The Case for Josh Childress : Don't Trade Him. Play Him More.
Josh Childress has been a name mentioned in some rumor circles that the Suns are looking to move by the trade deadline.
No thank you.
I understand we have a ton of wings... but Childress can and should be a vital part of the future of this organization. For the life of me I don't know why he would be on the trade block - and it frustrates the crap out of me that Vince Carter (regardless of what he is/is not doing), who is essentially a loaner/leach, or better, a byproduct of the Gortat/Pietrus trade is playing when I believe the Suns would have a better chance at winning day in day out with Childress playing the minutes Carter is sleeping through.
Here is my case for Josh Childress. Don't Trade Him. Play him more.
The Nostalgia Matrix
Recently after one of the games where Jared Dudley threw down one of his 2 or 3 dunks of the season, Steve Nash was asked in a post game interview where he (Dudley) ranked among Nash's all time most explosive targets to pass to over the years.
Jokingly, Steve responded (something like this),
"Well without a doubt a doubt I'm going to have to say Shawn Marion was number one... then Amare, then Jared Dudley - he's a beast."
It was a funny joke and I chuckled. But then I cried.
Ah Shawn Marion.... he was my favorite member of the Suns during the Nash/Marion era [2004-2008]. I miss him as most of us do - it was his tireless and consistent effort every game, his explosiveness to the rim, his nose for the ball, his quick second, third, and sometimes fourth jumps on the glass and scrapping for loose balls that won me over. Those are probably the very same things that makes Steve Nash, without hesitation, drop his name when asked the question above.
Though he was one of my favorites... I won't lie and say don't feel a small grain of satisfaction when I see him struggle without Nash and away from Phoenix considering the circumstances under which he was shipped out of town. But still - Shawn Marion was himself an element of the essence of the revolutionary style that embodies Phoenix Suns Basketball. Chew on that.
What Shawn Marion brought to the table here in Phoenix is something we've missed and really haven't been able to replace since his departure. With 'Gang-Rebounding', Gortat, and the development of some players like Channing Frye for example - we've been able to improve our rebounding issues... but we still struggle to reclaim the consistent hustle-play-born possessions and offensive rebound-possessions that Marion manufactured day in and day out.
I think that's why we all love Jared Dudley - he does those things... but it's not exactly the same. Help me out, but I'm concluding that it's because Jared Dudley is all 'below-the-rim'. That's impressive in it's own right, don't get me wrong - but it was just another dimension to the Suns arsenal when Shawn Marion could create those kind of hustle-plays above the rim and finish with power and authority - the kind of authority that injects adrenaline and confidence in teammates and fans alike that Jared's under-the-hoop scrap can't quite always duplicate.
Shawn Marion-Lite
All of this winded introduction relates to why I was so excited to hear that the Suns had signed Josh Childress this past off-season. If you've ever heard Josh compared to Marion it's usually because their jumpshot is of a very similar style... UGLY.
Let me remind you of Marion's 3 point shooting form.
Now take a look at Josh Childress' 3 point shooting form - since we have hardly seen Josh this year on the floor and only 9 times total from behind the arc...
You can see why Childress can be compared to Marion. But what also is interesting is that they both play the same way as well - both would much rather cut to the hoop and finish at the glass or banging on the rim if given the option. Childress plays with the same frantic effort - he has a similar nose for the ball, and a similar speed on his second and third jumps in the paint. Childress does not have the verticle that Marion had here in Phoenix - but in his own right he can jump out of the gym.
Another thing we have (maybe prematurely) surmised is that his defensive solidity is not quite what we had hoped. Meaning this is probably the main reason he is truely 'Shawn-Marion-Lite'. His ability to gaurd smaller, quicker gaurds isn't something we've seen him be able to really accel at... but then again, I feel he really hasn't been able to show what he can do when a) he's fully healthy and not nursing a badly broken finger and b) confident in his role as a consistent minutes player for the team. Those thing do make a difference.
So despite the somewhat initial defensive disappointment, we've seen that Childress can give us a big chunk of the offensive rebounds, blocks, the steals and overall scrappiness and above the rim action that Marion provided... and again, for the life of me I can't understand why he isn't playing more.
Why They Say it Might Not Work...
Okay - so I have a couple ideas as to why he's not playing. And if you're wanting to know who 'they' is, I don't know maybe I made this all up... but it makes sense to me.
LOGJAM
- He's not playing because Vince Carter is here - because Grant Hill is here - because Jared Dudley is here - and because Mickael Pietrus is playing. LOGJAM - HEEEEELLLO?
That's two spots and 4 guys - I love Grant Hill, I love Jared Dudley, I feel like Pietrus deserves minutes and I don't feel like Vince Carter should be playing. I know it sounds stupid - and I'd bet my liver that the Vince-lovers will be in full force to run Vinsympathy parties down my throat... but I'm not concerned.
I am of the opinion, as I mentioned before that Vince is a byproduct. He's like the annoying little dog that you have to inherit when you marry the hot super-model babe. The difference is, we won't have to wait forever for the little dog to die - later this year the Suns will pay him his guaranteed 4 Million and we'll be rid of him, maybe he'll retire.
Here's my logic for that opinion: We signed Childress to a 5 year 33M dollar deal - We will NOT pay Vince 18M to NOT lead the team in scoring.
Am I heartless? Maybe. Will the Suns do what I want? Probably not. Vince is an established pro and an All-Star, and I imagine it can't be representative of anyone's reputation here in PHX to be known as the dude/s who stuffed VC on the bench to wither and die. Maybe it's some kind of Basketball etiquette that I don't understand or just want to abrogate.
Regardless of whether or not Vince plays and Childress doesn't - but following my same above logic - it makes no sense to trade Childress right now. He's a young long-term asset.
Floor Spacing
- He can't space the floor like the Suns and Steve Nash need since he doesn't shoot the 3 ball very well.
False.
How do you know he can't shoot the 3 ball well? After his career night on Tuesday against the Utah Jazz where he nailed 5 3-pointers, Channing Frye said,
"I just went out there with confidence.. you know, when you shoot as many 3's as I do, you start to get good at it - just like if I were to write the letter 'A' a whole bunch of times, I'd be pretty good at writing the letter 'A' at some point".
Getting good at something, especially something like 3-point shooting is a matter of repetition and confidence.
Let's look at Shawn Marion as an example - why? Because he was a below-average 3-point shooter coming out of UNLV... then he was a below-average 3-point shooter in his first couple years here in Phoenix, but then what happened, because the Suns could all of a sudden play Marion and space the floor just fine for Steve Nash?
Oh - he became an average 3-point shooter, and partly that is enough to space the floor for a Steve Nash team.
It was because he started putting up more 3-point shot attempts - and you know what that is? Repetition. What did we say comes with repetition? Confidence. What happens when somebody is confident? They make ish happen.
Take a look a the graph below - you'll have to click and enlarge to soak it all in.
This Graph chronicles Shawn Marion's 3-point shooting career.
As you can see - he only took 22 shots his first year in the league, and of those he only netted 4 for a terrible 18.2 3P%... you'd never have guessed that with his ugly shot, and those horrible numbers that he'd turn into a legitimate though below average weapon from beyond the arc.
As his career went on he began taking more shots and consequently he made more and more and shot a higher percentage.
Now pay close attention to the years 2004-05 through 2007-08 because those are the years that Steve Nash was in town and the Suns made 2 trips to the Western Conference Finals, a trip to the Western Semi-Conference Finals, and an early exit in the first round of the playoffs the final year. For all 4 of those years - Marion averaged a 3-point shooting percentage of just about 33%. That is below average, yet it was enough to space the floor - that is my point.
Can Childress shoot around that mark from the 3-point line? I believe he can and here's why, check out his career 3-point shooting graph.
Though Childress has yet to attempt more than 100 3-point shots in a year - the trend is the same. The more shot attempts he gets up, the more he makes and generally the higher his percentage ends up.
He hasn't been given enough opportunity to play consistent minutes - it's got to be only that much harder to develop confidence in your 3-point shot when your confidence in playing time isn't even a constant. Now go back to Marion's graph... after his years in Phoenix - he went right back to virtually no 3-point attempts, and a horrible 3P%.
