Phoenix Suns Sluggish Pace Is (And Is Not) Related To Rebounding Woes
by Seth Pollack on Jan 6, 2012 11:07 AM MST
in Phoenix Suns Commentary
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The Phoenix Suns are not playing fast. They said they want to continue to play fast AND focus on getting better defensively. They said that being good defensively helps you play faster. Those things are true and yet they rank 23rd in the league in Pace with just 90.7 possessions per 48 minutes.
So what's going on?
On Thursday Alvin Gentry talked about the sluggish Pace and said:
Phoenix Suns playing at unusually slow pace so far this season
"If you give up 20 (offensive rebounds), that's 20 times you don't get to run," Suns coach Alvin Gentry said.
There's truth to that, of course, but the situation clearly is bigger than just rebounding. History tells us that bad defensive rebounding Suns teams still played fast.
Here's the data:
WARNING: We should ALWAYS be wary about small data sample sizes and SIX games is a small sample size.
The upside with small sample sizes, however, is that we can look at individual examples. Using the game logs from Hoopdata.com we find the following:
- The Suns worst rebounding games were against the Hornets in the road win and against Dallas on Wednesday. The Suns Pace in those games were 90 and 93.
- In the Suns best rebounding game against Golden State, the Pace was 92.
- The Suns fastest game was against OKC (Pace: 97), and the Suns were basically even on the glass.
So is there a connection between rebounding and Pace? Sure, but it's far deeper than that. We all remember the days when the Suns were running on misses and makes. That was run and gun.
The problem now, it seems, is the team isn't in the up-tempo mindset. We see it in the half court where guys aren't shooting early in the clock even if they get an open look. Better rebounding will help initiate more fast breaks, but playing fast is more than that.
The issue is guys shooting poorly so they are not confident in taking shots which leads to extended possessions and often getting a bad looks at the end of the clock .
The issue is players not having enough time in the preseason to get into an up-tempo mindset.
Words like "rhythm" and "confidence" might sound hollow, but I think that's contributing to the slow start more than rebounding.
That's good news, by the way, because with time that mindset, rhythm and confidence should improve and the rebounding will get better too once Marcin Gortat takes off the thumb splint and the rotations solidify a bit more.
So don't worry, the Suns haven't turned into the Snails that we've seen so far. At least I hope not.
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Actually i noticed this last season
And i hoped that when Childress were healthy he will be the slasher on this team, right now, we don´t have that.
Brown seems to be playing in a running system all time, that´s why he seems so lost on court, because everybody else is set and he is running.
Blind enough to believe on Pudgemonster.
I've noticed this too
and it just seems to me that we have to direct some accountability to Nash. Nash doesn’t seem interested in playing fast with the clock anymore. In fact, I noticed a few times in the GS game that Nash had to “hurry” across the midcourt line to beat the 8-second clock.
Funny that the Suns have gone from shooting in 7-seconds-or-less to barely crossing midcourt in 8.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
It could just be because he doesn't have his legs yet
That or age has finally caught up to him.
Don't trade Dudley!
I was wondering about this as well...
Is this a deliberate thing from Gentry…I don’t think so…Maybe Stevie doesn’t have the confidence that his teammates can play at a faster pace….
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
It's 10 in college and below.
8 in the NBA.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
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Even more reason to press
I can’t believe more teams don’t run the press.
bazinga.
"What's with today, today?" - Lucas
by Walter ChronKite on Jan 6, 2012 4:30 PM MST up reply actions
yeah- it was really odd
I’ve seen him do it maybe 10 times in a season- he did it 10 times that game.
Me no like.
Grant Hill for prez.
by sun-arc on Jan 6, 2012 8:04 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Running is not only about speed
is about how much gasoline you still have in your legs…
And we are an old team now, so is not simple to do that. Even our fastest players like Dudz, Price, Telfair and Brown struggle to finish the fast break plays.
And still, if you don’t have confidence, nothing will come easy
"Steve Nash is more valuable for the Suns than Kobe for the Lakers" - Jared Dudley
The conditioning just is not there yet.
Steve was really looking his age those first couple cames.
"What's with today, today?" - Lucas
by Walter ChronKite on Jan 6, 2012 4:30 PM MST up reply actions
Confidence is a big deal, in my opinion.
Personnel seems to be a bigger differnece than in previous seasons, too. There’s been a gradual decline in the run and gun firepower that was maxed out when Nash, Johnson, Richardson, Marion, and Stoudemire were the staring five. Four of those guys are gone, as well players like Barbosa, Draw, a good Raja Bell, and some other contributors like House, Dragic, etc., -
Compare that to the current Suns’ roster, with their ability and chemistry issues, and it’s not surprising that this team struggle to get good scoring chances at a rate that previous squads did.
The lack of offensive confidence from the backup PG’s has been a problem. Price needs help running the offense because he’s not a guy who can break down a defense. He plays great defense which makes it hard to keep him off the floor.
It amazes me to no end how we went from the 7SOL Suns
who were in a 3 way tie as the most exciting team to watch in NBA (Jordan’s Bulls and The Showtime Lakers) to futility. I don’t recall a team being stripped of it’s soul so slowly and so painfully and the Nash Era Suns.
It’s so F’n B.S. that we have a penny wise owner who is dollar stupid.
"What's with today, today?" - Lucas
by Walter ChronKite on Jan 6, 2012 4:34 PM MST up reply actions
amare
suns were so smart to not sign him, NY already is looking to move him
He was perfect here. I garauntee it was something other than money that made
Amar’e pick NY over who he was here.
"What's with today, today?" - Lucas
by Walter ChronKite on Jan 6, 2012 4:37 PM MST up reply actions
agree
but, I think NY made a huge mistake for 5 guarunteed years. We will see
I understand the Knicks motivation to do it
but we knew Amar’e’s health situation and they made a bit of a bad decision to do those 5 years.
"What's with today, today?" - Lucas
by Walter ChronKite on Jan 6, 2012 4:40 PM MST up reply actions
agreed, RD. As an owner, I would have done the same thing Sarver did. Not his fault.
by BringBackBarkley17 on Jan 6, 2012 8:26 PM MST up reply actions
It was his fault signing the wrong players though
He really messed up on that one…
Don't trade Dudley!
amare
he thought more palyers were going to join him
He should have known better though.
How many above average players were allowed to leave? And just start with the role players like Kurt Thomas.
Little things like that is why I say Sarver is penny wise and dollar stupid.
"What's with today, today?" - Lucas
by Walter ChronKite on Jan 6, 2012 4:42 PM MST up reply actions
Dunno about that
Look at NOLA – their owner QUIT. Sarver was unlucky in that he has limited revenue, and always had a lot of expensive veterans. The mistake was not getting more rookies, because they are CHEAP.
But to say Sarver was dollar stupid is harsh. I’d rather have Sarver than what NOLA or Sacramento has, which is basically a wait until the team moves.
agree and disagree
confidence is a real problem- but…
we defintely have the players to run: Nash, Price, Telfair, Brown, Hill, Chilly, Hak, Lopez. Compare that to Tim Thomas and Diaw (the year Amare was out), and we could look awfully speedy now if we had the gumption.
But, the rotations are not clear, and the momentum isn’t there. I remember the attitude D’antoni had, saying “it doesn’t matter if the opposing team makes their shot or not, dunks in your face or airballs the shot- you get the ball and RUN!” I loved that idea. Demoralizing shots or lack of D just rolled right off their back, and they’d get the ball down the court for a layup while the other team was still celebrating. And, it seemed to be infectious on our players. They bought into the system. To me, THAT is what made them fun to watch. They played the game THEIR way, and their pace, no matter what the other team did. They imposed their will (more often than not).
Last year and this season thus far, no identity, little will, no imposing tempo, no joy, little flow…
I hope it’ll come with conditioning and time. I hope they get chemistry and boundless energy to fight for each other, and get the wins for each other, as well as for us as fans.
I still got hope.
Grant Hill for prez.
by sun-arc on Jan 6, 2012 8:16 PM MST via mobile up reply actions 5 recs
Demoralizing shots or lack of D just rolled right off their back, and they’d get the ball down the court for a layup while the other team was still celebrating. And, it seemed to be infectious on our players. They bought into the system. To me, THAT is what made them fun to watch. They played the game THEIR way, and their pace, no matter what the other team did. They imposed their will (more often than not).
That’s why a 20 point deficit only felt like 6 points then.
Don't trade Dudley!
Demoralizing shots or lack of D just rolled right off their back
and a 20-pt lead only felt like 6 as well.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Jan 6, 2012 10:32 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
So true.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
If you can't shoot, it doesn't make sense to run...
