A Look Into the Suns' Declining Three-Point Shooting
We can forget holding out hope that the Suns might drastically improve and make the playoffs this season. It's pretty simple: if you manage to lose to the Nets, Cavs and Raptors all at home, you're just not a good team at all. There's no two ways about it.
There's all kinds of reasons for this, namely an inability to execute on offense, especially when Nash sits, along with poor defensive efforts (save for a few games when it was impressive). There's also the fatigue factor, with the shortened and packed schedule seeming to be a bad thing for a team where two starters are almost 40. But let's not go over all that. What I want to look at is the shooting, specifically, the three point shooting.
Since the 2004/05 season when Nash returned to Phoenix, the Suns have been known as a great three point shooting team. Their ability to space the floor with good shooters who could knock down their shots was as vital to their success as anything else. Here's a look at the percentages for each season since Nash returned, along with the key performers from three point range. We'll ignore those who didn't shoot much, for example Maciej Lampe shot .667 from 3 in 2004/05, but only had three attempts.
(all stats taken from Basketball Reference)
2004/05 - 62-20, lost in WCF, first Nash MVP season
Suns shot .393, best in the league.
Best performers: Joe Johnson (.478), Jim Jackson (.459), Steve Nash (.431)
Not including Quentin Richardson, Shawn Marion, Leandro Barbosa and even Walter McCarty and Casey Jacobsen, who all shot between .334 and .385
2005/06 - 54-28, lost in WCF, second Nash MVP season
Suns shot .399, best in the league.
Best performers: Leandro Barbosa (.444), Raja Bell (.442), Steve Nash (.439), Tim Thomas (.429)
And that's not including Shawn Marion, James Jones and Eddie House...
2006/07 - 61-21, lost in WC semis.
Suns shot .399, best in league. Exactly identical to previous season.
Best performers: Steve Nash (.455), Leandro Barbosa (.434), Raja Bell (.413)
Again, not including Marion (although he dipped to .317), and Jalen Rose (.447 but only 21/47).
2007/08 - 55-27, lost in first round. Marion/Shaq trade.
Suns shot .393, a slight dip but best in league once more. Identical to 2004/05.
Best performers: Steve Nash (.470), Raja Bell (.401), Leandro Barbosa (.389)
Once more this doesn't include Marion's .347 clip through 47 games before his trade. Grant Hill's first season as a Sun saw him shoot .317 and that's about it. Nash's amazing .470 seems to have carried the team's %.
2008/09 - 46-36, no playoffs. Cheers Porter.
Suns shot .383, dropped to 5th best in league after four straight seasons of being 1st.
Best performers: Raja Bell (.468), Steve Nash (.439), Jared Dudley (.394), Jason Richardson (.383)
After those 4, there's only really Barbosa (.375) and Matt Barnes (.343) worth listing. Dragic and Hill combined only made 44.
2009/10 - 54-28, lost in WCF, the revival year.
Suns shot .412, their best since Nash's return, and of course back to best in the league.
Best performers: Jared Dudley (.458), Channing Frye (.439), Steve Nash (.426), Goran Dragic (.394), Jason Richardson (.393)
Grant Hill shot .438, almost good enough for second best on the team, but that was only 35/80. This is clearly rhe best season of three point shooting, with FIVE players amazingly hitting basically 40% or better, six when you include Grant nailing those corner threes he used to hit, even if in small doses.
2010/11 - 40-42, no playoffs. The beginning of the end, no more Amare.
Suns shot .377, good enough for 4th best in the league, but their lowest of the Nash era.
Best performers: Jared Dudley (.415), Jason Richardson (.419), Steve Nash and Grant Hill (both .395), Channing Frye (.390)
After those 4, there's Vince C*rter (.366) and Mickael Pietrus (.342). Apologies for reminding you of them.
And then we arrive at this current season:
Suns currently shooting .334, 17th best in the league. Seventeenth.
Best performers: Markieff Morris (.486), Sebastian Telfair (.417), Steve Nash (.375), Ronnie Price (.357).
