Phoenix Suns' Marcin Gortat Draws Fewer Oohs And Ahhs Than Prior Suns Big Men
by Alex Laugan on Feb 17, 2012 6:43 AM MST
in Phoenix Suns Commentary
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For such a big guy who likes to mix it up on defense and grab rebounds in traffic, it sometimes appears that Marcin Gortat is reluctant to draw contact when he has the ball in his hands. He will duck and weave and fade like a contortionist to get a clean, unfettered shot at the rim.
Heck, the Polish Hammer doesn't even seem interested in crowd-pleasing slam dunks. I don't believe I've ever seen a dunk in traffic from our Polish Hammer. Even when the defense parts like the red sea, he is more inclined put up a lefty layup than rattle the gym with a two-hander.
But maybe I'm biased. Maybe my NBA-colored glasses are tainted from years of watching high-flying, slam-dunking Amare Stoudemire roam the hardwood for the Suns, basically playing the same position that Gortat now occupies, and regularly dunking in traffic and on the pick and roll. Maybe I'm biased by memories of Shawn Marion getting dunks in transition and on back-door cuts. And certainly I'm biased by the sports network highlight reels.
In fact, a quick look at basketball-reference.com shows me evidence of my bias.
Gortat ranks 12th in the league among centers (C, C-F, F-C) in free-throw attempts per game, even though its a mere 3.8. That's nothing to sneeze at.
You might argue that some of those guys don't get the touches that Gortat gets, so of course they won't get the foul calls either. But even when you rank Gortat in terms of those centers with the highest field goal attempts per 36 minutes (ie. the most offense-oriented centers), Gortat still compares favorably.
So maybe I've just been harsh on Gortat because I was spoiled by Amare's ferociousness.
Instead, I should be thrilled with his consistent 15, 10 and 2 along with stellar defense, and stop waiting for the Hammer part of his nickname to emerge in the form of Amare Stoudemire.
Marcin's Hammer is his consistency - just like a carpenter's hammer. Every game is like a fresh nail. He pounds the floor, pounds the opposition and delivers the same results. 15 points. 10 rebounds. 2 blocks. Stellar defense.
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Yep, consistency is the key.
I mean, he himself prefers to be called “The Polish Machine”. He is what he is – a freakin’ double-double machine, not Amar’e 2.0.
Be thrilled when the SUNS get a FG
A powerful dunk can be a momentum play in a tightly contested hard fought physical game, for the SUNS this year, it has mostly been done against them. The SUNS have little in the way of consistency, physical or mental toughness beyond Nash and Hill, and Marcin. Morris has shown more physical presence on the court and around the hoop than Frye and Dudley combined, which is a sad testament on the two veterans, both of whom seem to be fading in performance and value to the team.
you are right, Alex
Gortat is a type of player who doesn’t go hard too often. As I said earlier he’s a gentleman big guy.
Greetings from Poland, chn.
I'm not putting this on Gortat
But I agree with catamaran, a dunk can be an extremely important pychological weapon. It can give a team spunk, excitement and even momentum; these are coincidentally all things the Suns lack.
This probably isn’t reason alone to give HAK playing time, but its close
true
by dunking you intimidate, you establish authority that no one can block his shot and finally you bring the fans out of their seats. I hope Marcin reads it :)
Greetings from Poland, chn.
You're mistaking pyrite for gold...
Stoudemire was big on showy dunks, but disappeared when it came to playing defense. Gortat mixes it up often alone under the defensive basket, Amare usually wasn’t anywhere to be seen under the defensive basket.
Where's soco?
by NASCARbernet on Feb 17, 2012 10:08 AM MST reply actions 3 recs
so true
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Feb 17, 2012 11:13 AM MST up reply actions
Amare also averaged 5-10 more points a game and nearly always outscored his man
And we won a LOT more games.
So it would seem to me whatever defensive deficiencies he might have had really were not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.
I'm Michael Beasley's imaginary friend.
by suns68 on Feb 17, 2012 11:25 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
But Amare left and the team has been in the toilet for 2 years,
so there’s an understandable contempt for him that pervades this forum. I don’t agree with the contempt, I just understand it.
