Steve Nash Again Refuses To Ask For Trade; Debunking Suns 'Cheap' Myth, Again
by Seth Pollack on Feb 18, 2012 1:12 PM MST
in Phoenix Suns Commentary
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PrintGuess what, Suns fans. Steve Nash has once again told the national media what they don't want to hear. He will be defying all their wishes and remaining with the poor, humble, unfortunate Phoenix Suns destined to wander the final months of this contract in desert self-exile.
Somehow folks don't seem to understand how a guy could be willing to stay in Phoenix when he had other choices like Los Angeles (!) or Miami (!) or New York (!).
Of course, he doesn't really have those options because trades are much more easy to talk about in abstract than to pull off in reality, but never mind that.
Their confusion is kind of amusing really. But Gary Payton did it! But LeBron did it! But Chris Paul did it! But Dwight Howard is doing it!
How can Steve Nash NOT DO IT!!
It must be because he's Canadian!
Writer, please....
Here's what Nash told Mr. J.A. Adande of ESPN while in Lala land this week:
No trade noise from Nash - TrueHoop Blog - ESPN
"I’m not oblivious to [the chance of] playing on a contender," Nash said. "But at the same time, especially in the position I’m in right now, I feel a sense of loyalty to my team. To go and ask for a trade, it’s not like I’m going to say, ‘Trade me to...’ He made a circling motion with his finger, as if he were about to land it on a destination..."I think they are in slightly different scenarios," Nash said. "Mine’s a different scenario at this stage in my career. I don’t want to jeopardize or turn my back on my teammates for that limited…let’s say, unknown."
Maybe Steve understands something they don't. Maybe Steve knows that there's really nowhere else he could go where he'd be allowed to play the game the way he loves to play it.
Do you think Nash in Miami would be running the offense like he does here? Do you think Kobe would just turn over the reins to Nash? Do you think Nash could even beat out Jeremy Lin for a starting spot on the Knicks if there was even a way for New York to trade contracts they don't have to make the salaries work under the CBA?
Anyway, this horse is well beaten so let's move on to another pet peeve of mine as represented by this statement from Adande:
If he asked out after giving eight great years to a Phoenix Suns franchise that has repeatedly made fiscal obligations a priority over championship aspirations, could anyone blame him? [emphasis added]
This is such a 1%'er way to look at the world. Consider that...
- From 2006-2011 the Suns had the 12th-highest team salary with an average of $69,097,467 per year
- The gap between the Suns in 12th and the Celtics in 4th on that list is "only" $6,318,913 per year
- The gap between what the Suns spent and what the top-spending Mavs spent was $23,777,855 per year (!) in pure salary and roughly double that when you include luxury tax.
- In other words, half the league was within a window of $65m to $75m per year and the Suns were right in the middle of that middle
- There were other contending teams like the Jazz, Bulls and Pistons that were well below the Suns in spending and yet they're not called "cheap"
Did the Suns make moves during the Nash era to save money that cost the team wins? Sure.
The Kurt Thomas salary dump in 2007 (which saved $16m and cost two first round draft picks) comes to mind. Selling picks, of course, will never be forgotten. But that money was used on payroll for other players. Then there's the Marion trade for Shaq that saved cost the Suns about $10m extra.
In a perfect world, the Suns would be in a huge market like New York or L.A. or have an uber-wealthy owner like Mark Cuban or Paul Allen but that's just not how life turned out. If you are a fan of rich teams, you should support rich teams, but the Suns are not "cheap" just because they're not rich.
So, did the Suns make "fiscal obligations" a "priority over championship aspirations"?
Only to the degree they had to operate within the same framework as 27 other teams not named the Mavericks, Lakers, or Knicks.
And just perhaps, a guy like Steve Nash understands all this better than certain media members in large east and west coast markets who can't get why Nash wouldn't want to "trade up" and play with the 1%'ers.
Maybe a guy like Steve Nash understands that in the grand scheme of his life, competing with people he loves and enjoying the challenge of the fight is more important than a piece of jewelry that he doesn't need to validate his existence.
We like to think that winning is everything for a true competitor but just maybe the competition itself is actually more fulfilling. The journey may be more important than the destination, especially when the destination has such little real meaning in comparison to the lives of 99% of the people on this planet.
There was a time when we applauded loyalty and humility in our athletes instead of making fun of them. If that's old school than so be it....NOW GET OFF MY LAWN!!
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asian girls everywhere...
UCLA
"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"
by phxpurple on Feb 18, 2012 1:28 PM MST via Android app reply actions 1 recs
Childish Gambino FTW!
Amazing reference.
by Bostonian Suns Fan on Feb 19, 2012 1:50 PM MST up reply actions
Troy Barnes
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
It's not because he's Canadian
It’s because he’s awesome.
Lebron jumped ship and left his team, fans and franchise to drown. Nash is going to down with us. Only the most loyal, responsible and courageous captains would do that.
I remember him saying a couple years ago that if he did win a title anywhere else, it wouldn’t feel the same as if he were to win it here. It wouldn’t feel as good. I respect that. It shows that he’s appreciated the journey as much as we have.
Sarver spent a lot of cash. The guy cares. He just spent a lot of it on crap and when he did decide to cut salary (07), it was at the most inconvenient time.
Don't trade Dudley!
by Beavis 25 on Feb 18, 2012 1:43 PM MST reply actions 3 recs
06-07 – $65.4m
07-08 – $70.5m
08-09 – $68.4m
09-10 – $75m
10-11 – $66m
11-12 – $63m
Twitter me at: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Feb 18, 2012 1:48 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
thank you
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Feb 18, 2012 8:11 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I know it's been awhile
but it Flagged instead of rec’ing! I Rec!!!!
I swear I hit REC!!
I hope it doesn’t do it again. (pretty sure it wasn’t me)
does it matter if Sarver cares?
he’s gotta get results! the only reason he spent as much money as he did is because he sold all of our draft picks for 3 mil a piece.
Which is what?
Specifically, what were his mistakes and what can he learn from them?
I can’t think of a lesson, except maybe sign shorter contracts, and DON’T chase a title if the salary situaion in three years is bad. We traded for Kurt Thomas, and traded for extra money for longer, should that trade (of Quentin Richardson), not been made?
Seriously, what are the mistakes, and what are the generalised that Sarver should learn? And by Generalized I mean not “don’t trade Kurt Thomas”, but the principal behind it like “don’t sign players earning over $8 mil who aren’t stars”.
Don't hand out a big contract when the player still has something to prove.
Don’t replace a franchise player with three role players, especially when one of them kind of sucks, the other is unproven and the other is 31 years old, on the decline and has a questioned reputation about his motivation or work ethic. Don’t hire an FO unless you plan on keeping them for the long-run, otherwise instability will occur. Don’t trade away draft picks for nothing.
Don't trade Dudley!
Not sure how can Sarver apply any of those lessons?
They seem rather specific!
But I’ll grant you the FO one, but maybe Kerr was never truly committed, or his wife hated Phoenix, I just don’t know. But if Sarver keeps Babby for 10 years, does that mean he did learn then?
Don’t trade away draft picks for nothing.
I’d say staying competitive is a good reason, e.g. they were traded so we could keep other, verteran players. But we can agree to disagree on that.
As for the first, if Amar’e breaks down, did Sarver learn the correct lesson or not?
The signing of JChill seemed good to me, but the lesson I’d go with is don’t sign ANY long term deals for non-stars, which is easier said than done, but a very good policy to go with, and Hedo, well that was just insane.
And the 31 year old comment – remember that this is the team that signed Steve Nash, an injury prone 30 year old, to a 6 year deal. That seemed nuts at the time, but it worked out great.
I think people exaggerate both the mistakes, which are actually trade offs between competing and being fiscally viable (i.e. both KT and Amar’e who is a potentially massive noose for the Knicks if his knees go), and how much can be learned from either success or failure.
Nash “proves” risky FAs can be golden, and JChill proves the opposite. Losing Lou shows how letting bench guys go when they exceed the minimum can be risky, and keeping Dragic shows how some seasons are flukes. Diaw shows that signing guys to big deals without performance guarantees can hurt, and signing KT shows how trading off scoring for rebounding and defence, and having a balance of both types of players, is great and can make a team a contender, and also how long term deals for non-stars can destroy a teams ability, long term, to stay fiscally sound and competitive.
Lastly, teams go through cycles, and that we are in a downward spiral is kind of inevitable. I still think with Crash Wallace, Batum and Ryan Anderson and re-signing Nash and Hill, we have a team that can win 50 games, but long term deals for any of the FAs outside D12 is a massive risk.
I’m reserving my right to judge until the end of FA 2012.
by MMotherwell on Feb 18, 2012 10:08 PM MST up reply actions
Agreed with most everything, except the possibility of signing any quality non-stars without giving them too many years. If the Suns had lowballed Channing, he would have gone to the Clips (who offered even more). No way Batum/Anderson/Wallace sign for fewer than 4 years.
Luckily, the new CBA saves NBA owners from themselves a bit, with 4-yr max on most contracts.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Feb 19, 2012 6:17 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Are you saying that Sarver can't possibly learn from his mistakes and that luck is what decides everything?
Or are you agreeing with me? Lol, I can’t really tell. You acknowledge some of his mistakes, but say that he can’t apply them to anything.
Nash "proves" risky FAs can be golden, and JChill proves the opposite.
Josh Childress hadn’t played with the big boys in two years. He shouldn’t have been given a big contract. He should have been give a 1 year deal to prove if he still has it.
Now the difference between Nash and Hedo is that Hedo had his motivation questioned and we were going to put him at PF from the start.
Diaw taught me to not sign a player who’s had a history of questionable work ethic to a long-term contract after one good season. Hopefully Sarver has learned that too.
Those 2010 signings were stupid moves that have set us back 2 years. The FO admitted it. Even my friend realized they were terrible moves from the start.
The biggest lesson that Sarv needs to learn is to get and keep guys that are good at making wise basketball decisions. Babby… are still new, so I’m reserving judgment.
I don’t agree with you on the picks to keep veterans. Banks, Rose… were all signed. Them to together is about 6-7 million. The draft picks should have at least been traded for young players with potential, not an old Rose and unproven Banks who wanted to be a model more than a basketball player.
I guess we agree on some things, but others we don’t . That’s OK, we have our reasons and it was a good debate.
Don't trade Dudley!
how about don't sell almost every one of your draft picks
our issues right now stem from that.
A couple things
Mine’s a different scenario at this stage in my career. I don’t want to jeopardize or turn my back on my teammates for that limited…let’s say, unknown.
He knows it can’t happen, thats why he’s not asking for a trade. he doesn’t want to damage his reputation by asking for something that probably can’t happen. this offseason, he’s outta here.
I don’t know what kind of car J.A. Adande drives but let’s speculate that it’s something like a BMW 525i. I drive a 2006 Toyota Prius that’s now paid off. That doesn’t make me cheap. It make me someone who’s living within the bounds of my reality even if I’m not in the upper echelon of street race contenders.
Like you said, don’t expect to win a race!
I think its tough to argue that the Suns went “all in” on winning a championship. They were constantly flip flopping between a money saving mindset and title winning mindset. The sold draft picks, and choosing to not meet Joe Johnson’s contract demands are the killers, along with the Kurt Thomas trade. They just couldn’t get themselves to spend just a little more money to win a championship. which is fine i guess, its their choice. After all, its not my money thats being spent lol.