He must play more. That's the only way he can have the opportunity to space the floor - until he plays there is no reasonable argument that trumps mine here that can prove he would not be able to space the floor enough for our offense to click.
Enter Euty's Imagination
I broke down the 3-point shooting percentages of the starting line-ups for those 4 years that Nash and Marion ran the floor together. Here's what we have.
2004-05 [62-20 - Western Conference Finals]
Starting Line-Up -- 3-Point %
J.Johnson = .478 [This was a J.Johnson career high year 3P% - his career average is .369]
S.Marion = .334
S.Nash = .431
Q.Richardson = .358 [226/631 - Career high attempts by almost double the next closest year, looking at his career, in the years that Q does not come close to attempting 300 3-Point shots or more, his 3P% is VERY pedestrian]
A.Stoudemire = .188 [3/16]
In each of these year's we're just not even going to consider the 3P% from the Center position - Amare rarely shot threes, same with Kurt Thomas as we will see.
So let's take the average of the 4 other players on the floor and identify their collective 3P% as one of the main floor spacing mechanism that allows Steve Nash to drive and kick and effectively run the Pick and Roll with "pick your poison" consequences.
The 2004-05 collective average was the highest it's ever been in the Steve Nash era = .400
I think it should also be noted that almost every one of these teams has had 2 players off the bench who also shoot a threatening percentage from 3-point range. This year it was,
BENCH
L.Barbosa = .367 [51/139]
Jim Jackson = .459 [68/148]
2005-06 [54-28 - Western Conference Finals]
Starting Line-Up -- 3-Point %
R.Bell = .442
B.Diaw = .267 [8/30 - did not attempt many at all]
S.Marion = .331
S.Nash = .439
Kurt Thomas = .000 [0/0]
Funny thing about this team... really only 3 players with 3-point weaponry (including Marion's below average %)... yet floor spacing was not an issue at all.
The 2005-06 collective average = .370
BENCH
L.Barbosa = .444
J.Jones = .386
2006-07 [61-21 - Western Conference Semi-Finals]
Starting Line-Up -- 3-Point %
R.Bell = .413
B.Diaw = .333 [ 15/45 - again, not a big 3P shooter]
S.Marion = .317
S.Nash = .455
A.Stoudemire = .000 [0/3]
Again - only 3 players needed shooting from the perimeter to space the floor.
The 2006-07 collective average = .380
BENCH
L.Barbosa = .434
J.Jones = .378
2007-08 [55-27 1st Round Early Exist from the Playoffs]
Starting Line-Up -- 3-Point %
R.Bell = .401
G.Hill = .317
S.Marion = .347 [ His best year shooting from the perimeter with Steve Nash, after 3 years of sub-average shooting... he shot around the league average 3P%, more than enough to be considered a threat]
S.Nash = .470
A.Stoudemire = .161 [5/31]
This was the year Shawn Marion was traded and Shaq was acquired... Also we only had 1 real threat from the bench this year, L.Barbosa = .389.
The 2007-08 collective average = .384
NOW this brings us to our Starting Line-up for this year...
2010-11
Starting Line-Up -- 3-Point %
V.Carter = .381 [45/118]
G.Hill = .388 [19/49 - doesn't shoot many... but on track for more than B.Diaw ever did in a year]
S.Nash = .411 [62/151]
C.Frye = .388 [112/289]
R.Lopez = .000 [0/0]
And from the BENCH
M.Pietrus = .325 [27/83]
J.Dudley = .379 [64/169]
As our line-up is currently - the 2010-11 collective 3P% is .392, that's second only to the amazing 2004-05 season 3P% of .400. We have a great line-up with 4 threats from the out-side... so here's the redundant argument made against Josh Childress - he can't shoot from 3 and subsequently doesn't space the floor enough for Steve Nash.... REALLY?
I've already expressed my opinion as to the fact that he should play more - and with more minutes he will shoot arguably more/better from the perimeter, just like we saw Shawn Marion develop.
But let's just take his shooting percentage from distance for what it is. As he stands, Childress currently has a career 3P% of .348.
