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Phoenix Suns Analysis: The Early Returns
by Jim Coughenour on Jan 14, 2012 2:23 PM MST
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PrintThe NBA schedule is in full swing – even if some of the players and/or teams aren’t. The schedule is frenzied. The play has been sloppy. A concomitant circumstance of the truncated, compressed schedule is the frenetic pace and volume of basketball stories and information available. Being an avid fan, I would like to contribute to that glut. Doesn’t anybody else get the feeling that diligently keeping up with the Suns and BSOTS is more of a full-time job labor of love than usual?
The Suns (like the rest of the league) have been a mixed bag. Inconsistency has been the rule. There have been moments exhilarating and intervals despairing. The chat boards have been flooded in turn with elated and crestfallen zealots. That’s a lot like the Suns any year, so shouldn’t it be expected to follow form now?
Here are some early impressions (and depressions – let’s face it, lots of depressions). Not because it’s necessarily an appropriate time to give out an official report card informal critique, but because I have the time today, because I’m sure that at least one other person on this site might be interested in my thoughts, and because some level of catharsis seems prudent after last night’s frustrating performance against the resurgent Cavaliers.
Scoring
The Suns entered the season without a volume scorer. They knew it. We knew it. What has resulted from this infirmity been even more pronounced than most of us would have considered. Consider this:
A Suns player has not led a game in field goal attempts yet this season. In 9 of the 10 games, the opposing team had at least 2 players with as many or more field goal attempts as the leader on the Suns.
Suns opponents have attempted 37 more free throws than the Suns, 3.7 attempts per game. The Suns have only attempted more free throws than their opponent twice. It has been worse recently, as the Suns opponents are +35 fta for the last 5 games – 7 attempts per game.
The Suns have only had three players score 20 points in a game this season (Lopez -21, Nash – 21, Gortat – 22), and none of them has duplicated the feat. So not only have the Suns only had a player score 20 points 3 times in 10 games, but they don’t have a single player who has scored at least 20 twice this season. The Suns are the only team in the NBA who doesn’t have a player who has scored at least 24 points in a game.
All of these deficiencies speak volumes to the effect that not only do the Suns lack a true scorer, they have nothing remotely close to one. Being unselfish is one thing, but the Suns leading scorer is averaging 12.8 ppg. Shannon Brown is leading the Suns in field goal attempts per minute (not counting Telfair or Redd due to miniscule sample size) and is shooting 33.7%. The disdain for Brown’s early season performance, and subsequently his style of play in general, has already been well documented by a large segment of BSers including the controlling authority of a certain powerful coalition. Unfortunately Brown’s paltry shooting percentage isn’t the Mendoza line on the team, that dubious honor belongs to Grant Hill (33.0%) among players with a significant contribution.
Is there hope? Probably not. Nash and Hill used to be more accomplished scorers, but those days are behind them now. Redd could be a salve. He shot without compunction in his first game, jacking up 7 three point shots in only 19 minutes. If he is healthy and can still play there will be no shortage of shots for him due to the deference of his running mates. Gortat seems the other most likely candidate. He’s shooting 62.1% from the field (with an early season injury), which makes me speculate that he’s not forcing a whole lot of shots. The Suns need to get him the ball more and he needs to be more aggressive.
The Suns will struggle with this all season. They may not have a closer on this roster, but right now I’d settle for a couple players who could at least score consistently for the first three quarters and contribute 15-18 per night. Some things will almost surely improve. The Suns are only shooting 32.2% from three point range and have only made double digit threes in one game so far. Those shots will start falling. The Suns will shoot a couple teams out of the building.
Rebounding
Following the status quo, the Suns are once again in need of Windex. The Suns are tied for 3rd to last in rebounding differential (-4.2). They have lost the battle of the boards 8 times in 10 games. They have been outrebounded by at least 8 boards on 6 occasions.
Is anyone else a little consternated by this trend? How are the Suns this bad at rebounding? There is an innate quality involved in rebounding, but a lot of it is effort and execution. The Suns should not be at the bottom of the pile if they are sedulous in their approach to this facet.
Defense
The Suns are ninth in points against (93.2) and field goal percentage against (43.2%). The Suns are tied for 14th in the league in defensive efficiency with 99.5 points per 100 possessions. There has been significant improvement in this category. Kudos to Turner and to the team for their effort. Keep up the good work.
Coaching
Nash is second on the team in minutes per game. The strategy is to limit minutes to keep players fresh for the second half of the season, but Nash is playing the second most minutes…. I have already advocated that Gentry should institute mandatory days off as a way to rest players instead of limiting playing time per game. I still like the idea of a rotation where a different player has the night off every game. I’m probably wrong, but my opinion is that this would be more effective at resting Nash. Whether he plays 25 minutes or 35 minutes he still has to rev up the motor and take some lumps. 66 games at 30 minutes per game or 60 games at 33 minutes per game is the same number of total minutes for the season. What do you think would keep Nash fresher - 3 minutes per game or 6 nights off on back-to-backs?
Since my first idiotic radical idea is unlikely to come to fruition, I hope my second concern is at least addressed. Gentry needs to start finding which combinations of players are effective together and giving them more minutes together and in general. The season is early. Some players are still being test-driven. Before too long, it will come to a point where players who are underperforming (Brown) need to see less playing time and players who are doing well (Gortat, Morris) need more minutes. There is no rule that says Gentry has to give minutes to 10 players every night. Continuing to give playing time to ineffective players just to blindly follow a dogma that 10 players must play between 20-28 minutes a night for salutary reasons does not seem like a successful strategy. After the feeling out stage is over, I really hope Gentry shrinks the rotation to 8 or 9 if he isn’t getting quality minutes from Childress’s checker club.
Player Reviews
Nash – Still playing at an all-star level, however, age is every man’s master. Steve isn’t as much of a scorer as he was in his prime and can’t take over games in the fourth quarter like years past. The area of his game that seems as sharp as ever, distributing, is hindered by the lack of dynamic finishers on the team. Nash’s talent is not being maximized by the current roster.
Hill – While still playing good defense, his atrocious start on the offensive end has already almost assured that he will have his lowest marks for a season as a Sun for field goal percentage and scoring. Eventually everyone hits a wall, this may be Grant’s...
Gortat – He has been the Suns best player this season besides Nash. He does everything a center should – scoring, rebounding, blocks, defense. The only area I would like to see improvement in is becoming more aggressive at looking for his shot. He will need help with this, because he can’t shoot without the ball.
Dudley – So far the Dudley starting experiment has had underwhelming returns. I don’t question the effort, but effort doesn’t always translate into results. Dudley is the epitome of the Suns offensive struggles – leading the team in minutes played, but sagging below recent shooting percentages and only scoring 10.7 ppg. It appears maybe the Suns are asking Dudley to be something he’s not (or giving him an opportunity he’s not capable of taking advantage of). Dudley may well be best suited for a role off the bench where he is only counted on for exuberance and defense, not consistent offense.
Frye – He struggled shooting and was a rebounding dynamo. He regained his touch and was a rebounding dud. Frye is more important to the Suns when he’s spreading the floor than cleaning the glass, but if he could at least put up competent rebounding numbers to go with his streaky shooting it would be a boon. Frye probably won between 5-10 games single handedly for the Suns last year. So far this year by my count it’s 0.
Morris – The rook has impressed. He appears to be fairly NBA ready. He rebounds well and can stretch the court. If things continue as they currently adumbrate, Morris should garner more minutes and even possibly crack the starting rotation soon.
Lopez – Since teasing us with 21 and 7 in the opener, Rolo has been averaging about 3 points and 3.5 rebounds a game. So much for his palingenesis… He’s not getting consistent minutes, but he’s also not doing a whole lot to earn consistent minutes in the time he is playing. Robin remains a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma with his future as a Sun widely in doubt.
Horus – (ancient Egyptian god of sky and war) Despite providing much needed scoring to begin the season, Horus has seen his role begin to shrink. It seems he is not being used to maximum advantage on a team with obvious offensive difficulties. Then again, his defense being a sieve doesn’t help either.
Brown – What can Brown do for you? Stop jacking up Pietrus-esque long range shots and playing out of control. Some of this may be linked to coaching, but it seems that Brown is not playing to his strengths and is instead playing himself right out of the rotation.
Redd – Too early to tell much. We know he can shoot, the question is can he play?
Price – The latest in a long line of back-up point guards to wilt and die in the shadow cast by Steve’s greatness.
Telfair – Lost the battle for back-up point guard minutes to Price. Enough said.
Childress – Loves the bench.
And I’m spent….
I like 7footer's astute recognition of PHXgp's terse statement "the Phoenix Suns looked simultaneously like an aging squad and a young, inexperienced one." I think that nicely sums up not just the loss to the Cavs, but the season in general to this point.
Besides the team’s glaring issues with respect to age, speed, athleticism, scoring, rebounding, and overall talent things don’t really seem too bad.
The Suns are an Eric Gordon jumper away from being a .500 team. It is possible the Suns are on the precipice of a meteoric rise where they will produce galvanic, coruscating statistics that will offset the woeful early returns and bring the total picture back to a much sunnier disposition. Risen from the ashes, so to speak. 10 games is still a small sample. The Suns are getting their legs. Players need to settle into defined roles. Rotations need to be set. The problem is that every other team is facing the same obstacles, so just as the Suns have a chance to improve as the season progresses, so does everyone else.
I still think this team will compete for a playoff spot. The Nash era Suns have always had flaws. Most of the previous versions just had more areas of strength. These Suns are doing good things like playing more stalwart defense and taking care of the basketball (7th in turnovers). I’m not always the most sanguine person. Tomorrow’s promises don’t put food on today’s plate. But I’m also not ready to count out Steve and the Suns just yet.
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I agree with your assesment of the season so far (as far as players go) although you didn’t mention everyone that gets minutes. Looking at it it just looks like you forgot about Warrick hahaha.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Warrick = Horus
Jim is doing his best to spread the nickname he dubbed Warrick with.