Maybe they aren’t cheap, but they made stupid moves. Either way, i think its safe to say that Sarver is easily one of the worst 5-10 owners in the league.
mistakes were indeed made….although I’m not sure if you staked the Suns mistakes up against any other team’s mistakes how they would compare
Twitter me at: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Feb 18, 2012 2:11 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
lol good point!
they are probably similar to the mistakes that every team besides the Celtics, Lakers, Spurs and Mavs made….but you have to admit we had a lot more luck and opportunities in terms of acquiring and keeping players, and we screwed up.
those teams made plenty of mistakes too…Dampier’s contract? Luke Walton? Adam Morrison? Luis Scola?
off the top of my head
Twitter me at: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Feb 18, 2012 2:15 PM MST up reply actions
I just named those teams because they won championships.
They obviously made mistakes as well. However, none of those moves you mentioned are comparable to letting Joe Johnson go. The only two of those that kind of compares to some of the other bad moves we made was the Scola and Dampier examples. And those were crippling mistakes, the Spurs still haven’t won since then and the Mavs couldn’t win until they were able to rid themselves of Damp.
The FO screwed up having Nash, Johnson, Marion, and Stoudemire on the same team. And kept selling and giving away our draft picks. Teams that win championships don’t make those mistakes over and over again.
I think we all appluaded the JJ move
When we had Diaw playing well, and it looked like we were going to get the 4th pick in the Joakim Noah draft. In fact, when I first came here, there was a PDF of the moves that flowed from the JJ trade that was fascinating.
The FO screwed up having Nash, Johnson, Marion, and Stoudemire on the same team.
To a degree.
And kept selling and giving away our draft picks.
TO fund getting Kurt Thomas. No KT and draft picks, or KT and no picks?
Teams that win championships don’t make those mistakes over and over again.
Teams that win championships are very lucky, and cover their mistakes well, they don;t not make them.
Add Scola to San Antonio (they trade him for cap reasons) and SAS were even better, and possibly get one more title. SAS are the example of a team that rebuilt well within budget, but even they made mistakes, and have been forced to dump salary (George Hill, Scola). They just made good decisions as well.
and got lucky w/ getting both Tim and David Robinson as #1 picks
Twitter me at: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Feb 18, 2012 3:49 PM MST up reply actions
Nothing happens without that
Ditto OKC and even a team like Portland, who go lucky with Roy at 6, and then unlucky with Roy and his knees.
Luck – the final NBA frontier.
by MMotherwell on Feb 18, 2012 10:10 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Roy’s knees where a knows risk at draft time actually…where they didn’t get unlucky, was giving him that long-term extension AFTER the problems started showing up.
Twitter me at: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Feb 19, 2012 10:32 AM MST up reply actions
whoa
I think we all appluaded the JJ move
Are you kidding me? Applauded? Or were you relieved that it looked like we might have received something of value for one of the top young players in the game?
TO fund getting Kurt Thomas. No KT and draft picks, or KT and no picks?
Trading Q for Thomas was a really good trade. We would have have had to pay Q for quite a bit longer than Thomas. When we traded Thomas and two picks to the Sonics, is salary would only have been unreasonable for that same season. After that, his salary went down to 4 mil. So that trade shouldn’t of happened. If they would have just payed the man that year, we would have had a better shot at a title and been able to keep the two picks! I don’t know why you are saying we sold picks to fund Kurt Thomas specifically. We did it to lessen the blow of everyone’s contract.
The point is, these mistakes are the difference between winning and losing. Lowballing JJ is just unacceptable, as was the KT trade. Trading all of those picks so we could sign guys like Marcus Banks is just deplorable.
Lowballing JJ is just unacceptable
I could write a really long post about this, but I’ll just say I remember it differently. The lowballing happened in the summer of Nash and Q. Suns had already committed more than $100 mill to Nash and Q, plus had Amare coming up in a year for an extension. Suns offered JJ $45 million for 5 years (9 a year), and this was JJ coming off his second season in which he was actually one of the least productive starters in the league (2003-04). But the Suns saw potential, so wanted so sign him to $9 mil a year. JJ wanted 10 mil a year (50 total). Sarver called his bluff. Sarver ultimately lost because JJ never even negotiated the next summer. But even now I can see why you wouldn’t give the 2003-04 version of JJ a 10-mill-a-year contract.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
The problem is you can look at any move in isolation and say it makes sense..
The fact is that 1 million for 5 years (which was the difference in the JJ deal) is the definition of peanuts in the NBA and needs to be the poster child for cutting off your nose to spite your face…
The fact that Diaw and a draft pick looked like a god send for a period of time and that the KT move happened the same season (as well as getting Bell) covered for the anguish of that.
But my real frustration is that at the end this is about judgement…when you are handed gold you need to know what to do with it. We all knew that that 04-05 team (remember Barbosa was also on the bench) and after the trade for Kt was the basis for a long standing dynasty, without requiring really very much tweaking, and time has only proved that to be the case.
So all that needed to happen was care taking, making some small moves and just signing the guys you already had.. and the fact that one could say this about almost any of the rosters from 05-10 really adds insult to injury and proves the point….(so does the ignominious failure to sign Kerr who had worked miracles, at that very key time in the franchise history).
Now is Sarver the only guy to blame here??? No obviously others contributed as did bad luck… if you are Matrix demanding a top flight contract, and are ousted because of that, and end up with less than half of what you wanted the next year (thereby over valuing yourself by 10 million a year!!!!!), than you have to acknowledge that others were putting themselves first and not seeing the value of keeping this magical, game changing team together, or viewing their own value properly…so I offer that the blame needs to be apportioned to others, somewhat.
