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Suns Rebounding, Winning And Some Bench Dudes

There's a lot of ways you can look at numbers and sports. Most of them are bogus and misleading. Why change what works?

Here's some numbers about your Phoenix Suns, their rebounding ups and downs, the wins and losses that happen when the rebounding is better or worse. And to make things even more useless, a look at three bench guys and how they fit into the rebounding picture.

Let's begin with this futile act of senseless analysis.

1. How much does rebounding matter?

The answer is, some. Does it matter more than three-point shooting? Does it matter less than turnovers? Does it matter as much as orange vs. purple unis? Who knows.

But it does seem to matter...some.

Here's what we know. Of the 11 Suns wins, 7 game in games with a positive rebounding differential. 2 more came in games when the Suns were only -2 on the glass (or better). Only one win came in a game where the Suns got crushed on the boards -- the Knicks game where the Suns shot over 54% from three and the Knicks couldn't hit the ocean with the broad side of a barn.

Look, a chart!

Star-divide

Rebounding_chart_medium

I'm no math genius (or any kind of genius) but that seems kind of important to me. Rebounding.

2. Who rebounds well on the Suns?

This one is easy to answer, just fire up the old Basketball-reference.com and check this out:

Rebounding_rate_chart_medium

In case you can't read that, the order of rebounding rate is Gortat, Lopez, Frye, Morris, Childress, Warrick and then the rest.

Steve Nash, btw, has the worst rebounding rate on the team proving how worthless he is. Clearly, because I just told you how important rebounding is. Duh.

3. What happens when Lopez, Warrick or Childress play more or less minutes?

And now things get really interesting. Let's put aside a lot of garbage about this season like "roster talent" and "#FreeNash" and "energy" and just look at the pieces Gentry has to work with.

It's like a puzzle, right? Each guy does some things better than other things and Alvin's job is to fit them together.

Gentry isn't going to turn Robin Lopez into a three-point scoring machine. He's not going to be able to make Hakim Warrick defend the pick and roll (or anything) better. These guys pretty much are who they are.

What the coach can do it put the right combinations of dudes on the floor at the same time and try and get the fellers to play to their potential.

So...let's help him out w/ a little number crunching. Here's a little chart showing the differences between Lopez, Chill and Warrick.

Who_plays_medium

As you can see, the more Warrick plays, the worse the Suns rebound. When Lopez and Chill play the Suns rebound better. And we've already established that rebounding is the most important factor in Suns wins something that happens.

Clearly, Gentry should play Warrick less and play Chill and Lopez more...kind of like he did in the last three games which, in case your not paying attention, were wins (and the Suns were +15 on the glass).

Happy now?

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Comment 70 comments  |  6 recs  | 

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wow. rec'd!

I don't know what to put in my sig.

by shawndy on Feb 8, 2012 3:56 PM MST reply actions  

Steve Nash has the worst rebounding rate on the team?

Trade him!

Just because Steve Nash has that "dirty hipster" look doesn't mean he's in need of a shower. Steve Nash bathes in the tears of his victims on a nightly basis.

Mark of a Beast, baby. