In Defense of Jimmer Fredette's Defense - Dispelling the Pre-Draft Fables
by Eutychus on May 27, 2011 6:50 PM MST
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PrintHere's a bit of weekend reading for you.
Okay, so I'll admit it right off the bat, the title may be a little misleading but trust me - you want to read this beast all the way through. It will open your eyes to some fallacies found in the conversation surrounding Jimmer Fredette and the possibility of the Phoenix Suns taking the NCAA Player of the Year at 13 in this year's NBA draft.
If I'm going to call out some things that are wrong with what people are saying, let's first identify a few things that are right.
- The Utah Jazz may very well take Fredette at 12, a pick before the Suns. But that doesn't make the focus of this article a moot point... trust me - continue reading my friends.
- Jimmer Fredette did not display very much motivation or production defensively during college. VERY true, no argument here.
"So Eutychus... what in tarnations are you trying to do here, you just admitted that you have no argument?" - Captain Obvious
Thanks Captain, now jump it and hold your questions until after I'm finished.
There is this fable that is gaining popularity among some faithful members of Bright Side of the Sun as well as local sports media giants like Paul Coro and our own Seth Pollack.
- Drafting Jimmer Fredette goes against the new front office's declaration to get better defensively and to get bigger in size.
Suns beat writer Paul Coro expressed his agreement with the above statement during an interview he did on Thursday (5/26) for a local radio show. You can listen to the audio here.
Our own Seth wrote an article for SBNationAZ about it that can be found here. In it he says,
The second part of this equation is the stated commitment from Suns President Lon Babby to get better defensively.
In his final press conference of the season, Babby made a point to talk about the need to improve on the defensive end and add size to the team. Jimmer Fredette is the opposite of both things.
This my friends is what I'm going to call a fable. Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of Coro and I'm a fan of Seth, I love those dudes like uncles - but I'm going to open up a different perspective here.
Let's break this fable into two parts.
- Drafting Fredette goes against a franchise goal of getting better defensively.
- Drafting Fredette contradicts a franchise goal of adding size.
Starting with the first.
#1 - Getting Better Defensively
It's true, the Suns desperately need to improve on the defensive end. As a team we saw small victories towards that goal this year with the development of Channing Frye, the acquisitions of Marcin Gortat and Mickael Pietrus and the wise and standard work of Grant Hill and Jared Dudley.
How do we get better defensively? It's going to happen two ways - through personnel changes and through coaching changes (i.e. schemes, practice, demand, accountability). By now we've all heard the word that 'cheap' Sarver has given the OK to add another salaried coach to the staff to help with the second part of that improvement (I forgot how to use the sarcasm font so I hope you realize I don't think Sarver is cheap). Alvin Gentry says,
"What I decided was we just needed someone from the outside with a new voice and outlook. It's not anything against who we have. Dan Majerle played for Pat Riley and was all-defensive, and I do have confidence in Bill Cartwright and the other guys, but we need a new approach because if we're ever going to be good, we need a whole new voice to be consistent."
I think this is a great step forward for the Suns and if this is the only thing the Suns do in the off-season (obviously it won't be the only thing) I'm sure the team will improve defensively.
For the personnel part... we have the Draft and we have Free-Agency. Who goes and who stays!? Who knows. But if you want guaranteed results as far as acquiring a defensive player you do it through free-agency... unless there's a Blake Griffin, nothing is guarantee in the draft. You go out and get guys who are proven NBA defenders if that's your goal. And where do you start? What positions are the defensive priorities to upgrade? (Here's a kicker and one of my 'new perspectives')
It doesn't start with the Point Guard. In fact, the point guard position is the LAST priority when it comes to defense.
Let me prove my position. Let's take a look at the best defensive teams in the league this year. That's determined by who has the best team Defensive Rating (DRtg - a combination of defensive factors compiled and thrown together by scientists and super-evolved monkeys).
Oh - a note for you advanced statistics noobs, the lower the defensive rating the better, it's an estimation of the points allowed by a player/team per 100 possessions.
Another note - the league average DRtg is 107.
Boston Celtics tied for first place with a team DRtg of 100.3
- Not a single player on the roster sports a DRtg over 104. 9 out of their top 10 defensive players are Forwards or Centers, Rajon Rondo (defensive player #5 on the team) is the only guard.
Chicago Bulls tied for # 1 with 100.3
- Also not a single player over 104 DRtg. And again - 8 out of their top 10 defenders are Forwards or Centers (C.J. Watson and Luol Deng round out spots 9 and 10).