But Sarver played hardball too many times, with too many crucial pieces, and though any one of those moves may be explained in isolation, the fact is that a potential dynasty was dismantled (more than once!!!!) without ever getting the prize, and in the end, the owner has to take the lion’s share of the blame for that.
by HarvMel on Feb 19, 2012 9:09 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
in 2003-04
JJ averaged 17-4.5-4.5 when he was 22 years old. He was a 6’8 forward that could shoot, handle, and pass the ball. How could you not give a guy like that 5 mil more? How many guys were/are like him in the league? I don’t know how you can defend Sarver in that situation at all.
Seriously, with that size and skill set……i’ll never understand what Sarver did. Then to go and offer the 5yr 45 mil contract to Diaw a couple of years later, and then throw a bunch of money at Marcus Banks….ugh
by forget on Feb 19, 2012 10:56 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec to both Harv and Forget.
I could not write it better.
I am a draft guy, so the selling of the 2004, 9th pick Deng, in 2007 the 21st pick in Rondo, 2007, 27th pick Rudy Fernandez, and the dumping of 2 1st rounders in the KT deal .Understand Deng was a Colango deal, however these moves set the Suns back. I also understand at the time the Suns could not take all of these players on due to cap reasons. But gracious to treat the draft the way the Suns have in the last 8 years is embarrassing.
What I don't like about this debate- whether letting go of JJ was a good move or not
Is that Sarver even admitted to screwing up. That is something I got to give him credit on.
Don't trade Dudley!
fair enough..
and in one way I can cut Sarver a bit of slack as he is not the first and will not be the last owner that could not keep a good team together, when extensions came up and prior successes allowed players to make excessive demands.
Its just that looking at this thing in totality, given where the team was when he was just starting, and given how well many of those pieces are still playing, he didn’t need to do that much to keep this together.
And so while he may have apologized for JJ he made a similar mistake with Matrix and then Amare and other seemingly arrogant moves led to the loss of other key players (Jrich) and FO personel (dantoni and Kerr). So while you could forgive one or two, its the mass exodus and seeming pushing out the door of so many successful pieces even after the team was successfully rebuilt from these problems, that really is the clincher for me.
Yes, he's had many opportunites
Hopefully he can start turning things around this summer.
What we really need is a stable FO that can be successful enough to build a championship contender.
Don't trade Dudley!
A great deal of the blame for the draft picks lays with D'Antoni, doesn't it?
He’s the one who only wanted to go 7-8 deep and had no use for young players. D’Antoni didn’t want rookies, so he told the FO to get rid of them, right?
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
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no.
why would D’Antoni turn down players? What if one of the 7 or 8 guys gets hurt? What coach would turn down a chance for depth?
This is someone else's point.
Perhaps Beavis? Someone else has to argue this. I had no clue what was going on other than what ESPN told me back then.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
David Griffin, Suns Asst GM (and the right-hand man of GM D’Antoni for a year), was interviewed right before the 09-10 season. He said then that D was giving all of his minutes to 7 guys (remember the “7 starters” thing?) and would rather have NBA vets on the end of the bench than end-of-first-round rookies who rarely could be counted on.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
You're going to buy into that?
of course they aren’t going to come out and say,“Yeah, we needed to sell the picks because we wanted more cash”. lol that wouldn’t be smart.
You can’t convince me that they couldn’t just reserve the 11th or 12th spot for a couple of young guys….would D’Antoni mind that?
David Griffin is with the Cavs now, right?
He was supposed to be at the Creighton game yesterday. I was disappointed he wasn’t there.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
They could have been more creative and traded the picks for young talent who weren't rookies
Instead of signing not very good players like Banks, Jones, Piatowski, House…
Don't trade Dudley!
I love Steve Nash.
No one can fault him for his loyalty. But I suppose people will still try…
Just because Steve Nash has that "dirty hipster" look doesn't mean he's in need of a shower. Steve Nash bathes in the tears of his victims on a nightly basis.
Mark of a Beast, baby. Mark of a Beast.
Not gonna happen.
"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
"In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip."
Don't trade Beavis
well then the suns obviously dont care about winning
steve nash is not bigger than the suns. i want my team to do whatever it can to win, not just to make nash happy and sell some more tickets
by Berecki on Feb 18, 2012 1:59 PM MST up reply actions 3 recs
They do care about winning
They just care more about loyalty.
Also, understand the strategy they’re using is conbuilding.
Conbuilding- of or pertaining to sports; involving the effort of rebuilding and contending simultaneously by a team or franchise without being fully committed to either strategy:)
Don't trade Dudley!
by Beavis 25 on Feb 18, 2012 2:08 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
But we aren't doing either.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
No, we shouldn't trade him
He obviously doesn’t want to leave, and at this point, trading him would be like punching him in the face. He gave his entire career to Phoenix, and trading him at the end of his career would be low, classless, and overall would make the Suns a very hated team.
Not like there’s even a small chance we’ll trade him though. The only people who say we’ll trade him is the media, and they’ve been saying that for 3 years now.
Joe Saunders: "They Giants played a really good game, so hats off to us"
by Skii on Feb 18, 2012 1:59 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
"He obviously doesn’t want to leave"
just because he won’t demand to be traded, doesn’t mean he wants to stay here.
what more do you want him to do?
Twitter me at: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Feb 18, 2012 2:13 PM MST up reply actions
nothing.
i’m just saying he probably wants to go somewhere else. its just not possible at this point.
this is an impossible discussion to have with you (and the rest of the nation) on this. As Seth says, what more could he possibly do?
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
to prove he wants to stay?
is that what you mean? well, he could say," I will be in Phoenix next season" haha.
You gotta be kidding!
Not Possible? He leads the NBA in assists on a team that barely scores over 90 points a game, that about 20 pts lower than what they’ve averaged since he came back. Nash is shooting a higher FG% than any point guard his age ever in modern era. The guy has gone 50+% 40+% & 90+% more times than anyone ever in NBA history ( and doing it again). And you sound like no one would take him….give me a break. It’s not like he’s Arenas or V. Carter or soooo many others trying to prolong his career. Nash could easily be moved…he doesn’t want to go.
