SB Nation Arizona Editor's Pick
As a Suns fan, would you object to your team tanking the season to get a high draft pick…?
First let me preface this by saying that I still believe in this team, but I believe the question must be asked..."As a Suns fan, would you object to your team tanking the season to get a high draft pick…?"
After the crime-scene in Chicago where the Suns looked like a pick-up team consisting of two NBA players and a bunch of YMCA hacks, I started thinking about where the season could possibly go from there. Mind you, I still think there is a chance this team could get it together and make a playoff run, but if the losses continue to mount, I sense more and more fans will believe this is a "lost" season. Invariably, management may start getting (if they don't already) the same idea as well and act accordingly (trades, salary dumps, extended playing time for youngsters, etc…).
The idea is not new---we have called it many things…giving up, blowing it up, re-building, and most recently we’ve heard the term "sucking for Luck (Andrew that is…). I prefer the old fashion term "tanking" so I’ll just stick with that. The very subject of tanking brings up a host of emotions within fans, as can easily be seen by the comments on any fan-post or game thread. All fans want to see their team win. However, getting to the winning part is the journey fans will sometimes disagree with (How, why, when, what, and where…). Without prejudicing myself one way or another, it’s pretty easy to see there are several schools of thought concerning tanking:
1. You never embrace tanking – This is based off the premise that high draft picks are just as often mediocre as they are successes. This is even if the ping-pong balls fall in your favor and you get the pick you want. Another fact to consider is that losing can become an organizational culture…in other words "habit-forming." Once you start down this path, it’s hard to break contact--almost becoming a curse on the franchise (See LA Clippers). Bottom line: It takes a lot to win in the NBA and no single rookie player should be worth the physical, emotional, and organizational turmoil that a "tanked" season entails.
2. Situational wise tanking - This is based off the premise that if management and the fanbase truly didn't think a team had a chance and/or there was a game-changing, no-doubt stud (ala Lebron or Dwight Howard) …why not? These players only come along a few times a decade and as extremely low-risk high reward types. Conversely, some fans would be pissed for a team to tank just to go after a debatable numero uno type such as Bargnani in the 2006 NBA Draft. In this regard, a careful balance would have to be struck between expectation management and fanbase retention. This type of tanking is probably most appropriate if a team is beset by injuries or has no chance of effectively competing or even if the pieces are coming together and one player will make that difference.
3. Tanking as part of a longer term plan – This is based off of a carefully calculated strategic plan by team management for a long-range determination of where a team wants to be in a few years. Once again a balance has to be struck between "prepping the chessboard" and perpetual suckitude. If done properly, a team can strategically turn two or three years of putridness into a viable NBA contender. If done wrong, it can set a franchise into the Dark Ages for a decade…It takes a management team with vision, smarts, and most of all patience to ride out the storm to get to their intended endstate. The vision has to be made clearly so the fanbase gets what the FO is trying to accomplish and doesn’t wilt along the way. Tanking as part of a long range plan is probably the most difficult to bear because it encompasses so long of a timespan and many available variables make it tempting to deviate from.
There you have it. Of course there are hundreds of tanking variables that I didn’t touch on...as I don’t want to make the article drone on and on. What I want people to ask themselves is are they willing to go through tanking and all that accompanies it? Consider the changes in personnel. Consider the changes in coaching. Consider changing philosophies. Consider the losing (yeah, that's part of it..). Consider the dwindling fanbase and accompanying resources. Consider the anxiety if a draft pick is going to pan out. Consider the ridicule. Consider that I can go on ad nauseum. Are potential stars Barnes, Gilchrest, or Drummond worth the cost? You tell me.
"What man buildeth a house without first sitting down and counting up the cost…?
Hebrew Bible Proverb
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I'd almost always say no to this.
But this is a stupid and bizarre season with a bunch of out of shape players who can’t get into a rhythm – it’ll basically be like it didn’t happen. So we might as well continue sucking and see if we can net a Top 5 pick in what’s acknowledged as a rather strong draft.