Gortat is just a dirt worker, he’s not flashy. It’s hard for a player to contrive ferocity. By this stage they are what they are. They can’t manufacture truculence.
Gortat is a very solid player, but he’s not going to viciously attack the basket. He’s not going to bang inside or intimidate opposing players. That’s not in his nature.
It’s what we want versus the reality of the situation.
Another example: I want Nash to score more in crunch time, but that’s not his nature. It’s hard for a zebra to change his stripes.
It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.
by Jim Coughenour on Feb 17, 2012 2:06 PM MST up reply actions
How many NBA championships has the Great and Mighty Oz
I mean Amare won for all of his ferocity? Right, a great big zero.
Where's soco?
by NASCARbernet on Feb 17, 2012 5:08 PM MST up reply actions
15 and 10 is cool ...
Statistically, that’s about what Shawn Marion gave us in the heyday.
It works better in terms of wins gained when you also have another guy scoring 20-25 a game and adding another eight boards or so.
PS, Polish Machine sounds good in the spoken language, but seeing it in print makes one think of this:
I'm Michael Beasley's imaginary friend.
by suns68 on Feb 17, 2012 10:38 AM MST reply actions 4 recs
Shawn Marion was a better player in his heyday
04-05- 19, 11.
05-06- 22, 12..
06-07- 17, 10.
07-08- 15, 10. He started to decline at this point. Also, only so many shots to go around with Hill on the team.
I would even include some of his earlier years as being a part of his heyday. Marion was a top 15-20 player throughout that time. I don’t think I’d include Gortat in the top 15-20 today.
Don't trade Dudley!
Completely agree
Shawn was such a GREAT player for us. Marcin still has time to develop though, he hasn’t even had a full season of starting in the NBA yet.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Is the expectation really that the $7m/year Gortat should have replaced the $18M/yr Amare?
And we’re bitching because, though Gortat is a better defender and rebounder than Amare, he doesn’t dunk enough?
This isn’t aimed at you, Alex. Great breakdown here. I realize the blame game is in full effect with this craptastic season but damn. Gortat’s “lack of ferociousness” ranks somewhere around #500 on the problems with this team.
Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo
by East Bay Ray on Feb 17, 2012 12:07 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
I had it at 497 on my list, but okay...
Still, it’s an interesting question. I think it’s part of developing Gortat as a leader, a role he is almost certainly going to have to embrace on this team eventually. I know that I got fired up all out of proportion when he threw down in that Atlanta game – I thought it would fire up the team, but…
Part of why $18 M/yr Amar’e is $18M/yr is because he threw down those ferocious dunks – for MG, it may be worth his while to throw a few more down.
Personally, I think it would be more helpful to the team if Gortat were to dunk Price and Telfair.
"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
"In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip."
Don't trade Beavis
oh I KNOW this comment was aimed directly at me, Ray. I’ll get you back.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Let me continue my rant not aimed at you, Alex.
As long as you’ll get revenge on me anyway…..
When Gortat got here, the knock was that he was nothing more than a slightly upgraded Louuuuu. Then he became the Suns best bench player.
Next, it was said that Gortat wasn’t good enough to be a starter. He earned the starting job to close last year.
Then it was said that he wouldn’t be able to average a double-double. He was untested, you know, and those per 36 numbers versus other bench players didn’t mean anything. He’s not as good as guys like Emeka Okafor!
So, here he is averaging a double-double as a starter, putting up comparable numbers to the oh-so-hyped Andrew Bynum and he gets knocked for not being Amare Stoudemire? If anybody here, on the day that trade was made, could have told me he’d be doing what he’s doing now and people would STILL NOT BE HAPPY with it, I’d have called them nuts.
Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo
by East Bay Ray on Feb 17, 2012 3:08 PM MST up reply actions
Thank you haha
He is the best center this team has had in sooooooooooooooo long. I never thought we were getting this quality of a player at the time we made the JRich trade. I love the move now, even though we really miss the scoring JRich provided us.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Gortat is far and away the best Suns center
since Mark West.