His $10+ million salary makes it hard
If we were to trade him the salaries would have to match up(unless the other team had a trade exception). We also would need to keep our financial flexibility going into this offseason. It would be very tough to find a suitable trade for him.
He needs to get a "PHX FOREVER" tattoo on his lower back..
Then MAYBE I’ll believe him
BAMF goes HAM.
by brian13 on Feb 18, 2012 2:25 PM MST up reply actions 9 recs
No
Put it on his bicep for all to see, so that way when he hits a shot, he can look directly at the audience and then flex his arm.
Now that’s sending a message!
That one moment would make ESPN worth watching.
Don't trade Dudley!
He needs it on his neck.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
Aw, come on.
You were never embarrassed to begin with. We’re not fooled!
Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo
by East Bay Ray on Feb 18, 2012 10:51 PM MST up reply actions
As a long time Nash fan, I would let him do whatever he wants to.
He’s given his all for the team, and has shown loyalty over the years. Whatever team he’s had to work with, and whatever the combinations, he’s always made them better.
Most likely, he’ll go into the HOF like Stockton did, as one of the greatest players to never win a ring. There are worse things in life.
Kudos to Grant Hill as well, for his sense of loyalty. It’s more and more a rarity these days, and should be appreciated more.
Lygafe.
Lionel Gaffen / Fotomix.
Lygafe
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by lygafe on Feb 18, 2012 2:35 PM MST reply actions 3 recs
I had the pleasure of being a Phillies fan during Scmidt's last, fairly miserable years.
The organization stuck with him, honored his wishes, and let him leave on his own terms. Players like that. Organizations develop personalities (not to say that corporations are people, mind you), and it reflects in the caliber of people they get. After Schmidt left, 3 1/2 years later, they were in the World Series. They still have a reputation as one of the best places to play in baseball, and I’m still a fan, 25 years later. I think the Suns, emphasizing loyalty and character, are a model organization, and I’m proud of them for that.
"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
"In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip."
Don't trade Beavis
Exactly
Do people who want Steve Nash off the team understand what kind of message it sends the rest of the players in the league? We honor loyalty and hard work to players in our organization and I think that sends a great message around the league. Obviously it is not the only factor in deciding which team you would like to play for, but for me it would sure be nice to know the organization I was playing for had my back if I was as hard working and loyal as Steve Nash has been (and also a really good player).
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Players just don't care about money and loyal franchises
they want to go the franchises in big markets with star players, the only way the Suns can compete with these teams are to go through the draft or through trade like the Spurs or Pistons in the mid 2000’s.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
It is true
They care about the big money, but I respect our franchise for what it is doing.
"If Gortat pulls off a real Dream Shake in-game this year I will shave my head.
Mark my words." Piotr Szczesniak 12/12/11 2:12 PM
Cardinals, Suns, D-backs for life!
Kevin Durant? Marc Gasol? Parker, Ginobli, Duncan?
Not everybody is looking for Bright Lights, Big City. We are a small market team, even though Phx is the 5th largest metro area in the country. We can’t outspend NY and LA and Miami, so we have our medical/training staff, our all-stars, and loyalty/character to offer. I’m glad we;re keeping all three.
"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
"In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip."
Don't trade Beavis
Have you noticed, all the players you listed were drafted by the team that they're with.
Amare re-signed here too in 2004 after his rookie contract was up, as Gasol and Durant have done, who knows what will happen in another 5 years.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
Yeah, and Ginoboli was picked 57th. Parker was picked 28th. Marc Gasol was drafted 48th.
Not much of a case for tanking there.
"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
"In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip."
Don't trade Beavis
What can I say, the Spurs and Grizzlies have good scouts
Dragic was a late second too.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
and we only have 1 all-star.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
5th largest metro, but only 12th largest TV market. (suburbs)
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
Sarver may not be cheap
He just doesn’t have any basketball nouse. Since he has owned the team he taken it apart player by player, draft pick by draft pick. The only thing left do was to get value for Nash and that boat has already sailed. A banker running a basketball team is like asking a gym teacher to fix the plumbing in your house
I don’t see any future with Sarver and Co. I love the Suns and will follow them religulously but the light at the end of the tunnel seems so far away.
Rubbish!
That is patently false. Sarver was here for the signings of Nash, drafting of Amar’e, trade for KT from NYK and a bunch of other quality moves.
By all means, point out the mistakes, but he has made many other good moves.
by MMotherwell on Feb 18, 2012 10:12 PM MST up reply actions
He was not here for the drafting of Amare, he bought the team in 2004 IIRC
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
correct, but Sarver did give Amare a max extension in 2005.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
What other quality moves?
To get Kurt Thomas we traded Q-Rich and a 1st rd pick (Nate Robinson). Then we traded away two 1st rd picks, one being Serge Ibaka to get a trade exception that we didn’t use. So we traded Q-Rich and three 1st rd pick for Thomas who only stayed for a few seasons
To get Dragic we traded two 2nd rd picks, one of them Dejuan Blair to the Spurs. Then we send Dragic and a 1st rd pick to the Rokets for Brooks. So to have Brooks play in China it costs us Dragic, two 2nd rd picks and a 1st rd pick.
Loul Deng to the Bulls for a future 1st rd pick which we later traded, surprised as I am? Brian Grant and Rajon Rondo to the Celtics, do i sound like a broken record yet? James Jones and Rudy Fernadez to the Blazers for cash, it’s like i’m stuck on repeat.