Orlando Magic # 3 with 101.8
- Not a single player over 106 DRtg. Again - top defenders overwhelmingly are BIGS (7 out of 10). The three guards were Gilbert Arenas (#5), Jason Williams (#6.. but he only played in 16 games), and OH you know that one guy Jason Richardson? Yeah miraculously he hit a career best 103 DRtg (#9 on the team) for the remainder of the season with the Orlando Magic. Yeah, that same Jason Richardson who has been around a 110+ DRtg for the last 5 years and until the trade with Orlando this year was sporting an extremely sub-par defensive rating of 112 with the Phoenix Suns. Interesting.
Milwaukee Bucks # 4 with 102.5
- Again - nobody over 106 DRtg. AND AGAIN 8 out of the top 10 defenders on the team are Forwards or Centers. Brandon Jennings (#7) and Chris Douglas-Roberts (#10) are the guards rounding out the top 10.
Miami Heat # 5 with 103.5.
- Now I could say nobody is over 106 again... but Bibby, Arroyo (107 and 109... and both Guards) and James Jones (107) screwed that up. But I will repeat this - 8 out of the top 10 defenders on this team are BIGS. Wade (#3) and Mario Chalmers (#9) are the exceptions. Do you guys notice a pattern yet?
Let's keep going, this is fun.
L.A. Lakers # 6 with 104.3
- Nobody over 108 and this time 9 out of the top 10 defensive players on the team are bigs. Kobe is the exception (#8).
Dallas Mavericks # 7 with 105.0
- 8 out of the top 10 defensive players are bigs. Jason Kidd (#7) and Dominique Jones (#9) are the two guards.
Philadelphia 76ers # 8 with 105.0
- YAWN. Yet again - 8 out of top 10 defensive players on this team are bigs. Jrue Holiday (#7) and Jodie Meeks (#10) are the two guards.
Memphis Grizzlies are # 9 with 105.1
- This time there is only 1 guard in the top 10 defensive players... 2 out of the top 11. Tony Allen (#3) and Mike Conley (#11).
New Orleans Hornets are #10 with 105.2
- Again 8 out of the 10 top defenders on this team are either Forwards or Centers. Chris Paul (#3) and Marcus Thornton (#9) are the two guards.
I think you get the idea. Good defensive teams have a solid foundation of defensive BIGS (Centers and Forwards).
In case you wanted to know... the Phoenix Suns ranked #25 out of 30 defensively with a rating average of 110.4. Zabian Dowdell was the only guard to crack our defensive top ten. Marcin Gortat was our defensive anchor sporting a team best 106 (yet a career low for him)... it's also notable that in his 25 games with Orlando this year he had an amazing 99 DRtg
I'm not done yet.
Let's show a graphic here - I went through a list from last season of all the players in the NBA (There were 452 total players last year) and checked out where the point guards ranked defensively per their DRtgs. Let's take a look.
Here are my notes regarding this chart.
The first thing to notice - there isn't a single Point Guard in the defensive top 20. In fact, there are only 5 impact points in the top 200 defensive players in the league. Though some of those players you see near the top have great defensive ratings, you should always temper them with how many DWS (Defensive Win Shares) they earn
It's a point I've been harping on forever - if you want a good defensive point guard you will likely be sacrificing the right to have a good offensive point guard. The only two exceptions to this notion are Derrick Rose and Chris Paul highlighted in orange. They are both freaks and I'll have some more notes on them in a bit. The two players highlighted in yellow, Kidd and Nelson are two players who are above average defensively yet a little below average offensively contributing - they're the in-between points in the league. There you have it folks - 2 point guards in the entire league who have both great defense and great offensive ability.
This is where I'll bring Jimmer Fredette back into the picture. I'll repeat my 'perspective' - improving defensively at the point guard should be the last priority. I already admitted that Jimmer did not display any defensive specialty in college. To his defense - like he and his coach and others have pointed out to no avail - he was not expected to play much defense. He played nearly 36 minutes per game this year in a 40 minute basketball game, that's 90% of the game. Monta Ellis led the league in MPG this year with 40.3 in a 48 minute game - that's only 83% of the game. It wasn't that Jimmer was a ball hog on Utah - he averaged a good amount of assists... but HE WAS the offense. So yeah, he didn't show much effort on the defensive end - the team still won 32 and lost only 5 and was ranked nationally in the top 10. So while there are questions of his defensive motivation, there is no question of his offensive ability - except some of those crazy people that say things like this,
One of Fredette's weakness in the NBA will be Finishing At The Rim: Despite showing a nice mid-range game that should translate to the NBA well, Fredette could have trouble finishing in the paint at the next level. While he might be crafty enough to finish over his man, he has struggled at times finishing over help defenders.