The league average 3P% for this year is .359 which is the 6th highest it's ever been in 32 years of NBA 3-Point shooting. That means there are a lot of good 3-point shooters out there and Childress is just below average.
As my observations have pointed out - the Suns haven't always needed 4 players on the floor who can shoot from the perimeter in order for the floor to be spaced sufficiently. AND even when they only have 3 shooters on the floor - we've seen that (Shawn Marion) one of those players can have sub-par shooting percentages and still create the stir needed to keep players at home defending shooters and consequently space the floor as needed for Steve Nash.
If we plunk Josh Childress in for Vince Carter...
J.Childress = .348
G.Hill = .388
S.Nash = .411
C.Frye = .388
R. Lopez = .000
The collective 2010-11 3P% could/would be = .384
So now please tell me how Josh Childress can't space the floor as a member of the Phoenix Suns? Try me.
One concern is that Hill and Childress are similar in style - both slashing cutting wings... and that they are both wings as well is a concern. But as we've seen all too well, Grant Hill is more than capable of gaurding younger/smaller guards in this league, while Josh could take the SF - I don't defensive matchups as quite the problem. I do see the offensive potential as appealing - with Childress on the floor with Grant Hill, Josh and Hill can rotate either crashing the glass or leaking-out on the break as we know Hill (and possibly Chilly) can do best. Childress would be a much better rebounder than Vince Carter or a majority of the gaurds we could imagine on our team - plus his natural nose for the ball and quick elevation would benefit the team by providing more offensive rebounds and 2nd chance points.
Conclusion
Don't trade Josh Childress. Play him more.
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I'm totally down for the Suns playing JChill
more frequently. The guy did a damn amazing job playing with his off hand, while he was healing. Dude showed he’s very tough. He’d wince in pain, but never complain.
Vince gets paid way too much and does way too little. And as I’ve said before, Vince only cares about 2 things: 1) Not being blamed for anything 2) Getting his shots. If #2 doesn’t happen, refer back to #1. That’s Vince in summation.
As for Chilly being Marion-Lite… I’m going to have to disagree ONLY because Josh has a way better hair style. The ’Fro is so iconic.
Just to help add numbers to your column, my favorite game Childress had for us was against the OKC Thunder. This is when the trade went down and the Suns showed up short handed. JChill had 10points, 5 boards, 3 steals & an assist in 28 minutes. That’s a crap ton of solid effort against a very impressive team. Rec’d!
Ture - thanks for the numbers
Marion had a fro for a bit.. but it was definitely Chilly-Lite :)
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
trade quarter for sth
Say what?
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
Maybe Carter's good at blogging... that might work
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
Don't do it!
Carter would spend more time at opposing teams blogs than he would writing columns and doing work for this one.
lol
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
At least Vince isn't a huge troll.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
definitely Chill is a keeper
but definitely, he should stay on the bench unless someone gets hurt.
Carter and Pietrus are known threats on 3-ptrs. Guys guard them more closely at the 3-pt line because they have to. Even when MP and Carter don’t make shots, the defender has spent the whole game worried they will. And the closer the defender sticks to a guy on a the 3-pt line, the more room Nash has to roam in the paint.
But with Childress, that’s not the case. Childress won’t get that respect until he’s proven over a season that he can make them. Until then, the defender slacks off which clogs the driving/passing lanes.
Here’s my vision for the future: Childress takes over Grant’s time little by little, then eventually fulltime. He proves to the league he can make any open 3-ptr, starting with wide open ones because there won’t be anyone guarding him. And that vision starts next season, unless there’s an injury.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
In all likeliness you're probably right about all this starting next year with Chilly
But I still don’t buy the whole ‘clogging the lane’ since Chilly’s not proven bit.
Because even if the corner (where Chilly will probably be spotted up) defender is hugging the lane a little more – there are still 2 viable threats on the wing with either Hill (in the other corner) or Frye out on the wing. Boris Diaw did just fine to keep his defender spaced.. and Childress is able to move well without the ball that he can clear his defender from any area Nash is probing if needs be. Just don’t buy it.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
The thing about Childress is that
even though he’s not an “established” 3-point threat, he’s not exactly Rondo. He can knock down those shots, even if it’s not that often. Defenders sag off him, they’ll pay. Just like they do when they try sagging off Grant Hill. Even if they do sag off them, Chilly and Hill can drive to the hoop (which they do) and take it all the way themselves or kick it out to another 3 point shooter. These guys aren’t great 3 point shooters, but they’re high BBIQ players. They’ll make it work.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
I'm gonna just copy and paste what I wrote on Wil's fanshot here for others to see:
To address the main point:
We have to keep Childress. We’re most likely waving Vince’s butt bye-bye at the end of the season since I doubt we’ll find any suitors for him at the trade deadline. 17 mill for his current level of production is too much.
Childress is a talented player and calling him a disappointment is suuuuuuuper stupid since he barely got any playing time and the time he did get, he happened to have an injured thumb. An injured thumb hinders you from shooting as well as you’d normally shoot with an unbroken one, so Chilly didn’t shoot as frequently as he might have if he were healthy.
He still played to his strengths and did what he could with his current limitations. He plays solid defense, has excellent handles, posts up real nice, has a knack for running the floor, and just being where he knows he should be. That’s what smart basketball players do. Why would we get rid of someone who is this good, but hasn’t gotten the playing time? The dude’s not even reached his prime yet.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
good points
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
Don't know about the excellent handles
Want epic? Go to Bright Side of the Sun threads. We're more Homer than homer.
Because he hasn't been able to showcase them...
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
I'm not understanding...
When we signed josh this offseason to a 5 year deal I expected to see him play, he has a lot of potential/talent, I don’t get why they’d want to trade him already. That would leave 1 player out of all our off season signings/ trades that we would still have, was this offseason basically all about keeping hakim warrick? I don’t get the Suns front office and never will. What they should do is trade vince carter to cleveland for some picks a young asset like jj hickson and the remainder of their tpe they got from lebron. I’m possitive the suns would be fine without Vince.
We'd be fine without Carter
But if the Cavs wouldn’t trade Hickson for Amare last season.. there’s no way they’re trading him for the corpse of VC.
Couldn't agree more.
Well, maybe if you said play Childress more and pay me Vince’s money, then I’d agree a little more. I still like the potential of Chilldress on this team. Carter still has talent and he can still be a game changer, but it’s obvious he doesn’t care. He plays hard when he feels like it, which isn’t often enough. JC would give the effort and, with time, would regain some of the confidence needed to remind us why we were so happy when he became a Sun for such a (what seemed at the time) bargain). Carter? A surprisingly close contender for worst Sun ever (behind Starbury, of course). Trade him for some shoes and potato chips and I’d be okay with it. (Though league rules would make that a lot of shoes and chips…)
Eutychus...Nice post!
First, let me say that I absolutely agree with your stance…and I absolutely agree with you that VC should NOT be playing. We are a team with many players fighting for playing time, so why should we reward a player by starting them and playing them based on what he “used” to do, or how much we are paying him?
Well, the answer is, to save face.
By replacing VC with Chill and making Carter our 11th man, we are effectively admitting we made an $18mil mistake. While some of us would understand that we had to take Vince to get rid of Hedo, and that he is effectively a $14mil expiring contract either way, many others will point out that we traded away our leading scorer for a handful of bench guys.
This scenario makes Babby & Blanks look pretty bad, and I wouldn’t be shocked if they are pressuring Alvin at least a little to try to make Carter work for the time being…Alvin has already admitted in so many words that they are trying to force him to take the place of J-Rich…Not going to happen.
So, while I 100% agree with everything you stated, I just don’t see any scenario where we would bench VC for Childress. I do believe J-Chill would give us a more efficient 10-15 min a game than Carter has, but it would look really bad to pay a guy $18 to register DNP’s.
What you said here could be a bullet in the post
Seriously – that’s the quandary we have.
The frustrating thing is that Vince could give you 20ppg, on any given night… but only if the moon is full and he’s motivated.
Peeps should know too – I still believe the Suns need a real scoring threat at the SG position (maybe an off-season acquisition, I’ve talked about drafting Jimmer Fredette but who knows who will be available when the time comes either through the draft or FA) because Vince WILL leave. I’ve also talked about getting a traditional PF that doesn’t rely on the outside shot… but that isn’t to completely rule out that Hakim Warrick might expand his game and gain some weight.. or that Channing might continue to develop and become a more reliable scorer with an inside offensive presence.