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It might be a tie-in to the Warrick/WarMachine thing.
God of war, ya know?
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Horus is also the God of Sky
in addition to War. It’s loosely tied together through the warmachine, Warrick’s skinny face and goatee, the sky thing, ad infinitum….
Just picture Warrick dressed up as a pharaoh for Halloween.
The sky aspect is germane since Warrick has about 6 of the 9 dunks by the Suns this year (I think the Suns almost average a dunk a game).
The tandem of Horus and Morris sounds good. I agree that it isn’t quite catchy – “He just went Egyptian on his ass!” doesn’t have quite the same ring as medieval….
Maybe they could be War and Peace?
It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.
by Jim Coughenour on Jan 15, 2012 11:32 AM MST up reply actions
I think it worked better before he shaved off the goatee.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
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Great analysis, Jim and a rec for the good work...
I definitely agree we got a lot of holes, but I have faith this team will overcome the obstacles.
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
04-05 Bulls
Eddy Curry was their leading scorer at 16.1 ppg. 3 other guys averaged in double digits. They were a deep team like us filled with a bunch of role players and an almost all-star. They also started the season out very poorly (0-9) before they turned things around. They won 47 games and made the playoffs for the first time in 7 years.
We share some similarities, yet the differences between them and us are what will likely keep us out of the playoffs.
1. They were young.
2. They were an ELITE defensive team.
3. Ben Gordon wasn’t a star, but he was good enough that he could fool you into thinking he was. The guy was clutch and capable of creating his own shot.
I want and I don’t want to give up on this team (I don’t get it either). They could still turn things around. However, I picked them out of the playoffs and I still stand by that prediction. They have the potential to be an 8th seed, but do they have the time and health to reach that potential before it’s too late?
Don't trade Dudley!
We don't have a guy
who is clutch and can get his own shot.
Unless Redd finds his legs, his wind, and his post game.
Voted most likely to say "I told you so"
Gotta love Redd
He looks like a 45 year old playing out there lol
by forget on Jan 15, 2012 1:33 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Rec!
And I don’t want to give up on them yet, either. But if they’re going to lose, i want them to at least be fun. If Shannon were skywalking, that’d be one thing. For the most part, Nash continues to be a treasure to watch, but when the other team traps him hard, I get the feeling I’m watching my daughter’s junior high team, the one that can never get the ball past halfcourt and gets buzzed by every other team, as the taller, more athletic girls seem to run layup drills against us during the game. We were behind 34-3 at half two games ago. She’s my daughter and I’ll go and watch, but ouch…
by SteveNash, QuantumPhysicist on Jan 14, 2012 8:10 AM MST reply actions
I see games like that every weekend.
In fact, I keep score and run the clock for them. I feel your pain. The difference is I get paid, though.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
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Have your girls run the press
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/11/090511fa_fact_gladwell – when kids lack skill, take the skill out of the game. There just aren’t many kids that can handle the ball, and I still think that only one things is more fun than winning, and that is winning when no one expects you to!
Plus, the press is tiring, meaning the kids get more chance to run, and more players get to play, Win-Win-Win.
by MMotherwell on Jan 15, 2012 12:04 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
The problem is,
at that level, and depending in the players you have, a press can just let the other team score quicker.
I watched a coach lose a game because he told his players to press even though they didn’t have the players to do it.
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The trick is to play it exclusively, and coach it in practice. You can;t just throw it out there, or indeed, you’ll just lose even worse.
by MMotherwell on Jan 15, 2012 12:08 AM MST up reply actions
The trick also is to not have Caleb, Nathan, and Justin as your front line.
HG is a tiny, tiny school. We have to combine grades and beg CCD kids to play just to field a team. We can’t exactly be choosy with the “talent” on the teams.
he team I mentioned has 2 good players, who are guards. They are responsible for 90-95% of the points. They also are the two that I have play up on my team (they are 5th graders, I coach 6th grade).
Actually, today was a bad day for me. The 5th graders were scheduled to play at the same time as my 6th graders, so I only had 5 players because the 2 I mentioned were at their 5th grade game. So we had no subs, and played a team with a pair of twins who are 5’9" and 5’10" and know how to make a lay-up. Even worse, when I sent 3 or 4 into the box to try to stop them, they had a knock-down spot-up shooter who didn’t miss all game. Even worse, the refs only called over-the-back 2 times all game. I hate it so much when refs don’t call over-the-back. What are these kids supposed to do if they aren’t getting rewarded for boxing out?
Sigh… rant over.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
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Man, you gotta rough up those big kids!
At that age, most big kids are pillow soft. Gotta get your guys to play physical, and give them a few elbows! Those big guys will fold!
by forget on Jan 15, 2012 1:10 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Well, the one time my brother (5’4" PG, 13.6 ppg, 4 apg) built up enough courage/frustration to attack them, he got knocked down, hit the ground hard, and came up crying.
Also, did I forget to mention they are football players and one of them apparently won some kind of national wrestling tournament?
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still have to be physical with them
its you’re only chance against guys like that lol.
So we had no subs, and played a team with a pair of twins who are 5’9" and 5’10" and know how to make a lay-up.
Did you see a Suns scout at the game?
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Nope,
but I did see a Hawks scout at the Creighton-Northwestern game earlier in the year. Keeping my eyes out for anyone representing the Suns.
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I've pressed
It’s not easy. It takes a lot of energy. If it wasn’t the game plan to press, I’d still press because I couldn’t do anything on offense anyway, so I might as well expend all my energy on defense. Every game, I’d take the opposing teams PG and I’d wear him down. I wouldn’t give the guy a break. I wouldn’t wait until he got to half court. As soon as he got the ball, I’d be on him like a leech.
Don't trade Dudley!
I wish Price would do that more
I think the NBA lets teams off to easily – and the Varejao press on Nash that made us take a TO shows the value of it – and Price is so athletic, he could really pester a lot of PGs. They’d hate 12 -18 minutes of intense pressure, and Price should really harass them.
Yeah, I've thought about it this too
I still can’t find a good explanation for why Coaches don’t use it more.
My own theory is that it’s a combination of energy and matchup issues. Even though Price can’t do anything offensively, he’s still the PG and needs to try his best to set up plays.
I wasn’t the PG on my team. I was the SG. Our team didn’t have a PG or a C. We had two Point-forwards and so I was able to get away with pressing due to the versatility of our team. If we did have a PG, then I probably wouldn’t have been able to switch off of the SG to guard their PG to due to matchup issues. I sure wish we had a center though. We didn’t do too bad, we did miss the playoffs, but we were above .500.
Don't trade Dudley!
extended thought
A good example of when we should have used the press was 07 vs the Spurs.
Nash could switch off to Bowen and Marion to Parker. Coach D should have had Shawn full-court press Tony Parker. Maybe it would have made a difference, maybe not because Parker could still pass to Ginobli who could make plays, but than again, Bell was on him. It certainly would have been worth a shot, but it was Coach D…
Don't trade Dudley!
CYO rules say 5-6 graders can only press in the 4th quarter, unless you have a 15-point lead.
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http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2012.html – Phoenix is 22nd on Drtg, and 11th in Ortg, and have a positive differential.
How are the Suns this bad at rebounding?
It is the defensive scheme we are using – it leaves bigs open and/or on matched up against wings. I’m not convinced the scheme works, but I do know it is killing our rebounding.
Nash is second on the team in minutes per game.
I’m not sure team ranking is a good measure. Compare Phoenix to Boston and we have one player over 30 mpg (dudley) , and the Celts have 4. I think, of all the things we have done well, limiting minutes has been the best.
by MMotherwell on Jan 14, 2012 8:44 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
The scheme is fine,
its the personnel that’s the problem. Our perimeter defenders include Steve Nash (slow), Jared Dudley (slow), Shannon Brown (bites on every fake), and Sebastian Telfair (too small). At any given moment, at least 1 of these guys is one the floor.
As a result, our bigs are doing a LOT of rotating to stop the ball, which leaves them unable to also box out if/when the shot goes up.
Voted most likely to say "I told you so"
Which I believe is what he's referring to when he says the scheme.
The scheme is to have the bigs rotate over to help because our perimeter defenders can’t stay in front of their men.
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The Celtics play a similar scheme and don't have that problem
because Rondo and Allen can stay in front of their guys.
Voted most likely to say "I told you so"
So the scheme is bad then?
Does Boston really play this scheme? I haven’t seen many of their schemes, but this scheme is so complicated, I can;t believe a coach would implement it without a full training camp.
Boston plays several schemes
and they switch between them based on matchups or just to throw different looks at players.
The scheme isn’t so complicated – the perimeter guys are just trying to force everything to the corners by playing hard to the middle side, and the big is waiting behind, while the other side guy is looking to rotate in.
Voted most likely to say "I told you so"
Rewatch a few plays
The bigs get lost frequently.
Yes.
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No I don't think we'll make the playoffs
I’m hoping we get lucky in the lottery and sign a 2 like Gerald Wallace. Then maybe Nash will want to stay and finish off his career here.
"Clearly the Brewers didn't realize that going into Beast Mode raised their testosterone levels."
by tcyoung
Gerald Wallace has never been a 2
He’s a 3/4 and we could have gotten him before Portland snatched him up for parts. Wish we did, but I think that ship has sailed. With his style of play, he won’t hold up much longer.
"The Knicks with the swiss cheese defense.
...Vince Carter likes cheese." -Walt Frazier
He reportedly won't sign an extension with POR and will be a FA this year.
You are right about him getting older, and he was never very durable to begin with because of his style of play. The man is called Crash fro a reason. However, he has steadily improved his all around game over the last few years. Signing him would be a gamble. It could pay off and he could still be very good for the next 3, 4, 5 years. But do we want to continue going after older guys?
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Yes
We want to do EVERYTHING we can to win.
Also, you never know what will happen, but with that much cap space, we might be able to convince Orlando to trade us D12, for the privilege of taking back Hedo of course. they’s want Gortat but, by all means sir – here you go!