Fredette doesn't always have the athletic ability to finish with help coming, so he is forced into double-clutched, circus-style lay-up attempts. This puts the basketball on a tee for the help defense to block it, and if he does get it over the help, there is a small chance the ball actually goes in.
Rajon Rondo? Yeah he's good defensively - but we all see that at times he can almost be an offensive liability. I am also of the tribe that besmirches his assist numbers a bit... because wouldn't we all like to throw passes to K.G., Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. That doesn't mean I don't respect his ability to an effect - he's a top 10 PG in the league no doubt.. but I am bitter that he was chosen over Steve Nash for the All-Star game. I dug a bit into the archives and looked at what people were saying about Rondo before he was drafted...
"Despite his highly intriguing physical attributes and skills, Rondo is anything but a surefire bet to pan out as a starting caliber NBA point guard...
The biggest concern about his game revolves around his perimeter shooting ability...
Rondo is neither incredibly tall, nor strong. His frame looks fairly frail and he could face some issues fighting through screens on the defensive end or finishing strong at the basket offensively until he finds a way to continue to add strength...
Not a surefire NBA point? Interesting.
I'll stop there with all these notes on that chart... but you can see. Steve Nash is/was an All-Star/MVP/Franchise Player, Deron Williams, Tony Parker too - yet they are turrible defensively? Yet each has seen a lot of success and others even achieved championships because they've been a part of teams with good front court defense (Like T.P. with Timmay and Billups with Wallace, etc.).
#2 - Adding Size
What? This is the second part of the SethCoro fable - that adding Jimmer would contradict the goal to add size to the team. I hope when you guys adopt this opinion you mean that the fact the Suns are drafting a point guard instead of a PF or C is the contradiction - because I understand that view. But we all need to understand that drafting is also about filling 'needs' and taking 'the best available player'. Addressing our 'we need a scorer' issue and the future of our PG situation is a 'need' of the Suns and Jimmer fits both of those needs.
What I don't understand is when people say that Fredette is undersized at his position. That doesn't fly with me. The same people that say that are the same who believe he absolutely can't play defense at the next level because he lacks the 'tools' ... lateral quickness is a buzzword I've heard many use. Take a look at his pre-draft measurements up against those of Deron Williams, Stephen Curry and I threw Ty Lawson in there because I think he is the epitome of the new young/strong/quick PG generation taking over the league.
Jimmer is a heavy and strong 6'2" - of the same mold as Williams and taller than Lawson - his Bench Press was only beaten by 5 players during this combine - all 5 were either Centers or Forwards.
He obviously doesn't have the hops as do the others... but it says Williams only has a 35" max vert and he can throw down dunks from time to time - I've seen Fredette dunk it only once on a fastbreak (Youtube it), it was weak but it was a dunk. I've only heard rumors that Steve Nash can dunk - so I'm not concerned about Fredette's lack of vertical leap - he jumped high and quick enough to get his jump shot up and off against anybody he faced in the NCAA.
His wingspan is only an inch or so shorter than Williams and the same longer than Curry's. Lawson's got a small wingspan for a point guard - but we all know he does fine.
What was all that about he lacks lateral quickness? It looks to me that he has the best lane agility time and the 2nd best sprint time out of the 4. He definitely has the 'tools' to defend well, he has the mindset that he wants to prove he can defend - and I wouldn't bet against that.
Here's Andrew Siciliano talking about Jimmer's 'size'.
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Let's just draft Fredette and let Master Nash do the rest of the teaching and discipling
I don't know what to put in my sig.
Great job Eutychus!!!!
You know as one of the few (I think there were five of us last time we counted) Jimmer supporters on this site, I had to come lend an “AMEN” and a “HALLELUJAH” to your very, very well done article!
I wish I could add more to the discussion, but you did such a thorough job that there isn’t much more to say. I guess I could also add that Jimmer’s supposed lack of vertical is also a bit deceptive…Yeah, he’s no Warrick, but have you seen how high he gets up for his jump shots?