The money we spent on Raja Bell should have gone to Joe Johnson who we shipped to Altanta for Diaw and a future pick (Lopez). Diaw is no longer with us, Lopez is on the way out. And to dump Diaw, we had to throw Raja Bell in to get J-Rich and Dudley (which, as a clean up job, worked out well).
After signing Marcus Banks for five years we shipped him and Marion for Shaq. Then moved Shaq for Ben Wallace and Sasha to dump $20mill. Another cleanup job.
Before we give Sarver credite for getting Gortat, it was another fix-up from the failed Turkoglu deal. Carter and Pietrus were both bought out and that first round draft pick we got from Orlando? You guessed it: we traded it.
And don’t forget our franchise big man, Amar’e, left via free agency to NY for another trade exemption and a 2nd round pick. To show for it, we have Childress, Warrick and Frye. While I like those three I’d hardly call that a great deal.
So that leaves Sarver signing Nash, a 30 year old point guard to a 6 year deal. It worked out bigtime, lucky for us. And Grant Hill, who barely played for six years, was a low risk/high reward gamble which also luckily paid off. So well done Sarver & Co for those two.
.
Of the original 2004 side that he inherited, only Nash remains. Can you see now, how someone might perceive that this team has been systematically dismantled, player by player, pick by pick?
But if I’m forgetting many other of those “quality moves”, please remind me. Perhaps the signing of Telfair, Price, Brown; letting Lou walk, hiring of Porter, letting D’Antoni convince him to hire his own brother as defensive coach instead of Thibodeau…?
Mrs. Sunderstruck reminded me of something her late grandmother used to say: Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
.
by Sunderstruck on Feb 19, 2012 4:01 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
all true, but don’t you think it’s also fair to list the good moves that were made? It’s not like this team has sucked for the last 8 yrs. Something went right….right?
Twitter me at: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Feb 19, 2012 3:05 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Bell was a good signing.
Barbosa too.
Porter was a huge mistake. Kerr should have known better to listen to the players and just get a Coach who would be on the same page with them. That move cost us a playoff appearance. That team barring injury would have been more successful and had more wins if they were allowed to play to their strengths.
Don't trade Dudley!
Hill came to Phoenix to get a championship, and play a backup role
got owned.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
I did mention his good moves.
Sarver signed Nash, one of the great PG of the NBA and maybe the greatest Sun ever.
Grant Hill has been awesome and i did give Sarver and Co credit for cleaning up their mess.
The Jim Jackson trade was nice and the pick up of Tim Thomas too. Unfortunately they didn’t stay very long.
You are right that our team has been great for 8 or so years. Somethings did go right, a core of Amare, Marion, Johnson, Barbosa and Nash was a great start. I just wished we kept it together longer. This team seemed to change so much every year i’m amazed that we had the level of success that we did.
It’s not that a hate Sarver, i don’t know the guy from a bar of soap. Did he try to win a championship? Yes he did and he spent plenty of money to do it. He did it his way and he can because he is the owner but i believe that being a basketball team owner may not be his strong piont. Too many of the same mistakes made over and over again for my liking. I just don’t think he is basketball wise.
by Sunderstruck on Feb 20, 2012 3:41 AM MST up reply actions
This myth and rumor just won't go away...
No matter how many times both sides continue to express their mutual desire to stay together the media refuses to accept it!
Dwight Howard will undoubtedly be the big story during the all-star break, but I fully expect the “trade Nash” rumors to ignite during that time as well…despite these latest comments to the contrary.
The “Free Steve Nash” battle-cry is what really rubs me the wrong way though, as if to say we are keeping him here against his will when that actually couldn’t be further from the truth.
Is it so hard for some people to accept that maybe, just maybe Nash is actually happy playing here in Phoenix, and would like to finish his career here rather than chasing a ring somewhere else?
Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from Gilbert, AZ.
Follow me on Twitter: @thereal7footer
by 7footer on Feb 18, 2012 4:14 PM MST via mobile reply actions 4 recs
He has to get a tattoo like Brian said above
It’s the only way it’ll work. Even it it’s a temporary fake one, it’ll do.
Don't trade Dudley!
I totally agree!
I think that people are just saying what they would do in his position, it’s speaks to their character not his. There are no guarantees, no matter where you go. If you’re going to chase a championship….why not where you like to play and for who you like to play for….the FANS? Being there from the beginning is always better than jumping on the bandwagon after it starts on a winning roll. It’s not only sweeter but it also shows admirable character. Just one fans point of view. (this Fan)
by Stanley B on Feb 18, 2012 11:41 PM MST up reply actions 4 recs
And now you get a rec.
And it’s definitely not a flag.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
BTW, is what you’re seeing the word flag next to a number? That number is the number of recs, not the number of flags.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
I think there might be a software glitch...
I accidentally flagged somebody the other day, too.
I'm Michael Beasley's imaginary friend.
by suns68 on Feb 19, 2012 6:21 AM MST via mobile up reply actions
I could be wrong
but it didn’t appear that way to me. I haven’t intentionally flagged anyone or anything on here. I just figure it is an opinion that I don’t share and move on. I’ll have to try it again to see. BTW…thanks for the rec and input.
No comments in this thread have been flagged. It's all good.
Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo
by East Bay Ray on Feb 19, 2012 2:57 PM MST up reply actions
Amen brother.
Steve’s got two MVP’s and is a first-vote lock on a spot in the Hall.
I don’t think winning a championship on LeBron’s coat tails would add more than a footnote to his legend.
I think returning the Suns to respectability is a far more worthy challenge for a champion. We’ve got seven guys on one year deals. That should give us the flexibility to put some good people around him next season.
I'm Michael Beasley's imaginary friend.
by suns68 on Feb 18, 2012 11:42 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Someone once said that Sarver was cheap
and the national media went with it. Pounded it into our heads. It became more “true” every time a ESPN correspondent based out of Denver or New York used it to sound well-versed on the Suns.