Telfair and Price combine for only 1.1 attempts per game, so perhaps it's unfair to list them, but Channing Frye is shooting a mere .323 and Jared Dudley a .320, both a far cry from their previous seasons for the Suns. Shannon Brown is more or less the same at .326. And then we have Michael Redd, brought in to try and give the team a scoring boost. He's shooting .250 whenever he does actually make it onto the court. I suspected Grant Hill would have the worst shooting percentage, and he does. Those corner threes he used to knock down at a clip of .438 two seasons ago? Gone.
Grant Hill is shooting .158. Thankfully he's only averaging 0.2 attempts per game which is half of what he averaged in 2009/10.
The team as a whole is averaging exactly 19 attempts per game so far this season. By comparison, it was 22.6 last season, and they averaged 21.6 the season before (2009/10) when they shot their best from downtown.
So those are the stats. The Suns are more or less shooting the same amount of threes as last year, but with far worse results. Why?
Short training camp/packed schedule
The excuse/reasoning in the first few weeks was that the players were not in prime condition and that the shots would start to fall once the players' conditioning improved. With the exception of Steve Nash who showed a noticeable improvement in his shooting once his ribs recovered, that hasn't really been the case. Is there still time for it to happen? Possibly. I'm not hopeful. It seems strange that every single player's success rate has dropped.
Lack of inside presence/less floor spacing
Gortat has done really well offensively in the majority of games, the Boston one being the best example. He's no Amar'e though. He doesn't have as big an arsenal of weapons in his armoury, he's not as explosive, he doesn't force teams to double team him, and so on. The result is that the Suns don't get to space the floor and have open men as much as they used to, so a lot more of the shots are contested and/or rushed. That's my theory anyway, although I don't have the stats to back it up and frankly I'm statted out by this point. Just thinking back at the games played so far this season, it's hard to recall some clearly open three point attempts. Frye always seems to have an arm in his face, ditto Dudley. But then, the Suns didn't have Amar'e last season either and weren't nearly as bad.
Slower offense
It could well be the slower offense, leading to slower ball movement and failing to swing the ball to the open man as effectively as they used to. There's a noticeable lack of pace in the offense this season, and it's definitely related to the team's poor three point shooting.
Cheap imitations
The most obvious reason is of course that the players currently on the roster simply aren't as good outside shooters as what the previous rosters had. Where there was once Q-Rich, Barbosa, Raja, J-Rich and the likes, the Suns now have Shannon Brown, Ronnie Price, Sebastian Telfair and a finished Michael Redd. That's the most obvious thing. The Suns used to be deep with competent three point shooters. Now, they have only three (Nash, Frye, Dudley), with two of them just not producing.
The Suns are no longer a good three point shooting team, that's the reality. Even if Frye and Dudley start hitting their shots, they are still going to be a distinctly average three point shooting team. With this roster, there's sadly no way out of that.
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I agree with all those, although I didn't think about the slow pace.
Not surprised though, I mean look at who they signed to replace guys like Dragic/Brooks, Barbosa/Pietrus, J-Rich/VC.
Shannon Brown, Ronnie Price, Sebastian Telfair
The FO’s plan is to be a good team next season, not this year, that’s why these guy were signed and signed to one year deals. I know they thought we could still be competitive, but they were wrong.
Last year they tried to make this team good, but Sarver signed and traded for the wrong guys. The only time we actually looked like a playoff team that year is when Frye, Gortat and Nash were all performing like all-stars. That’s not going to happen again.
So pretty much, these past two seasons have been a waste. Things haven’t worked out for us or the Knicks since Amar’e switched teams.
Don't trade Dudley!
So basically
The FO is banking on getting a superstar?
Joe Saunders: "They Giants played a really good game, so hats off to us"
And yet... most of the marquee players of free agency are already signing extensions.
Love, Gallo, and Westbrook have already signed extensions. D-Will is basically waiting on what happens with Dwight Howard and we won’t know what’s up with Eric Gordon any time soon. We won’t have a legit shot at any superstars but there are other players that are pretty good (a couple are way too old like KG, Ray Ray, and Captain Canada) so we’ll just have to wait a see.
Just because Steve Nash has that "dirty hipster" look doesn't mean he's in need of a shower. Steve Nash bathes in the tears of his victims on a nightly basis.
Mark of a Beast, baby. Mark of a Beast.