The whole reason to speed the pace is so you get more possessions in the game. If you’re the better shooting team, this gives you an advantage since presumably you’ll convert at a higher percentage than the opponent.
If you’re not a good shooting team (and we’re not), the smart thing to do is slooooow down and try to grind out a muddy, ugly win in the 80-90 point range.
If we’d tried seven seconds or less against Dallas, we’d have lost by 30.
I'm Michael Beasley's imaginary friend.
by suns68 on Jan 6, 2012 2:44 PM MST via mobile reply actions
Ah, someone with their thinking cap on.
That’s why trading away good shooters last year wasn’t such a smart move.
Who did we trade away?
We lost VC, Brooks and Pietrus – hardly great 3 shooters.
The real issue has been – http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&season=&player_ids%5B%5D=265&player_ids%5B%5D=264&player_ids%5B%5D=269 – Nash (.320), Frye (.200) and Dudley (.318) shooting poorly. Once all three start to hit in the late thirties, say .370 and up, we’ll look a LOT better.
that is true
Gentry might be wanting to slow it down for that reason, and we just aren’t good enough defensively to win with that tempo.
And, yeah, losing VC (who wasn’t THAT bad of a shooter, may the lord set him on fire), Barbosa, and especially Richardson definitely took away shooters. But it’s the attitude that seems like it just isn’t there to win games.
Grant Hill for prez.
by sun-arc on Jan 6, 2012 8:20 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
That's partially true.
But pushing the ball and taking quick shots should also theoretically produce higher percentage shots because the defense hasn’t had time to set up yet. Plus, if our pace is unusually fast, opponents simply aren’t used to getting back so quickly and will run out of gas because we should be in better condition and better used to the pace.
Where we run into problems is when we try to run with teams that are more athletic than us, like the Nuggets. They can’t wait to get into fast paced games with us because they run us out of the building with their young, fast legs.
The problem isn’t that our shooting isn’t good enough as much as it’s that our team isn’t athletic enough.
Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo
No threat inside
Gortat 100% hopefully will change alot of things tonight?
Problem with that theory is you need skilled players to do that.
Suns don’t really have those skills. You can’t keep down grading talent and expect to be able to use the same system.The skills on this team are pretty meager by NBA standards once you go beyond Nash.
Oh, Garrett Siler we miss thee and thy skills....
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
Bazinga
The problem is we have too many guys with mistmatched weaknesses/strengths, rather than guys without skills.
Amar’e (rebounding, D), Diaw (rebounding, aggression) and Marion (shooting, dribbling) all had weaknesses, but together they were killer. Hak, Lopez and Frye all have the same weaknesses (rebounding, D), and the same strengths (shooting, scoring).
But there is hope – a lot of hope – if Frye, Nash and Dudley can just hit a gorram three at a decent clip. If they can, we’ll be fine.
yea, we need to start making shots, but we will. Need to get Channing right, primarily.
by BringBackBarkley17 on Jan 6, 2012 8:28 PM MST up reply actions
still out of sync
Gortat will be able to pick n roll with Nash tonight, which will collapse the defence more, which will create more room for the outside shot. Question now is, can the outside shot fall? Suns rely so much on the inside game to open up the outside game (remember Amare). This is why the lane has been so cloged lately, coupled with poor shooting = ugly.
This team can still improve
Frye, Nash and Hill all shooting much worse than we know they can.
Gortat, Hill and Nash all have been injured to start the season.
Those two facts alone will at least allow some positivity.
Carter having a glazed-eyes contest with Boris Diaw. Carter's winning, but Diaw might respond by eating his eyes.
I tell yah
That will be the GREATEST feather in the Suns training camp hat if we can turn Redd around.
In a really weird way, if Redd does play well, he might end up our best trade bait. I can imagine a contender be willing to drop a 1st rounder for a shooter like Redd at the deadline. And that’d be unreal.
I'm going to disagree because there are too many 'Nashty' monikers.
Beyond that, this team is coming together in a better fashion than what happened last year. After all, we did add by subraction. Gone are 2 players who never quite had their head in the game, and we brought people in who have a chip on their shoulder and something to prove.
"What's with today, today?" - Lucas
by Walter ChronKite on Jan 6, 2012 4:36 PM MST up reply actions
Guys, you miss the main reason alltogether!!!!!