Fortunately none of us will have to consider this scenario as the team can suck plenty without trying to tank.
No longer trying to light Vince Carter on fire.
by Scott Howard on Jan 18, 2012 12:09 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
But what if they Suns get their collective heads
out their butts and start playing, say .500 ball..?
What then…?
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
Seriously.
No longer trying to light Vince Carter on fire.
by Scott Howard on Jan 18, 2012 3:40 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah
If it is a ‘tanked’ season I would rather it be from us just being bad enough to be the #1 pick instead of trying to lose. I may want that high draft pick but I don’t root for losses, I would prefer to see the Suns beat whoever they are playing.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Are you telling me they've been trying to win thus far?
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Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo
by East Bay Ray on Jan 18, 2012 12:27 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
I can think of no other reason Nash is playing 30+ minutes a game...
The Suns started this season trying to win…But with the way they are playing, I am beginning to wonder….
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
I've been advocating for this since before the season started
With Nash and Lopez trades, the Suns might be able to get a top-5 pick (their own) and two other first-rounders in a draft that is supposed to be deep.
Free Steve Nash!
Hindsight is always 20/20, JSun...
Nobody thought the start of this season would be this hideous…
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
I did
I thought that the best the Suns could hope for was Miraculous Nash to carry the Suns to the 8th seed in the playoffs. That would be a worse result than a bottom-5 finish
That was my prediction, and anyone who did not acknowledge this as a real possibility just wasn’t paying attention
Free Steve Nash!
So you expected us to finish with a top 5 pick?
As we are very close to being right now until things change.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
I expected the Suns to miss the playoffs -- badly (maybe bottom 10, 5 was hopeful)
But I feared that Nash could put a stop to that and keep the Suns mired in mediocrity.
What has surprised me is just how bad the supporting cast has looked. Really, though, that shouldn’t have been a suprise where Dudley (I do enjoy the guy) is the second-best playmaker on the team.
Free Steve Nash!
We look that bad when our supporting cast plays this badly
Gortat and Nash are the only 2 bringing it nightly.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
I think a line-up change will cure that...
Give a new unit a chance to see what they can do…
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
What I don't want
is the twelfth pick in the draft while missing the playoffs and starting next season with three signed guys and a flurry of desperate overpaid role players.
Every game is making a real playoff run look like less of a probability, and leaning me towards accepting flunkitude.
Yeah, that’s a word.
borderline adequate
So are you saying suck enough for a top 5 pick?
Or is top 10 good enough?
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
If we could trade for someone elses (expected) top ten first rounder
along with our own, I’d accept a suck approach.
Not sure how that trade works. Teams that bad won’t want our ageing stars, so we’d be required to give up one of the few things we’d actually want to keep long term (Gorty/Keiffy).
I could see Boston going for Nash/Hill and offering a pick in return – and maaaaaybe they’d keep sucking. But probably not nearly enough.
borderline adequate
Go for 3 first round picks
If Nash and Lopez get traded, the Suns could have three first-rounders, and at least one high pick.
Free Steve Nash!
But there is no guarantee all or any of those picks will pan out...
That’s the danger of tanking and going for picks…It doesn’t always work out the way you plan…
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
3 gives you better chances than 1
It’s a better gamble than to be stuck in neutral while trying to go up a hill, only to have to get out of the car to push when Steve can no longer help
Free Steve Nash!
No, but if you trade viable players
for picks that wash out…You have just contributed to greater “Suckitude…”
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
We don't really need viable players who are 38 and 39 right now
Nash/Hill respectively.
I’d like to keep Lopez, but if we can get a 1st for him, sure…
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Whether we trade Nash or not, he'll be a free agent next season and we could still re-sign him.
I think it’s an awesome strategy. Trade Nash for a 1st round pick, then re-sign him the following summer for cheap. Wherever we trade Nash too, he’ll just have to lie and say, “Yeah, I’ll re-sign with ya guys.” Lol, it’s a dark plan, but an awesome one.