But Childress is a definite asset that will benefit this team in the future and I believe he could be an asset now (though not likely to happen) if he played…
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
Dang - what will you do if he retires?
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
T-Mac time?
Founder of the Coalition to Light Vince Carter On Fire (CTLVCOF)
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Feb 17, 2011 2:33 PM MST up reply actions
Haha keep it in the family
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
We essentially only have 2 stars
with everyone else being role players. And those 2 stars are our oldest players. Call it sad or call it amazing; the truth is we need our young guys to step up. Vince is 34, which is considered old in this sport, and he’s been playing for over a decade. He’s a veteran and should play like one. Not only are veterans expected to teach the younger guys coming in, but they also have to lead by example.
I would assume some of our younger players thought of Vince as their idol at one point or another like they did with Nash or Hill. So if your idol doesn’t play up to his full skill or potential, why would you? Vince doesn’t deserve too much blame, but he should take responsibility for some.
Young guys need inspiration and the leaders and vets of the team need to provide that. That’s just my take.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Alvin has already admitted in so many words that they are trying to force him to take the place of J-Rich
this also could have something to do with Carter’s 8 all-star starts and status up to this season as a top-20 clutch player in the league. I dunno for sure, but…
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
For Bill Simmons enthusiasts...
He has JChill at number 4 and Channing at number 24 worst contracts in the league.
Though, he does have Nash (2) and Duds (12) in the best contracts list.
Bo Baggins!
Let me get a link
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
Channing a "worst contract"?
Sure, because there are so many 7ft PF/C hybrids that can shoot 3’s, rebound, and play defense for 5 years/$30mil. Yes, at the time it was a gamble, but Channing has evolved his game dramatically to become a much more complete player, as his 30pt 11rb effort last game against Utah demonstrates.
by 7footer on Feb 17, 2011 12:25 PM MST up reply actions 4 recs
I agree
Over the last 8 games, Channing is averaging about 16pts, 9.4 rebounds and 1.4 Blocks per game.
That isn’t worth 6M a year?
Let’s see… in contrast Vince Carter is making 18M this year alone (3X Channing) and over the last 8 games he’s averaging 10.8pts, 3.4 rebounds and 1.5 assists. Interesting
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
God yes.
I do not understand for the life of me how Channing isn’t worth 6M a year. He averages 12/6.
Founder of the Coalition to Light Vince Carter On Fire (CTLVCOF)
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Feb 17, 2011 12:46 PM MST up reply actions
Lolz
I remember I thought Channing was getting overpaid when I found out about the contract signing. But holy freakin’ shiznitz, I am wrong. Sorry, Channing. You’ve become essential to our defense and our offense’s spacing. My bad, yo.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
You've convinced me..
I was one of the people who thought Chilly needed to be able to spread the floor better to get playing time, but I remember thinking Marion-lite when Childress got a few minutes early in the season.. and the thought of having anyone Matrixish out there makes me happy. His shot is a little funky but nowhere near as ugly as Marion’s.
In a perfect world, Childress would move into the rotation and Carter would move out.. Like all the way out. Off the team. Out of the league. Or better yet onto someone elses team where he can rot. But sadly, I don’t see it happening this season.. Although if it did, I would rather see Dudley move into the starting lineup and have JChill come off the bench with Goran.
The question I have is.. Since VC’s contract is a team option for next season, we could still dump him in a trade this summer to get value back, right? His $18mil would obviously be attractive to any team trying to free up cap space.
Excellent post. Recc'ed all the way
We’re way overstaffed with jump-shooters. We always live and die with jump shots at crunch time. Here’s novel thought: How about we play a guy who is a complete change-up, whose instinct is to attack the friggin rim? VC shies away from contact, while JC relishes playing under the rim. He punches way above his weight in his post-up game. He plays on energy and instinct. He’ll also create his own shot sometimes. His D will only improve as he participates in the rotations.