Here’s a pic:
Some guys play better than they test…and his game vertical obviously isn’t lacking for much. It really doesn’t matter much anyway for someone who will be playing PG…Sometimes I believe athleticism is judged almost solely on jumping ability, when in fact body control, coordination, agility, strength, speed, and quickness are all just as important.
I stand firmly behind you in saying that I believe Jimmer would be an excellent choice for us at #13 if for some reason he remains available.
I stand firmly behind you in saying that I believe Jimmer would be an excellent choice for us at #13 if for some reason he remains available.
I agree.
I think many people have been harsh on Jimmer because of what happened to Scottie Reynolds.
Of all the draft prospects we’ve gone over, I’d say Byombo, Jimmer and Faried are my top 3. I don’t have a good feeling about those Morris Twins.
Reason is because I think all 3 of those guys have a high ceiling and if they can find the right system to play in, they could possibly reach it. I’d like the idea of Jimmer developing behind Nash for these next 2-3 seasons. I believe Byombo has the potential to be the next Ben Wallace, not right away of course. I feel Faried could come out and be a Lou Amundson right away and then a Dennis Rodman down the road.
Don't trade Dudley!
Jimmer could jump over Reynolds
Reynolds could not jump over Jimmers shoes. Jimmer has a way deeper range than Scottie. I loved Reynolds at Nova but he is not a NBA player. Jimmer on the right team would excel.
I have a pretty good vertical leap for a short guy but ball handling wise I still need to work at it.
I agree that vertical leap isn’t a big deal when you’re a PG. Nash can’t even dunk along with most short PG. The way they control the ball and create spacing and assisting is far more important. The only thing I’m worried about is if he’ll actually develop behind Nash. Didn’t work for Dragic very well and when he went to Houston he seemed to play well again. Rondo even admitted that if he stayed in Phoenix that he wouldn’t be as good today.
Twitter: @FredLegittt
by modernage13 on May 27, 2011 11:31 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah Dragic had a hard time
But Dragic’s style is more along the line of a Ginobili – or even a Westbrook/Rose type PG where he would rather sprint to the rim and use his speed to draw attention, whereas Fredette uses his ball handling (left and right) to maneuver through defenses more along Nash and Deron Williams style.
Dragic crumbled under ball pressure as – Jimmer thrives off on ball pressure, some of his greatest games were games where the opposing team threw everything from fast PG’s to long SF’s at him with full-court pressure.
I think Jimmer can contribute right away with his offensive tools – but developing the vision and pick and roll feel a PG in our system should have is going to take some time and a lot of notes behind Nash.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
never thought I’d say this, Eut. But thanks to this article, here goes: maybe Jimmer will be a quality NBA rotation player.
However, I still don’t see how this Suns team can make him their 1 and only draft pick this season. Just too much bust potential. And the Suns really need a high-potential SG or a PF.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
The perceived 'bust' potential is so strong
only because he’s white. :)
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
Not sure I buy that argument
People want to say that ‘he never played point’ because he was a high volume scorer – or maybe because his assist to turnover ration wasn’t impressive. But I watched the kid play Point Guard for the last 3 1/2 years – his assist and turnover numbers would have been much better had he played for a team with more talent.
He takes the circus 3 shots and drives via iso because HIS percentage of making the shot is the best percentage on the court – his Forwards (BYU didn’t/doesn’t have a C) literally were blocked by the rim on dunk attempts on multiple occasions this year. He has amazing PnR skill because of his ball-handling skills and ability to keep his dribble alive through traffic.
He wants to play PG, if you put him at SG you risk the same defensive drama that the Golden state warriors experienced everyday running a backcourt of Monta/Curry. It will make him look bad – but he’ll still be able to produce, so I’m not sure how that busts him.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
Sometimes I believe athleticism is judged almost solely on jumping ability, when in fact body control, coordination, agility, strength, speed, and quickness are all just as important.
No doubt that’s why Nash despite his lack of vertical is still one of the most athletic players in the game. Jimmer’s body control is insane – that’s why his jump shot is so quick and smooth because as soon as he elevates his body squares up and he is balanced, much like Nash.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
nash has everything but a balanced shot!!!!!
I'm from Chicago. I like the Phoenix Suns more than the Chicago Bulls
by sunsfanfromchitown on May 28, 2011 6:47 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
I mean his upper body, elbows and head are square to the basket though his body might be fading.
by Eutychus Mobil on May 28, 2011 10:04 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Yes, people who are asking for a good defensive and offensive PG are asking for an all-star.