Could he have spent more? Absolutely. Is why we didn’t win a ring w/ Nash/Amare? Nope.
by MarkSmith on Feb 18, 2012 5:16 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
We could have, if he traded Ben Wallace for Tyson Chandler
instead of buying out Wallace.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
now this is a very good point. Not that Chandler could actually have been had for Wallace (he was a more-expensive buyout, I believe, than Dampier. But I could be wrong). The Suns FO’s biggest problem is lack of creativity.
But we have to remember though that Chandler was damaged goods. Hadnt played well for years.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
I for one thought he was done.
And would have hated the move at the time.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
Players are never done with PHX's training staff.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
by Suns R Us on Feb 19, 2012 12:16 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Excellent point.
Their style of play might not fit, but health wise they do seem to improve. REC!!
"Is why we didn’t win a ring w/ Nash/Amare? Nope."
Think we might’ve won a title with JJ on the team? Or if we kept Kurt Thomas? Or if we would’ve kept a couple of our draft picks? No one knows, but we would’ve had a better shot.
Besides the title thing, his cheapness has gotten us into this situation we are in now. We got rid of all of our picks, now we don’t have players.
I'm a Suns fan before I'm a Nash fan, and I realize many of you became Suns fans because of Nash, which is part of the reason you want Nash to stay.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
I don't really care if he stays or goes as long as we win.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
f-ing awesome article! Best I’ve read in a while.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
I agree. This is great.
Seth does his best work when his hide is chapped.
Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo
by East Bay Ray on Feb 18, 2012 10:52 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
thanks guys...
sometimes when the devil gets in your craw….
Twitter me at: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Feb 19, 2012 10:43 AM MST up reply actions
You know what would be freaking awesome?
If people would stop doubting what Steve has been saying for what seems like ages now, and just believe the man.
I’m so sick and tired of all the “he deserves better” stories.
After all he’s done for this team, don’t you think that he “deserves” to get what he wants?
NBA Blog: www.nbagirl.tumblr.com
Non-NBA Blog: www.reallycoolshenans.tumblr.com
Follow me on Twitter: @PhxSunsGirl84
"Great things come to those who work."
by Dragic_is_Magic on Feb 18, 2012 8:12 PM MST via Android app reply actions 1 recs
Also, great article.
I apologize – I’m in a bad mood and Steve Nash trade rumors never help.
NBA Blog: www.nbagirl.tumblr.com
Non-NBA Blog: www.reallycoolshenans.tumblr.com
Follow me on Twitter: @PhxSunsGirl84
"Great things come to those who work."
by Dragic_is_Magic on Feb 18, 2012 8:13 PM MST via Android app up reply actions
What gets me is how people think they know what's best for Nash more than he does.
He’s done OK in his life with the decisions he’s made, huh?
Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo
by East Bay Ray on Feb 18, 2012 10:53 PM MST up reply actions
Well, our fanbase always comes up with such brilliant ideas...
Surely we’re better suited to plan Steve Nash’s life for him than himself. It’s not like he’s an accomplished 38-year old man, with immense basketball talent and intelligence.
Right?
NBA Blog: www.nbagirl.tumblr.com
Non-NBA Blog: www.reallycoolshenans.tumblr.com
Follow me on Twitter: @PhxSunsGirl84
"Great things come to those who work."
by Dragic_is_Magic on Feb 18, 2012 11:03 PM MST up reply actions 7 recs
blah...blah
Same old story..Saver is not trading Nash…because, he left that up to Nash to decide being the face of the Franchise…Sarver was probably hoping he would request a trade to save cash….I don’t see Sarver actually persuing anyone to help out Nash….
I really wish Nash would have tried to find a new team….One that actually cares about winning NBA titles and not afraid to spend money to do it…He deserves a title and Sarvers PHX SUNS have shown with their Roster they are not willing to spend the money to get the players Nash needs to win.
The Suns and Suns fans deserve a title.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
yeah...
So we need a team President that gives a dmn….Sarver has shown he is perfectly fine with losing after he dismantled the team that got to the Western Conf. finals… And has done nothing but, horrid contract deals with bench players to rebuild his “Vision” of the Suns….
Did you actually read the article?
Because it touched on this fallacy as well
they are not willing to spend the money to get the players Nash needs to win.
BAMF goes HAM.
The article didn't prove that to be a fallacy lol
He wasn’t willing to take the hit financially, thats not debatable. He sold the draft picks, lowballed JJ, and could take one more season of KT’s unreasonable contract. Those decisions are the reason why people say he put fiscal obligations above winning a title.
I would argue that it was more “wasn’t able” than “wasn’t willing”…and it’s not like Sarver and the Suns were 24th in spending like the big market-rich owner Bulls.
I suppose we don’t really know what Sarver was able to spend versus willing to spend but I find it difficult to sit here and say that someone else should have spent an extra $40m per year to get to the same level the Mavs were at. That’s a lot of doughnuts.
Twitter me at: @sethpo
by Seth Pollack on Feb 19, 2012 10:42 AM MST up reply actions
"I find it difficult to sit here and say that someone else should have spent an extra $40m per year to get to the same level the Mavs were at"
agreed. like I said in an above post, it’s not my money.
but, if you buy an NBA franchise and are not able to spend the money necessary to win, then be prepared to get hammered by the fans and media.
Honestly ...
if you become an owner of an NBA team, I think you should be prepared to be hammered by fans and media for any & no reason at all. I believe that the owner is actually just the “caretaker” and it is truly the Fans team, usually owners come and go but Fandom transcends generations.
Lol. If fans ran teams, they’d be worse off than ever.
Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun
by Alex Laugan on Feb 19, 2012 3:40 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
I didn't say run,
just posses. Your right they’d be worse than Bob Irsay’s Colts! Haha
I don't think it's fair to say the Bulls in comparison with the Suns salary
the Bulls weren’t contending in those 5 years, they only won over 50 games 1 year, and Derrick Rose was still on a rookie contract.
