brilliance that leave people scratching their heads as to why he completely disappears at other times or plays his way out of games.

Hill
Ceiling – Grant being Grant.
Floor – At some point father time catches everyone, and when he does he shows no mercy. Can Hill stay healthy over the rigors of a compressed schedule? Will this finally be the year that he takes enough of a step back athletically that it reduces his effectiveness as a player?

Childress
Ceiling – Childress regains the form people remember from his Hawks days and puts the bad breaks and embarrassment of a fruitless year in his rearview mirror. A solid contribution from Childress could be one of the biggest keys to a successful season and help bring more stability to a team that will be undergoing major transformations sometime between now and the start of next season.
Floor – A repeat of last season and a petition to Sarver to invoke the amnesty provision.

It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.

by Jim Coughenour on Dec 19, 2011 11:11 AM MST reply actions   2 recs

These depend a lot on usage

For instance, for Dudley to achieve his “ceiling” would require that he was called upon to create offense. Do I want that? Hell no. The TEAM is better with Dudley being a 3-point shooter while turning his opponent into a low% volume shooter.

Brown and Hill’s ceilings are entirely dependent on our ability to rebound and get into the open floor, where they are threats. They go as our transition game goes. The floor is that they’re called upon to create from the top of the key, and we get low% offense from them.

I’d like to see us run offense through Chilly on the post or wing when Nash is out of the game.

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Dec 19, 2011 5:29 PM MST up reply actions  

This...

bq.I’d like to see us run offense through Chilly on the post or wing when Nash is out of the game

Is probably something I want to see drunk….

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 5:31 PM MST up reply actions  

Block quote fail...

I hate technology…I am going to drink now….

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 5:32 PM MST up reply actions  

Block quote fail…

Just highlight and click the button.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 10:04 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah...

but I am still going to drink…

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 10:06 PM MST up reply actions  

I’d like to see us run offense through Chilly on the post or wing when Nash is out of the game

Me too – High post or initiating the P’n’Roll might work. I’d also like us to get JChioll free on backscreens. He’s like a Ninja sneaking in behind the D for easy layups.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 5:40 PM MST up reply actions  

Chilly on back screens and o-boards: yes

Chilly running the offense? Hell no.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 5:43 PM MST up reply actions  

What does "Running the offence" mean?

“Running the offence” is a broad, kinda useless term. What you want is to put players in their best positions to be effective, and take away tasks they can’t manage.

Utilising the skills a player has, and not making them do what the can’t, is the key to the NBA. Aaron Brooks, for example, would have been ideal if all he did was bring the ball up, throw it to Diaw and go stand in a corner and shoot threes.

Consider these scenarios for JChill:

1. Someone brings the ball up, first pass goes to JChill coming off a short screen about 15 feet from the basket, his job is to create something.

2. Someone brings the ball up, first pass goes to JChill in the high post, run cutters at the rim.

Those are things JChill can do. Standing in a corner waiting to shoot a three? Not so much.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 6:01 PM MST up reply actions  

1. Someone brings the ball up, first pass goes to JChill coming off a short screen about 15 feet from the basket, his job is to create something.

2. Someone brings the ball up, first pass goes to JChill in the high post, run cutters at the rim.

I don’t see either of these happening. Are you confusing Chill with Diaw? (I know you’re not, so please don’t waste time saying so. I’m making a point that you need a passer/creator there. Chill is a finisher/garbage guy. That’s it.)

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 8:28 PM MST up reply actions  

No disrespect to Suns FA pickups,

but I thought Suns were quick to sign mediocrity and went low risk. The result is that there is no go to scorer or one on one playmaker.

I would have liked the Suns to make an attempt to acquire an established scorer like Nick Young or Marcus Thornton at SG. Even Corey Brewer and Rudy Fernandez were traded for virtually nothing (1 2nd rounder). All reasonable contracts.

The 2nd unit will have to be a defensive force because I don’t see how they are going to get buckets.

by oLLiE Boombayay on Dec 19, 2011 2:26 PM MST reply actions  

For once, I liked it and actually agree with what the FO is doing. Our “splashes” in the past have not worked at all. I like them taking low-risk guys that can play defense and might really gel and just leaving our flexibility open for next year when the real work begins. Great job by the FO, I think. I am looking forward to a great year, being better than last year, and sneaking into the playoffs, if healthy.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 2:30 PM MST up reply actions  

Given what the Suns had to work with and who was available this year, I think the Suns did really well. There was really no one out there this year worth over paying for and paying for long term. We would have had to overpay for Young and Thorton and even then the odds of getting them would have been low.

As far as Brewer and Rudy go, there’s no reason to think they’ll be any better than Brown this year and that’s coming from a guy that loves Rudy.

The Suns did well this offseason.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 2:48 PM MST up reply actions  

Young just signed a one year deal to stay with the Wizards.

Seems low risk for me. Thornton is averaging 7.5mil on his deal and the Kings are moving Tyreke Evans to SG so basically Thornton is a backup.

Brewer plays better D then Brown and Rudy is a better shooter and ball handler. I hope Brown surprises me with better 3 pt. shooting and ball handling then I have seen from him. i’m sure he’ll get his fair share of dunks, but the Suns need more.

by oLLiE Boombayay on Dec 19, 2011 2:54 PM MST up reply actions  

Let me just explain how Nick Young was an impossibility for the Suns.

The only reason Young signed his one-year offer is because he was restricted free agent. Wizards had his rights, and could match any offer. They told everyone they’d match, and didn’t want to meet Young’s asking price. So he didn’t get a big contract from anyone.

The Suns only had $5 mill/yr available to them to offer anyone (over-cap MLE). Wizards would have matched that offer in a second, if Young even bothered to tether himself to a long-term below-market offer. He wants 10+ mil a year. Suns cannot offer that this season, thanks to wild spending by the owner in prior years.

NEXT summer is different. Suns have all the money in the world to spend (well 30+ mil anyway). And then Young will be a UFA. If the Suns really want him then, they could have him.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 5:35 PM MST up reply actions  

Look what the Knicks had to work with

and they got Chandler and Davis.

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 19, 2011 4:00 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm pretty sure they're a bigger market

Our FO isn’t trying to win or rebuild now anyway. Their plan is to win or rebuild next year. It just depends on whether Nash wants to stay and if we can sign someone really good.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 4:38 PM MST up reply actions  

props on Chandler, for sure.

LOLZ at Davis being a good pickup.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 5:36 PM MST up reply actions  

why am I not surprised with this comment?

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 5:44 PM MST up reply actions  

if he is just 75% of what he was

its still a good pickup. He’s way better than toney douglas and mike bibby. its a low risk signing, any way you look at it, its a good signing.

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 6:05 PM MST up reply actions  

Sure. My argument wasn't about the signing

Veterans minimum you might as well get someone with Davis’ pedigree. Unfortunately he’s been hot garbage since 2007-2008.

No longer trying to light Vince Carter on fire.

by Scott Howard on Dec 19, 2011 6:05 PM MST up reply actions  

He never bothered to keep himself in shape

And it caught up to him.

Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo

by East Bay Ray on Dec 19, 2011 6:08 PM MST up reply actions  

if he was to get back in shape

it would be for this knicks team. it’ll be interesting to see how he does there

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 6:14 PM MST up reply actions  

Unfortunately

you typically already want to be in shape, not get picked up by a team you like and then go “hey I think I will get in shape now!”

So his to do list would be, get healthy, get in shape, and learn to function in an entirely new system with brand new faces. Should be cake!

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 6:16 PM MST up reply actions  

d'antoni's system is complicated?

its run and gun baby! just wait, by midseason Baron will be throwin a million oops to Amare and Chandler!

he’ll be ready, baron is a winner

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 6:24 PM MST up reply actions  

ask the Hornets, Clippers and Cavs if that’s true

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 8:30 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

And the Hornets shipped him away after clashes with his head coach

Then, winning was so important to him that he opted out of his Warriors contract (he had clashes with coaches there, too) to sign with the Clippers.

Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo

by East Bay Ray on Dec 19, 2011 9:17 PM MST up reply actions  

because he wanted to play with elton brand

and the brand screwed him over and left.

he’s just a baller, i’d want him on my team

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 9:18 PM MST up reply actions  

True

Brand was a potential MVP candidate going into that season.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 9:20 PM MST up reply actions  

And then the Clippers gave up the pick which would end up being the #1 overall

For the privilege of getting rid of him. And then the Cavs gave him $27M to get rid of him.

Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo

by East Bay Ray on Dec 19, 2011 9:21 PM MST up reply actions  

but he completely quit on the Clippers and Cavs

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by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 9:21 PM MST up reply actions  

he's definitely high maintenance

but that dude can play! if he’s on a good team, he’ll play.

think about his situation though, he really got screwed over. its tough to keep your energy up when you’ve had as much bad luck as he has had

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 9:29 PM MST up reply actions  

he was being paid a TON of MONEY to play hard. There is no excuse for dogging his team. We have to agree to disagree on that one. Davis CHOSE the Clippers, then dogged them.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 9:31 PM MST up reply actions  

i agree with you

he was a total douche. but he can still play. If you put him on a good team, he’ll play.

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 9:34 PM MST up reply actions  

Bad luck?

Every team he’s left has been in an ugly way. The common denominator? Baron Davis. It’s not just a series of coincidences.

Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo

by East Bay Ray on Dec 19, 2011 9:32 PM MST up reply actions  

Absolutely

I loved Baron Davis in his younger years but the dude is a headcase.

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 9:35 PM MST up reply actions  

he's a jerk

but he’s like randy moss, in the right situation, he can thrive. But it will always end ugly lol

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 9:36 PM MST up reply actions  

Hahaha I like that comparison

Good ol’ Randy!

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 9:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Cavs fans apparently disagree with that statement.

He played hard for them.

http://www.fearthesword.com/2011/12/14/2637064/baron-davis-waived-by-cavaliers-amnesty-clause

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 10:09 PM MST up reply actions  

Has he been that bad?

He’s been on terrible teams, and probably over paid, but value is relative to pay. I figure he’s been at worst a midrange PG.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 6:08 PM MST up reply actions  

he was right around average last year

http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids=42 – he was better at scoring and assists, but shot poorly and, lets be real, was disinterested in defence a fair bit.

But if he can be average in NYC, can improve his commitment on D (which playing for a playoff bubble team he should), he can be about average, maybe a smidge better. That’s gold for the minimum. Gold. Jerry. I imagine we’d take a minimum, average SG at this point willingly.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 6:26 PM MST up reply actions  

At the price they got him for...

Veteran’s minimum, they really coulnd’t lose..What else was out there for that price..?

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 5:41 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 19, 2011 5:42 PM MST up reply actions  

if he's healthy

watch out for NY. that team will be sick

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 5:44 PM MST up reply actions  

Looks at the Knicks PG depth chart

I think it was a good signing.

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Dec 19, 2011 6:31 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Better then last year without a doubt.

When I see playoff teams making serious moves for a title run it just disappoints me that the Suns FO didn’t do the same in what is most likely Steve Nash’s last one as a Sun. I am just as down on these moves as I am when they signed Hedo and Warrick. Why not make a play for a title run this year when anything can happen? The last time we had a shortened season the Spurs joined the ranks of the NBA elite and never looked back.

Losing Aaron Brooks was simply unfortunate timing and I don’t blame them for scrambling for a backup PG. They are still short a long range shooter and we have nobody other then Nash that can make a move off the dribble.

by oLLiE Boombayay on Dec 19, 2011 2:49 PM MST reply actions  

Next year may be the year to make that one last shot and re-sign Steve with a couple of other really good players. This year wouldn’t have been the time to do it. Pistons learned that a couple seasons ago with Villanueva and company. Of course their moves this off season don’t show they’ve learned much. Idiots.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 3:19 PM MST up reply actions  

whose moves? Detroit? if so, then I agree.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 5:37 PM MST up reply actions  

Yes, Detroit. I liked ours. Pistons, not so much.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 11:11 PM MST up reply actions  

im hoping a repeat of 05

We thought we were screwed when jj left,And while we thought raja would be a nice fit I dont think any of us saw his manning the 2 for years,im hoping shannon has that kind of impact.

"BALL"- Turkish poet Hedo Turkeyglue

by stevedavis_ on Dec 19, 2011 3:20 PM MST reply actions  

ESPN gave our offseason a D+

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 19, 2011 4:22 PM MST reply actions  

And we all know how much ESPN loves the Phoenix Suns!!

Thats pretty rough. I mean we were able to resign Hill, that was huge. We waived VC’s terrible contract. The whole Brooks thing shouldn’t count against the team since they had nothing to do with it. We pick up Brown for a reasonable one year deal, and a couple of decent back up PG’s to fight for PT in practice. This all leaves us open for the next off-season, and we still have a player we can amnesty if we choose to use it.

What more did they want us to do? A D +? Really?

Honestly, ESPN’s analysts can blow me.

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 4:39 PM MST up reply actions  

VC will kill the spirit and momentum of the Mavericks.

He’ll be the worst free agent signing since Jim McIlvaine.

The defenseless Huskies vs a Heisman Trophy winner. I smell shenanigans ahead!
A new Mike Brown era is about to begin.

by WaveOcean on Dec 19, 2011 4:40 PM MST up reply actions  

This is what they wrote:

Key additions: Grant Hill (re-signed), Shannon Brown (FA), Markieff Morris (draft), Ronnie Price (FA), Sebastian Telfair (FA)

Key subtractions: Vince Carter, Aaron Brooks, Gani Lawal

The sun continues to set in Phoenix. Steve Nash, the heart and soul of the Suns, is still plugging away at age 37, but the rest of his mates from the original run-and-gun Suns are long gone. The 39-year-old Grant Hill is back to provide support and big man Marcin Gortat was a very good pickup last season.

The rest of the team, however, is a mess.

Owner Robert Sarver made most of the quagmire himself. When he wasn’t ripping up a successful roster, he was alienating players this summer with his hardline stance during the lockout. Sarver has since come out claiming he was actually a dove — a reversal that only a politician could pull off with a straight face.

The Suns’ free-agent haul this year won’t do much to inspire Suns fans. It consisted of Shannon Brown, Ronnie Price and Sebastian Telfair. Of the three, Brown is a legit pickup, albeit a role player. Their draft pick, Markieff Morris, is big and can shoot, but the chances of him being a starter in the NBA, let alone a franchise savior, are slim.

At some point the Suns will get around to realizing they should have traded Nash two years ago when he still had enormous value. At this point, with Nash in the last year of his deal, they won’t get much. When he leaves, the team will likely be among the worst in the NBA.
GRADE: D+

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 19, 2011 4:59 PM MST up reply actions  

I hope teams like Houston and the Lakers got F’s then.

But knowing ESPN, the Lakers most likely still got an A+ somehow.

How about the Heat? They did nothing as well.

All I am saying is a D+ is a little harsh. Again I would like to know what they think we could have done instead. It seems like they are deducting points for not trading Nash seasons ago. I thought they were evaluating this off season?

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 5:04 PM MST up reply actions  

Well I am not sure exactly what to grade out...

It wasn’t catclysmic failure, but it sure wasn’t the Maimi’s haul of last year…I’d say just plain “C” for mediocre…nothing special….

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 5:08 PM MST up reply actions  

Lakers a D and Houston a C-

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 19, 2011 5:12 PM MST up reply actions  

see?

they are consistent

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 5:13 PM MST up reply actions  

Houston got a better grade than us? Wow…

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 5:15 PM MST up reply actions  

I know, right?

At what point will people stop blowing smoke up Daryl Morey’s ass? He has done ZILTCH with that team. The Suns have won more than the Rockets.

(FWIW: ESPN only says Morey is “unlucky” and was screwed by Stern. Ridiculous.)

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 5:39 PM MST up reply actions  

The Morey love kills me.

He’s so smart!

No longer trying to light Vince Carter on fire.

by Scott Howard on Dec 19, 2011 6:02 PM MST up reply actions  

Morey got a team to the playoffs that had its two best players, and ~$20 mil, sit out a season.

We had Shaq and Nash and Amar’e and missed the playoffs. I think Morey has done extremely well, given he hasn’t had a franchise player in like 6 years.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 6:05 PM MST up reply actions  

He might have a little something to do with not having a franchise player for 6 years.

Dude just keeps stockpiling young decent pieces with the thought that it’s going to turn into something bigger….it’s yet to do that.

No longer trying to light Vince Carter on fire.

by Scott Howard on Dec 19, 2011 6:07 PM MST up reply actions  

lol. You make your own breaks as GM for 6 seasons.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 8:31 PM MST up reply actions  

Which he did, no?

2005-06 was the last time they were under .500 – pretty impressive when their best player was Chuck Hayes.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 8:34 PM MST up reply actions  

their best player since then has been Chuck Hayes? You seriously believe that?

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 8:38 PM MST up reply actions  

No

But your reaction just goes to show how he is viewed – and he started almost all those years and was certainly one of their better players.

Incredible to think a team that started the Chuckster 63 and 82 games was 85-79 the last two years, no? There roster last year was… ordinary and they were better than us!

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 8:50 PM MST up reply actions  

you mean the roster they tried to trade the Hornets for the right to be a part of the Gasol/Paul swap? So you agree with Stern then, when he vetoed that deal?

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 9:12 PM MST up reply actions  

No

Because they got Odom as well.

I think that was the better trade – Martin, Scola and Odom > Kaman, Gordon and Aminu.

That trade was so bad for LA – it was an all-in on getting D12.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 9:16 PM MST up reply actions  

I don’t understand this. You’d trade away a superstar in his prime (in a league that demands superstars to have a chance to win big) for a bunch of 3rd-to-6th-best—guy-on-a-good-team players?

You really ARE a Suns fan!

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 9:19 PM MST up reply actions  

Odom and Scola are both in their 30's too.

Not the kind of guys I’d want to rebuild around, but our current team could sure use one of them.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 9:40 PM MST up reply actions  

No, I would NEVER trade Paul - EVER

But I disagree that the LA trade was the worse of the two, which was your question, no? I disagree that Stern should have vetoed one and not the other – both or neither really.

NEVER trade a superstar. NEVER EVER EVER. That should be NBA GM mantra numero uno.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 9:50 PM MST up reply actions  

The LAL trade made them better now, but the LAC trade put them in a better situation moving forward.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 10:15 PM MST up reply actions  

yao, t-mac, artest on the same team

yao and t-mac got hurt. thats bad luck lol. then their trade for gasol got shot down…he’s done a good job anyway you look at it.