In order to have a great defensive team you have to have a defensive anchor which is usually a big-man. In order to have a great offensive team you have to have an offensive anchor which is usually a PG. That is why they say the PG and C are the most important positions in the NBA.
The Triangle system is an exception. That just demands the greatest SG in the NBA.
Don't trade Dudley!
That kind of makes me feel better about what we could have in these next coming years because those are our 2 best positions.
It all hinges on the development of Gortat. Unlike Robin Lopez, I think Marcin is ready for the expectations were putting on him. He seems to want them too. The guy is hungry and has been waiting for this opportunity. Lopez wasn’t ready, he was still in the earlier development process (learning how to play in the NBA) which is why he failed miserably when we gave him those high expectations. I think Gortat can become our defensive anchor. How long will take till he does? How long does Nash have? Can we surround those 2 with better players?
Don't trade Dudley!
I have a feeling that nash doesn't have very long,
I just hope that I’m wrong…
I'm from Chicago. I like the Phoenix Suns more than the Chicago Bulls
by sunsfanfromchitown on May 27, 2011 9:08 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I think a longer off-season will do him and Grant some good after all the extra effort just to give us a shot at the playoffs.
Surround them with some better players, a good backup for Nash and they could probably play at a similar level for the next 3-4 seasons.
Don't trade Dudley!
Me too -
I’m worried about his health more than anything, his back probs and that weird pubic thing are pretty crazy injuries to have pop up, and as we’ve seen – Nash could still get the job done and dish the dimes, but when he isn’t shooting well the whole team loses confidence.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
imagine
if we had Alvan Adams and Amare playing together… boom chaka laka.
Imagine if we had Connie Hawkins and Paul Westphal on this team…
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
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Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
I was thinking that too..Even better would have been if our front office didn’t drop the ball and traded Ben Wallace to New Orleans at the time to get Tyson Chandler..I guess his toe injury wasen’t as bad as reported..We would have been a better version of the Mavericks today
by Lebrontophx2010 on May 29, 2011 9:13 AM MST up reply actions
great writeup mang
rec’d
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
I think the front office agrees with my sentiment regarding defense and the PG position.
Why else would they have brought Aaron Brooks in?
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
Trade bait maybe?
They knew he had a good season before the injury while Dragic was going downhill so they traded him. Maybe this is a sign that they’re going for a PG in the draft after all?
Twitter: @FredLegittt
well
Here is my sentiment. The suns clearly know they need a dominant big and fast. Even if nash plays till he is 40 there is not a lot of time to develop a big man to make a run with nash. Morris is a baller but if anyone thought he is going to be a dominant nba player then he wouldn’t be drafted 13th. Phoenix drafted 2 power forwards in the second round last year…how did they pan out? Lets be honest, with nash staying we are looking for a quick fix and that will only come through free agency.
A sign that they are pointing in this direction is that the front office was going to give our higher pick away if we made the playoffs. Being a low seed in the playoffs was more important then drafting order.
I would hate to see Brooks go without any sort of return though. Especially since we just traded for him and dropped a draft pick. Man i would love a player with the upside of oj mayo under the tutelage of steve nash and grant hill. Dont know if this is likely or even possible though. A sign and trade would be nice :)
JImmer….everyone is talkign about him cuz he has been WOW on the court. I don’t see why the suns wouldn’t draft a player that is undeniably gifted and ready to contribute. They know they wont find their immediate big in this draft. Last season the suns said they were not looking to rebuild. They always take their chances with trades and free agency.
I think that the Brooks fizzle out might actually make them very hesitant to take Jimmer
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
How ironic is it
that our star PG’s jersey number is 13 and here we are possibly getting a backup/replacement PG at 13th pick haha.
Twitter: @FredLegittt
I didn't get to see much of him
But when I did see him, he looked pretty good, although he didn’t really jump out at me. Was his numbers pretty good in the tournament? How were his teammates as well? I noticed there were a couple of moments where he had a guy open in the lane, but went for the circus shot, which he made. Regardless, I won’t throw a fit if the Suns draft him.
Another thing that I heard someone mention in the comment, that probably should be saved for another post, but I’ll mention it anyways. How truthful is the small rumor that the Suns will try to get Michael Redd?
by Nate_Sun86 on May 28, 2011 4:01 AM MST via mobile reply actions
the kid is injured,
And he sucks!
I'm from Chicago. I like the Phoenix Suns more than the Chicago Bulls
by sunsfanfromchitown on May 28, 2011 6:51 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
the kid is injured,
And he sucks!