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
Why all this love for Kurt Thomas?
As I recall, the only reason we got him in the first place was as a fill-in because Amare was hurt.
He averaged like 6 points and 6 boards for us and committed more personal fouls than anyone I’ve ever seen. Then he got hurt too and we wound up going small-ball all the way through the playoffs anyway.
It cost us draft picks to offload him, but it was costing us more to keep him and if we didn’t move him, we’d have had to jettison another, better player (or two).
The idea was to keep our core together and add Grant Hill to the mix. We were a better team because of that.
I can blame Sarv/Kerr for that idiotic Shaq experiment and Sarv for not matching NYK’s offer on Amare, but Kurt Thomas? Get serious.
I'm Michael Beasley's imaginary friend.
by suns68 on Feb 18, 2012 11:17 PM MST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
he was a valuable post defender.
we didn’t have any other valuable post defenders….
by forget on Feb 19, 2012 12:32 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
He was our only center
The 18 minutes he gave us were very productive and valuable. The guy outplayed Boris Diaw in the 07 playoffs.
Don't trade Dudley!
The Suns also
played a much better team defense during that stretch. Knowing we were thin there veryone seemed to step it up a notch or two.
Nope, we brought him in to guard Duncan
Kurt wasn’t the best fit in our system, so he didn’t get many minutes, but from what I remember, he got the job done. He made Duncan work, that’s the best anyone could do back then.
Don't trade Dudley!
Agreed!
I think Amare was gone to NY anyways. It was about more than just the playing contract. (Just my opinion)
Great article Seth!
I think that you got to the heart of the matter in an efficient and passionate manner!! Nash has Heart and Character….which is refreshing in today’s NBA!
Said it once ...I'll say it again....
With Robert Sarver as Team President you will never see a Suns Championship…..While it’s true we never won one as a Franchise…We have been very close.
With Sarver as Team Pres….the only chance we have is the old saying…..
“Even a blind squrriel will find a nut some times” As his reign of terror continues across the valley of the Sun….I realize Sarver knows nothing about basketball other then utter incompetenace.
by chuckyj1 on Feb 19, 2012 1:04 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
And yet....
"Even a blind squrriel will find a nut some times". The nut being a championship, who knows. I do know that I really like what I see in Morris, even if it isn’t consistent yet…..ton of potential….kind of an Amare/Frye hybrid. With an astute Draft and FA combo who knows….I can Hope and Believe though.
Rec'd for extreme hyperbole
As his reign of terror continues across the valley of the Sun….
LOL.
Blogging Suns basketball for Bright Side of the Sun from California wine country.
Twitter: @EastBayRaymundo
by East Bay Ray on Feb 19, 2012 3:10 PM MST up reply actions
So, if there's a formula, with equations, and numbers, and stuff, to have an NBA team that can win a title...
Somebody tell me how we put a team together – on paper – that will be guaranteed to beat the Heat. Who you gonna get? Draft picks? Stars? What’s the correct formula? Because to me, I don’t think anybody is going to do it this year, or next, or next. I think Chicago is going to understand how Utah felt, or Phoenix, or all of the other teams who lost to the Jordan Bulls.
There’s only one way they don’t win – luck. (extending luck to injuries for the purpose of this exercise).
"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
"In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip."
Don't trade Beavis
That's the thing, that kind of formula doesn't exist.
The correct formula is to spend money and make good decisions. That’s it.
We do that and if something unlucky happens, it might not be enough to keep us from a title.
A good example is in 07. It would have helped if Coach D played a deeper bench because then he wouldn’t have had to rely on 5-6 guys to play 40 minutes in game 5 of that Spurs series. He was warned. People questioned his depth and he chose to ignore it thinking he could get away with playing only 7-8 guys.
Did he ever stop to think, “what happens when one of my 7 starters gets hurt? How could we possibly beat the Spurs with a 6 man rotation? Maybe I should bring some guys in that can play and extend the rotation during the regular season even if that means cutting some minutes from my starters?” Maybe he did stop to think, but either way, he chose to be stubborn and therefore did not do everything he could to prepare for the worst. Instead, he was depending upon luck to bail him out.
That didn’t happen. JJ got hurt, Bell got hurt and there was the suspensions. He didn’t build a team that would be prepared for something like that. Even just one more quality player in the rotation would have helped. Making good decisions can prepare us for bad things that may come.
Because neither FO is perfect and will all make mistakes, it is true that the ones with more money do succeed more often because they can afford to mess up. Lesser money means little room for error.
In the end, it still comes down to luck. The contender with the most luck usually wins. It’s good though, if the loser can at least say, “Well, it didn’t work out for us, but we were prepared as well as we could be.”
Don't trade Dudley!
by Beavis 25 on Feb 19, 2012 4:15 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
And that, good sir, would be my point.
A rec for you!
And Damn Sarver for not buying us some luck!
"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
"In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip."
Don't trade Beavis
Thanks haremoor
It’s about time you come in handy. You know, being my agent and all.
Don't trade Dudley!
Glad you didn't get trade, Beavis.
Must have been my sig.
"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
"In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip."
Don't trade Beavis
good point on coach D's teams
For all the blathering about how the system could never win a chip, it’s true fatal flaw was simply not having enough bullets for an extended gunfight.
by Fritzy on Feb 19, 2012 4:36 PM MST up reply actions 3 recs
Dude
It took me 3 paragraphs to say what you just said in one sentence.
Wil was right, I might think myself into a coma one of these days, lol.
Don't trade Dudley!
And a Rec for both of you!
Beavis for expansive explanation and Fritzy for conciseness.
We're two of a kind Beav.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
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