It's Not the Team...It's the Fundamentals.

by Keith Owen Martin on Jan 18, 2012 2:18 PM MST

I'm tired of it...I don't want to hear the talk of offense being stagnant, I don't want to hear about how with a couple of moves this team "could" be good again. In fact I don't want to hear another word about how we are missing this or that or that it comes down to players not playing to potential. What it really comes down to for the Phoenix Suns so far this season is as simple as the basic ways to play the game of basketball.

The reason I don't buy the tale of lack of talent in Phoenix is because we are seeing that it can be done with less. Two teams in particular are "outperforming" by most standards. The Utah Jazz and the Philadelphia 76ers. These two teams have some of the least known lineups in basketball, both expected to do very little this season and yet the 76ers are second in points allowed behind only chicago and first in opponents field goal percentage. How could this be with a lineup of raw young talent and fading veterans. It simply comes down to defense. What Philly has managed to do is keep the teams it's played from feeling like a single shot will fall, consistently contesting jump shooters while hustling back to help in the paint making the teams utterly demoralized when they play against them. This is the key to a good defense, it has to be stifling, as a team they must put a symbolic lid on the rim so that when given open jump shots the player hesitates and misses.

If you look at what Phoenix, we started off doing exactly that...we lost a couple close games we could have won, but we were constantly causing havoc on the other teams moral by keeping them from getting to the hole and rotating out on their shooters so they felt like they never had any room to operate. Well in the past 6 games or so that has stopped completely. Gentry has consistently said in post game interviews that this can be blamed on the offense being stagnant and the shooting being porous. I call bull s@$% on this, because in the last 4 games we have been averaging over 95 points a game. Now while this is not the Phoenix Suns offense of old I think we can win games with that many points, regardless of the shooting percentage. If we look at Chicago's numbers they only average 95 points a game and still have managed to pick up the best record in the East, by locking down opponents and stifling their feeling of hope the Bulls make the other team beat themselves.

Utah also only averages 95 points a game and while they don't have the godly defensive numbers of Chicago they still keep teams to only 93 a game and that is what the Suns were managing in the early part of the season until we fell back on to old habits.

Last night we gave up an irresponsible 118 points to a Derrick Rose-less Bulls team, since he is the center of their offense this will be a loss that very few Suns players will be able to shake. Don't expect much to get better tonight, unless they remember what this team has to do to win games, and that is scrap...it...out!

I know it's not fun to watch the Suns play defense, I know that Steve Nash is accustomed to a fast pace, but if we want to be a winning team anytime in the next year we will have to embrace the way "winning" teams play. Go search Suns and defense on youtube and you will get a myriad of results titled things like, "Lebron tears through Suns defense", "destroys defense of Suns". It's officially embarrassing.

Poll

Where do we go from here?

All Defense the offense will come.

22 votes

Scrap the season.

14 votes

Offense is the key.

6 votes

Shut up and win ball games.

25 votes

67 votes | Poll has closed

Tweet Comment 29 comments | 1 recs |

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Comments

The Photo in your post

demonstrates a great part of what is wrong with this team. You have a role player who is about 6’5" trying to guard a stud superstar who is 6’11". A team needs talented players to make success possible.
Management is respondsible for putting talented, athletic players on the floor, providing support and then hiring the right man or woman to coach that team., Of late, Suns management has simply not provided a good pool of talented players.

by da suns on Jan 18, 2012 11:27 PM MST reply actions

Its not about the pieces

If it was Utah wouldn’t be kicking ass in the western conference. I will give you that the team has to not be entirely made up of scrubs, but the Suns are plenty talented with Steve Nash, Marcin Gortat, Grant Hill, Markieff Morris and Channing Frye. What they aren’t is a consistently strong defensive team, and unfortunately that is what this team needs to be best at. Im talking top 5 defensive team top 20 offensive.

If we can manage that I think we have a strong season, but we need to stop talking about who is not on this team and start talking about who IS on this team. Thats how you win ball games.