I'm from Chicago. I like the Phoenix Suns more than the Chicago Bulls
by sunsfanfromchitown on May 28, 2011 6:51 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Ok euthy he could be a good Offensive PG
I agreed and i believe he would be a sensation in a few years, but hey ? We dont have a few years, we cant wait a few years.
But the most important thing its what Steve Nash been saying all season and summer long
“We need to learn how to play with each other, there are things we are STILL trying to figure out”
So if Brooks just joined, an offensive PG, which by the way was missuse , and we have a defensive PG, lets get a real 4 who can rebound, who can D, we dont need a scoring machine like Randolph, we need offensive schemes and a little help from our SG position to score, we need Lopez to come back alive and sign a good SG/PF.
Stop getting high for a 13 pick who is likely to be useless, PF, C or SG, one of those would be the player we pick and call captain pessimismky he wont get us to the finals .
Do not let Steve Nash and Grant Hill go away, please.
Otherwhise im not buying any tickets from you Saver.
by Lino Canaan on May 28, 2011 8:05 AM MST via mobile reply actions
A player who can shoot the way Fredette does will have a long NBA career.
Maybe as a backup, but he can be a rotation player with just that one exceptional skill. The thing is, if the Suns take him, his role would be to take Aaron Brooks’ spot backing up Nash. We’d either let Brooks walk or sign and trade him if we could. Would Fredette be an immediate upgrade from Brooks, a player who has been an effective NBA starter? Is Fredette’s ceiling higher than Brooks? I’m not convinced of either of those things. So then, what does drafting him accomplish? To Alex’s point above, the Suns have too many other needs.
by East Bay Ray on May 28, 2011 8:33 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
the way u talk about him,
Kyle korver keeps popping up in my head and look how useless he is to chicago!
I'm from Chicago. I like the Phoenix Suns more than the Chicago Bulls
by sunsfanfromchitown on May 28, 2011 8:35 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
I found this scouting report in New York Times
"I think he’ll be a really good pro, but not great," said a Western Conference executive, who would not be named because he is not permitted to talk about prospects. "He’ll be a guy who is a better Steve Kerr, a better Kyle Korver. A better Kapono. Both those guys can’t put the ball on the floor."
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/24/sports/ncaabasketball/24byu.html
There’s nothing wrong with “a better Kyle Korver”, and #13 is about where a guy like that should be taken, IMO. Korver was only useless to Chicago when he hit a cold streak. He has been a valuable role player for them.
by East Bay Ray on May 28, 2011 8:41 AM MST up reply actions
yea bit all hes got to offer for chicago is his shot,
U can’t go on a cold streak for that long!!!
I'm from Chicago. I like the Phoenix Suns more than the Chicago Bulls
by sunsfanfromchitown on May 28, 2011 2:52 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
He was tremendous for the first 2 rounds.
He hit a cold streak because he started playing teams who focused on keeping close and shutting him down.
Kyle basically is their offense when the bench comes in. He runs off a ton of screens and either looks to shoot or dump it down to their big guys if one pops open. ATL and MIA did their homework and understood how much damage shutting Kyle down would do to their offense, and so they focused on him. It’s tough to get going when Dwyane Wade is draped all over you and you can’t get any easy looks.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
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Very good points
but there are so many ‘needs’ with this team 1 pick in the draft will hardly make a dent in any of them.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
This is kind of what I was thinking.
Jimmer would take over Brooks’ role, and I’m not sure he’d be that much of an improvement over Brooks, if any improvement at all. There seems to be other holes (SG / PF) where we could more easily make a sure-fire improvement.
Plus… I know everyone seems to hate the guy, but I don’t want to give up on Brooks. I think he’s a much better player than he showed last year, and I have a feeling we could see that soon.
by iwasneveryoung on May 29, 2011 3:22 AM MST up reply actions
I’m with you on Brooks being a much better player than he showed last year.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
This is a great article. Recc'd.
While I still don’t really want the Suns to draft him, this article definitely made me think about it and I admit that I understand some of your points.
I really enjoyed reading this.
by Dragic_is_Magic on May 28, 2011 11:35 AM MST reply actions
I think our only hope of drafting Jimmer...
Is if Cleveland takes Derrick Williams with the first pick, and Minnesota takes Enes Kanter. If Kyrie Irving is available at #3, I think Utah will take him instead and go with a big at #12. If not then I strongly believe they will snatch the great Mormon hope away from us right before we have a chance to get him. Some mock drafts I’ve seen have Utah taking Brandon Knight at #3, but I just don’t see it.