Don't trade Dudley!
Your mind works on a different freq, Beav...
but I llike it…
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
That is a very specific scenario to occur haha
IMO it is just too risky to trade our only good players away for 1st round picks (I am speaking of our players currently under contract next year) and of those guys only Gortat and MAYBE Morris would get you a higher first round pick. If we continue to be this bad we will just have to hope we draft well with our high pick and get someone in free agency. I wouldn’t want our FO mortgaging everything on these few draft picks when (recently) we have struggled drafting.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
This team will only truly rebuild
Once the Nash era ends.
But yes, at this point I’m fine with us tanking for the #1 pick. Will they try to get it on purpose? No, but I have no doubt they’ll still succeed at it.
Joe Saunders: "They Giants played a really good game, so hats off to us"
You all know my position on this.
I wrote that “It’s time to say goodbye” article a month ago. It offended some of the people on here, but that was expected.
Don't trade Dudley!
You still feel that way after the win in NY...?
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
That game last night
Should have done nothing to sway an opinion on that. Man, the Knicks looked bad.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
So what if the Suns manage to roll off..
say six wins in a row…what then…?
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
Then hailstones the size of minivans will rain down upon the earth
and the sky shall be rolled back like a scroll as the end of the world occurs.
Voted most likely to say "I told you so"
Then we'll be at .500
Which is worse than where we are now
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
At .500 we have a chance of making the playoffs...
How is that worse than we’re we are at now…? There are no guarantees with draft picks as you all should be too well aware of…
Let's do this...!
That would make us
10-9, one game above 500. And half a game back for the 8th spot if standings hold steady.
BAMF goes HAM.
Play to win and let the chips fall where they may.
We should never tank a season on purpose, this franchise has a winning tradition and more integrity than that.
I mean it’s not like we’re the spurs secretly tanking to try and get tim duncan(there is obviously no duncan in this draft,but drummond is as close as it gets to a “franchise changing” big).
This team should always come out and try to get the win. Having said that, if we’re realistically not quite good enough to make the playoffs why try and get the lowest lottery selection possible while still giving false hopes to a playoff run?
While the draft is always a crap shoot, this has been described by almost every scout as a strong draft. Yes lottery picks are a gamble, but if we make a bad selection that’s on the front office and our scouting department.
We did well in drafting morris, and we have a much stronger frontline because of it(aside from robin’s inconsistencies). It’s been obvious for some time now that we need to find suitable starting caliber replacements for steve and grant while also trying to replace the scoring that we lost with the departures of stoudamire and richardson.
We still have nobody on this team that can get the other team in foul trouble and command a double-team. We’ve added some talented bench players in price and brown, but as we’ve seen they just don’t have the consistency to bring their A game night in and night out.
In the end, it’s not about accepting the idea of tanking, it’s holding out hope that we can draft,trade or sign the player or players with enough talent,confidence and most importantly “killer instinct” to take over a game when nash and hill can’t anymore.
We all want to see the suns in the playoffs and truly competing for a title but we need to be in a position to draft the kind of talent that gets us there(right now we are missing some quality we used to have in order to attract big name free agents like we did in the past).
We missed the playoffs the last couple of seasons and did well in drafting morris, but he’s going to need a stronger supporting cast around him(like we had when we drafted marion and stoudamire,then traded for johnson and nash)
This would bring back some much needed excitement and hope for next season. So as long as this team plays as hard as they possibly can in an attempt to make the playoffs that’s a step in the right direction, if they do that and don’t make it we still can come away with some hope for the future in a high lottery pick and the chance to draft a future star.
That is assuming the front office finally embraces the purpose of the draft and the scouting department does their homework so we can get the best possible talent next to markieff.
Jay, remember we made the playoffs big time in 2009/2010
I gather from your post that draft picks are’nt the way to go…right,,,?