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 8:54 PM MST up reply actions  

Sure has

It is kind of like people want him to have played better cards than he was dealt. If we had lost Amar’e and Nash for those years, what would our record have been?

I can’t think of any trades he got burnt on, and I like the ones he takes risks on (TWill is a great example).

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 9:18 PM MST up reply actions  

How have TWill and Thabeet played, by the way?

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 9:20 PM MST up reply actions  

Thabeet....

Ew……

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 9:25 PM MST up reply actions  

give it some time

t-will is too athletic to not have some value. and they didn’t give up much to get him.

and thabeet…well that is looking pretty bad haha

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 9:27 PM MST up reply actions  

What'd they cost?

Thabeet: Shane Battier (who Miami now has) and Ish Smith, PLUS, Houston got Memphis 1st rounder. Who we scoring that one to? Is that a loss for Houston or a win? I vote win (they still have 1st rounder).

TWill Cost: Houston’s lottery-protected first round pick in 2012. No score draw?

Also, New York trades a 2012 first round pick (top-5 protected from 2012-2015) to Houston, so they have a few.

I find it hard to be tough on a GM that takes risks, risks he knows are risks, and then get mad when he strikes out.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 9:58 PM MST up reply actions  

They didn't trade for Thabeet

they just took on his contract in excahnge for a draft pick.

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Dec 20, 2011 9:59 PM MST up reply actions  

isn’t that actually a trade? I don’t understand…

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 21, 2011 7:39 AM MST up reply actions  

No Alex. Don’t you see? They didn’t trade Thabeet for a draft pick. They exchanged them! More like a swap or maybe a transfer.

BAMF goes HAM.

by brian13 on Dec 21, 2011 10:09 AM MST up reply actions  

or a barter

Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."

by rsavaj on Dec 21, 2011 10:44 AM MST up reply actions  

I think he was just changing the emphasis. They received him in a trade, they didn’t go out and make a trade with the intent of bringing him in. He was just a throw in. Or something like that.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

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I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 21, 2011 9:18 PM MST up reply actions  

Well to be fair

He had Yao’s contract (who wanted that?) and McGrady’s. You can quibble with the concept that stockpiling players is a good idea, but if he had got that trade through, he’d have got Gasol, he would have been in a good spot.

Whatever you say, I’d love to support a team that every year made a playoff push, played hard and found quality guys in the rough.

The alternative is to be the Clippers, or Sacramento, and hope you draft your way out of the quagmire.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 6:14 PM MST up reply actions  

Well, the Gasol trade would have been big for them

Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."

by rsavaj on Dec 19, 2011 6:34 PM MST up reply actions  

so would the Garnett trade for the Suns. Coulda shoulda woulda.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 8:31 PM MST up reply actions  

Except we stuffed that up all by our lonesome

Hard to blame Morey for getting a deal done, and then having the LEAGUE’s OWNERS overturn it.

If that had happened to us, my god this site’s server would have melted down from the 4597 comments of abnger we wpild have collectively mustered!

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 8:36 PM MST up reply actions  

They're not comparable

All three teams agreed to the Gasol trade. The league shot that trade down.

That’s not what happened with the “potential” Garnett trade.

Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."

by rsavaj on Dec 20, 2011 6:36 PM MST up reply actions  

Vince Carter and Gani Lawal are key subtractions? Lawal played two minutes last year! Chad Ford did this team grades, right? That guy is awful. He tried spreading rumors two years ago that tension was building in the Suns’ locker room.

And doesn’t he realize if we trade Nash two years ago we miss out on that magical run to the WCF? I’ll take that trip to the WCF over anything we could have gotten for Nash back then.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 5:06 PM MST up reply actions   4 recs

why do you think this is so crazy?

whoever wrote this is exactly right!

what have they done to plan for the future? and please don’t say open up cap space…we aren’t getting any marquee free agents! so that cap space is pretty pointless.

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 5:07 PM MST up reply actions  

Exactly right?

Care to explain how Lawal is a key subtraction?

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 5:09 PM MST up reply actions  

why does that matter?

lol that is not a major part of the article

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 5:10 PM MST up reply actions  

It just goes to show how little research they do.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 5:11 PM MST up reply actions  

Because he had potential, which the Spurs saw when they picked him up.

Maybe Lawal is a key subtraction on the Suns.

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 19, 2011 5:18 PM MST up reply actions  

You could say every player any team releases “as potential.”

The Lawal release is a good example of a lose, lose with ESPN. If we kept him he’s added to the “worthless” list of players we apparently have. We release him and we are stupid for doing so.

The Suns appear to have released him because they didn’t want to start a logjam at the 4, and it appears they actually want to give Moris some consistent minutes if he proves up to the job.

Lawal is a player we never even saw play as fans. The FO, however, saw him in practice. Yes he was starting to shine across the sea, but that does not mean he’s instantly going to be able to convert that to being a great NBA player.

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 5:43 PM MST up reply actions  

The Spurs picked up Lawal? Wow, that sucks.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 11:15 PM MST up reply actions  

I do think he has potential and he could end up a solid role player, regardless, I don’t think someone can be seen as a key subtraction if they didn’t play a key role to begin with.

However, I will consider Carter as a key subtraction in a positive way.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 11:33 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

He's the most key subctraction.

Without his contributions against Detroit on New Years eve….well who the fuck knows how the season would have turned out.

No longer trying to light Vince Carter on fire.

by Scott Howard on Dec 19, 2011 6:09 PM MST up reply actions   2 recs

I wish I could watch those two minutes over and over again.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 8:47 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Also...

Apparently to ESPN all the Suns have on their team is Nash, Hill and Gortat, and “The rest of the team, however, is a mess.”

So other teams would just hate to have players like Frye, Dudley, Childress, Lopez. What a “mess” of players those guys are. Fans of other NBA teams would just hate to have our current roster as their team.

ESPN has convinced me in their infinite wisdom, we might as well just blow the team up quick right now, tonight! Much better than going into the season with this mess of players! Last place in the NBA here we come!!

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 5:10 PM MST up reply actions  

yes!

we should blow this up right now! keep lopez, gortat, frye, and morris and get rid of everyone else!

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 5:11 PM MST up reply actions  

Sorry if the sarcasm didn’t show through on that comment… LOL

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 5:38 PM MST up reply actions  

haha i saw your sarcasm

i just don’t get why you guys don’t want to just rebuild right now. we aren’t going anywhere, we are just wasting time

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 5:41 PM MST up reply actions  

Because who wants to watch a team suck?

The NBA is the only sport where fans WANT their team to suck. Can;’t we just wait a year to suck? Are you in a hurry to not care and stop watching?

Actually, I got a busy year of work ahead, and the games are on at midday in Oz, so maybe sucking now would be a huge help to me!

SUCK NOW, SUCK NOW!

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 5:44 PM MST up reply actions  

we ARE going to suck!

haha we just won’t suck enough! there is nothing more frustrating than watching a team with no direction, and thats what we are right now.

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 5:46 PM MST up reply actions  

No Direction?

What are you basing any of this off of? We have not even played a pre-season game yet.

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 5:49 PM MST up reply actions  

we aren't aiming toward anything.

except to be a “bleh” team. we have no plan (not one that will work anyway). We will have a lot of cap space next year, but who will we spend it on? who is worth it? more importantly, who would come here?

we are basically going for a 30-36 record this year, this season is just a waste. what are we accomplishing by doing this?

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 5:52 PM MST up reply actions  

Might as well go watch football, hockey, or baseball then man. Obviously this is a waste of your time!

If the team ends up doing better than your opinion of them though, hold fast to your beliefs! Don’t be tempted to jump on the wagon! The gloom and doom train is a lot of fun, enjoy it!

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 6:00 PM MST up reply actions  

its not haha

i will enjoy watching gortat, shannon brown, and morris this season. i don’t mind watching a bad team, as long as i know we are aiming towards something. even if they aren’t, i’ll still watch them, because they are my team!

i just want us to speed up the process of rebuilding!

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 6:10 PM MST up reply actions  

I guess I am trying to say we are aiming towards something. Enjoy this while it lasts instead of wanting to blow it up. We have Steve Nash and Grant fucking Hill. This could be the last season they play the game.

After this season we have cap space to try and make moves, and then we can really start sucking and piling up the draft picks. Your dreams will come true sir.

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 6:20 PM MST up reply actions  

We got a plan

Wait a year. Why the hurry? We will be no better off trading Nash than letting him walk. At best, we could get an expiring contract and MAYBE a late 1st rounder. Realistically, out of all the contending teams, only Miami would want him, adn what can they offer?

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 6:03 PM MST up reply actions  

it doesn't matter what we get for him

just get rid of him. we can get our top 5 pick next year instead of top 12. that is worth getting rid of steve

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 6:08 PM MST up reply actions  

Sorry how is that better...

Than doing the same thing next year? And if what we get for Nash is shit contracts, how does that help?

A top 5 pick isn’t a strategy – it is called the lottery for a reason.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 6:16 PM MST up reply actions  

i don't think we would trade nash for shit contracts...

which is better, a bunch of cap space and a top 5 pick?
or a bunch of cap space and a top 12 pick?

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 6:19 PM MST up reply actions  

If you are asking acomparison

What’s better: enjoying a playoff run, and then seeing what happens. Or sucking and seeing what happens.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 6:27 PM MST up reply actions  

we aren't making the playoffs

if we make the playoffs, we obviously made the right decision. but i think there is no chance of that happening.

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 6:29 PM MST up reply actions  

Playoff RUN

If we are in it until late march, it’ll be exciting. And if we miss and luck out and get a top 3 pick, it’ll be an even SMARTER move, no?

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 6:31 PM MST up reply actions  

Top 3 pick from a 9-12 seed?

No….

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 19, 2011 6:52 PM MST up reply actions  

Happens dude

Chicago. When you rely on luck, go all in :P

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 8:36 PM MST up reply actions  

we don’t actually know this answer until late Feb.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 8:33 PM MST up reply actions  

To many teams in the west got better, we have a very low chance on making the playoffs.

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 19, 2011 6:31 PM MST up reply actions  

not true

Spurs- not better, but older
Lakers – really not better, headed downhill
Thunder – same as last year
Memphis – similar, but no Battier
New Orleans – headed downhill
Mavs – maybe a wash, but no consistency
Houston – not better
utah – too young to be better, lost a couple of players
GS – not better
Kings – too young and badly run to be good
Clips – better, but gave up a lot to get Paul.
Denver – in China, lost other key players
Portland – Roy gone, Oden playing? No Miller, etc… headed downward from last year.
Wolves – Meh.

Grant Hill for prez.

by sun-arc on Dec 19, 2011 7:24 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

we are not better than many of those teams

maybe Sacramento, minny, new orleans and utah?

i could see the Kings and wolves being better than us though.

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 7:30 PM MST up reply actions  

Yes

We have established that your opinion of the team is very low for this season and that the other teams in the west are much better than us.

Maybe a fan post is in order with a detailed explanation as to how and why each NBA team is better than the Suns this season. You could then follow that up with what YOU would have done with the team this season to make them better this season, or the future.

Could be enlightening for all of us delusional posters/readers here : )

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 7:39 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

I didn’t say we were better than all of those teams, only that your statement isn’t true. Most teams in the west are headed downward, not getting better as you stated.

I think we are better than a lot of those teams. Not sure how many yet. But I’d think we are a low seed playoff team at this point.

Grant Hill for prez.

by sun-arc on Dec 19, 2011 9:48 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

And the Kings and Wolves being better than us is a joke, right? Not this year. No way.

Grant Hill for prez.

by sun-arc on Dec 19, 2011 9:49 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

The Kings and Wolves remind me of our our 03-04 Suns

So yeah, they won’t be better than us.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 9:49 PM MST up reply actions  

Not sure if I understand this...

What you’re saying is that the Clippers are the only team in the Western Conference that has improved from last year?

Every other team is the same or worse?

So the Suns stand to improve based on the fact that they haven’t significantly regressed because standing still is the same as advancing when everybody else takes a step backwards?

The more the skullduggery of Phoenix’s shrewd front office is revealed the more I like it! Genius! Let everyone else fall to ruins while Phoenix treads water! Haven’t they read the story of the cactus and the igloo!

The rest of the Western Conference fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is “Never get involved in a land war in Asia”, but only slightly less well known is “Never go in against a banker when death is on the line.”

Encomiums and exaltations.

It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.

by Jim Coughenour on Dec 19, 2011 11:40 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Clippers are better, but several other teams are worse.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 11:17 PM MST up reply actions  

and its also better

because we are starting the process sooner, which means we can finish sooner

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 6:20 PM MST up reply actions  

Since 1999

Six franchises one a title:
Boston Celtics
Dallas Mavericks
Detroit Pistons
Los Angeles Lakers
Miami Heat
San Antonio Spurs

“Rebuilding” rarely has great results, and the sucking, well, it sucks.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 6:30 PM MST up reply actions  

Funny thing is

That we were better than all those teams at one point, we were just missing 1 thing.

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 19, 2011 6:32 PM MST up reply actions  

Complicit help from the refs

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Dec 19, 2011 6:34 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

yeah... what??

Defense? A bench? Or a coach that played a bench? What was the one thing???

Grant Hill for prez.

by sun-arc on Dec 19, 2011 7:25 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

Height

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 19, 2011 7:42 PM MST up reply actions  

Injuries

We never ever had our best unit on the floor at once time, pretty much ever.

Losing Kurt Thomas in 2006-07 killed us the most. When he went down we lead the league in Differential and had a top 6 defence. Afterwards, our O was great but or D was mediocre.

Nash, Bell, Marion, Amar’e, Thomas, Barbosa, Diaw and James Jones coulda won it all. Without Thomas, our defence dropped from really good to average, and we had no one to guard Duncan.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 8:43 PM MST up reply actions  

I’m a bit confused here. I’m sure it’s because you were typing faster than you were thinking.

in 2005-06, Amare was out before game 1. With Thomas, the Suns led the league in differential (top 6 defense) through end of January when Thomas was lost for what ended up being the rest of the season. Suns couldn’t keep up with the Mavs.

In 2006-07, Amare and Thomas played all year. Thomas played Duncan in the playoffs, and Duncan averaged something like 28 and 12 (though he said Thomas played him better than most anyone that year).

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 8:47 PM MST up reply actions  

He made Duncan work

Now if it was Amar’e guarding him, Duncan would have averaged 38 and 22.

We lost the series because we didn’t have Amar’e for game 5 and only had him for about 20 minutes in game 3.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 8:51 PM MST up reply actions  

Injuries was the point :P

You’re right tho.

The other factor was that the years the Spurs were better/as good as us were our best years, and when we were better, we weren’t good enough to win.

Duncan was the one guy we just couldn’t top.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 8:55 PM MST up reply actions  

Rebounding guys Rebounding

Blind enough to believe on Pudgemonster.

by Lino Canaan on Dec 20, 2011 5:57 AM MST up reply actions  

i don't get your point.

a rebuilding effort does not always deliver a title obviously, but you have to start somewhere. you usually have to suck before you get good.

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 7:16 PM MST up reply actions  

hey thanks for generating a ton of comments on this article, forget! if nothing else, you are polarizing

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 8:35 PM MST up reply actions  

I actually think forget has taken the mantle

As the biggest doom and gloom-er on BSotS.

Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo

by East Bay Ray on Dec 19, 2011 8:37 PM MST up reply actions  

i definitely don't have as much optimism for this season as you guys

so i guess thats right, lol. but you guys are some of the only people that believe that the suns can make the playoffs this season. i just don’t see it happening.

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 8:58 PM MST up reply actions  

It wouldn't be the first time only people on here thought we could make the playoffs

I realize they were under completely different scenarios that can’t really be compared (since we still had Amare) but this team has been counted out many times before. We will have had an offseason with a few minor changes and there will be no mid season trades (big ones) that mess with our chemistry and cohesion that Nash often alludes to. We struggled last season partly due to the major overhaul to our roster, and then our guys having to adjust on the fly while trying to make the playoffs.

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 9:01 PM MST up reply actions  

I think they have a fair shot to.

We’ll just have to wait and see how it plays out. For you to say definitively that we’ll suck, I don’t understand that. They finished 6 games out of the final playoff spot last year and there are a few areas we can point to that should be improved this season, one of the biggest being that we’re not likely to have a huge midseason trade throwing everything into chaos.

Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo

by East Bay Ray on Dec 19, 2011 9:07 PM MST up reply actions  

I've been thinking about this, our competition

The locks: 5 teams that will likely make the playoffs
Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, Thunder, Clippers

The outs: 5 teams that will likely miss the playoffs
Jazz, T-Wolves, Kings, Hornets, Warriors

The maybes: 5 playoff caliber teams competing for 3 spots
Suns, Grizzlies, Rockets, Nuggets, Blazers

It can go either way with that group.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 9:25 PM MST up reply actions  

agreed

and out of the maybe’s, I think we’ll be better than the Rockets, Nuggests and possibly the Blazers, depending on whether they go Chernobyl again, or just can’t do it for another year, particularly without Roy.

So, if your 5 locks plus the Grizz make it, we’d be #7.

Grant Hill for prez.

by sun-arc on Dec 19, 2011 9:55 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

I think Memphis is in the top 6, and Portland is still probably ahead of us. I thunk it will be us, HOU, DEN, and possibly even UTA battling it out for that last spot. I’d give us as good a shot as any of those teams to make it.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 10:26 PM MST up reply actions  

I don't get all the hype for the Grizzlies

They’re a mediocre team that upset the Spurs in 6 games. I’m confident we could have done the same had we made it. It’s why I believe they’re in the same group as we are.

I mean all 5 of those teams are really close in terms of talent, which is why it’ll be chemistry and health that will determine who makes it. Two of them will miss out and yeah, because of the many unknowns of our team we’d be the more likely of the 5 to miss, but overall I think we have just as good as a shot at the Grizz do. We just have to play our cards right and hope for some miracle (Like an improved bench).

My bet is that Jazz are more likely to miss the playoffs than make it. They don’t have a good backcourt, their frontcourt is jammed and they lost AK-47 for Josh Howard. They’re not a bottom feeder, they can put up a fight, but they’re just not a playoff team either and I don’t see the potential there to become one like I do with the Suns and Rockets.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 20, 2011 12:37 PM MST up reply actions  

Utah's frontcourt is really good though.

favors was beastin in their last game. josh howard could be great for them.