Check out my blog:
http://walkingonthesuns.blog.com/

by Keith Owen Martin on Jan 19, 2012 12:23 PM MST up reply actions

Utah may not have big names

but they’ve got a tremendous number of athletic players.

We have, uh… uh… Shannon Brown?

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Jan 19, 2012 1:01 PM MST up reply actions

I’m with you, Keith. We have enough talent to be doing better than we are . We should definitely be better than Utah. Fortunately, we have played better the last 2 games. Will it continue? Hill is finally rounding into form. Dudz is playing better from the bench. We still need to get Frye going. Morris has completely disappeared. Will we ever click on all cylinders?

by BringBackBarkley17 on Jan 21, 2012 2:10 PM MST up reply actions

I don't agree for one reason

This reason-

Im talking top 5 defensive team top 20 offensive.

Bad plan as long as Nash is still our franchise player. It’s just not going to work. We tried it before and failed. It’s just not going to happen.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Jan 21, 2012 2:25 PM MST up reply actions

First off dudz is 6'8

Get your facts right before making analysis.
Seconds dudz being matched up on dirk isnt why our team sucks. Since when had I foward who defends well being matched up on another star forward been the end of a team. Hell bynum got switched on nash and nash made him look like shit. Does that means the lakers suck? No. sometimes a picture is just a picture

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Jan 20, 2012 2:32 AM MST via Android app up reply actions

Official measurements are 6'5 without shoes, 6'7 with shoes

Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."

by rsavaj on Jan 20, 2012 10:11 AM MST up reply actions

Hmmmm I wonder if dudz ever plays without shoes

Though im pretty sure we base size off of wearing shoes

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Jan 20, 2012 12:20 PM MST via Android app up reply actions

Hahahaha

That’s a nice comeback!

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jared-Dudley-181/ shows 6’ 5.75" no shoes, 6’7.25" with – so you are either just as just as wrong as the poster, or just as right – depends how you look at it.

by MMotherwell on Jan 20, 2012 4:20 PM MST up reply actions

No he was right

Point is Dudz always wears shoes. We would never say well Dudz is 8 ft with stilts, or 3-4 ft while sitting down….You go by standard conditions

by Will Smith on Jan 20, 2012 4:34 PM MST up reply actions

Can you wear stilts?

If so, I want a player that wears stilts. A 9’ tall point guard…sweeeeeet

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Jan 20, 2012 4:46 PM MST up reply actions

Thank you

I was wrong how the guy above you said I was right when his link prove s me ecen more correct

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Jan 21, 2012 11:22 PM MST via Android app up reply actions

Well, he's not 6'8

By either measurement

by rsavaj on Jan 21, 2012 12:57 PM MST up reply actions

Me off by 3/4 of an inch

Other guy off by 2’ and 1/4 inches.

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Jan 21, 2012 11:28 PM MST via Android app up reply actions

That's a fantastic picture

"The Knicks with the swiss cheese defense.
...Vince Carter likes cheese." -Walt Frazier

by ajcarleton on Jan 19, 2012 7:43 AM MST reply actions

Right? lol

Check out my blog:
http://walkingonthesuns.blog.com/

by Keith Owen Martin on Jan 19, 2012 12:23 PM MST up reply actions

Utah and Philly have better players

It doesn’t matter if you have not heard of them. Also Doug Collins is a better coach the Gentry and the Sixers actually made the playoffs last season. Utah has benefited from an easier opening schedule and players that actually are good at defense. Brand, Iggie, Holliday play excellent defense. The Suns are not good at defense as evidenced by their lack of rebounding and opponents Do not confuse bad shooting by the opponent with good defense.

