2010-2011 Phoenix Suns as Seen Through the Lens of 82games.com "Simple Ratings"
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
~Benjamin Disraeli
It's always possible for us to cherry pick data that support our preconceived notions. It happens in the corporate world, certainly happens in politics, and happens among sports fans too. After all, who wants to be cold and rational about the Suns? The emotional attachment is what makes it fun to be a fan. This same emotional attachment can cloud our judgment of players.
Still, stats can show us bottom line results if they are used correctly. 82games.com and Basketball Reference are two excellent resources for advanced statistical analysis, since we know that raw scoring numbers don't tell much. For example, Aaron Brooks could score 20PPG if he was given 40 minutes per game, and told "go for it!". Of course, his team would be terrible and those scoring numbers would be empty. PER and +/- have their flaws, too, but I've found a stat that I've begun to go to often: 82games.com "simple rating", a hybrid of the two. In their words:
The main components of the 'Simple Ratings' are a production measure (a variant of John Hollinger's PER rating) for a player's own stats versus the counterpart player on the other team while he is on the court, as well as a simple on court/off court plus minus.
The +/- used isn't just a player's +/- overall, meaning it doesn't punish good players on bad teams or reward bad players on good ones by saying "team X had this success with player Y on the floor." Instead, +/- is measured when a player is on the floor versus when he isn't. For example, the T-Wolves are awful overall, but they are much more awful when Kevin Love isn't on the floor, bolstering Love's simple rating. Jump it to see how our Suns stack up by this measure.
Steve Nash is the most effective, valuable and irreplaceable member of the current Phoenix Suns, by far. Captain Obvious reporting for duty. His 11.0 rating also places him 7th overall in the NBA. The league top 10:
- LeBron James
- Dwight Howard
- Dwyane Wade
- Kevin Garnett
- Paul Pierce
- Manu Ginobili
- Steve Nash
- Dirk Nowitzki
- Chris Paul
- Kobe Bryant
Full list can be found here. Once you stop smiling in satisfaction that Nash is rated above Kobe (this took me awhile), take a closer look at the list. You can argue with placement of some players, but none of them seem completely insane, right? It passes the initial smell test? Other things I choose to note: by this measure, Nash is indeed the best point guard in basketball and Derrick Rose, favorite to win league MVP, is the 17th player overall. Many will see this as a failure in the smell test for this stat, but I prefer to see it that this stat is a tool to help understand and not a be-all, end-all ranking.
How do the rest of the Suns stack up? Mostly as you would imagine. The Suns have one elite player in Nash, and then two solidly above average but not dominant players in Marcin Gortat and Grant Hill. The other plus players for the Suns this season? The departed Jason Richardson and......yes, that's right, the man who is kindling in the eyes of a great amount of BSOTS-ers, Vince Carter.
Undoubtedly, this will cause many of you to issue a "fail" on the smell test. And my point here isn't to champion Vince Carter's meager accomplishments with the Suns. Yet it might also indicate that he hasn't quite been the complete disaster that we think. Data show that Carter is a slight minus in production compared to his opposing SGs, and a slight plus in his time on the floor vs. his time off the floor.
The ranking of Suns players this season, as of April 6:
- Steve Nash
- Marcin Gortat
- Grant Hill
- Jason Richardson
- Vince Carter
- Jared Dudley
- Channing Frye and Hakim Warrick (tie)
- Mickael Pietrus
- Aaron Brooks
- Josh Childress
- Earl Clark
- Robin Lopez
- Hedo Turkoglu
- Zabian Dowdell
- Goran Dragic
- Garret Siler
- Earl Barron
- Gani Lawal (very limited sample size, obviously)
Complete list with supporting data can be found here. (If anyone can tell me how to paste the chart into this post, let me know.)
My observations:
- Channing Frye and Hakim Warrick aren't equal players, so I take issue there.
- Robin Lopez has been a mess by any measure.
- Aaron Brooks has indeed been an upgrade from Goran Dragic, who struggled mightily in his time with Phoenix this year.
- Hedo wasn't really that bad, was he?
- Earl Barron was outstandingly craptacular. The Suns front office should be embarrassed that they did such a poor job securing a big man this past offseason that Barron was ever an option.
- I've expressed my Polish Hammer love repeatedly, and he's been rock solid by any measure, smell test or eyeball test. Not a star, but he continues to grow and is already one of our team's best players.
What say you about these ratings? Do they seem fairly close to what you've seen out of our players? And, what do you think of the methodology used to determine them? There will never be a simple number that will tell us how good a player is, but this one is closer to the truth than others I've seen.
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My list, just for the players in the rotation based on their performance and value.
1. Nash
2. Gortat
3. Frye
4. Hill
5. Dudley
6. Brooks
7. VC
8. Warrick
9. Pietrus
10. Lopez
Don't trade Dudley!