Nash would be the first quality PG D12 has ever played with, and the two of them would make us primed to sign another big FA like, I dunno, Deron or, even better, Westbrook (he’d be an awesome 1/2).
Are, the joys of self deluded fantasy :)
by MMotherwell on Jan 15, 2012 12:07 AM MST up reply actions
We cannot trade back for Hedo yet
NBA rules prohibit “tradebacks” for 1 year after the initial trade.
Voted most likely to say "I told you so"
FO failures
are the suns going to make a mid season trade out of desperation, again? I am confused with gentry’s offence; greenlight to sub-par shooters. or our bigs hanging out at the three poing line (almost like he just allows them to play what they want, everyone gets a trophy). It seems to me that Nash’s incredible ability to create causes palyers to get lazy.
are the suns going to make a mid season trade out of desperation, again?
No – they are building towards cap space next year.
well, you can only do so much in one summer of free agency though. It might behoove the Suns to trade a good player (if the team is doing poorly next month) for a #1 pick in a great draft. Any #1 pick is better than nothing, and might help the rebuild for the future. Guys like Leonard and Marshon Brooks were available this year in the second half of the draft, and next year’s is a LOT deeper. A Morris type might be available in the 20s, too.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
of course, this is only if the season goes from bad to worse
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Kawhi Leonard was taken at #15, wasn't he?
Wouldn’t that make him in the first half of the first round?
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just as technically as you missing my point by arguing wording… :)
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
It's what I'm here for.
I got your point, I just chose to ignore it.
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Or a bust
The last draft everyone called deep was the Durant/Oden draft, and there were lots of busts.
I hate to be the naysayer on this, but once we suck, it won’t be one draft and back – Only a Lebron can do that, and there are no Lebron’s in this draft. Cap space and wise drafting is the recipe for long term success, just ask OKC, who traded cap space for 3 1st rounders (2 from us and one from San Antonio)
Those picks netted Serge Ibaka, BJ Mullens and Cole Aldrich – one (massive) hit and two misses, which shows you need to be in it (e.g., have a lot of draft picks) to win it.
The worst part of all this in my opinion
is that there are no signs of improvement for the future. Sure, Markieff looks like a good player, but his ceiling to me is a great role player in the right system.
Our ownership and front office has not laid out a consistent plan for the present and future. There has been way too much turnover in the front office and that only speaks to employee dissatisfaction and hatred of the owner, regardless of what they may say publicly when they leave.
Obviously this isn’t all Sarver’s fault. Many years we have been above the tax and underachieved. But looking at the salaries for next year, we look to have a ton of mid-tier talent making 6 million a year….What free agent would want to come here to play with Dudz, Gortat, and Frye.
I’m preparing for a very very dark period of Suns fandom. I won’t jump ship, but I’m not forced to like it…..I just don’t see a great way out, given previous history the last few years. Too little faith in ownership.
by ArizonaCactus on Jan 14, 2012 8:48 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
??
I’m not sure any of that is true. Eras end. The expectation that you can just go from Jordan to Hakeem in back to back eras is just not reasonable.
and underachieved
I’m not sure we’ve ever really under-achieved – maybe Shaq’s second year, but no other year.
What free agent would want to come here to play with Dudz, Gortat, and Frye.
Free agents have, almost without fail, taken the best offer available. The myth of a “good place to work” is just not true, so at the very least, I wouldn’t worry about that.
Next year, we’ll have this roster: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/phoenix.htm
Marcin Gortat, Josh Childress, Channing Frye, Hakim Warrick, Jared Dudley, Robin Lopez and Markieff Morris
We can amnesty one (JChill more than likely) and we don’t need to offer RoLo a contract. I can imagine a few players that would come here for max money, and a team that adds to max free agents to that roster, and signs Nash and Hill for minimum contracts, is a solid championship threat.
So, have hope, because the Suns have about as good a plan as can be hoped for – as all BBall rebuilding plans rely on luck.
nice mediator MMotherwell
there is a lot to be positive about. We just went through this with the Cards so probably just bumed a bit. I do see the FO maybe picking up a nice piece before the deadline giving us a decent run, hopefully.
Well, we didn't win a championship
So we did underachieve.
There’s no easy way to fix this team, signing some FA for the max certainly won’t be enough. I’m afraid that we might be in for a rough couple of seasons…
by forget on Jan 14, 2012 10:07 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
True
I didn’t think of not winning a title. We never had luck, but then we also needed a little too much.
by MMotherwell on Jan 14, 2012 11:54 PM MST up reply actions
It's hard to say we underachieved when the team just didn't have luck on their side.
I mean, some things are just out of our control. JJ’s injury(05), Bell’s injury(06), Hill’s injury (08) and Amare’s injury (09). It’s not our fault that the players got hurt. They were just accidents.
Alright, perhaps someone could put some blame on Coach D for not resting Hill after he got that injury that eventually kept him out of the Spurs series, but we weren’t going to win it that year with that team anyway. They needed more time to adjust and there just wasn’t enough time.
In 2010 we actually played to our potential and got as far as we could. The Lakers were a better team than us with or without a healthy Bynum. According to me they reached their potential, but according to the media they more than reached their potential.
If there was a season in the Suns era where someone could argue we underachieved, it was 06-07. The team was healthy for the most part and were certainly good enough to win the title. In fact, it was the “Eyes on the Prize” year. The goal from the start was to win the Championship. Steve Nash even said that if they didn’t win they’d feel like they underachieved. Then the Suspensions happened. You could say Amar’e and Diaw were just going off of natural instinct, or you could blame them for not having any self control or you can blame Coach D for not reminding them of the rule. Point is, they did have some control there yet they screwed up and made a mistake that cost their team a title. They were indeed good enough to beat Dallas, Detroit and SA in a 7 game series that year. I thought they were best team. They just failed to prove it because of a stupid mistake.
Other then that season, it was just bad luck I suppose.
Don't trade Dudley!
i just think they weren't good enough
whether it was physical or mental, they just didn’t have it. I don’t like blaming it on bad luck.
you make your own luck to a certain extent.
So it's Grant's fault that he's not a superstar anymore because he got hurt?
you make your own luck to a certain extent.
This can apply to 06-07, but not the other seasons. I
Don't trade Dudley!
Basketball is a sport where you need a LOT of luck. It is almost impossible to win a title without all of your best 6 fit and healthy (ask Miami).
With some luck we’d have won a title. Without it, we got bumpkiss.
Yep.
Luck is incredibly important to success no matter what you’re doing in the NBA. You need a certain amount of luck in FA, you need a bunch of luck in the draft, and you need luck to win a championship. Things just have to go right for you.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
it may be. lol check out this part from Bill Simmon's book.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4746227
its at the bottom of the article.
Dallas won without Caron Butler last season, Miami got to the Finals without Haslem being healthy.
In my mind, excuses are for losers. you either win or you don’t, there’s no sense in whining about having bad luck and stuff like that.
Caron Butler wasn’t that good. He was on the decline at that point. He was just a role player. He wasn’t even a top 6 player in Dallas and that team was loaded.
As for the Heat? Final appearances are way overrated because it doesn’t always mean you’re the 2nd best team. Sometimes it just means you either got lucky with the matchups or your conference sucks.
Yeah, no excuses. Those Nash teams didn’t make excuses. They still went out there and gave it their all. We do control our own luck to a certain extent, but sometimes things just happen that are out of your control and all you can do is give it your best.
With that said, perhaps we did underachieve more than once. Coach D could have played more guys and we could have still won when players got hurt. With the exception of 05 though. That was just out of our control. Joe Johnson played every game of the season and the playoffs up till that point. He was too important. It’s no surprise that we lost without him, but the team didn’t make excuses. They still went out there and gave their best shot.
Don't trade Dudley!
Ya, 15ppg, 4 rebs, 45% fg, 43% 3pt isn't that good
Losing him was a pretty big deal, they had to play freakin Peja because himself was out lol.
Umm and the heat beat the celtics and bulls…not exactly a cake walk haha.
Every team has its bumps in the road, u just gotta deal with it
by forget on Jan 15, 2012 7:33 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Well, MIA had for my money the two best players in the game, so they could afford to lose one of their role players.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
Of Course excuses are for losers
No one needs to make any excuses when they win!
by MMotherwell on Jan 15, 2012 6:59 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
rec
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
We won't let Lopez just walk
we’ll either trade him midseason or make him a QO.
Voted most likely to say "I told you so"
I'd let him walk
If it meant getting D12.
This is where things get tricky
I can imagine a few players that would come here for max money
Who?
I can’t see Deron and Dwight coming here, and the rest of the top FAs are all restricted, which means that their teams will match unless we overpay, which seems like a bad idea. I would have no problem throwing a max contract at Kevin Love, but I think Minny will match. I don’t know if Westbrook is worth the max, but that’s what it’ll take to get him out of OKC. Same with Gordon and NOH.
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Oh yeah
We would definitely have to overpay someone.
by forget on Jan 15, 2012 11:36 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Not true
Seriously, FA take the best offer, so make the best offer to the best.
right, we would have to make the best offer.
that means going over some team’s reasonable offer lol. before you know it, you’re caught in a bidding war with a team and you end up overpaying some guy by 10-20 million lol
Not true
There is a max you can offer, and there is no chance in hell you over pay anyone 10-20 mil, certainly not in a season.
I was talking over the course of a contract
Like instead of like a 4 yr 40 mil u have to offer 4 yr 50 mil.
by forget on Jan 15, 2012 7:19 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Who?
Whoever gets offered the most by Phoenix. FAs almost always take the maximum. All this talk of LA and Dallas getting Deron and DWIll – no way in the world that NJN help them make that happen.
Dallas has capspace, but only for one. Why can;t we get both, and why wouldn’t coming here be preferable to Dallas?
Well..
dallas has dirk, and a great owner that will do whatever it takes to win…plus dallas is a larger market than phx.
And there is a salary cap
They can afford ONE max FA – and two “almost max” FAs if they waive Odom. We can afford 2 max, and two max and an $8 miul if we amnesty JChill and don;t offer RoLo a QO.