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
Tank it and hope the front office could net a couple more 1st round picks
With the way things are going for the Suns, this roster would barely make the playoffs. This team needs athleticism and youth and the best way to get both is through the draft.
Women were the reason I became a monk - and, ah, the reason I switched back... -Morte, Planescape Torment
I don't see a way they get 3 good 1st rounders...
But a 2nd one in the teens or better would be worth it. The only way this draft isn’t good is if a lot of players decide not to be part of it. With the path we are on we could get Thomas Robinson or Perry Jones, guys who can be productive 3s for us for years to come. The 2nd pick could get a solid PG project. With plenty of money to sign Gordon to add to Gortat and Morris we are talking about a team which could be a world away from where we are now if it all falls into place.
But it all starts with getting to where we get to pick 6th or better.
I would be mortified if the players or coaches were tanking, but
I would be entirely happy with the FO making moves to ensure a high draft pick.
If they were to trade Grant, for instance, for a low first round pick, and a player they bought out. I think that would do the trick.
Voted most likely to say "I told you so"
Hmmmm...
Overt tanking versus stealth tanking…Anyway you look at it, it is tanking stilll…
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
The difference is one of habits
Players playing badly on purpose makes bad habits.
Coaches sabotaging the players just causes them to lose the locker room
FO trading away assets to rebuild? That’s expected.
Voted most likely to say "I told you so"
Agreed,
it makes all the difference in the world.
by iwasneveryoung on Jan 19, 2012 4:12 AM MST up reply actions
But losing is still losing...
It averst the collective psyche of aan organization espercially if they don’t get the expected lift from a draft pick….
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
Players play
Coaches coach
Front Offices look at the big picture and make hard decisions
Voted most likely to say "I told you so"
Sun God, what i’m saying is i agree with you that we should never intentionally try to tank, this organization has too much integrity for that. We should always try to compete and get a win regardless of our record(like we did tonight against the knicks).
2009/10 was an amazing season and we always seem to find a way to defy the odds and prove the critics wrong. There is still alot of games to be played, we might somehow find a way to pile up enough wins to make the playoffs but to what end?
If we’re being truthful, we haven’t shown that we can beat the best teams in the west(yet) and the whole point of making the playoffs is to pursue a title run. I know there are some loyal,die-hard suns fans here but does anyone think that if we make the playoffs we’ll go through all the strongest teams in the west to get to the finals?
I guess once you make the playoffs anything’s possible but it doesn’t seem likely. So in a twisted sort of way, if we did end up making the playoffs and eventually got eliminated we would be happy to have made the playoffs but frustrated that we ended up being just good enough to make the post-season and deprive ourselves of the chance to add a potential impact player in a very strong draft.
That would then mean we’d have to pin all our hopes on our front office securing a top free agent aquisition this off-season (they haven’t yet shown the ability to lure an impact free agent yet so i’m doubtful they"ll do it this off-season).
For the short-term the playoffs should be our goal, for the fans so we can continue to see suns basketball after the regular season ends and hopefully relive some exciting moments.
The bad part of it is there’s a very realistic chance we won’t make it out of the first round if we do somehow secure the eighth spot. I can’t see us upsetting a #1 playoff seed on their homecourt in order to move on.
Also, if we do make the playoffs sarver will be more than happy and won’t change a thing. Wether we’re deadset on making the playoffs or not, the long-term solution is to have not just a good draft,but a great one.
We need to add some young,dynamic talent and the easiest way to do that is through this draft. some people will disagree and say the best way to do that is free agency, i say for the suns in this particular situation it’s the draft and making the right pick or picks.
It’s more cost efficient than trying to negotiate with a number of free agents asking for crazy amounts of money and unlike those free agents that can say no or have their team match the offer. We can choose the best player for our team after we work them out a number of times to see how they"ll blend with the team.We don’t have that option with potential free agents aquisitions.
Instant gratification means the playoffs, but we will eventually have to face the rebuild, we need to try and find a couple of guys worthy of taking steve and grant’s spot once they leave or retire so we can keep the playoff chase alive.