Memphis: Zach Randolph + Gasol>>>gortat and frye

rudy gay>Grant hill

oj mayo + tony allen>>jared dudley and childress/shannon brown

their point guard play is pretty good too. i don’t get how you think we have just as good of a shot as them.

by forget on Dec 20, 2011 1:10 PM MST up reply actions  

Wow, I'm agreeing with forget.

MEM has a very good team. Like he said, they have super solid frontcourt with Z-Bo and Gasol. Losing Arthur for the season really hurts their depth though. Rudy Gay is a 20 ppg scorer on the wing, and if they can fit him in relatively seamlessly they could do some good things. They have Tony Allen and O.J. Mayo on the wings, and perhaps Xavier Henry can put it together this year. Conley has turned into a very solid PG. But it’s that big man duo that I think pushes them solidly ahead of us.

As for Utah, he’s right about the frontcourt. And Devin Harris should be better now that he’s had some time in the system. Their season hangs on the growth of the wings. Miles, Hayward, Howard, Bell, and Burks need to step up. I certainly wouldn’t bet on them, but the talent is there.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

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by Omaha Sun on Dec 20, 2011 1:45 PM MST up reply actions  

I've missed these conversations

That go on for so long that the dialogue boxes get this narrow.

Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo

by East Bay Ray on Dec 20, 2011 2:34 PM MST up reply actions  

We could get them to attenuate

even further if we could reduce the font size.

It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.

by Jim Coughenour on Dec 20, 2011 3:56 PM MST up reply actions  

Indeed

I just had to reply to add to this tiny box over here.

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 20, 2011 4:37 PM MST up reply actions  

Look how smashed my sig is.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

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by Omaha Sun on Dec 20, 2011 6:07 PM MST up reply actions  

Exactly

I am not going to 100% state we are making the playoffs but I 100% believe we have a legitimate shot. That trade really screwed with our mojo mid-season and we lost some games we could have easily won had that trade been made before the season.

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 9:26 PM MST up reply actions  

Don't forget about Frye's injury

That was the nail in the coffin.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 9:28 PM MST up reply actions  

wait, Frye’s injury was because of Sarver’s terrible ownership, right? And Nash’s pelvic shearing – that was Sarver too. Damn Sarver!

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 9:29 PM MST up reply actions  

The shearing is definitely Sarver. But the Frye thing is ALL Durant.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

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by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 10:27 PM MST up reply actions  

Curse that Sarver!!!!

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 11:00 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

6 games out is quite a bit

our roster just isn’t good. and what if nash or hill get hurt? then we are the worst team in the league.

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 9:33 PM MST up reply actions  

Nash’s injury had a lot to do with it. He wasn’t so good at the end of the year. Even when Frye came back we couldn’t win games.

Grant Hill for prez.

by sun-arc on Dec 19, 2011 9:57 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

The combination of Frye getting hurt (he missed games and wasn’t the same when he came back) and Nash getting hurt at the time when we needed him most (w/o Frye) put an end to our run. Before that, we weren’t talking about if we’d make the playoffs, but how high of a seed we could earn.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

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by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 10:29 PM MST up reply actions  

Nash, yes.

Grant, we could probably survive and still be competitive. But losing your best player will do that to a lot of teams.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

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by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 10:30 PM MST up reply actions  

It’s not that much when you consider the midseason trade and the injuries to Nash and Frye. There’s absolutely no reason to think this team can’t compete for a playoff spot this year.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 11:00 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

But WHEN

If the goal was to win a title, if you didn’t think you were good enough, should you suck permanently? Is THAT the strategy the Clippers have used? Suddenly, it all makes sense :P

Seriously, sometimes, you have to accept that the best you can do is be average. We’ve got plenty of time to suck. Sit back, relax, and enjoy one last glorious Nash-led team. I can’t wait!

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 8:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Why not?

Sacramento then? Milwaukee? Toronto Raptors? Lots of teams have sucked for many years in a row.

Who here wants/is in a hurry to get that? Sure if we rebuild well it will be better, but the teams that have won in recent years (Dallas, Lakers, Boston, Spurs) have kept good players, they didn’t suck arse intentionally.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 8:57 PM MST up reply actions  

Eventually, we will need to rebuild.

There wouldn’t be any harm by starting it now. Besides, the FO has already done enough harm. Not only did they trade Nash’s co stars one by one, but they traded our draft picks.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 9:08 PM MST up reply actions  

i didn't understand that first part at all

why would we suck permanently? the options are: suck now and win in 2-3 years, or kind of suck now, then suck for 2-3 years after that.

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 9:03 PM MST up reply actions  

Sorry but how do you know?

Name a team that would ahs sucked for 2-3 years? Minny, Sacramento, Clippers, Toronto. All these teams had top 5 picks, and all suck.

The choices are be what we are now and hope, or suck now and hope. I can’t see how the latter is better.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 9:32 PM MST up reply actions  

even if it takes 5 years

if we go all in now, we can get this thing fixed faster.

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 9:37 PM MST up reply actions  

I agree. You just don’t know. I was in the camp of “bomb the year”, but now I’m not so sure after reading all the articles and commentary about the “if’s and buts”. Now I’d say I agree wtih MM : just try to be as good as you can each year with an eye to the future. And that is what we are doing. We’ll see what we can do next summer, and make the best choices we can when we are there. Maybe we land another Nash type player… maybe not. We’ll see. But the draft is very much a lottery, and you just never know.

Grant Hill for prez.

by sun-arc on Dec 19, 2011 10:01 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

How do you know?

It isn’t a guarantee, and depends upon luck. There simply isn’t a number of years you suck and then automatically get back – ask Sacramento.

Sucking sooner is no guarantee we get back sooner – it simply isn’t, and history shows that over and over in the NBA. Just ask Minnesota (how long since they traded Garnett?)

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 10:01 PM MST up reply actions  

sacramento had a streak of 8 straight playoff appearances.

and right now they have tyreke evans and demarcus cousins as the core of their team. they are doing fine.

and the timberwolves just drafted horribly. there is no excuse for that.

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 10:13 PM MST up reply actions  

Doing fine?

Sacramento hasn’t had a winning season, or playoff berth, in FIVE YEARS. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAC.

Seriously, go look. If you think that is the best plan, suck for FIVE YEARS (and last year was WORSE than the year before), then yes, we have SERIOUSLY different opinions on what is fun to watch.

by MMotherwell on Dec 20, 2011 12:19 AM MST up reply actions  

who has a better future?

sacramento? (evans, cousins)

or us? (gortat, frye)

by forget on Dec 20, 2011 12:22 AM MST up reply actions  

Who knows?

What do you mean by “better future”?

Do you mean who will win more games in the next 5 years? Or who has more talent that will be in the league in five years?

No one knows what any other team will be like in five years,. Ask Miami, Boston and Cleveland of two years ago.

by MMotherwell on Dec 20, 2011 12:27 AM MST up reply actions  

i know

i rather have tyreke evans and demarcus cousins for the next few years than gortat and frye. i think most people would agree with me on that lol.

by forget on Dec 20, 2011 12:34 AM MST up reply actions  

I do not want to have to deal with Cousins.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

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by Omaha Sun on Dec 20, 2011 1:40 PM MST up reply actions  

right now, maybe not

but when he is averaging 20 points and 10 boards with 5 assists, you might change your mind

by forget on Dec 20, 2011 5:21 PM MST up reply actions  

I’ll certainly take our future over sacramento’s regardless of who we have and who they have.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 20, 2011 7:45 AM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

sometimes rebuilding takes time

especially when you’re in a tough place to attract free agents. they’re in a good spot right now.

by forget on Dec 20, 2011 12:24 AM MST up reply actions  

Really?

I though the Malloufs wanted to move them – PERMANENTLY wanted to move them.

If your example of a “plan” is Sacramento – well, I’m sorry but that is not a future I am looking forward to.

by MMotherwell on Dec 20, 2011 12:28 AM MST up reply actions  

there are better ways to go about it

of course. you have to get a little lucky. but you have to do it sometime! every team has to go through it. why not start now, instead of having a 30-36 season this year? that doesn’t accomplish anything!

whats the difference between 30-36 and 20-46? not much, except where you draft!

by forget on Dec 20, 2011 12:33 AM MST up reply actions  

and by "good spot"

i meant in regards to their talent…not their location

by forget on Dec 20, 2011 12:40 AM MST up reply actions  

i guess we just have different opinions on what is fun to watch lol

you like steve nash leading us to 26-30 wins this year. i would like us to win 18-23 games this year while getting a better look at the talent we have. and i would like some fresh talent on this team next season (in the form of a top 5 pick).

i just feel like this year in limbo is not helping us in building for the future

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 10:16 PM MST up reply actions  

Of course nash isn't helping us build for the future

But do you not spend any money so you have more in 5 years? Of course not.

Sacramento is what happens when you gut a team – five bad years. What’s the hurry?

by MMotherwell on Dec 20, 2011 12:20 AM MST up reply actions  

what do you mean?

your analogy doesn’t really make sense. if you lose in the NBA, you have a chance to get better through the draft. there is not really a “real-world” comparison that you could make regarding that

by forget on Dec 20, 2011 12:39 AM MST up reply actions  

you like steve nash leading us to 26-30 wins this year. i would like us to win 18-23 games this year

Hmmm.. 30 wins or 18 wins. Oooh you’re right! 18 wins sounds fun! Let’s do that one!!