Seriously, it is good news!
yeah, it’s like a whole team to play along with a re-signed Nash.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 16, 2012 11:58 AM MST up reply actions
Plus, pretty solid remaining players left with all that space (if Chill gets the A)
Gortat – Above average starting C
Morris – Young and promising PF
Frye and Dudley – Above average bench guys
Warrick – Warrick
BAMF goes HAM.
The amount of turnover on the FO is puzzling.
I don’t think there’s any doubt that sarver is one of the worst owners in the league, so that might have something to do with it.
by forget on Jan 14, 2012 10:12 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I think
Kerr just didn’t have to put up with not going 100%. He has a lucrative career as a broadcaster – why GM for a team that has concerns beyond just BBall (like, you know, managing money)? Could only hurt his reputation to stick around and rebuild – and rebuilding is HARD.
When a guy leaves, his guys either go with him, or get moved up. As no one got moved up, they left.
That’d be my take, but I could be WAAAYYY off base.
by MMotherwell on Jan 14, 2012 11:56 PM MST up reply actions
You just proved the guy's point
Kerr didn’t want to deal with all of the other garbage.
colangelo and Kerr left on their own…
by forget on Jan 15, 2012 1:00 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Not really
Kerr didn’t want to deal with difficulty. Almost every team has that. Try being Utah’s GM.
I’m not sure Kerr has a driving passion to be GM. I’m sure he liked it, but I’m not sure it is his only desire.
The worst owners are the ones who don’t care, or interfere like Heisley and Sterling.
Sarver cares, he just has strict, and I think reasonable, limits. Kerr proved he is a good GM – and can now enjoy the game as a broadcaster on teh same money with no stress, and wait for a plum job to be offered to him, if then decide if he wants to even be a GM.
Sarver doesn't interfere?
He sold all of our draft picks, refused to pay joe Johnson, and he was one of the owners who drove for the lockout. During his entire ownership, he’s made horrible mistakes. He’s the reason we didn’t win a championship with those great teams.
by forget on Jan 15, 2012 11:40 AM MST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
True, he made one really good move and we all know what it was
Totally luck though. Nobody expected a 30 year old Nash to get better and make this team a contender. Sarver for the most part has made a lot of stupid moves.
He does care, he’s not the worst owner out there. He’s just not good at making basketball decisions. Also, 4 GM’s in 7 years is ridiculous. We can’t excuse Sarver for that. I just don’t think the guy is cut out to be an NBA owner. He had multiple opportunities to get this team a title and failed again and again.
I still can’t get over trading Kurt Thomas and 2 1st round picks for capspace when the team was trying to win a Championship! Who does that? Most teams in that position would be trying to go all in, but Sarver was doing the opposite. Especially coming off of a dramatic series in which we only lost because our star player got suspended. Who does that?
One could even say the same about 2010. Who refuses to sign one of their star players when their franchise player is 36 because of injury issues, yet replaces him with a 31 year old SF, a 28 year old who hasn’t played an NBA game in 2 years and a decent role player for the same price, all each with a long-term contract? He threw away two years of competing for a title because of that. Not only that, but he wasted two valuable years of his franchise star. Again, his franchise player was 36 years old. Who does that?
Don't trade Dudley!
by Beavis 25 on Jan 15, 2012 1:54 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
i completely agree
he just didn’t go all in, haha i think thats the only way to say it.
He doesn't interfere
He has requirements for staying on budget – there is a difference.
If you are GM, your choices are keep the 1st rounder OR sign Marcus Banks (actually, we had Salmons all signed up – the PRICK).
That isn’t interfering, that is setting conditions. Where you work, do you get everything you want? I run my own business, and when I wanted a new computer, but had a budget. That is what Sarver sets for player payroll and operating costs.
I have no problem with that, because I don’t think Sarver makes millions a year profit on the Suns, like Sterling does, and instead aims for around break even.
YMMV, but I think Sarver has done a good job keeping a team in a small, VERY crowded pro-sports market in good shape, even if that has hurt our team on the court more than a few times.
he was selling our draft picks!
how is that not interfering? haha. no one does that, only us! i don’t think its that unreasonable to want to keep draft picks lol
the suns are the number one team in this state. no doubt. they aren’t the one’s struggling in the economy, that would be the yotes and d-backs. well i guess not the d-backs because they just have a lower pay roll when no one comes to the games lol.
Sarver is just too poor to run this team. i hate that he bought the suns, i hope he loses his money so he has to sell. Well, not all of his money, haha just enough so he can’t run the suns anymore.
I don't see how you can defend giving away picks like we did
We had the players to get a title (and the league was in a perfect state for us to run at a title) and he sold off going all in for some extra cash to save. Obviously this isn’t my money but in my opinion if you own a team and aren’t willing to go all in you need to get the hell out of the sports ownership business. Championships are so rare and it is crazy not to go for it all when you are completely capable of that.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Do you have $600 million?
I don’t. If I had Sarver’s miney – which if memory serves was made mostly in banking. I dunno about you, or anyone else, but even if I had millions, I’d want my NBA team to break even, because I’d rather do what Gates did, and stop malaria.
That aside, Sarver F’d the Suns as an oncourt product – no defence AT ALL. However, he did not F the Suns as a team – they are still in Phoenix, been competitive for most of the last 10 years, and haven;t been sold to the NBA like NOLA, or moved like Vancouver.
Those are wins in my book, especially because, if it was my money, I’m not sure I’d have done anything different.
Fair enough
But if it means bringing a championship to a franchise without one you should try to do that IMO. If you can’t afford to at least go for it for a year or two then you really shouldn’t own a team. What is the point of owning an NBA team if you are only aiming to break even as the #1 goal.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
So what your saying is you would have sold your draft picks for cash
and then traded your only center and two first round picks for more cash when your team is trying to win a championship?
Don't trade Dudley!
No
I’m saying I’d try to cure Malaria :P
wow, sorry I missed this discussion. Sorry for not being here to help, Motherwell.
Folks, Sarver did not walk into the room telling the GM to trade draft picks.
First, Bryan C traded the “Deng/Iggy” pick because we had too many kids on the team already, and wanted cap space to sign Nash/Q.
Second, Mike D didn’t want any more kids if they were only #23+ because they wouldn’t be talented enough to crack the 8-man rotation. David Griffin told a reporter this during the 2009 offseason, how hard it was to give away picks to stash money for end-of-bench guys Mike wouldn’t play anyway. Yes, it was short-sighted to give away rookies who could develop later, but isn’t that the job of the GM to explain the merits to his owner? Mike D was the GM, then NBA rookie Kerr.
Third, Sarver certainly (and stupidly) told Kerr to trim payroll in summer 2007. Kerr chose KT, but was convinced by fellow rookie GM Sam Presti that he had to send 2 unprotected #1s along with KT. I cannot imagine any scenario in which Sarver walked into Kerr’s and said “Send Kurt and 2 #1s to Seattle, right now!”. The only thing that makes sense is that Presti sold Kerr on it.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Look, Sarver is a stupid NBA owner (though a very smart individual, and apparently avid NBA fan). He is short-sighted, looking only at this year’s bottom line at a time.
However, all I’m saying is that it makes no sense that Sarver cooked all this crap up by himself, except for the summer of 2010. Mike D and Kerr contributed to those stupid decisions until then.
Now, summer of 2010 was a complete, utter disaster after not guaranteeing Amare 5 years. Hedo, Warrick and Childress… Sarver has no one to blame but himself, and Gentry.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
what gm would want to give away picks?
his job is on the line, he wants as many good players as possible! Sarver has been behind all of this, there is no other explanation haha.
lol
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 16, 2012 12:32 PM MST up reply actions
i don't understand what's so funny.
your explanation makes no sense
How does it not make any sense?
The GM gave the picks away because the owner told him to cut salary, and that was the best way Kerr could figure out to do it.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
Haha, that's what I said
That other guy was saying that giving away the picks was the GM’s idea.
He’s basically saying its not all sarvers fault, which it pretty much is lol
by forget on Jan 16, 2012 4:48 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
"Fault" is a weird word
Look at Memphis, lots of teams have budgets, and I think that is fair.
Unfortunately, when we trade KT only ONE team had room for him – ONE. What is the saying about supply and demand?
To me it really doesn't matter if he didn't cook it all up himeslf
He allowed it to go through. I am sure he didn’t set out to send out all our draft picks like he did but it happened and he was owning the team through the whole process. He gave quality players away to save some extra cash instead of essentially ensuring a title for Phoenix. I know it wouldn’t have 100% happened but with a pick or two and KT we would have won a title if you are asking me. We also wouldn’t be in this current hole right now with old guys and a bunch of bench players.
Sarver had the chance to win it all and chose to downgrade the team so he could come out without losing any money.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Of course he did!
We’ve been doing it throughout his tenure as
by forget on Jan 16, 2012 4:49 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Owner. Who else would want to give away that many picks?
by forget on Jan 16, 2012 4:51 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
That was a mistake
But remember, we had John Salmons all signed up and the prick reneged – to play with SACRAMENTO! Salmons would have been an AWESOME signing.
Eh, maybe
We already had Bell and Barbosa. Should have gone after an athletic big.
Maybe we could have traded Kurt and 2 first round picks to 33 year old Camby before he got that DPOTY award.
Don't trade Dudley!
Oh, I'm referring to 06, not 07
I don’t think Salmons or Banks was worth it. We needed an athletic big and maybe they should have tried to deal Kurt Thomas and 2 first round picks then instead of trading them for nothing the following season.
However, Coach D was the GM and Sarver was the owner, so no wonder they didn’t think about all the options.
Don't trade Dudley!
Well...the dude did say "GOD" told him to
You can’t argue when people use the G word to back their decisions up
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
I'm not claiming that he did
I’m well aware it was partly Kerr and Coach D’s fault.
Don't trade Dudley!
It was all their fault is what I'm saying
Sarver is still the boss though. The blame all comes back to the guy in charge.
Don't trade Dudley!