Jimmer is one of the few truly exciting players in this draft…Yes he has bust potential, but he also has star potential as well. Very few other players besides him actually have this quality in this year’s draft, which is why I am really crossing my fingers that the unlikely happens and we get him.
Hey saw this trade rumor on Twitter:
@Ayusko3: CLE, DET, MIN discusin trade that would giv CLE 2nd pik. Irving and Williams
Twitter: @FredLegittt
hey, follow me back
@ShandyOng
saw that rumor too. I’m wondering why Cle wants to give up their 2nd pick. Can we go for the 2nd pick?
I don't know what to put in my sig.
Followed
Probably wants someone from Minnesota’s or Piston’s roster. Maybe Pistons will be the one that’ll get the 1st pick.
Twitter: @FredLegittt
I heard CLE will have the 2nd pick. Then they'll use that to pick Irving and Williams.
I don't know what to put in my sig.
Saw it too
and the first thing that came to my mind was; “who could they probably want on the pistons team”. Well, we might know soon enough.
Follow me @jatrex, i’ve been trying to get BSOTS members on my TL, especially Alex
Its decision time;
Lets win as much as we need to at least make the playoffs OR suck so bad we get a top 5 pick... i doubt the latter will be possible as some other teams (min, lac etc) made the decision earlier than us...
by jatrex4suns on May 29, 2011 5:49 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
sorry, I’m no good on twitter. I just use it as a news feed to get the latest from reporters… and that’s really it
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
well that's why I question this rumor
apparently, Cleveland gets the 2 in exchange for the 4 and 25 mil of Rip Hamilton; Minny gets the 4 and 8 for giving up the 2; and Detroit gives up the 8 for right to give away Hamilton. That last part makes no sense. I’m guessing Minny or Cle is floating this rumor and Detroit is laughing…
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
that's what I think so too
Det is thinking Cle and Min are crazy
I don't know what to put in my sig.
nice job euty
SLC might not be looking too hard at him.
"Maybe I’m old school," Nash said, "but I signed a contract to play here and I want to honor it. I feel like I owe it to my teammates and the city and everybody to keep battling until they tell me it’s time to go." STEVE (God of Basketball) NASH
In the back of my twisted head
I see the Utah brass NOT picking him so as to prove to the bball world that they won’t give into the demands of the fans – since many experts are frowning on that prospect.
But that’s the homer in me talking.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
Chris Broussard twitter
Detroit won’t do 3-team deal as proposed. Would need to get players back in return for Rip and 8th pick…stay tuned
Not like the Cavs have anything to trade…..except Hickson
by BringBackBarkley17 on May 28, 2011 10:46 PM MST up reply actions
and Jamison
but I guess he’s too old now, maybe good for Boston or Miami though.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
I’d do Lopez for Hickson in a minute..
by Lebrontophx2010 on May 29, 2011 9:07 AM MST up reply actions
lol
that’s exactly what I thought (see comment above)
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
He will be a rotation player, but I was not impressed by his play at all this year
I think Utah will grab Brandon Knight or Kemba Walker at 3, and then Jimmer at 12. This would free Devin Harris and their other pgs to be used as trade bait for other young players. They are probably full out rebuilding, and getting 2 decent PG prospects right at the start would be nice for them.
Normally
I’ll ignore the whole “I was not impressed” thing when there is no substance to back the statement. But I’d like to call you out and have you explain why, seeing as you might be the only person in the sports-world that was not impressed. Usually the people who balk at Fredette recognize what he did at the college level – but doubt what will translate to the next.
Your turn.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
I meant in the tournament: I didnt see him much in the "regular season"
He would often take the 30 foot 3 pointer with 2 guys in his face instead of passing to an open teammate. I dont care how bad your teammates are, but he often did not make the correct basketball play, and this lack of trust of teammates is not a good thing.
In other words, is trust and in a sense his Bball IQ did not seem particularly high.
Yeah, I was impressed with him in general.
But I was at the Creighton game, and he let a lowly MVC PG shut him down. And I too was frustrated with the way he played down the stretch in their tourney loss.
Those 2 games are when I really watched him closely, so maybe that’s why I’m not so high on him.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
If they wanna let go of Hayward,
I’m totally down bringing him here. He’s young though and they’re rebuilding so I doubt they will.