BAMF goes HAM.

by brian13 on Dec 20, 2011 1:30 AM MST up reply actions  

sorry...this is ridiculous...

its spelled “won”…as in “I won a championship” not “one”…

"We never tried Amar'e, Nash, and a live Grizzly bear." -Scott Howard, January 18, 2010
"All they’re fighting for is to stay as obscenely rich as they are now, based on their ability to bounce a ball and throw it in a hole." East Bay Ray, October 10, 2011
"the players and owners are squabbling over how to divide the pie that WE BAKE FOR THEM." East Bay Ray, October 31, 2011

by N8lol on Dec 19, 2011 10:44 PM MST up reply actions  

I didn't want to be that guy...

But using the wrong homophone always bugs me for some reason.

I was born to be a copy editor.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

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by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 10:53 PM MST up reply actions  

LOL

Blind enough to believe on Pudgemonster.

by Lino Canaan on Dec 20, 2011 5:59 AM MST up reply actions  

Was that me?

I saw one of those, I wrote a different point with one, (one game? one season? Forget) then changed and missed it.

I can;t edit posts – can anywon else?

by MMotherwell on Dec 20, 2011 12:21 AM MST up reply actions  

Wait a year for what?

We aren’t going to get a “star” player through FA. So many teams next season have enough room to sign a max contract, and Westbrook, Love etc. will be locked up before then. What makes them want to come to the Suns, a team on the decline?

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 19, 2011 6:15 PM MST up reply actions  

I still don't get it

The difference between sucking now and next year is that we have one more year to enjoy Nash.

There is no Guarantee we draft a good guy next year. There is no certainly no L Magic Johnson or Lebron in this draft. Shaquille O’Neal is not the prize next year. Heck, Alonzo Mourning isn’t the prize. The prize is a chance to draft a player with massive potential, and lots of holes.

Waiting a year to suck, and enjoying watching 66 games of BBall where we are competitive and play an attractive style may not seem like much. But when if, as you say, we don’t get a good FA next year and we do suck, I’ll remind you that you wanted that, the disinterest in games, no thrill of the chance of making the playoffs, the depressingness of failure and waiting 12 months and hoping we get a good pick, I’ll remind you that you wanted that THIS year.

Me, I’m relishing the thought of another year of Nash, and I am going to savour each and every moment, so when we do suck (inevitably), I can remember what it was like to have an all-time great PG play for us.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 6:23 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm a Suns fan before I am a Nash fan

It’s in the best interest of the team’s future to rebuild.

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 19, 2011 6:25 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Best interest

Is to stay profitable because, and this is the thing no one is saying, new owners are likely to move the team somewhere bigger.

Say what you will about Sarver, but he hasn’t threatened to move the team. A Russian oligarch, OTOH, he might very well move the team somewhere more attractive.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 6:33 PM MST up reply actions  

Bigger?

As in San Diego? I think Sarver has thought of that at one point or another. He lives there too after all. Remember PHX is the 6th biggest city in the US.

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 19, 2011 6:34 PM MST up reply actions  

ya lol

the suns aren’t going anywhere. in 10-15 years, we might be one of the big market teams in the league. Phx is growing fast

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 7:18 PM MST up reply actions  

Population size * Average income / number of pro teams = Market share

The 6th largest city is a not really the issue. Sure, if you were in Australia (where our cities are hundreds of miles from each other), yes, but look at the list and NYC – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population – doesn’t count New Jersey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas is more accurate – and Phoenix drops to 14th.

http://wagesofwins.com/2011/10/31/could-your-city-give-a-sports-team-a-good-home/ is a good read on this, and Phoenix, with the Suns, Cardinals and Diamondbacks is a crowded market, and probably has one too many pro-teams.

If Sarver sells, are there many Phoenix natives who could/would buy? I am sure the city would throw tax incentives at whoever buys, but would a Russian Oligarch want to live in Phoenix?

Love him or hate him, Sarver has kept the team financially viable.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 8:32 PM MST up reply actions  

You guys are funny.

It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.

by Jim Coughenour on Dec 19, 2011 10:53 PM MST up reply actions  

Economics always crack me up too

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Dec 20, 2011 10:03 PM MST up reply actions  

30-36 is fun?

i want to see our young players grow! thats fun!

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 6:25 PM MST up reply actions  

Glad you agree with me

A 16-50 year with no one to develop would be boring.

But a 30 to 36 win season should be fascinating.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 6:40 PM MST up reply actions  

It's still depressing to watch a team try and try but never succeed.

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 19, 2011 6:42 PM MST up reply actions  

Completely agree with you, MM. I think the Suns FO has it right, and I love what they are doing.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 19, 2011 11:59 PM MST up reply actions  

I wish we had Blake Griffin

But we just don’t. can’t play a ball that isn;t bowled to you.

by MMotherwell on Dec 20, 2011 12:22 AM MST up reply actions  

That's Your Opinion

And you are entitled to it.

Honestly, if we blew the team up, and traded Nash right now, the entire Suns fan base would absolutely revolt. Sure it could pan out in the future, maybe, but we owe it to Nash to give it one more push this season. If it fails, then we start the rebuild process

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 5:47 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

It wasn't great, but it wasn't nearly that bad.

They down-graded us for keeping Steve, right?

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

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by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 4:39 PM MST up reply actions  

Did you guys want to keep Steve?

The defenseless Huskies vs a Heisman Trophy winner. I smell shenanigans ahead!
A new Mike Brown era is about to begin.

by WaveOcean on Dec 19, 2011 4:41 PM MST up reply actions  

On one poll, it was 50/50

Then a few days later it was like 80/20. The 80% were for keeping Steve.

We don’t know what to do. We don’t want to let go of Nash, but at the same time we kind of just want to rebuild since our FO doesn’t want to compete until next year. It’s been 8 months since we watched Nash play and I think a lot of people here just want to see him represent our Franchise again. Nothing wrong with that.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 4:48 PM MST up reply actions  

yeah, I’d trade Nash if there’s value in return.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 5:41 PM MST up reply actions  

^^

Only way I want him traded. Otherwise keep him here because Steve Nash is the Phoenix Suns.

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 8:54 PM MST up reply actions  

What's your price?

A few first rounders? Some young talent? I’m not sure what he’d get, and I can’t imagine a team that wants Nash that can afford him. I really can’t.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 8:59 PM MST up reply actions  

And that's why we're keeping him.

We can’t get equal value for him.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 9:07 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions   1 recs

I don't believe anyone who needs him has enough to give him

We need to get back a young player with potential and a good draft pick but that won’t happen. Anyone looking for Nash would (probably) be looking for a title.

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 9:28 PM MST up reply actions  

And be called Miami

That’s the market. Maybe the Lakers, but come on, f*^& that!

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 9:32 PM MST up reply actions  

I would question my own reality and sanity

If I ever saw Nash in a Lakers uniform. The thought alone makes you want to hurl.

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 9:33 PM MST up reply actions  

Couldn;t agree more

But they are about the only conteder-ish team that would want him.

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 10:02 PM MST up reply actions  

It would hurt but...

I am old enough to remember when Westphal got traded…time and alcohol heals all wounds…

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 10:03 PM MST up reply actions  

We had a mixed bag

A lot of us said only trade Steve if we were going to get something valuable to the team back in return.

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 4:51 PM MST up reply actions  

Hate to say it...

Steve is a lot more valuable to the us than anywhere else…Most other teams (potential trade parters) would want him pretty much as a quality back-up PG. Maybe I am wrong, but hey are simply not going to give us anything meaningful (or even fair value) for him so it’s best to keep him if all they are offering is a late first round pick and a free queso & cheese snack…

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 4:55 PM MST up reply actions  

Never Said I Wanted Him Traded

Just stating what was discussed in threads since he asked, and that was basically what we all kinda agreed on. If somehow a Nash trade got us a young stud, then pull the trigger. Obviously this isn’t going to happen for the exact reason you said, thus why he still is on the team. He’s far more valuable to us than any other team.

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 5:00 PM MST up reply actions  

I don’t think there’s a single team that would be after him to be a backup. With that said, we still wouldn’t get good value for him.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 5:08 PM MST up reply actions  

He's not going to start over quite a few guys...

Derrick Rose, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Stephen Curry, Rajon Rondo, Russell Westbrook, or Tony Parker…You also might want to toss John Wall’s name in there as well…I’d also have a had time seeing Brandon Jennings, Tyreke Evans or Jason Kidd get benched in favor of Nash

But a few of those teams need a quality PG leader off the bench…

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 5:14 PM MST up reply actions  

None of those teams that have a legit starting point guard would trade for Nash. It wouldn’t make any sense. Especially when a lot of those guys are going to be playing 35+ a game. No one is trading for Nash to have him play 15 minutes a game. Teams like New York, Miami, etc are the teams that may be interested in Nash and they have nothing to offer.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 8:50 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Completely agree with this

Using Nash as a backup is just a waste of his talents…. Teams with established PGs will not be interested in acquiring Nash.