JC was a victim of our glut of wings in the early part of the season. Gentry said he had to shorten the rotations. I agreed at the time. I never thought for a minute that JC would be the permanent victim of this approach. We’d be crazy to trade the guy. Who’d want him anyway after he’s ridden the pine for so long having just returned from Europe?
I say Scott lights the torch on VC – and Chil rides to our rescue.
I like it
I say Scott lights the torch on VC – and Chil rides to our rescue.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
So does Scott do pitchforks?
Or can that be my job?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Nice Post Eut...
could Hill play 2 guard if VC was shipped out for someone who gets bought out or plays another position (which is the more likely scenario if it were to happen)? Who would be the better 2 guard, Dudz or Hill? I guess Dudz get fill in for Carter at the shooting guard position, but my only concern with that is losing his energy off the bench…
I think Hill could play 2 on defense
He already does that anyway when he guards the likes of Kobe – Ellis – Harden – Wade, etc.
And on offense – the way Phoenix plays is not conventional (with a PF who acts more like a SG… and SF that act more like SG’s) thus it really doesn’t matter who you label the SG on O. Heck – It could be Channing.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
yeah, I kinda was thinking that as I wrote my comment.
I’d love Hak to come out and have a 20/10 night tonight (wishful thinking)… We’ll need some scrappy play around the rim from him to help out the bigs… I’m mainly just hoping that Brian Cardinal doesn’t light us up from 3, he’s their biggest threat off the bench:)
Right next to Nikoloz Tskitishvili
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
Great Post
We need him to stay. Honestly, he has always responded when Gentry has given him a chance. I’d rather see him a lot more than Warrick.
"Basketball doesn't build character. It reveals it"
great. Jchill is a good player
and I won’t be surprise that the lakers wanted him instead of artest
Never Fear. Grant Hill is Here.
I'm a fan of Frochill when he was playing on atlanta
A very athletic guy and the heart is there. He is frustrated by now. but yes Patience is a virtue
Never Fear. Grant Hill is Here.
I agree with everything you said, but disagree with some of your reasoning
I agree that J Chil is a keeper, and that he should play over VC.
I also agree that he should play more.
I don’t necessarily agree that we should keep him. He actually is value for someone and we may be able to parlay him into something even more useful [if traded in combo with other pieces].
Here is where I find I part with your reasoning:
Marion, in his prime, had a unique set of skills on both ends of the floor. What made him work for the Suns was those skills in combination with the others in the lineup. The fact was, Marion had the unique ability because of his long arms, quickness and quick jumping, to effectively guard power forwards for an extended period of time. It created matchups that forced opponents to take bigger players out in favor of being able to guard him. His ability to find slashing angles and create opportunities off the offensive glass gave opposing bigs fits. If you look at the majority of the lineups during his prime, Marion played the 4 alongside Stoudamire. What I believe was less important was Marion’s 3 point shooting. Yes, he was below average. But the offense flowed from having 4 players that space the floor with outside shooting ability [not necessarily 3 point shooting – although it was a big part of it]. The fact was, Amare was the 4th shooter, not Marion. yes, Marion hit just enough timely threes to make people pay, but he also missed a lot of shots. Amare spread the floor enough to allow Marion to slash to the rim as well, so it worked. The fact that he was usually guarded by the opposing 4 meant that he often had plenty of time to gather and shoot, thus making him more of a threat. When he was forced to play other small forwards, his shooting dramatically dipped, thus taking away his advantage and making him less useful for the team.
Childress doesn’t have the same ability. He cannot effectively guard the 4 for long periods of time. So he is usually matched up against guys that have the same size and speed. He has no advantage. He also doesn’t rebound like Marion. So all of the major advantages and mismatches that Marion brought to the table don’t exist with Childress. Childress is a more prototypical 3. He is a guy that slashes and can post occasionally. he will get some offensive boards and guard decently on the perimeter [although I agree that his defense was overblown]. I would actually say he is a better defending Cedric Ceballos Lite. He loves the baseline and is very effective down low for a guard. Problem is, our offense isn’t made for that type of player.