I agree with where I think you are going here...
In an era where the marquee talent is thinking along the lines of the big 3 from Miami, good free agents are looking to go to hopeful situations where there is a good chance of winning. With no Nash, there is not enough hope for success here to get good free agents, and the extension signing going on, only makes things worse.
The only hope I see, is what Bickley suggested..tankage + a high draft pick which leads to a better core, centered around Gortat, Morriss and the new draft pick.
don't know what happened to my post and how 2 half versions were posted, but
Ya we don’t get superstars to join a losing situation. Without Nash, I don’t think this is a situation true superstars are looking to join, and it is possible that is even true if Nash stays.
I think we might want to direct ourselves to the
very recent history of the Oklahoma City Thunder. What this franchise built was done in a slow, methodical, and thoughtful manner. They are easily the deepest team, and talent for talent, easily the cheapest. We have the talent we need, all we are missing is the right person to pull it together.
If I ever gave good advise, I assure you, it was purely by accident.
by Walter ChronKite on Jan 26, 2012 9:17 PM MST up reply actions
Great post.
Conditioning – The end of the lockout was announced the day after Thanksgiving. That was two months ago. How long does it take? This season has been pathetic league wide.
I also agree with the floor spacing, pace, and talent observations.
Maybe it will get a little bit better, but I think the season is far enough along to draw the conclusion that the three point shooting is going to be markedly worse for the season.
The Suns would have to shoot at a 42% clip for the next 17 games (assuming equal # of attempts) just to get back to last season’s percentage. Doesn’t seem likely.
It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.
Totally agreed on the pathetic nature of the game play.
This is a really crappy season to watch so far, and that’s not including Miami’s retarded black uniforms, nor all the injuries that happen to those we want to see play.
If I ever gave good advise, I assure you, it was purely by accident.
by Walter ChronKite on Jan 26, 2012 12:37 AM MST up reply actions
I don't think spacing is the issue
I can’t think of anyone NOT named Shanon Brown who has taken a bad 3. Frye, certainly, isn’t getting less space – he’s just flat out missing.
Dudley is the same – two guys that used to look confident and smooth suddenly look skittish, and for good reason.
If they both regress to the mean, and hit somewhere around .370 for the year, I really this team is solid.
Your double negative is confusing.
If I ever gave good advise, I assure you, it was purely by accident.
by Walter ChronKite on Jan 26, 2012 12:38 AM MST up reply actions
With a double negative,
it is impossible to understand exactly which point the speaker is trying to illuminate. The possibility exists that one of the negatives was unintentional, or that the speaker was hiding their true feelings behind a misleading statement. You could have just been drunk (which is the preferable way to watch the Suns this year).
And then there’s the messed up nature of the sentence, minus the negatives:
I can think of anyone named Shannon Brown who has taken a bad 3.
It is a strange way to say he isn’t making his shots.
If I ever gave good advise, I assure you, it was purely by accident.
by Walter ChronKite on Jan 26, 2012 9:09 PM MST up reply actions
I didn't think it was that complicated.
And then there’s the messed up nature of the sentence, minus the negatives:
“I can’t think of anyone, except Shannon Brown,” is a simplified version.
“Not named” is (usually) intended to draw specific and overt attention to a person. Excepts are often ignored, but not named is pointed, and is supposed to make that person stand out.
YMMV but it doesn’t seem that complicated to me!
by MMotherwell on Jan 27, 2012 12:38 AM MST up reply actions
You were still missing the coma. I win?
YMMV?
If I ever gave good advise, I assure you, it was purely by accident.
by Walter ChronKite on Jan 27, 2012 7:05 PM MST up reply actions
YMMV – I could tell you but that site is way more fun :P
Glad you said this so I didnt have to.
There have been tons of wide open threes for most guys. Particularly Frye. He is jus not hitting them.
This is very unscientific, but I sense it is a chemistry thing. Think about it- in the last really high chemistry season, they hit their highest percentage of threes. Then last year, horrible chem, low %. This year, bad chem, bad %.
When they have cohesion, and are having fun, they hit shots.