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 8:56 PM MST up reply actions  

Hey the Clippers have Chris Paul and Baron Davis. Why not Nash too? Oh wait, they traded all their assets. Nevermind.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 9:15 PM MST up reply actions  

(Oops, meant Chauncey. Not Baron. Baron on the Clippers was SO last year.)

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 9:16 PM MST up reply actions  

I like that he's the Blue Baron now

instead of the Red Baron.

But I wonder how that affects his status as the unofficial spokesman of the frozen pizza empire?

It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.

by Jim Coughenour on Dec 19, 2011 10:57 PM MST up reply actions  

C'mon now...

give Nash his due. He was just barely below yet another 40,50,90 season- what would have been his 5th I think. He’s the only player that has had more than 2 seasons, and only one of 3 that has even had 2. And he makes everyone around him look like a star while being one of the 5-10 (depending on taste) most entertaining players in the league to watch.

He was better last year than Curry, Rondo, and Parker. And WAY better than Jennings, Evans, and Kidd. He was also considerably better than Wall, and schooled him when we played in their court. Wall will improve- but probably will not be better than Nash this year. But he’s one guy that will be better than Nash within 2 years. Rondo is very good- but not better than Nash overall. Not a maestro like Steve, nor making everyone around him considerably better.

The other guys I mention above would/should definitely be backing him up instead of the other way around.

Rose is an amazingly great freak. Williams is very good. Paul is the best point guard right now, period. And Westbrook is amazing too. I’ll give you those guys.

The Heat, Knicks, Mavs, Lakers, Pacers, etc, etc would LOVE to have him. And could be MUCH better contenders with him.

Grant Hill for prez.

by sun-arc on Dec 19, 2011 9:18 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

The ONLY drawback to Nash is his age

He still produces at an extremely high level when he is healthy. Anyone without a YOUNG star PG would want Nash to lead them.

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 9:30 PM MST up reply actions  

exactly.

Grant Hill for prez.

by sun-arc on Dec 19, 2011 10:02 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

I’d definitely start him over Parker, Jennings and Evans (though I might start Evans at the 2). I’d probably start him over Kidd and Rondo too. And I’d start Curry alongside him at the 2 also.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Dec 20, 2011 12:19 AM MST up reply actions  

Who would use him as a quality backup?

The man just led the league in assists last year…. I realize this is the most effective offensive system for him but he is much better than a backup PG.

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 8:55 PM MST up reply actions  

Exactly.

But even the the system favors him, you have to remember he did it with mediocre shooters and no go-to guy which makes it all that more impressive.

Unless Nash has a major drop off, he’s a starter in this league still.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 9:06 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Mhmm

There is a very short list of people who could produce the results we get with the roster we have had with Nash (post Amare)

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 9:31 PM MST up reply actions  

All the system is is just freedom for him to do what he wants 95% if not 100% of the time.

Porter took away that freedom in 08. Gentry gave it back. People think it’s pace, but pace actually has little impact. The Warriors played faster than any other team in 06-07 yet Baron Davis’s averages were about the same as they were the prior season under a different coach.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Dec 19, 2011 9:36 PM MST up reply actions  

Right

But with the overall talent we have, who the heck could keep us as competitive? CP3 and DWill? Maybe Derrick Rose as well.

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 9:39 PM MST up reply actions  

They will literally hire anyone.

The defenseless Huskies vs a Heisman Trophy winner. I smell shenanigans ahead!
A new Mike Brown era is about to begin.

by WaveOcean on Dec 19, 2011 4:40 PM MST up reply actions  

Call me crazy, but ...

I think we have some decent pieces. More importantly we may have the makings of some chemistry. A number of great people (Nash, Hill, Dudz) and one fewer a-hole (VC). We’re not as much of a camel as we were at the beginning of last year, when we had so many new faces, high priced guys out of position (Turk) etc. The West is generally weaker. The short pre-season shouldn’t affect our veteran-led group too much. Gentry has another year under his belt. Brown and Price could prove to be bargains. We’re bigger and more athletic. If we start well we could be just fine. Any team featuring Nash and Hill will be competitive and fun to watch. Bright side, anyone?

by Van2010 on Dec 19, 2011 5:10 PM MST reply actions  

completely agree

and share your optimism (even if we might be leaning a bit far into the bright side).

Grant Hill for prez.

by sun-arc on Dec 19, 2011 9:20 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

Totally off topic, but......

Taylor Griffin sighting on NBATV. He’s on the Bobcats preseason roster.

Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo

by East Bay Ray on Dec 19, 2011 5:56 PM MST reply actions  

LOL

I just was about to say that.

Quick, someone tell Scott his favorite player is getting some PT!

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 5:57 PM MST up reply actions  

Maybe...

He just glanced at some names and thought somehow it was Blake Griffin that was the FA? He might have been shown the list after binging on lots of booze as well…

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 6:14 PM MST up reply actions  

Question....

Is he on the Bobcats preseason roster on purpose? Or did he just show up and refuse to leave until they let him play? Or does MJ have a sweet heart deal with Blake Griffin???? CONSPIRACY.

Also Taylor Griffin is without a doubt the worst NBA player I’ve ever seen. And I mean that honestly.

No longer trying to light Vince Carter on fire.

by Scott Howard on Dec 19, 2011 6:03 PM MST up reply actions  

Worss than Pat Burke...?

Jon Koncak…just saying….

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 6:14 PM MST up reply actions  

Koncak?

Shaq’s back-up in ORL? He was on NBA TV earlier. Shaq vs. Hakeem. I <3 Hardwood Classics on NBA TV.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 10:43 PM MST up reply actions  

Taylor never made the Suns worse

because he never played.

I would think that an Eddie Curry type, who plays, gets the ball a lot, and does horrible things with it, would be worse.

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Dec 19, 2011 6:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Don't care if he made the Suns worse....

He’s the least talented person I’ve ever seen take an NBA floor.

No longer trying to light Vince Carter on fire.

by Scott Howard on Dec 19, 2011 10:37 PM MST up reply actions  

I wish Taylor Griffin still played for us just so I could read your comments about him on a regular basis.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 8:52 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

I Don't Know...

He played 11 minutes and had some impressive box score stats..

2 points – (off of free throws)
2 rebounds(offensive!)
1 assist
and… 2 fouls!!

I bet they sign him!

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 7:46 PM MST up reply actions  

yeah and...

did you see the Spurs picked up Gani Lawal? Yikes! If he works out for them, I’m going to be so angry we didn’t stick with him.

Grant Hill for prez.

by sun-arc on Dec 19, 2011 9:22 PM MST via mobile up reply actions  

and Taylor Griffin signed with Charlotte Bobcats. Damn them!

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Dec 19, 2011 9:23 PM MST up reply actions  

Wow...

The Lakers Clippers game Box score actually has “Metta World Peace” for the name and when they were just talking about him, it had “Metta World Peace” on the screen. This is going to take a while to get used to, but I don;t think I will ever be able to take the name seriously. Ron Artest is still a douche regardless his name.

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 19, 2011 9:03 PM MST reply actions  

haha

the announcer saying,’WORLD PEACE FOR THREE!" cracked me up lol

by forget on Dec 19, 2011 9:14 PM MST up reply actions  

I want to hear

“Metta World Peace with the flagrant foul”

by MMotherwell on Dec 19, 2011 9:33 PM MST up reply actions  

I am pretty sure you will hear that

It is Ron freaking Artest. Or should I say Metta World freaking Peace!

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 9:36 PM MST up reply actions  

Or "Peace wanting a piece of that heckler in the front row..."

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 9:59 PM MST up reply actions   3 recs

Oh this gets rec'd

No doubt!

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 10:05 PM MST up reply actions  

I thought it was SNQP making this comment until I read the name.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 10:45 PM MST up reply actions  

It jumps out at me every time I see it on the screen for the Lakers roster

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 9:32 PM MST up reply actions  

Wait this not a joke?

He actually change his name?

Soo, it turns out I was right!!! Kinda disappointed now..

by Aztiramtempe on Dec 19, 2011 9:49 PM MST up reply actions  

Yes, it’s real.

Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo

by East Bay Ray on Dec 19, 2011 9:53 PM MST up reply actions  

I am starting to wonder...

If Artest is playing crazy or really off his @#&!# rocker…

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 9:57 PM MST up reply actions  

His probably just in desperate

Need of attention.

Soo, it turns out I was right!!! Kinda disappointed now..

by Aztiramtempe on Dec 19, 2011 10:03 PM MST up reply actions  

He will get the attention...

of some men in white coats with a net and straightjacket if he keeps this up…

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 10:04 PM MST up reply actions  

Is that so...?

Then why is Don Nelson still wandering free terrorizing his neighbors with demented talk about putting a 5 guard line-up on the floor and and other convulted line-up suggestions..

Explain that one…

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 10:10 PM MST up reply actions  

Sorry...

Had a relapse….

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 10:12 PM MST up reply actions  

Damn Blockquote fail again...

I quitting for tonight and looking to pass out somewhere in my house where the wife won’t bother me…

STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!

by Daryl Ray on Dec 19, 2011 10:14 PM MST up reply actions  

I think his press conference after the last championship they won says it all

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 10:05 PM MST up reply actions  

Oh you are in for a surprise Az

If you are watching on Christmas I am sure you will catch some Metta World Peace in your day.

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 19, 2011 10:04 PM MST up reply actions  

Busy afternoon/evening here on the Bright side.