Where's soco?
by NASCARbernet on Feb 17, 2012 5:11 PM MST up reply actions
Totally, the guy is no Amar'e, but he's still pretty good
I’m happy about and for him.
Don't trade Dudley!
Thank Jeebus he's not Amar'e. Gortat has knees, and I don't think he's missed a game to injury.
"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
"In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip."
Don't trade Beavis
If you like ferocious
there’s cage wrestling. You’ll find that refinement isn’t altogether appreciated there, too.
Where's soco?
by NASCARbernet on Feb 17, 2012 5:10 PM MST up reply actions
he is overrated quite a bit
unlike any other center in the NBA the vast majority of his offensive production comes from finishing pick and rolls.
he is assisted more than any other center basically thanks to Nash.
And his stellar defense is only man-to-man, as a held defender he is average.
He is sill a good starting center but still more of a role player than actual impact player. He can’t really take over games like Amare could. Amare finished the pick and rolls just as well or better plus was able to do more on his own offensively which allowed him to often score 30+ while Gortat has like 2 25 points games in his career and that is that.
Overrated?
By what standard are you measuring overrated, frankly I believe most coaches and gms in the league would consider Gortat underrated. He doesn’t get that much press outside Phx despite being a top five center stat wise. Its laughable that you don’t consider him an impact player, without Gortat this year the Suns would have won 4 games. If you consider Nash’s shooting woes the first 2 weeks of the season, Gortat has clearly been the most consistent Sun.
by sunschat.com on Feb 17, 2012 2:04 PM MST up reply actions
really?
The Suns record since the Gortat trade has been worse than prior to it. That is reality.
While he puts up good consistent volume stats he is a product of Nash offensively. (He scores like 5 times as much easy pick and roll baskets than any other good center in the NBA, and is assisted on more baskets than any other).
He is somewhat of a gimmick center offensively, that is why he doesn’t get that much press and why he is not a high impact player.
You really think if Gortat truly was a top 5 center in the NBA that a team with Steve Nash and a top 5 center would be one of the 7 worst teams in the league? Two top 5 players at the critical positions and a lot of solid role players?
On a good team Gortat would be the at best the fourth best player in the starting lineup.
I say he is overrated because the majority here thinks that he is a near allstar caliber player, but that is clearly not the case imo.
by TruthTelling on Feb 17, 2012 2:12 PM MST up reply actions
The Suns record since the Gortat trade has been worse than prior to it. That is reality.
that’s not Gortat’s doing.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
The real meat of the trade
Was getting Gortat but having to give up J Rich (Our best scorer by the way, Truth) to dump the contract of Hedo. It was a brilliant move for the FO to get such a quality player for a player they weren’t going to resign (JRich) and a terribad contract (Hedo).
If this team still had JRich, we would have a much improved roster (IMO).
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Basketball is a 8-10 man sport
I am telling you a top 5 PG, Nash and our bench is the reason we suck.
But let me ask this: replace Gortat with who you believe is the 5th best center (which is whom by the way?), and how many games do we win? With this bench that regulalrly losses double digit leads.
True this
the lack of depth on the bench is this team’s ultimate undoing.
Where's soco?
by NASCARbernet on Feb 17, 2012 5:13 PM MST up reply actions
How can he not be #3 on a championship team?
He is probably the best P&R center in the league. He tends to get a lot of his shots assisted, but that doesn’t mean he sucks. He is without a question a top 10 center in the league (I think 5 might be a stretch). He is a double double machine.
He doesn’t get the press because he has been a backup his whole career (to Dwight Howard) and has a total of less than a full season of starting games. He also doesn’t play on a big market team.
In the games Nash has sat out this season:
vs. NJN – 20 points 10 rebounds on 10-14 shooting
vs. Dallas – 17 points 10 rebounds on 7-12 shooting
vs. Denver – 7 point 14 rebounds on 4-13 shooting
Last season in games Nash sat out:
vs. NOH 17 points 6 rebounds on 6-9 shooting
vs SAS – 10 points 9 rebounds on 5-10 shooting
vs LAC – 10 points 11 rebounds on 4-8 shooting
vs. Houston – 12 points 8 rebounds on 6-9 shooting
vs. ORL – 12 points 4 rebounds on 6-9 shooting
I am really just looking at the percentages he is shooting in the games Nash is out and this shows that he is clearly still very efficient on the offensive end. He is not a pure scorer, but he can still get you baskets at a good rate.
I am not trying to say Gortat is a star, but a 3rd best player doesn’t need to be a star and that is what I think Marcin is.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
by Airwave on Feb 17, 2012 2:36 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
I think were overreacting a bit
Gortat does have a big impact on this team, but not as big as Amar’e did. Not even as big as Marion did during his prime. Both were better players and did more for their team. Gortat’s impact is similar to J-Rich’s impact. Both are borderline all-stars and good #3 options. Right now, Gortat is our #2 option and that is why our team sucks.
Don't trade Dudley!
I am aware
He doesn’t bring what Amar’e brought or even Marion (at this point in time (remember, Gortat has not even started a full season in the NBA)). Not trying to argue that he is as good as them at all. I am just saying I think he can be a 3rd best player on a championship team. He does very well with Nash, but he isn’t only dependent on him to be a good player.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Why the Amare comparison?
Not sure how this thread turned into the Gortat vs Amare, they are 2 completely different players and I don’t think anyone has stated that Gortat is better than Amare.
by sunschat.com on Feb 17, 2012 3:06 PM MST up reply actions
Gortat is a better defensive player overall
than Amare. There, the ice is broken. You’ll thank me later.
Where's soco?
by NASCARbernet on Feb 17, 2012 5:13 PM MST up reply actions
Have you looked at the Suns roster lately?
Its silly and ignorant to compare the Suns record with Gortat vs prior, simply because their roster is completely different than it was 3 years ago. You act as though because Nash is a great passer, Gortat’s points are a piece of cake. What makes Gortat such a competent scorer in finishing the pick and roll is his spacing and ability to use his off hand, something most centers have difficulty with. In the last decade, name one center who was better shooting with his off hand than Gortat, you won’t find one. Calling him a gimmick center and crediting all his success to Nash is laughable. He’s been in the top 5 in field goal % all year, impressive when you consider how few dunks he gets.
If anything is overrated, its the “solid” role players you keep referring to, where are they? The only 2 Suns players who have higher scoring averages this years vs last are Gortat and Dudley(he just went over with his scoring the last 2 weeks), everyone else has dropped their production this year. The Suns have 8 players shooting under 43%. Gortat is the last player on the Suns you should be looking at for their woes. The exciting thing is you have a 28 yr old center averaging a double double who hasn’t even played 2 full seasons of significant minutes, he’s only going to get better.
by sunschat.com on Feb 17, 2012 2:58 PM MST up reply actions 3 recs
He was comparing it to the record of the 2010-11
team prior to the trade compared to after.
The Suns haven’t exactly been playing stellar team basketball since Gortat arrived on the scene, but as we all know, wins and losses is one of the worst ways to track the performance of a basketball team.
I think there is at least a shred of truth to what he’s telling us.
It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.
by Jim Coughenour on Feb 17, 2012 5:04 PM MST up reply actions
I think when he meant overrated, he meant overrated by us.
Gortat is just as he describes, “a good starting center but still more of a role player than actual impact player”. The rest of league doesn’t seem to pay attention to that, but it’s only because our team sucks. That’s why he’s underrated everywhere else. Here it’s a different story. We tend to overrate guys.
Gortat does have an impact, but so does Dudley, Frye and our 09-10 bench. Everybody has some kind of an impact on the team. Gortat is no franchise player, but Amar’e was. That’s my definition of an “impact player”.
Don't trade Dudley!