Blame?
Come on, he kept the team competitive all that time. Amazing, considering what Memphis did and went through.
He did, but it was mainly because of Nash
Think about it. A 30 year old PG signed to a 6 year 60 million contract. That could have been terrible. Such a lucky move.
Sarver did an OK job because he got lucky with Nash, but the point is to still win a title and he didn’t everything he could.
Don't trade Dudley!
But all the bad moves – the ones people hate – were AFTER Nash was here. I’d rather have been a Suns fan the last 5 years than Memphis or the Clippers or Sacramento – that’s all I’m, saying!
Me too
I’m grateful that Sarver at least cares and that we were a contender, but we can’t deny bad moves. The reason we bring them up again is so we don’t make the same mistake twice. Can’t settle for anything less than a Championship when the opportunity is there to get one and it looks like Sarver has done that twice now.
Don't trade Dudley!
We all think that because it isn't our money
How much of your life savings would you donate to a Suns championship? Think of it that way.
I have
If he can’t afford to go all in when the team is contending, then he shouldn’t have bought them.
Still, even with his budget, he didn’t have to trade Kurt and 2 first rounders. He could have traded Banks a long with Tucker and a first round pick to shed salary. He wanted to cut 10 mil. Banks plus Jones and Tucker might have come up to 10 mil or at least close to it. Both he and Kerr could have done better.
Don't trade Dudley!
Not true
We needed to clear exactly $8 million to be under the Luxury line.
Banks (4) Tucker (1) wasn’t enough. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2008.html Jones wasn’t on that roster.
We traded Jones and a 1st round pick to Portland for chash
It was 10 mil, Sarver wanted to cut. Kurt plus Jones was 10 mill.
Don't trade Dudley!
you’re kidding right?
There were no bad trades under Colangelo? Are you kidding me?
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
I didn't say there weren't
The majority of Sarver’s moves have been bad for the most part and he continues to make the same mistakes.
Or a better way to put it is that he made only one, really good move due to luck and a few really bad moves due to decision making.
Perhaps the Gortat trade could turn out to be a really good move for us? Sarver still has an opportunity to redeem himself starting with next off-season, but we’ll just have to wait and see.
Also, I wasn’t a Suns fan prior to Sarver, so I don’t have that nostalgia kind of love for Colangelo. The guy didn’t get the job done either and he had even more opportunities than Sarver.
I’m not sure if your question was directed at me? It’s hard to tell, too many comments:D
Don't trade Dudley!
I think the goal should be
to win a championship.
Since the Suns are 0 for the franchise history, that means the ownership has failed the fans.
Anyone who owns a professional sports franchise and doesn’t have the goal of winning a championship doesn’t deserve the privilege. And yes, I do see it as a privilege.
Different owners do have different limitations, but the attitude that excuses failure within a sports franchise is an attitude that deserves to be rewarded with apathy and continued incompetence.
Fans should not have an inferiority complex or accept a bad product. It is not acceptable. It is not ok. The goal of the team is to win championships. If the team isn’t even CLOSE to that goal people should be held acountable.
It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.
by Jim Coughenour on Jan 17, 2012 10:39 AM MST up reply actions 2 recs
exactly
I think Wil made a good point though (on his fanpost). Sarver has only held this job for 7 years, so maybe we just have to give him more time. These next 2 off-seasons are going to be huge.
Don't trade Dudley!
Well. it's not like we have a choice...
HHe’s the franchise owner…Unless he sells or we to rampage through USAC with pitchforks and torches, I think we are pretty much stuck with what decision good or bad he makes….
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
So wait
Unless you win you failed? So we are as bad as the Clippers?
Fans should not have an inferiority complex or accept a bad product.
We had a GREAT product.
And lastly, who else wanted the Suns, and who wanted them to stay in Phoenix? The worst case scenario for fans isn’t not winning a title – it is the team moving, As LA NFL fans – fans in a market way larger and less crowded than Phoenix.
Im sorry i don't watch a lot of NBA
but i always try to keep up with my team. Steve Nash is slowing down and i think we should trade him to get John Wall. We give them Steve Nash & Gortat for John wall & and 2nd/3rd round pick. We as a team are very slow paced because i think Nashs legs are pretty much aged.
RAIDER NATION
"There only can be one nation, The Raider Nation"
this is incredibly unrealistic
why would washington – a team that has more or less admitted that they’re in rebuilding mode – trade their best young player (and the #1 pick in the draft) for a 37-year old? even if you throw in gortat, that would make absolutely no sense for them
Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, and the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big ol' storm right square in the eye and he says, "Give me your best shot, pal. I can take it."
~Jack Burton, "Big Trouble in Little China"
by u_must_chill on Jan 14, 2012 9:40 PM MST up reply actions
im just saying
like i said, im just putting it out there. Not really a NBA guy but i love the suns. And John Wall is one of my favorites. Is there any way we can get Dwight Howard? Or anyone? Do we have anyone to trade for a superstar? Who can we get with Nash? Just looking at the possibilities, but as of now when i see them play, it doesn’t look good offensively. And our rookie thinks hes Larry Bird or something shooting bad 3’s at the Laker game. I just checked and we lost to the NETS? Damn nothing can get worse then that.
RAIDER NATION
"There only can be one nation, The Raider Nation"
by AlwaysWinBaby on Jan 14, 2012 9:58 PM MST up reply actions
We lost to the Nets when Steve Nash and Grant Hill both sat out the game.
So take that for what it’s worth. As for nothing being worse than losing to the Nets, we could’ve lost to the Wizards. Or worse, we could BE the Wizards.
As long as we have Steve, I still believe!
:D
Thats a good point
RAIDER NATION
"There only can be one nation, The Raider Nation"
by AlwaysWinBaby on Jan 14, 2012 10:03 PM MST up reply actions
At least the wizards have John wall.
I think the wizards will be a playoff team before the suns….
by forget on Jan 14, 2012 10:13 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
not without complete roster turnover around Wall.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
they're workin on it
next year Lewis comes off the books, right?
jesus
that was a horrible contract haha
well if someone comes along that they want, they could amnesty him. they are closer to winning then the suns right now. they have some solid players, just a bunch of knuckleheads as well
their solid players ARE their knucklheads, though. Same as Sacramento.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 16, 2012 12:32 PM MST up reply actions
javale and wall?
nick young isn’t a knucklehead either. blatche is the only one
The Wizards
best record in a season since the 1979-80 season… wait for it…… 45-37. Wow.
They have had 5 winning seasons (over .500) in the past 24 years. Yes, it could be worse.
BAMF goes HAM.
Um
no…
"Love me or hate me. Its one or the other…always has been. Hate my game, my swagger. Hate my fade-away, my hunger. Hate that I am a veteran, a champion. Hate that. Hate it with all your heart and hate that I am loved for the exact same reasons." – Kobe Bryant
don't even say it Ray
by 2NASHTY on Jan 14, 2012 9:53 PM MST up reply actions 3 recs
lol idk anything about
nba drafts lol i just like the suns
RAIDER NATION
"There only can be one nation, The Raider Nation"
by AlwaysWinBaby on Jan 15, 2012 1:26 AM MST up reply actions
Great writeup, Jim. Rec'd.
Now we sit back and wait for the crazed fans who demand a Nash for Rondo trade to surface.
As long as we have Steve, I still believe!
SunTs as a team are and enigma so far.
They have shown us stretches of really good play, and then really awful play, all within the same quarter. I agree the
rotation needs to be shortened. Brown and Telfair both kill the offense, just kill it. I wish Gentry would let them ride the
pine, indefinitely. The Suns other problem is only 1 player has any nasty in him and thats Kieff, every one else is to
passive. I enjoy watching Morris push players in the back, and get physical with vets. You need to TAKE rebounds. That means you need a little nasty.
Packers in the SuperBowl, and Suns in the playoffs-----goals for this season
Suns^ (Fail at spelling)
Packers in the SuperBowl, and Suns in the playoffs-----goals for this season
The Suns are about what I expected.
They just aren’t good. Steve Nash and Grant are slowing down…. and we don’t have many shooters on the roster. We aren’t a disaster, we just aren’t good. Like I said before, we’ll have another 1st round pick in the 10-14 range…ugh
by forget on Jan 14, 2012 10:19 PM MST via mobile reply actions
We'll be in the playoff hunt
I really believe that. So more like 13-17.
by MMotherwell on Jan 14, 2012 11:57 PM MST up reply actions
If we're not going to the playoffs
Then I’d much rather just be bad and get a 3-7 pick, then be a mediocre fringe team and get a 13-16 pick again.( I think we’ll know in the next 15 games if this team is going to contend for a playoff spot.)
This team needs another player for us to be excited about. That’s much easier to find in the first few picks.
"Clearly the Brewers didn't realize that going into Beast Mode raised their testosterone levels."
by tcyoung
by txzona on Jan 15, 2012 12:32 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
+2000
I think competing for the 8-10 spots and then getting a weak pick is the worst possible direction we can take. Unfortunately, it seems to be the path we’ve chosen.
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Since 1980, here are our regular season results
Seed 1-3: 10 times
Seed 4-6: 10 times
Seed 7-8: 4 times
Seed 9-10: 6 times
Seed 11-15: 1 time
That is 31 total seasons and 24 playoff appearances. Ten seasons we were in the dreaded “middling” zone (7-10) and only once did we bottom out.
The season we bottomed out, we were 13th in the west (out of 14) and drafted Luol Deng with the 7th pick. Quite the game changer.
Our best drafted players during that time:
Steve Nash – 15th pick (7th in the West)
Amare Stoudemire – 9th pick (10th in the West)
Shawn Marion – 9th pick (6th in the West)
Larry Nance – 20th pick (1st in the West)
Dan Majerle – 14th pick (9th in the West)
**Rajon Rondo – 21st pick (2nd in the West)
The Phoenix Suns are a team that proves you don’t have to tank in order to successfully rebuild.