You have to have dependable rebounders to run or you don’t run at all.
To set up a fast break you got to cherry-pick a lil bit. One of the guys needs to take a walk towards the half court line to be ahead of his defender. BAM
…and now you wonder why we give up the offensive rebounds?!?!????
I’ve seen it a hundred times already this season – when the other team takes the shot and the ball is in the air – there is already one two Suns players making a move to run.
and guess what – there is nobody to BOX OUT. and we give up rebounds and the other team gets a second chance, and again. and finally when we get the ball, after scoring points the other team is already set up on defense.
For this fast break style to work we would have to have at least two above-average defensive rebounders who get the ball after the first shot 90% of the time. WE DON’T. Gortat is good, Kieff is great (but he sits with fould most of the time). If these two are not on the court together – we leak rebounds left and right…
So my solution for this team – forget the fast breaks! BOX THE FUCK OUT. Limit the other team to one shot each possession. Then figure out the rest. We need 5 players to recognize their defensive responsibilties. And get it done.
Hopefully Gortat will change back to his old self on the boards (he is like Edward Scissorhands right now with the broken finger) and Kieff can stay on the court for extended minutes game after game. Only then we can start running the break.
Feed the cutter!!!
by Piotr Szczesniak on Jan 6, 2012 4:47 PM MST reply actions
Seth's chart refutes that, no?
The Suns’ DReb% so far this season is roughly the same as it was when the Suns had some of the fastest paced teams in the league.
Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo
Stick your tongue out at him.
If I ever gave good advise, I assure you, it was purely by accident.
by Walter ChronKite on Jan 6, 2012 5:04 PM MST up reply actions
Actually, this thread has me thinking back on the book "Seven Seconds or Less"
Think I need to read it again as a refresher. Anyone out there who hasn’t read the book by Jack McCallum, I highly recommend it.
But as I recall it, and the point I think Seth was making here about the running mindset, that 05-06 team was going to run no matter what. That’s who they were. This team now is lacking identity. They do seem somewhat improved defensively, but maybe due to Nash being old, or due to him or the rest of the team not having their legs yet, or due to them simply not being athletic enough any more, they don’t have the “we will run no matter what” mentality any more.
Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo
I'd rather
not see that again, actually. Between watching the Suns and Mercury run for the last so many years, I’m not a huge fan of the style…
BUT, they certainly can play faster and not reckless. I think that’s the goal.
Right now, it’s a mess but let’s give it a few more weeks before writing it off.
Raising Arizona Sports at SB Nation Arizona twitter: @sethpo
Right now, it’s a mess but let’s give it a few more weeks before writing it off.
That reads a lot less positive than I assume you meant it to be!
very funny
a few more weeks, and the season could be more or less over for the suns, unless they pull a “money ball” Oakland A’s 20 game win streak. Our fans, and the town, sure could use something like that with the suns.
Grant Hill for prez.
by sun-arc on Jan 6, 2012 8:24 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I LOVE THAT BOOK
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"Great things come to those who work."
by Dragic_is_Magic on Jan 6, 2012 5:51 PM MST via Android app up reply actions
All true Suns fans do...
Those were the days…
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
?
who ever was that person in years past? rebounding always was the issue.
referring to Piotr Szcz post
we never had a rebounder and half the team was mid court by time the shot hit the rim
At 6'7".
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
holy macaroni do I miss that
you know what I notice there is that Marion is EVERYwhere. Rebounding, slashing, running, dunking, stealing, passing, boxing out…
Chilly is no Marion. Hill has been pretty close at times, but no one was as fast and everywhere as Shawn. I remember coach D saying, “when I take Shawn out, I feel like I have to replace him with 4 players.”
Grant Hill for prez.
by sun-arc on Jan 6, 2012 8:28 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
That game 4 comeback of the 07 Spurs/Suns semis where we finally looked like we could beat them
Was because of Marion. He was all over the place defensively that game. He’d get stop, throw the ball to Nash, Nash to Amar’e, SCORE!
Don't trade Dudley!
You know, If NY offered to unload STAT back to us...
say for Childress, Frye, and a bucket of chicken, plus pay part his salary…I’d definitely be fore it…
STAT may be gone but the Suns will rise....! BTW, If positivity is a crime, I plead guilty by reason of T-Bird...!
too bad we don’t have Turk anymore. We could offer Turk, Childress and Warrick for him. ;)
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