Over 200 new comments appeared between around 5 and 11.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 10:55 PM MST reply actions  

Gotta train hard.

6 days until the season starts.
First preseason game is tomorrow.
7 days until the Suns opener.
People need their basketball.
People needs their Brightside.

It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.

by Jim Coughenour on Dec 19, 2011 11:05 PM MST up reply actions  

It's awesome.

What time is the preseason game? I really want to watch it. I’ll need to find a stream, correct?

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 11:08 PM MST up reply actions  

10 pm eastern

Not sure about where to watch it…

That might be useful information for the gracious and perspicacious staff writer that does the pre-game write up to include…

It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.

by Jim Coughenour on Dec 19, 2011 11:15 PM MST up reply actions  

9 then.

I can definitely do that. Woohoo!

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 11:16 PM MST up reply actions  

It’ll be on radio in Phoenix though, correct?

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 11:34 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

if so whats the station ?

I should be able to pick it up on my sports radio app

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Dec 19, 2011 11:41 PM MST up reply actions  

620 KTAR I think.

I used to listen to the stream on NBA.com until I discovered online streams. Love me some Al McCoy.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 11:48 PM MST up reply actions  

nice

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Dec 19, 2011 11:55 PM MST up reply actions  

Al McCoy is a pimp in every sense of the word.

Except the part that glorifies abusing women and promotes prostitution.

It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.

by Jim Coughenour on Dec 19, 2011 11:55 PM MST up reply actions   3 recs

Al McCoy is the man! Even as he gets up there in age, he’s still great. Loved he and Cotton together.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 11:57 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

That's too little

We need more posts!

"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley

by Suns R Us on Dec 20, 2011 2:27 PM MST up reply actions  

Lakers are looking awful tonight

preseason or not its clear that the clippers are better. Lakers have no chemistry meanwhile the clippers look like theyve been playing together for years.
The road to the division titles will go through staples center this year but not for the purple and gold.

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Dec 19, 2011 11:11 PM MST reply actions  

i'm looking forward to some epic battles with the clips this year

if my memory serves me correctly, BAMF really got under Blake Griffin’s skin last year…

Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, and the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big ol' storm right square in the eye and he says, "Give me your best shot, pal. I can take it."

~Jack Burton, "Big Trouble in Little China"

by u_must_chill on Dec 19, 2011 11:15 PM MST up reply actions  

I don't know that I'm really looking forward

to getting smoked by the Clippers.

Not to cast a caliginous pall over the season, but the Suns are now firmly fixed in the Clippers rearview mirror.

It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.

by Jim Coughenour on Dec 19, 2011 11:23 PM MST up reply actions  

i don't think

it’s a foregone conclusion that we will get “smoked” by the clippers. is it possible that they’ll beat us when they play them? sure. but consider:

- their head coach is still vinny del negro.
- they now have the best point guard in the league, but he’s being backed up by a washed-up chauncey billups
- grant hill played as good a defense on blake griffin as anyone in the league last year
- the clips gave up their best non-BG asset (eric gordon) in the chris paul trade
- by dealing chris kaman and al-farouq aminu, the clips have a vastly diminished frontcourt. they don’t have anyone who can keep gortat off the glass.
- the most cursed franchise in the NBA just acquired a point guard with a history of knee problems

sure, the clips will be tough, but to say that the suns can’t compete with them is a massive overstatement

Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, and the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big ol' storm right square in the eye and he says, "Give me your best shot, pal. I can take it."

~Jack Burton, "Big Trouble in Little China"

by u_must_chill on Dec 19, 2011 11:40 PM MST up reply actions  

#1 is key.

But actually, a washed up Billups is starting next to Paul. A never was Randy Foye is backing up Paul until Eric Bledsoe gets healthy.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 19, 2011 11:50 PM MST up reply actions  

Its funny that I’ve never heard anyone speak highly of Foye but since the Paul trade I’ve read many “experts” season preview of the Clippers mention Foye has a solid backup that’s being forgotten. He’s being forgotten because he’s highly forgettable.

Bledsoe on the other hand, I like.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 11:55 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

as a starter

foye is nothing special.

but as a second scorer on the second team? not bad at all.

by forget on Dec 20, 2011 12:41 AM MST up reply actions  

Foye is pretty awful anyway you look at it.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 20, 2011 7:44 AM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

i disagree

i guess we’ll have to see how he does this season

by forget on Dec 20, 2011 11:50 AM MST up reply actions  

Wow, I'm agreeing with forget again.

Foye can be a decent player as long as you’re not relying on him to be one of your better players. He can do some nice things as a guard off the bench.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 20, 2011 1:48 PM MST up reply actions  

haha

i think if all of you guys try to keep your emotions out of your reasoning, you’ll agree with me on most things.

by forget on Dec 20, 2011 5:20 PM MST up reply actions  

haha you guys really do look on the brightside!

look at it this way, they have the edge of us at every position except center. And deandre jordan is no slouch. they have foye and mo williams coming off the bench. they have a rookie named trey thompkins who is 6’10 and can stretch the floor. their frontcourt is thin after jordan and BG, but they still will kick us up and down the court lol

by forget on Dec 20, 2011 12:29 AM MST up reply actions  

Why is DeAndre Jordan missing on that roster ??

That kid gonna be a beast this year.

Blind enough to believe on Pudgemonster.

by Lino Canaan on Dec 20, 2011 6:01 AM MST up reply actions  

i don't think thats enough to swing things

especially because they hold advantages at every other area on the roster lol

by forget on Dec 20, 2011 11:49 AM MST up reply actions  

I like Thompkins, and Cook can at least hit the 3. That is definitely their weak point, but it shouldn’t be crippling unless Griffin or Jordan get hurt.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 20, 2011 1:50 PM MST up reply actions  

At every position? Grant Hill >>>>>>>>>>>> Caron Butler.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 20, 2011 7:43 AM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Caron Butler is not very good

Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."

by rsavaj on Dec 20, 2011 6:40 PM MST up reply actions  

Caron Butler sucks

He shoots a lousy percentage and doesn’t make even simple passes. He’s a lazy defender as well.

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Dec 20, 2011 10:08 PM MST up reply actions  

45% is bad?

if he was on the suns you’d think he’s an all-star lol

by forget on Dec 20, 2011 10:16 PM MST up reply actions  

.450 is not good

Unless your eFG% is above .500 (e.g. you shoot a lot of threes at a decent clip).

by MMotherwell on Dec 21, 2011 3:48 PM MST up reply actions  

Can't wait to hear Kobe whine this year

That team, IMO, has a very slim chance at the ring.

"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

by Airwave on Dec 22, 2011 12:04 AM MST up reply actions  

and where'd you hear he was a lazy defender?

he’s decent. he’s not an all-nba defender, but that doesn’t mean he’s horrible

by forget on Dec 20, 2011 10:26 PM MST up reply actions  

Not that many >

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Dec 20, 2011 1:50 PM MST up reply actions  

Me too!

Our team match up well. Im just wondering if a team with that many ninjuries can make it this season deep. between Paul Blake G, Billups and Butler they have…only 4 good knees between them lol.

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Dec 19, 2011 11:45 PM MST up reply actions  

Four knees between them is being kind!

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 11:46 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Making light of a situation is definitely

one way of dealing with discomfort.

Usually it goes denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance, but I think we can fit in a little bravado and spunk between 1 and 2.

It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.

by Jim Coughenour on Dec 19, 2011 11:53 PM MST up reply actions  

well shit, Jim.

Maybe you’re right. Hell, why even play our games against good or potentially good teams? The Suns should just forfeit those right off the bat. I forgot that it’s only fun to root for your favorite team if they’re the odds-on favorite to win. Thanks for reminding me!

Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, and the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big ol' storm right square in the eye and he says, "Give me your best shot, pal. I can take it."

~Jack Burton, "Big Trouble in Little China"

by u_must_chill on Dec 20, 2011 7:53 AM MST up reply actions  

You're welcome.

In fact, the way the schedule is set up it might be a better idea to handpick about half a dozen games that are less than favorable in terms of positioning and opposition and let the league know of Phoenix’s intent to forfeit.

That’s a pretty good idea you had. I know that there was already discussion of scheduled days off for Nash (which, let’s face it – is basically a forfeit) but you took it a step further and stumbled into greatness.

I disagree with the odds-on-favorite comment though. I always cheer for my teams, but I tend to temper my expectations with a tinge of reality.

So even if the Clippers throttle Phoenix, I will still be rooting for the Suns. I just think that it will be a mildly tristful experience to witness firsthand that the perennial laughing stock of the league has ascended to a higher level than the Suns – an ascension which appears may last for a number of years if they can keep a healthy Paul/Griffin tandem playing together…..

It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.

by Jim Coughenour on Dec 20, 2011 2:34 PM MST up reply actions  

They are WAFER thin

But then, so are we! Might be a game of “whose bench is less worse”.

by MMotherwell on Dec 20, 2011 12:24 AM MST up reply actions  

Yep, and he defended him better than anyone else in the league I think.

by Chris_Coffel on Dec 19, 2011 11:35 PM MST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Crap

I remember that game… I was kind of in shock a bit after even though he didn’t make it. Dude can jump!

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Dec 20, 2011 1:28 PM MST up reply actions  

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