Right now, we don’t have that and that’s why our front office and scouting department have to strike gold in this draft. We have enough good young role players but no one to really build around besides markieff, and that’s simply not going to be enough if our first goal is to make the playoffs and go from there.
This is a much stronger draft this year, loaded with star talent. Last year’s draft was said to be pretty weak and we drafted morris in the late lottery. Imagine what we can get with a much higher pick in a much stronger draft.
For this reason alone i’ll choose the chance to draft a star college player over a potentially short playoff appearance in a shortened season. No to tanking, but yes to a great suns draft night!
by jay humphries on Jan 18, 2012 10:09 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
You do realize that if the Suns does decide to tank the season, they're still competing
Women were the reason I became a monk - and, ah, the reason I switched back... -Morte, Planescape Torment
As far as I am concerned, tanking is not an option. However
The management could insure a great draft by trading Steve Nash for a first round pick. Think there are a few teams out there that would take Steve for a run at the playoffs?
The Suns would finish the season with about 12 to 15 wins, save another 10 million in cap space and insure themselves of a chance at a couple of young players in the draft.
In this shortened season, the fans might even forgive the franchise for trading Nash.
The team has absolutely NO CHANCE of even competing for a playoff spot in the West. The Suns will be fortunate to win 25 games with the present lineup of mostly role players, no scoring punch, no stud, no defense, no rebounding and no prospects.
Never say "no chance"
As long as we can roll 5 players out onto the court, there’s always a chance…Maybe not the greatest chance in the world, but there’s always a chance this team makes the playoffs…
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
Your confidence in the Suns is admirable. And you are correct. Anything can happen,
but it would take a near impossible alignment of the stars to get this sad team in the playoffs. There is no young athletic talent on the bench. This team is stuffed with average and below average NBA players. It was really disappointing to me as a fan that so many players were not in playing shape when the strike was settled. Some of them still do not have their game legs or their shooting strokes. Very unprofessional. Even with Nash, if his body holds up, the team will be hard pressed to win 30 games. The team will get a lottery pick but can we be optimistic that the front office has the ability to choose a player that can help the team? Whatever did happen to Earl?
There is no honour in throwing the white towel
Imagine the players and the management board really have to dig deep into their dignity to throw about 50+ games away…
i really can’t imagine a person, player or a worker has to cheat their way through all these remaining months… yeah for some it is ok to surrender to get a bite of a cheese cake, but it will be the lowest of human’s dignity to do that.
basically, it will be a cheat to the ticket holders as well… and it is like watching professional wrestling for a scripted drama..
the worst is, there is no guarantee we can get a franchise player next season that can lift ourselves up…look at the timberwolves, raptors and bulls, bulls took about 10 years to get their team together..and Wolves + raptors are still trying to get a better draft that will lift them.
By fighting on even though we miss the playoff, at least we(or the players and franchise) retain whatever honour and dignity we can scrap … without the passion where everything down to forged glory, we might as well play a console game right?
Right
Exactly why the players and coaches can never tank.
The Front Office on the other hand, can change the roster in such a way that it makes the team unlikely to win a significant number of games, without asking anybody to sandbag it.
Voted most likely to say "I told you so"
TO be sure..
But I have seen FO dump players thinking tha tit would result in a horrible record, and the players come together and play out of their minds…Just a thought…
Let's do this...!
Yep, if you create a vacuum,
then SOMEONE will definitely step up to fill the hole.
The question is how efficient that someone will be. Our hole filler would likely be Dudley or Brown. Either way, we’d suck.
Voted most likely to say "I told you so"
Amen, Brother
Some teams have talented young players just waiting for a chance to shine. The Suns have nothing but role players who have had that chance and were unable to be more than role players. Management has stocked this team with mediocre players, head cases, and castoffs. It always comes back to management. Robert Sarver, can you hear us now????



