Also, I don’t think there are a lack of 3pt shooters per say. Not that they are all Joe Johnson, but brown, Morris, telfair, and even price have shown they can knock them down. Our percentage is really hurt by the guys that used to be money for us: Hill, Frye, and Dudz. And if they were hitting hem, the new guys would get even more open looks.
Until we get a team that feels like a real team, not in transition full of rentals, I fear this will continue. High draft pick here we come!
Grant Hill for prez.
by sun-arc on Jan 26, 2012 9:04 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
There is no way
I will believe someone is missing open shots because of chemistry. We only have 2 good 3 point shooters (Frye and Dudley) and both are struggling. Everyone else is not as potent from 3 so I am not as surprised they are struggling.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
I'm 32 years old, 20-30 pounds overweight with
tendons in my right knee that have been torn for 2 years, even I can knock down some threes. If Telfair, Brown, & Morris are the strength of your arguement, maybe we should reconsider the point?
If I ever gave good advise, I assure you, it was purely by accident.
by Walter ChronKite on Jan 26, 2012 9:13 PM MST up reply actions
What is this, Athleitics anonymous?
I’m not sure many people can make > .333 NBA 3FG%, even if they were left wide open in an empty gym.
I think Morris (close to ,500) is a good shooter, and Brown hits .336 for his career, which is break-even (eFG% of .500), but certainly Telfair is historically ordinary, even if he is currently second on the team in 3FG% at .417 (small sample size and all).
by MMotherwell on Jan 27, 2012 12:43 AM MST up reply actions
Cmon
80% of them are wide open.
Seriously, I could list 50 D-league players who could hit 35% of open 3’s.
Especially that those are guys with pretty fresh legs during the game – neither plays more than 25 minutes most games…
Feed the cutter!!!
by Piotr Szczesniak on Jan 27, 2012 7:04 AM MST up reply actions
Oh I agree
Brown is horrific, and so is Telfair., and Blake Ahearn would hot ~.500, but I think we do have shooters. Dudley, Frye, Hill, Nash, Morris all hit above parity from 3.
I agree. We’ve missed a lot of open shots.
by BringBackBarkley17 on Jan 28, 2012 3:17 PM MST up reply actions
Those are still bad examples
that sun-arc was using.
If I ever gave good advise, I assure you, it was purely by accident.
by Walter ChronKite on Jan 27, 2012 7:06 PM MST up reply actions
Consider the pressure on Duds and Frye.
In prior years, if one or two guys were off, some else would be on. Not on this team. They have to feel that at least a little bit.
I am positive Dudley does feel it
Not so sure about Frye. We asked a lot out of him last season and he was much better than this year. Dudz needs to just be the hustle guy / game changer coming off the bench.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
The lack of scoring has me dumbfounded too.
I agree with MMotherwell, if they start hitting half of all the open 3s, this team will win. How can Duds and Frye be so crappy? The only skill all NBA players work on constantly is shot making. I don’t get it at all. Plus there is no flow in the games this season. Half court offense is painful to watch, and I think it keeps the shooters out of rhytham. This season has to be the toughest season I can remember to watch. Nothing points to hope, or improvement. At least not this season.
Handy men Earl. We are Handy, Men.----- Valentine McKee
You seem to be forgetting that Channing Frye and Jared Dudley are role players.
Frye and Dudley are very very good bench players. As starters, they’re average talents at best. There’s a reason these guys aren’t All-Stars. They play hard and do their best out on the court, but that’s all we’re gonna get: their best. And their best is just not as good as a lot of other players’ bests. They may be good shooters but at the end of the day, they’re role players so inconsistency is to be expected.
Even though our lineup of Nash, Dudley, Hill, Frye, and Gortat have the best +/- differential for any 5-player combination, that speaks more about how bad our bench is rather than how good that lineup is. I know people want to be optimistic about this team, but there really is little talent to spare on this team. That’s me being realistic.
Just because Steve Nash has that "dirty hipster" look doesn't mean he's in need of a shower. Steve Nash bathes in the tears of his victims on a nightly basis.
Mark of a Beast, baby. Mark of a Beast.
by NashMV3 on Jan 25, 2012 9:11 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
That shows how good they were
Our starters regularly developed leads. The bench lost them. Dudley and Frye are fine 4th and 5th starters, that wasn’t the issue. The issue was the bench was just so very very bad.