As far as the logjam, I don’t buy it. Players that bring synergy find the court. That is why Dudley plays. I actually put more credence to the idea that we are playing VC in order to get his stats to where someone overvalues him. Unfortunately i just don’t think it worked.
BTW, Dudley is Raja Bell Lite.
by coachj14 on Feb 17, 2011 4:28 PM MST reply actions 2 recs
The sole reason I like your Dudley/Bell statement
is because Raja clotheslined the F out of Kobe. If Dudley pulls that off, then your statement is completely wrong.
Great post coach
The thing that made Raja better, IMO, was his transition defense. Dudley doesn’t have the raw size to do what Raja did in transition.
Trade Warrick!!!
Raja was slightly better in that he was a bit more agile defensively
But I can see Dudley improving in a few areas and he may well pass up Raja at some point. Dudley can guard 2’s, 3’s, and if stuck on a 4, can deal with it for switch situation because he has more size than Raja. That makes him a bit more versatile and Dudley’s offense isn’t really that far off Raja’s.
We seem to have too many "Lites"
Of players who couldn’t win a championship in the first place.
Founder of the Coalition to Light Vince Carter On Fire (CTLVCOF)
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Feb 17, 2011 5:49 PM MST up reply actions
Good point
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
Having "lites" of players integral to WCF runs isn't a bad thing, IMO
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
If you plan Goran and Childress together, then you only have one ball-handler on the floor.
Somebody needs to be in there to take pressure off Goran, because when he gets pressed, he struggles, and when he struggles, the whole unit struggles.
Want epic? Go to Bright Side of the Sun threads. We're more Homer than homer.
How's Dowdell, Dragic, Pietrus, Childress, and Gortat look to ya?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
reply fail below
(in the words of 2Nashty)
Want epic? Go to Bright Side of the Sun threads. We're more Homer than homer.
trade VC for antwan
He could help facilitate some offense
by dan-van on Feb 17, 2011 6:18 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Childress can handle the ball - just as effectively as Grant Hill
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
A little small, but intriguing.
Want epic? Go to Bright Side of the Sun threads. We're more Homer than homer.
That's what she said.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
lob feed: finished
Want epic? Go to Bright Side of the Sun threads. We're more Homer than homer.
carter for antwan
Why don’t we ever talk about a VC for antwan trade?
by dan-van on Feb 17, 2011 6:05 PM MST via mobile reply actions
stretch 4
It gets rid of VC and gets chilly the back up 2 spot with mp starting. We get an experienced pf to come of the bench behind channing. Cleveland has been looking to get rid of him any way they get a expiring contract and why not throw in our first round cause starver usually sells it anyway. Antwans contract expires the same year 2times anyway. So its not like were taking on super long term commitment anyway. Antwan deserves to be on a good team anyway if NO gets him and we could have id be upset
by dan-van on Feb 17, 2011 6:16 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Wouldn't give up a first round pick for an aging 4.
Sarver hasn’t sold a first rounder since 2007.
Founder of the Coalition to Light Vince Carter On Fire (CTLVCOF)
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Feb 17, 2011 6:28 PM MST up reply actions
PLAY CHILDRESS MORE...
or at least the 15-20mpg that warrick gets. Although i agree that the better option wold be to sit/ trade/ lessen time of VC i do believe that Chill can even play PF a lot better than Warrick.. Theyre about the same size – but Chill seems more willing to mix up inside especially on defense… he is definitely a better rebounder (at least a more consistent one) than Warrick….. IMO he’ll be as good a PNR guy withhis atlethicism and good touch around the basket. And he’s not gonna take crazy shots- he’s had a very good FG% in his career.
Also in the few games that he did get enough minutes this year – he seems to be the guy who seems to be in a lot of plays – blocks, steals, putbacks, slithering his way inside to grab rebounds. I just dont get it if VC is not playing up to speed and we know hes not gonna be resigned then they should stop playing him… or maybe Suns are hopefully displaying for a last minute trade…
Cannot go with this
Just from last nights game He looks like he doesn’t know what is happening around him.
He turns the ball over too much…
Misses the open man..
Drives and then gets overwhelmed…
I know the sample is way….. to small, but what I have seen from him earlier still reminds me of this assessment – low basketball IQ.

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