BAMF goes HAM.
those 10 1-3 seeds came with
amare and barkley. Two superstars. We lucked out by snagging amare with the 9th pick. In today’s game, with no high school players allowed to be drafted, i don’t think its as easy to get a superstar with later picks. You need a superstar to be a contender, and the easiest way for us to get one is through the draft. We also have no championships, so you can argue that our strategy has not been that great ;)
Wrong
2 of them came in the early 80’s and 1 came in 88-89. Also, the 06-07 seed came without Amare. So that’s 4 of the 10 without him or Barkley.
Other key additions during that time:
Michael Finley – 21st pick (2nd in the West)
Jeff Hornacek – 2nd Round
Tom Chambers, Steve Nash – Free Agents
Charles Barkley, Kevin Johnson, Mark West, Jason Kidd, Stephon Marbury, Joe Johnson – Trades
My point is that you can conbuild. Tanking is not an easy strategy. There are many teams that have been bottom feeders for a while because there are no guarantees in the draft.
BAMF goes HAM.
Someone has come to my side :)
I think the “kill it and rebuild” is best disproved by Memphis. They sold Gasol for peanuts, and the theory was draft well and rebuild. As a result, they got OJ Mayo and Conley – not the guys that matter for them.
The reason they got better are Randolf and Gasol, and not because they tanked.
There are several rebuild strategies, and all rely on luck. Luck you’ll get a top 3 pick in the lottery (the worst team has a 75% chance of failing that), luck you’ll pick right when you do (Portland vs OKC), and luck that you’ll pick in a good year (Toronto got Bragnani – and the next year the top 3 were Oden, Durant and Horford).
Tanking for a 3-7 pick is no more likely to succeed than getting a washed up 4 who is immature and plays no D and hoping he turns it around, or signing an injury prone 30 something RFA PG who can shoot and pass but plays no D, and hoping they stay fit for the length of the contract.
damn, i really need to write a fan post!
see, im not condoning tearing apart any mediocre/bad team. I’m condoning getting rid of two 38/39 year old players that don’t have much time left. They aren’t a part of our future plans, so lets get rid of them! If Nash and Grant were like 30 (and they were playing at the same level they were now) then of course i wouldn’t want to get rid of them. My thinking is, why not get rid of the two old fogeys during this shortened season, since we aren’t going to make the playoffs? Having this losing season could let us know what we have in the rest of our roster, and give us a boost in terms of talent that will be available to us in the draft.
We are losing, and only averaging around 93-95 points per game. Are you being entertained? lol you have to know when to throw in the towel sometimes
I was originally for this not too long ago and I still wouldn't be against it if the FO decided to do it
I don’t believe it’s a bad strategy. We have a pretty good opportunity to rebuild through Free agency, Draft and Trade at the same time. This would be the year to do it. However, the FO only wants to go the Free agency route.
I think their plan is to sign a Franchise player and then resign the old guys to give it one or two more shots at a title. That’s why they wont go the trade route either and deal Gortat, Frye, Nash… for some good pieces. We’ll need those role players.
The draft route just isn’t going to happen. Nash and Hill want to go down with the ship. We’re stuck with them. It’s sort of a gift, and a curse.
I just hope their plan works.
Don't trade Dudley!
I don't really have a problem with conbuilding
We just haven’t made the best decisions all around. If we had a few of our draft picks that we gave away we would be in a much better place.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Rest, schmest
This team is out of shape and the only way to get in shape is to play basketball. At the rate we’re going, we’ll be out of playoff contention long before late-season rundown becomes a factor.
Our older guys need to figure out a way to carry this team until the younger guys figure it out. Then the youngsters can step forward and carry the fire while the vets catch their second wind.
And there is no magical trade that’s going to make us overnight contenders. We don’t have the tradeable assets to bring us a superstar. We’d only get more of the same, plus the disorder and dislocation that goes along with roster shifting.
We’ve got what we’ve got and we’ve got to do what we can with what we’ve got.
This team can still be good, but it’s going to take courage and commitment and above all, hard work.
If I could talk directly to the Suns, I’d tell them this: rest when you’re retired.
I'm Michael Beasley's imaginary friend.
by suns68 on Jan 14, 2012 11:32 PM MST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Managing time is vital in this compressed season
No one thinks we are that much better than Portland, do they?
Our biggest issue so far has been Hill shooting so badly – he is the last of the starters to hit form with his shot, with his FG% and 3FG% both horrific. We need his D so badly we’ve put up with it, but until Hill’s shot improves, we are in a bad spot.
When it does improve… LOOK OUT! Our starters are excellent, our bench has strengths (and weaknesses) and we have a well rested team. I think we are close to stringing together a few wins.
by MMotherwell on Jan 15, 2012 12:00 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
The pattern is...
Come out in the first quarter, shoot lights out.
Stumble a bit in the second and go to halftime slightly behind.
Hold serve more or less in the third.
Collapse in the fourth.
It’s a conditioning issue. Guys with tired legs can’t shoot.
Maybe the time management answer is to work them hard a couple games and then give a game off to recover and build muscle mass.
What we’re doing with this 25- and 30-minute-per-game stuff isn’t working at all. None of our players, even the young ones except maybe Hakim, seem to be in any kind of playing shape at all, much less at top of game.
Right now it looks like we’re on a trajectory to be out of the hunt in the next couple of weeks. It won’t matter a whif if we’re rested at the end of the season.
I'm Michael Beasley's imaginary friend.
by suns68 on Jan 15, 2012 12:40 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
Best Line ever
Childress loves the Bench.. Like a fat kid like cake.
by Wolf Make-Shift on Jan 15, 2012 12:24 AM MST reply actions
It is one of Jim's mantras.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
I only wish I could take credit for it's origin.
This belongs to another of our clever, sagacious contributors. I’m just doing my part to spread the good word.
It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.
by Jim Coughenour on Jan 15, 2012 11:23 AM MST up reply actions
I thought
Dudley at SG would work and our deep front court could carry us through the year. I was wrong.
Our FO gave up on Dragic so i’m amazed Lopez is still here. Maybe we can’t get anything for him? Morris has been great so far i’d like to see him start with Gortat pushing Frye to back up C or PF.
Childress and Brown aren’t a good fit and Telfair is just awful. Redd will take a bit of time but that’s something we don’t have.
Maybe the season could be saved via a savvy trade and a line up shuffle but that is putting faith in our FO, which i don’t have.
Stick a fork in us we are done. Clean house and let’s build for the 2012 season.
Does anyone here know the true story on why we gave up on the Dragon?
I’m not sure if I just missed it or if no one knows. Everyone here seemed to love that kid.
by SteveNash, QuantumPhysicist on Jan 15, 2012 7:54 AM MST up reply actions
When he cut his foot on the glass
Similar to how Boozer broke his wrist because he tripped over a bag.
There were rumors about Dragic getting too comfortable with his new lifestyle. That and his consistent confidence issues coupled with the fact that we needed to put certain players around him in order for him to succeed.
Don't trade Dudley!
Still a terrible trade though
I mean, I don’t mind that we dwelt him for Brooks, but a 2nd round pick wasn’t necessary. The fact that we could have got a good role player with that pick only goes to prove it. You don’t just give away picks no matter what they are.
Don't trade Dudley!
Dwelt -
To think, speak, or write at length about (a particular subject, esp. one that is a source of unhappiness, anxiety, or dissatisfaction).
I guess that works.
BAMF goes HAM.
I still don't understand why people were upset about the 2nd rounder...
In my eyes, Brooks was a much more proven, much more consistent, much more valuable player. I may be an idiot, but it wasn’t even close for me. I remember being amazed that we were able to pull that trade off. It was so weird for me to see so much disapproval on this site about it.
Granted things haven’t quite worked out, I believe do to Brooks’ injury more than anything else. Then the China mishap. Bringing luck back into the conversation… I still think that was a great trade, we’ve just had bad luck since Brooks got to town.
by iwasneveryoung on Jan 15, 2012 3:16 PM MST up reply actions
Eh...
He still had a pretty lame attitude when he got here. That part I don’t like.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Maybe because it was a 1st rounder?
Just sayin’…
Exactly.
A first round pick in what’s supposed to be a loaded draft.
The Suns could have been moving around pieces (like Lopez, Nash, etc.) to stockpile picks and instead they were busy trading theirs away last year.
If the Suns make the playoffs, Houston gets their pick. If the Suns don’t make the playoffs, the Rockets get the 1st round pick Phoenix got from Orlando. Here’s a quick look back to that fateful day.
It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.
by Jim Coughenour on Jan 15, 2012 4:20 PM MST up reply actions
Actually a 1st rounder in a poor draft
But still…
Prediction: next year’s draft will have as many busts as stars. Diuscuss.
poor?
where have you heard that? this year is supposed to be pretty strong.
very strong, in fact.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 16, 2012 12:33 PM MST up reply actions
Am I missing something?
We’re talking about the 1st rounder traded to Houston with Goran, right?
That was the 2011 draft. They got Orlando’s pick from us.
BAMF goes HAM.
I am confused as well
I am pretty sure that pick was already used up in this years draft.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
sorry. Got confused between shrink-sizing comment threads.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
A first round pick in what’s supposed to be a loaded draft.
reportedly a terrible draft.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Yes
My bad, it was a 1st rounder. A late first round pick which we could have used.
Don't trade Dudley!
Indeed
Marshon Brooks would have been AWESOME next to Kieff – just what we needed.
hindsight, hindsight, hindsight...
at the time of the trade, what we needed was a reliable backup for Nash. Obviously now that that specific situation has fallen apart due to a number of unforeseeable circumstances, it’s easy to say we “needed” that draft pick.
any yes, my bad about not catching the “2nd round” mistake.
by iwasneveryoung on Jan 16, 2012 5:09 AM MST up reply actions
Brooks is a terrible player – a short shooting PG – a terrible tweener. And as bad as Dragic was, we weren’t going anywhere last year anyway. The 1st rounder just made a bad trade worse, when we could have really used another pick.
Really?