Impact means one’s actions have a direct significant correlation to the team’s production, Gortat is definitely an impact player on the Suns. He’s the Suns leading scorer, yet you don’t want to call him an impact player, lol.
by sunschat.com on Feb 17, 2012 3:17 PM MST up reply actions
And leading rebounder
But gaining possession of the ball and putting it in the basket don’t impact the game, I guess…….
Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo
by East Bay Ray on Feb 17, 2012 3:29 PM MST up reply actions
They're all impact players
Gortat’s impact is similar to J-Rich’s impact. Both are borderline all-stars and good #3 options.
Don't trade Dudley!
I would contend that Gortat is the Suns #1 option, getting the ball to him in position is generally the Suns first option on offense. His passing out of the post creates shots for most of the rest of the players. Nash gets a large % of his shots when the offense has broken down and he is forced to shoot, he’s hardly ever the first option.
I agree somewhat with the J Rich comparison, because both Gortat and J Rich have the ability to create their own offense. However, shooting guards are a dime a dozen in the league, finding a consistently productive center has always been difficult for most teams in the league.
by sunschat.com on Feb 17, 2012 5:25 PM MST up reply actions
I was just comparing their impact
When we traded J-Rich for Gortat, our team didn’t get any better, but it didn’t get any worse either.
Yes, Gortat is our #1 option on offense and our #2 best player. That just goes to show that we’re a bad team. On a contender, Gortat would be the #3-4 option on offense and #3-4 best player on the team. Of course, he can still improve.
Understand that I’m not comparing the players game, but their impact. Gortat=J-Rich in that sense.
Don't trade Dudley!
Birthday buoy
Good timing for the article guys, he just turned 28. Happy Birthday Marcin! Anyways, his project GORTAT TV is running now. I’am about to check it out.
A little off topic but it does include Gortat.
Reading over some other blogs about the dreaded “Rebuilding” word i think Seth mentioned about how quickly the Sonics/Thunder could rebuild. The thing that stuck out the most with me was they traded Ray Allen when he was still at his best, now they got Jeff Green which they flipped into Kendrick Perkins, was that worth Ray Allen? That’s another story all together.
It just got me thinking about Gortat. If we build via the draft for a couple of years Gortat might not be around by the time those picks develope, even if they do. Gortats trade value must be at a all time high right now and if the Suns wanted to go young he might be our best means of getting the next wave of young talent to the Valley of the Sun.
The Wolves are trying to get Gasol from the Lakers and are offering a package around this years 2nd pick of Derrick Williams. Should the Suns see if Gortat might get Williams or something of that nature. That would mean we’d have a young core of Morris, Williams, and this years lotto pick.
If we have to wait a year or two more while they develope then fine, we might get another lotto pick along the way just like the Thunder got with Harden or that cap space we have might be able to get us some picks in a salary dump, you know a la Serge Ibaka – Kurt Thomas deal.
Thanks for reading my insane ramblings while i sit in Suns basketball purgatory.
Why?
The Suns have been trying for 2 decades to get a consistent double/double player at the center spot, they finally get one and you want to trade him? He hasn’t even played 2 full seasons at starter minutes, how can you say his trade value is at an all time high? Since Gortat only played sparingly as a backup his early years, he’s got plenty of mileage left and probably won’t peak production wise until after 30.
by sunschat.com on Feb 17, 2012 5:15 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Gortat not a dunker?
Have you watched the Lakers game? What about his mighty off-hand dunk over Gasol and Bynum? Not spectacular enough?
Besides, compare yesterday’s stats. Gortat had more points, rebounds and steals, less turnovers and a higher FG% and FT% than Bynum and he’s an All-Star. Meanwhile, he has better stats than Marc Gasol and more double-doubles. And Gasol is an All-Star, too. If Gortat played on a bigger market, he would be the All-Star, because his numbers are among the best in the league on the C position. Gortat is underrated and on a better team he could put on even bigger numbers, I believe. As it now, everybody knows the Suns will run pick’n’roll with Nash/Gortat. Why should they guard Frye or Dudley who miss the majority of their shots? They focus on Gortat which makes it very tough for him to score. And still, he delivers, every night, even with Nash off the floor.
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