Looking at this rotation
We only had 5 players we could count on every night. The Nuggets have 10. If the other 5 could have been more consistent and did their job we’d be in the playoffs.
Don't trade Dudley!
Right.
Going into the season without Amare, we were hanging our hopes on continued improvement from Lopez and Dragic. They were supposed to be young building blocks, but each of them failed. Nash and Hill did as well as could be expected, even with Nash’s injuries late in the year, but too much was asked of them. The bench was supposed to be a strength, but we had to move Frye, Dudley and Gortat into the starting lineup since Lopez, Turkoglu and Carter failed, turning the bench from strength to weakness.
by East Bay Ray on Apr 10, 2011 10:08 AM MST up reply actions
I'd say Chilly tentatively makes it #6...
and we have sufficient guys like ZD and Hak at the 9, 10, 11..
we need really 2 guys, to have 8 solid guys which combined with some of the current guys in lesser spots gives us enough.
how we get there from here???? dunno.
whoa whoa, where's Siler and ZD? some would argue their value vs. Lopez
Channing Frye would NEVER catch flying french fries with his left hand!
This is a very good resume.
I agree with Beavis 25. Suns don’t have 10 players who can play consistently. Suns organization will have a lot of work to do if Suns are back as Playoff Team.
By any and every stat(adjusted plus/minus is my favorite), Dragic had a truly awful season as a Sun this year
I really do think he could have turned it around next year had we kept him :(
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
It looked to me like Gentry grew so frustrated with Dragic that he essentially gave up on him.
And I assume there are things the organization saw about his focus, toughness, maturity, etc. that caused some of that frustration. Seth has hinted at it, that Dragic was letting some of the trappings of mild stardom get to him. The episode where he cut his foot was just…weird. Not to make too big a deal of it, but how does that happen?
by East Bay Ray on Apr 10, 2011 10:17 AM MST up reply actions
the only adjective I can think of:
kinky
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
it’s hard to empirically rate defense, so BAMF will be inherently underrated
"Maybe I’m old school," Nash said, "but I signed a contract to play here and I want to honor it. I feel like I owe it to my teammates and the city and everybody to keep battling until they tell me it’s time to go." STEVE (God of Basketball) NASH
True, but he does score points here for team performance when he's on the court vs. when he's off.
I’m not sure how they figure what his opponent’s production was. Is it just whoever the opposing SF was? If so, it doesn’t count for much when he’s guarding guys like Monta Ellis, Derrick Rose or Blake Griffin.
I think these team numbers overall can be summarized this simply: over-reliance on Nash and Hill.
by East Bay Ray on Apr 10, 2011 12:57 PM MST up reply actions
below is my reply fail
plus it was supposed to be block quoted
"Maybe I’m old school," Nash said, "but I signed a contract to play here and I want to honor it. I feel like I owe it to my teammates and the city and everybody to keep battling until they tell me it’s time to go." STEVE (God of Basketball) NASH
I think these team numbers overall can be summarized this simply: over-reliance on Nash and Hill.
yup…
"Maybe I’m old school," Nash said, "but I signed a contract to play here and I want to honor it. I feel like I owe it to my teammates and the city and everybody to keep battling until they tell me it’s time to go." STEVE (God of Basketball) NASH
SUNS do not have..
..one player who is a serious one on one threat. They had one in Amare, they had one with J Rich. Hill is the closest player they have now, he can be a one on one threat but he is 38, and Gortat is the best prospect to become a big one on one threat, who needs to be double teamed. SUNS seriously lack a go to guy who can score one on one.
True.
All we have now is Nash making average players look pretty good, Hill being a glue guy who works his ass off, Gortat as a single solid interior presence, and then just a bunch of average guys.
The hard part is that I don’t know what the solution is.
Vince Carter: he hasn't quite been the complete disaster that you think.
by East Bay Ray on Apr 10, 2011 7:43 PM MST up reply actions
I want to say they need to trade up in the draft, but what pieces could we offer, and for a chance at who?
Channing Frye would NEVER catch flying french fries with his left hand!
Young talent is needed, no doubt.
But I don’t think we can get anyone in this draft who will be a big-time contributor right away, even if we trade up to the top 5. Whoever we get won’t really get cooking until Nash and Hill are done. Veteran free agent additions would be better, but I’m not sure what’s available there either.
Don’t really know the direction of the team right now. Hang on and go hard to contend or rebuild? We’re getting splattered in the middle of the road as it is.
Vince Carter: he hasn't quite been the complete disaster that you think.
by East Bay Ray on Apr 10, 2011 8:48 PM MST up reply actions
one additional note..
VC rated as 4th most effective amongst current suns….
just sayin.
Duly noted.
I attribute that partially to the fact that VC wasn’t as bad as many here say, and partially to the fact that this measure isn’t perfect.
by East Bay Ray on Apr 12, 2011 3:45 PM MST up reply actions

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