A bad trade worse? Dragic was playing TERRIBLE for us and if it was Brooks for Dragic straight up you think that is still terrible? The 1st rounder makes it a bad trade but it is not bad if it is those 2 straight up.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Brooks was a more established player.
He was the MIP. He was Houston’s leading scorer and held them together amidst the Yao/T-Mac deterioration. Unfortunately, he got hurt, never found his stride again,. and got beat out for the starting job. Both he and Goran needed fresh starts. Unfortunately, Brooks did not adjust well and never found his role with this team. Perhaps that would have changed with a training camp this summer, but that didn’t happen. In hindsight, the trade didn’t work out so well. But at the time, it did make some sense.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
It made none
Look where we are – no Brooks and no 1st rounder. We could have had no Goran and a 1st rounder – which is better?
That was a terrible trade – even if we assume Brooks was a better player, and I don;t think he is any good at all, it was still a 1st rounder for an 18 minute a night guy.
I’d rather have Ronnie Price – warts and all.
hindsight is clearer than foresight, isn’t it?
Come on, we quibble over every little trade or move that went bad and all say “I’da never done that!” We rip Sarver for giving up on a season by selling players/picks and ALSO rip him for investing in a “win now” guy?
I’m confused. Unless the real answer is simply to blame everything that goes wrong on bad decision-making, rather than dice-rolling and finger-crossing
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Worse
Lookj, Dragic was woeful – seriously woeful, but was Brooks ever the long term solution? Was he better than a minimum guy like Price, heck even Telfair?
No is my answer, and I’d have loved another rookie – especially an athletic, long 2 like Marshon. A trade of backup for backup – and of a guy who can play with Nash to one who can’t – a tade that is effectively for a player that will play NO MORE THAN 18 minutes a night AND we include a 1st rounder?
Seriously, that was a woeful trade.
1-3
Barbs trade was awful, Brooks trade was awful, but they did well with the Gortat one.
Don't trade Dudley!
Gortat was AMAZING
And to think – he’;s about the best value player, in terms of pay, in the entire NBA. Amazing trade. Sad we traded him to Orlando in the first place, really.
I'm wondering if we should trade him
He’ll be 28 next season. He’s in his prime. The dude should be on a contender at this point. I don’t believe in rebuilding around guys that old. He can get us something good back. I’m not sure what, but we should put him on the trading block and see what offers come up for him.
Don't trade Dudley!
yes, let’s trade him, so a year from now we can rip Sarver for being so stupid.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
I think I'm seeing a pattern here.
Suns trade Nash – Suns get Nash back and he wins MVPS.
Suns trade Gortat – Suns get Gortat back and he becomes a force in the paint.
I think the Suns need to trade Morris.
It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.
by Jim Coughenour on Jan 17, 2012 10:44 AM MST up reply actions
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-draft-history/?syear=2005 – round 2, pick 27.
With that trade
Did we get a first round pick as part of the Jim Jackson trade or did we give a first round pick to get Jimmy? Because Jim was good for us that year.
Don't trade Dudley!
I believe he was just signed off the street after being released. Suns gave up nothing.
But wait. How could Sarver have signed off on that? I’m dumbfounded. He sells everything away and undermines the team all for the purpose of turning a profit…
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
That's why I keep my foot in there.
To keep people from sticking words in there.
It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.
by Jim Coughenour on Jan 17, 2012 10:46 AM MST up reply actions
All I am saying is
Do you think Dragic for Brooks was a bad trade if there was no first rounder included? The Suns had always been high on Brooks. If it was those 2 straight up I would have no problem with it. I would have considered it a steal for us though because of what I have seen Brooks do in the past. I think the 1st rounder is the only thing that makes it a bad trade.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
I preferred Dragic to Brooks from the get go
based on Brooks woeful consistency and efficiency issues, as well as his (lack of) size.
I’m of the school that says you can’t win the NBA with a 145 pound PG.
Voted most likely to say "I told you so"
Bad trade yes
What was the upside? 18 minutes a night of slightly better play? And that assumes Brooks was a better player – which Brooks isn’t. He is a short SG, or at best a scoring PG, in an offence that needs facilitators.That was always the case.
A better deal would have been to let Dragic walk, or sign him for the minimum, keep the pick and take a player, and sign, I dunno, say 2 free agent Vet Minimum PGs like, off the top of my head, Price and Telfair, and let them duke it out.
Heck, sign Baron Davis. There was always going to be a lockout, and an amnesty clause, so there was going to be a good PG this year at some point.
Hindsight is 20-20, but the trade was bad even straight up, when we weren’t a piece away from a title, and the piece we got back was never going to solve any long term problems.
by MMotherwell on Jan 19, 2012 4:15 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd x 1000
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
I think that is just opinion
I am sure the FO believed that Brooks could be more successful than what he showed last season with us. I just can’t see how 2 backups being traded straight up is a bad move. If Brooks played like he had the season prior to us trading for him it would have really improved us. The whole premise of the trade is to try and find someone who can give Nash some rest. Both really failed at doing that.
I agree we weren’t a piece away but I can’t fault them for trying to find a reliable backup for Steve.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
by Airwave on Jan 19, 2012 1:39 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Not hindsight, at the time I knew we needed that pick.
Because our team wasn’t good.
Don't trade Dudley!
Well, after I thought about it anyway
I questioned it when the the trade first happened, but then let it go when everybody said it wasn’t a big deal. Then I looked at Brooks stats and realized we probably could have gotten him without the pick. We just need a better negotiator in our FO.
Don't trade Dudley!
This squad's ceiling is maybe the 6th or 7th seed. Maybe.
That’s if eeeeeeeeeeeeverything goes well. Nash continues to play out of his mind, Hill finds his groove, Channing keeps making buckets, Dudley gets his stroke back, Brown gets a brain transplant, Lopez turns into 09/10 Lopez, Redd becomes a more accurate LB, and Markieff keeps up his All-Rookie play.
Even then, I don’t see us winning more than one playoff series. If every other team in the West suffers massive injuries and we make a truly inconceivable/impossible run to the NBA Finals, there is no way we are beating Miami or Chicago in a 7 game series.
What is more likely is that we repeat what we did last year: win a few in a row, lose a few in a row, and end up 10th in the west with a barely sub .500 record. For our efforts, we get the 13th pick in the draft.
This does not seem like a good idea to me. I would honestly rather bottom out in this shortened, wtf season, get a great draft pick, and then spend our money wisely in FA next summer.
I know some of you will say that this is a “loser’s mentality.” It is not. You need to know when to fold. We tried our best, we got so, SO close, but due to bad luck and bad personnel decisions, we’re done. There are too many strong, talented teams in the league for us to even try to make a dent. If we keep on “competing”(and I use that word loosely) then we are just trying to put band-aids on the wound instead of trying to let it heal completely.
I know that there have been many posts on this site about the success(or lack thereof) of the “tear it down completely and rebuild” route, but if you look at the contending teams in today’s NBA, a lot of their core players have come through the draft. Chicago and Rose, Noah, Deng. Thunder and Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka. Orlando with Dwight. Miami with Wade. Lakers with Kobe, Bynum. Even the “non-contenders” got their best players through the draft: NO, Utah, Cleveland and Toronto with Paul, Deron, LeBron and Bosh respectively(even though they’ve since been traded). Clips with Blake. Minny with Love, Rubio, Williams. This iteration of the Cavs drafted Kyrie Irving, and we know what he can do.
The draft is always hit or miss(that’s why they call it the “lottery” I guess). You could end up like OKC, or you could end up like Portland(Roy retired, Oden pretty much gone, etc.) Still, I think the route with the potential for highest success, compared to trades and FA.
Let’s talk about trades. I don’t think anybody will give up much of value for players like Warrick, Chilldress, Price, Telfair, Redd, Brown. They have negligible(or negative, in Chilly’s case) trade value.
That leaves Nash, Hill, Dudley, Frye, Gortat, Lopez, Markieff. Dudley and Frye are mid-level players who every team could use, but I don’t think we’ll get a piece that drastically improves our team in return for the two of them, so we’re better off keeping them, IMO. Markieff is a great rookie so far, so we keep him. Lopez is still an enigma, and I’m personally a fan of his, but if the Grizz offered Mayo for him, or if another team offered a first rounder, I would do both of those.
Gortat is becoming a very good center, and he’s our clear center of the future right now, but he does have the most trade value on our team. He is our best chance at getting a great player via trade. However, size matters in the NBA, and I wouldn’t trade Marcin unless we got a player who was CLEARLY better than him.
That leaves Nash and Hill.
I know Nash has said he wants to stay here, and I know Babby has said we’ll never trade him, but I think those feelings might change if we keep losing 64% of our games. Nash will never ask for a trade publicly, and Babby will never announce that Steve’s available, but I hope that if this season continues to be a trainwreck, that either Nash announces his desire to be traded to a contender, or that Babby starts thinking about the future and starts making some calls to see what we could get for our living legend. Any team that is competing for a championship could surely use a Nash/Hill package deal. They’re not going to get back what they’re worth as players, but maybe we could get back a decent prospect or a 1st/2nd rounder package or something.
Of course, you may be asking(rightly so), “Wait…if we’re not going to get back anything that helps our team for them, why trade them? Didn’t you say we were better off keeping Dudley and Frye for pretty much the same reasons?”
Yes, I did say that. However, the difference is that by trading Nash/Hill, we stop the treadmill team, “shoot for the stars! or .500, whichever is closer” route that we’re currently going for. Nash is still an incredible player, but every win he drags us to is futile in terms of our prospects for this season, and ultimately harmful for our future chances at success.
That covers trades. What about FA?
I know that the plan seems to be “compete as hard as we can this season, sign awesome FAs next summer, re-sign Nash/Hill and BOOM! we’re competitive again!” but I am not as enamored with the 2012 FA class as some are. Dwight has already published his list of teams he wants to play for, and Phoenix is not one of them. I don’t think Deron will come here either. Of course, that doesn’t mean you don’t approach them and promise them EVERYTHING and hope for the best, but I am not optimistic.