Price is starting, but he hasn’t seen a massive increase in minutes. Dudley and Frye are there to shore up the bench scoring, more than anything else.
Good analysis and stats-
I don’t think the FO really cares about anything but $$, except for Childress, who is getting one half million raises before his 5 year contract ends in 2015, and who they wasted over $33 million on in a five year contract. The new player agreement should allow Sarver to make $ even if attendance drops off at games. I think it will be many, many years before the SUNS get to the western finals gain. With the current management and owner, maybe never. Steve Kerr was smart to leave town when he did.
One glaring deficiency with the SUNS is: Do we have ONE player who can produce 2 or more 28-30+ points games in a season? Or average 20+? JRich-yes, he is gone. Gortat maybe. Hill did 30 last year, Dudley did it maybe once in his career. Nash might hit 30, but probably not at this point in his career. Hill is 39, Dudley, in my opinion, was never more than an average or below average 2nd teamer, the guy has no athleticism, and now is fading on 3’s. Frye will never be more than he is now, a streaky shooter and not consistent on offense or defense. Morris is going to need a lot of work to improve his game. Brooks could score but lucky for him he is in China not Phoenix this year. Gentry is as flighty as Frye with his player changes, why he didn’t play Hakeem for 1 minute against Dallas is a mystery, the SUNS needed some scoring, Hakeem has a nice shot and 1 on 1 moves. He also doesn’t get lost beneath a sea of flying bodies when he goes to the hoop like Dudley.
The only player who is enjoying himself on the SUNS is Gortat, he loves to play hard, and starting at center, racking up double doubles, beats playing second fiddle to Superman. Gortat is the future of this franchise at this point as Nash and Hill near retirement.
To me its a bit of a perfect storm..
On a prior thread, I posted that I thought Dudley and Frye shooting % are the keys to the season.
For what its worth, I think its a bit of a perfect storm. With the entire starting 5 coming out shooting badly, and with the early season injuries to the best 2 players, Nash and Gortat, that had to put a lot of extra pressure on Frye/Dudley, who are the only 2 who have not yet showed signs of returning to last years form.
The other big part is that this has always been an execution heavy offence, meaning its more dependant on passing, high shooting %‘s from many players, and a heavy dose of execution and chemistry. In a shortened pre season situation, I think you are seeing that the less complicated offences, relying on a higher % of Iso’s and post ups, and defence creating turnovers and run outs, will be a bit more effective. (notice the ascendancy of Philly along side Miami and Chicago this season?) So I see this as a factor as well.
I also see the hesitation in Nash this year as a factor, where he doesn’t have a reliable 3 point shooter on his wing, causing further execution woes and lack of flow. Overall, it all kind of falls in on itself as the poor shooting seemingly begets more bad shooting.
To just say, well Frye and Dudley are role players and this is all you can get from them…inconsistency, well I say that sells them a bit short, but I guess the proof is in the pudding….If they don’t get better over the next 20 games or so, I will have to agree.
But while we are in death spiral now, better shooting by Dudley and Frye would really have a big impact on turning this team into something that is at least watchable.
I'm not sure we aren;t creating good shots
Ffrye and Dudley just kjeep missing them.
Here’s a funfact: the 7/19 is .368 – 6/19 is .316 – the difference between an OK percentage and a bad one is 1 miss in 19. Frye has hit 20/62, and if he had hit 22/62 – 2 extra makes – that is .355
So I think there really is hope – we just need the shots to start to fall.
I think there
aren’t a lot of good shots being created in the 4th quarter. When teams trap Nash hard, there is seemingly no answer now. In the past this ability seemed to be reserved for San Antonio in the playoffs, but now many more teams can seemingly do that. and the response to that is only more talent and more confidence to go to the hoop and to make a shot.
But I do agree that a lot has to do with just missing shots. And it is just a few shots, in those 4 key lost home games that could have really turned this around.
The concern I have is how long we can go before there is serious phoning it in, where further problems develop for a team really starting to lack confidence.
Yes
The bad shots come in the 4th quarter mostly. We get it to guys who shouldn’t have the ball with time running down and then they also take a bad shot (since there is no shot clock left usually).
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!

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