Twitter: @FredLegittt
by modernage13 on May 28, 2011 10:32 PM MST up reply actions
Ack. Screw the defensive improvement crap. Draft Jimmer Chitwood
Every time we do the defensive improvement thing we suck bad, and I’m talking over freakin’ decades. Also, the games are boring as watching dog turds bake in the sun.
Our best years were the ones when we didn’t even attempt to play defense. All it does is slow our offense down.
New York, the other Planet Orange.
by suns68 on May 28, 2011 7:58 PM MST via mobile reply actions
Any chance we acquire Tobias Harris?
Work ethic is way off the charts and he is ICMF Frye’s cousin .. but I don’t know much about his play though. He plays PF, right?
I don't know what to put in my sig.
I've seen his name at 13 on some mocks
- like I’ve said before, this year’s draft is crazy… beyond 2 or 3 NOTHING is solidified as far as the order of the lottery picks. It’s frustrating because that just mirrors the strength of the draft = weak.
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
agree. totally crazy
but a lot of players in the draft can really help win-now teams. they can be used as good role players. and I see only Fredette will come out very strong in his first year.
I don't know what to put in my sig.
Are u serious about him being his cousin?
I'm from Chicago. I like the Phoenix Suns more than the Chicago Bulls
by sunsfanfromchitown on May 29, 2011 7:30 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
I didn't know that.
Cool.
BUt Harris is a tweener forward who is a good defender. I’m not quite sure about his offensive game and how he fits here, but his projected primary position is SF.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
I dont want him
shooters are awesome and all, but if we get a point guard lets get a real one
Channing Frye would NEVER catch flying french fries with his left hand!
are Deron Williams and Stephen Curry not real PGs?
They say "don't swim with the sharks", but I'm faster than sharks so it's not a big deal...
Yeah, I Twitter - @Eutychus12
Deron for sure
Curry is much more of a combo guard
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
My first choice would be Faried
I
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
My first choice is a trade
My second is Faried or Brooks, depending. I think Brooks can play a role immediately, and if his shot is OK, which it should be, he’d be a quality backup to Dudley.
Just depends on who else we get.
by MMotherwell on May 29, 2011 12:28 AM MST up reply actions
I'm hoping
a couple other teams ahead of the Suns overthink it and take a bust player, leaving someone more talented for the Suns. Of course, its a complete crapshoot.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
I really want Bismack Biyombo
only concern is his age. I read on Hoopshype that some scouts think he’s 23-26 instead of his listed 18.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
Jonathon Givony reported that the rumor is bull.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
I think we Robin Lopez and our first round pick maybe able to get Minnesota’s 2nd pick or Cleveland’s 4th pick..If we are to keep our pick I’d trade down and get Marshown Brooks..He would be a great fit on our team he is a big guard who can score in transition..I’ve heard comparisions from Kobe Bryant to Jamal Crawford to Monta Ellis..He’s closer to the Crawford Ellis end of the spectrum..
by Lebrontophx2010 on May 29, 2011 9:06 AM MST reply actions
I'm a Jimmer lover, and not afraid to admit it.
I think what’s most intriguing is that he has the right mentality, and in the NBA, that makes all the difference. As Euty pointed out, some of the premier point guards in the league have been knocked on aspects of their game that they’ve improved at the next level. Even more so, none have been more criticized than Jimmer, even after he impressed at the combine.
That’s my one pet peeve of the draft, they judge you like a science experiment, and not like a basketball player. He can ball, and that’s all there is to it.
I watched Jimmer in person.
I am a BYU student and avid fan, but I’m actually a Jackson Emery fan. (He was our OTHER guard, a good friend of Jimmer’s, and was totally in his shadow.) I didn’t believe that Jimmer was as good as the hype… until I went to the BYU/SDSU game. Jimmer IS the truth. He does have a style of play that MIGHT not make it in the NBA, but he DOES have the quickness that many scouts continue to deny, even after he ranked #2 in the NBA combine for lane agility. Full on speed, he didn’t do stunningly, but not bad. #25 in the combine. Despite being in Utah for studies, and would love to see Jimmer in the NBA, I would rather he go to the Suns than to the Jazz. I really feel it’s a better fit for him, and that Nash would be a great mentor for Jimmer. Eutychus, thanks for sticking up for Jimmer against the clamour.
I dont know if hes ever going to be a startin PG in the league
Im thinking he could be a decent backup combo-guard at best…. maybe like a jason terry type player, he probably wont be as good as terry, but similiar skills
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