As Seth has pointed out before, the rest of the good FAs are restricted, which means we’ll have to overpay for them in order to snag them. Now, “overpaying” for Russell Westbrook, Eric Gordon, Kevin Love, etc., is not nearly as bad as Detroit spending all of their cap space on Ben Gordon and Charlie V , but ultimately, you don’t want to end up with Tier 2 players for Tier 1 money. That is fiscally unwise and doesn’t make much basketball sense either. If the Sarver/Blabby brain trust strikes out on their top guys, I hope they don’t feel like they have to spend their money this summer simply because that’s what they’ve been telling fans they’ll do for about a year now.
I love Steve Nash. A lot of my friends start throwing things at me because I sing his praises so often. I’ll be incredibly upset when he is no longer a Sun. However, I truly believe that if we can trade him to a contender, bottom out, get a good draft pick(and nail it, which is a huge IF), spend our money smartly in FA, we will be in a better place one year from now than we will be if we keep him.
Phew…that was too long. Thanks for reading it all the way through if you did. In retrospect, this really should have been a fanpost, but I guess the upshot is I’m capitalizing on Jim’s front page exposure :D.
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Too long
my bad
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Players become available
I never thought, in my wildest dreams, that the most productive player in the NBA – CP3 – wopuld become available, but he did. Wisely, the Clippers cashed in their crappy assets for him. Ditto Boston and Garnett, when Boston traded a bunch of second tier talent for a 1st grader, and won a title from worst to first in a year.
If you want to win a title, you need to KEEP your better players, build assets and pounce on a star first chance you get. I still think that if we had traded Amar’e for Garnett, I think we’d have that title now.
So rather than worrying about making moves now to do whatever, I say sit tight and see what unfolds.
I still think that if we had traded Amar’e for Garnett, I think we’d have that title now.
Was this the rumored 3 team deal between us, Boston and Atlanta? I know we tried Marion for KG, but Marion said he wouldn’t re-sign with Boston, so deal off. I was really excited for that 3 team deal though.
PG Nash
SG Bell
SF Hill
PF Marion
C Garnett
6 Barbosa
7 Diaw
8 Probably Skinner
That team for sure would have got the title. Holy crap, we could have changed history and kept the Lakers and Celtics from winning championships! That team would have been both great offensively and defensively.
Don't trade Dudley!
I can;t remember specifics
But yes, that looks about right.
All I can remember is there was 3 team trade around the draft
Minny would get Atlanta’s fist round pick which would end up being Horford. Atlanta would get Amar’e and we would get KG. It never went down though.
Don't trade Dudley!
So it was real, not a rumor?
Because it was expected to go down on draft night, but never did. I was kind of disappointed. I wanted KG. I guess we do control our own luck to an extent.
Don't trade Dudley!
It was real - and i am pretty sure we bailed
Although there may be something we don;t know about (team didn’t want Amar’e’s bad knee, who knows?)
orrrr, Sarver decided to keep the best LONG-term player in the deal…
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
ok, so if you’re gonna play the could woulda, I’ve got a good one we all keep forgetting.
The 2007 draft, the same year the Suns had the best team west of SA, the Suns also had Atlanta’s first-round pick that was top-3 protected (the jewel of the JJ trade). For a while there, it looked as if the Suns could win the championship AND get a top-6 pick (Joakim Noah was likely their target), as long as SA folded and Atlanta failed in the draft lottery. They could have replaced KT with Joakim Noah, a perfect front-court pairing of the ages!
The Suns just needed a little luck.
But alas, Amare and Boris left the bench, and Atlanta got lucky and kept the #3 pick in the lottery. It was all downhill from there…
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Just imagine:
Amare, Diaw, Marion, Joakim Noah, Raja Bell, Steve Nash and Barbosa
Suns could have been basking in a championship AND gotten better that offseason…
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Seth claims that Suns FO was obsessed with Corey Brewer.
That would have been lovely in a not at all sort of way
No longer trying to light Vince Carter on fire.
by Scott Howard on Jan 16, 2012 9:38 AM MST up reply actions
That's what he claimed once when I asked him about it.
No longer trying to light Vince Carter on fire.
by Scott Howard on Jan 16, 2012 9:55 AM MST up reply actions
lol epically bad then.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 16, 2012 10:20 AM MST up reply actions
Exactly. Can you imagine? Yikes.
No longer trying to light Vince Carter on fire.
by Scott Howard on Jan 16, 2012 10:35 AM MST up reply actions
.in the D league...maybe...
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
Yeh that one sucked worse.
Put Joakim Noah on thst team, and we win a title.
I don't like this kind of woulda, coulda though because it was based upon luck
The above was because we just made a dumb decision.
Don't trade Dudley!
You and I just don’t think alike, Beav.
I don’t question decisions because I know I don’t actually know everything that went into them. It’s so easy to question a decision that in hindsight looks dumb, after the fact. Too easy.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
I bring this woulda coulda stuff up because the goal is to win a Championship and we can't do that
if the Owner continues to make the same decisions over and over again.
Maybe all Sarver needs is to do is hire an experienced and smart GM with a good track record and then keep him.
Also, maybe to some it hurts to think about what could have been, but not to me it’s not. It’s fun to think of a 7SOL roster with KG. It helps me to think of this stuff because it takes my mind off of our current problems. At the same time though, the current problems have come because of the dumb decisions Sarver made in the past.
I try to learn from others mistakes besides my own and even though I may never hold a position in an NBA FO, I still learn good things that could apply to different jobs.
I understand I’ve probably been talking about it too much though. I got to stop focusing on how we got into this mess and now figure out why this team is playing the way they are, what the problem is and what we got to do to get us out.
Don't trade Dudley!
I understand I’ve probably been talking about it too much though. I got to stop focusing on how we got into this mess and now figure out why this team is playing the way they are, what the problem is and what we got to do to get us out.
cool. Just as a little change of pace… :)
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
There is also this...
Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it.
I unfortunately have many maudlin memories about the Suns and can still feel the sting from reaching the precipice and failing time and again.
Have I been stigmatized growing up in Phoenix and cheering for the local flavor? Probably to some extent. Isn’t it a funny dynamic how geography plays into the rooting interests of so many people? Maybe I’d be a better parent if I moved to a city with more successful sports teams so my children could escape my fate?
The Suns don’t seem to be repeating past failures at this point. I can’t remember when the team ever went into an offseason with this much cap space and so few players under contract. When this course became apparent, I had speculated that Sarver might be shedding payroll to put the team in a position to sell more easily, but I don’t currently think that is the case.
The Suns will have 30+ million in cap room. The exact number depends on circumstances yet to unfurl.
They are apparently not looking to play for ping pong balls or acquire additional assets in the form of young players, expiring deals, and/or draft picks at this juncture.
This could change if the team continues to struggle mightily.
The gamble is that the Suns can dangle a lure in the free agency pond and get a couple big fish to bite. They keep the option of returning Nash open.
The Suns still maintain all their options with their current strategy. They can try to compete for a low playoff spot, or they can start the fire sale at any time they choose. I believe they came into the season with the company line that they would do anything to win as long as it in no way compromised one penny of this summer’s cap space.
Whether or not they succeed in their machinations remains to be seen. The list of players the Suns can reasonably hope to compete for may not be the A-list they are hoping for.
But if the Suns fail in their free agent cabal, it will be a brand new failure for the franchise. Instead of repeating past mistakes, they will be trailblazing brand new areas of ineptitude. They will be pioneers.
It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.
by Jim Coughenour on Jan 17, 2012 11:13 AM MST up reply actions
you think they'll stick with it?
They already failed with their 1st post Amare plan.
Don't trade Dudley!
It depends on what you mean by stick with it?
I think that the most prudent course of action is for a team to have a plan that they are working towards, while remaining open-minded to modifying the plan if an unexpected opportunity arises.
I think the Suns are trying to implement a course of action that coincides with this dogma. I like that they seem to have a sense of direction and I believe they are maintaining their flexibility moving forward. It’s a little refreshing because I can remember thinking this team was completely lost a year ago.
I don’t completely agree with their plan, but at least they appear to have one. Whether they can achieve success and have the Suns back in a position to compete for a title in the next three years is another question entirely, because having and executing a plan doesn’t always guarantee success.
The Suns have put themselves in a position where they have a lot of options that still fall under the umbrella of their plan.
Teams doing good, hold it together – part of the plan.
Not so good, ditch Rolo and Warrick – still the plan.
Wait for the offseason to sign free agents – more plan.
A coveted player is available via trade – why wait for the summer? this could be the plan.
Keep Nash and re-sign him – that could be the plan.
Trade Nash before the deadline – you guessed it, plan, plan, plan.
The plan was to create cap space that would give them lots of flexibility. They have some of that flexibility now and will get more this offseason. It’s just a matter of how they use it.
It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.
by Jim Coughenour on Jan 17, 2012 3:06 PM MST up reply actions
Right
What about a Coaching change? I wouldn’t be surprised if they fired Gentry next summer, but what if they decide to fire him within the next few weeks? Is that sticking with the plan?
Don't trade Dudley!
Thunder dan! Ad interim
Back to the old old suns days. Then hire him nect year. Either that or maybe Vannnn Gundyyyyyy!!!
"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"
by phxpurple on Jan 18, 2012 3:13 AM MST via Android app up reply actions
That's a good question.
I really don’t think Gentry’s job is in peril right now, but depending on what the team does the rest of the season and what the offseason holds, I could envision a scenario where the team decides they want to go in a different direction coaching wise.
Maybe they do end up getting an extra pick or two and focus on young free agents and they don’t think that Gentry is the right guy to develop the new personnel. Maybe they decide they want someone that can actually coach and implement defense instead of just talking about doing it.
I think the main tenet of the “plan” is to create and preserve capspace to enter a free agency period. I think they’re flexible about a lot of the ancillary aspects that are concomitant to their plan. I would assume that includes who will coach the next incarnation of Suns basketball.
It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.
by Jim Coughenour on Jan 18, 2012 8:29 AM MST up reply actions
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