It’s easy to say “play defense” or “execute fundamentals”, but when your roster is starting players that wouldn’t even make a roster on other teams it’s easy to see why this is a losing team. The only changes from last year’s losing squad is replacing VC and Brooks with Brown and Price + drafting Morris. Certainly not enough to go from losing to winning team.

by oLLiE Boombayay on Jan 19, 2012 4:54 PM MST reply actions

fundamentals

Gentry is responsible to teach this, right? Yes, players are accountable too, but if Frye doesn’t know to put a hand in Boozer’s face, or get closer than 3 feet when he is defending, than the coach needs to correct this.My biggest peav is PF not getting post plays run through him. Gentry is teaching Morris to look for his three point shot first. The list is huge. I am glad you ran this article Keith. One other quick point that pissed me off. I counted 7 suns player with 1 foul or less against the Bulls. Seriously. When a player is out playing me, I am going to foul him. Not let him have a career night shooting. Come on Gentry, marshmallo defense needs to stop, for the love of Thor.

by rdgroce on Jan 19, 2012 7:04 PM MST reply actions

There is very limited practice time

because of the condensed schedule. As a result, developing fundamentals has to take a back seat to things like establishing an offensive scheme and a defensive scheme.

So, players are playing according to their habits. Guess what team has some shit habits on defense?

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Jan 20, 2012 9:55 AM MST up reply actions

good point

Hopefully as the season progress these issues will be addressed.

by rdgroce on Jan 20, 2012 10:05 AM MST up reply actions

This is an odd post

Defence isn’t about fundamentals, it is about the system. The Suns system is overly complicated and really hurts our rebounding by forcing smaller players to cover bigs off ball, and by having players play too far off their man to cover everyone else. We run a really weird, hybrid man-zone with a pressing, trapping element that I dunno, just looks like really ineffective to me.

by MMotherwell on Jan 20, 2012 4:53 PM MST reply actions

what you just described is the fundamentals of defense.

When players learn to force the player they are guarding into traps, bad positioning, and forcing passes into clogged lanes we will be a better team. All of which are part of our so called scheme. What I was arguing is that it’s not about talent, or offense it’s about a smothering defense that contests everything and makes the other team feel as though everything they shoot is a prayer.

I appreciate the fact that you also see the Suns trying to do too much on defense, but it is very important to realize that the problems are due to fundamental defense mistakes. These passed 2 games have showcased how good the teams defense can be. We have the inside presence, we have the good defensive wings with lateral quickness, and we even have a good backup point guard who can stay with his man.

Lets just not worry about offense.

Check out my blog:
http://walkingonthesuns.blog.com/

by Keith Owen Martin on Jan 20, 2012 8:59 PM MST up reply actions

I think they showcased how bad other teams can be

when they don’t have their starting point guard.

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Jan 20, 2012 11:54 PM MST up reply actions

I appreciate the fact that you also see the Suns trying to do too much on defense, but it is very important to realize that the problems are due to fundamental defense mistakes.

Defensive fundamentals are, to me, getting in a proper stance, keeping your hands up, how to hedge on a screen, not leaving your feet on shot fakes, getting a hand in a player’s face when they shoot and knowing where to be. I don’t agree the Suns make mistakes in fundamentals, like getting into the proper stance or not leaving their feet, they are getting burned because of the system they play.

The Suns play a weird hybrid of both a zone, man-to-man and neither, which can best be described as “I can’t believe it’s not man-to-man and I can’t believe it’s not Zone”. This system requires players off the ball to hedge constantly on cutters. This leaves us really vulnerable to offensive boards, because our bigs rotate so much and keep so much separation from their man.

Watch these clips as some background, and don’t watch the ball, watch the OFF ball players:

1. Grant Hill covers the lane from 2 cutters – First Hill steps into the lane to cover the passer who cuts past a posting Duncan, and then steps in to protect a cut against Nash. Notice how this all happens off ball, with Hill expected to be aware of two players OFF the ball, as well as the ball.

2. Gortat covering and switching – First Gortat covers the strong side, protecting against a Parker on Nash drive, switches after a Duncan screen, then switches back as the shot is taken. This time, it all worked out, but Gortat is drawn a LONG way out of position, and Nash is expected to cover Duncan in the meantime – a near impossible task. That Gortat makes it back to boxout is a testament to his hustle, and perhaps TD’s lack of energy.

3. Gortat plays a kind of zone – Gortat plays off Duncan, hedges a screen, then as the ball swings through Jefferson to Parker in the corner, RJ runs a back screen towards the hoop for an alley oop. Gortat, playing almost like a weakside forward in an NBA zone, steps in to cover the lane and breaks up the play. This is what our D looks like when it works perfectly, but notice how far Marcin is from Duncan, and how all the players don’t really stay with their man – this is what kills our rebounding as it is almost impossible to recover in time to boxout when you are a long way from your man.

4. Luke Walton’s OReb and Kobe’s Dunk – the game was pretty much over (down 9 with 3.27 to go) but this play killed the game off completely. Kobe gets a ball after running through a few screens (notice Frye and Gortat “bump” / cover Kobe a bit during this run), and then Frye covers the lane (Kobe had just beat Hill off the dribble for a dunk), and when the shot goes up, Frye is a long way from Walton. This leaves Dudley and Nash to “miss” a boxout (I say “miss” because, really, that is a big mismatch). This is what happens when we get our scheme wrong. I’m not sure if Frye is supposed to track back to Walton or stay where he is, and if Dudley is expected to make that boxout, but either way, Frye was in a difficult position, as were Dudley and Nash.

I just don’t think it is fundamentals holding back the Suns, but rather a super complicated system that requires players to watch the ball, their man and players OFF the ball as well. AFAIK, the Suns are the only team that runs this style, and I have never seen a system like it, so I can’t really comment on its effectiveness. But man, it ruins our defensive rebounding, and requires perfect communication, rotations and awareness. A big ask for any team, let alone a Sun’s team.

by MMotherwell on Jan 21, 2012 4:50 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs

So I forgot to save what I wrote back to you...

and I went to a different page, so…since I don’t want to re-write everything, I agree.

This will never happen again, so I salute you sir!

Check out my blog:
http://walkingonthesuns.blog.com/

by Keith Owen Martin on Jan 21, 2012 11:00 AM MST up reply actions

The defense doesn’t look that complicated to me.

Strong side defenders stay on their man. Weak side defenders sag to the lane. Bump cutters. Force players to the baseline (and out of the key) so that the bigs can help.

Every man to man defense is going to look pretty similar.

that requires players to watch the ball, their man and players OFF the ball as well.

As an NBA player, you should be able to do this.

BAMF goes HAM.

by brian13 on Jan 21, 2012 11:06 AM MST up reply actions

Who else plays like this?

I can’t think of anyone. Usually, you either double or stay on your man, you don’t watch off ball cutters, and besides like I said, it leaves players incapable of boxing out.

by MMotherwell on Jan 21, 2012 1:58 PM MST up reply actions

Jump down to "Man-to-Man Defense - Defensive positioning off the ball - Deny, Helpside, Help and Recover"

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/M2MDefense.html

This helpside positioning almost looks like a zone away from the ball and puts our defenders in a better position to help prevent inside passing and dribble-penetration.

I don’t know of the top of my head which teams play like this. All I’m saying is that it’s a pretty basic defensive strategy.

As far as not being in position to box out.. yes, being in helpside puts you further away from your man, but it’s definitely not impossible to box him out. You should know where your man and the ball are at all times so it should be easy to find him (unlike #4 on your list where Frye doesn’t even make an effort to find him).

BAMF goes HAM.

by brian13 on Jan 21, 2012 3:16 PM MST up reply actions

Mimai plays this scheme

I watched them the other night – they play this way.

Man, they make it look like a GOOD ides – we make it look bad. The difference is athleticism.

But back to the point. watch the Grant hill video – no one has guys cover OFF BALL cutters that way – no one, especially not on the weakside.

Watch a few plays and try to work out who has who, and who covers whom when a guy doubles, and when they swap back – it really is a complicated defence.

by MMotherwell on Jan 22, 2012 9:26 PM MST up reply actions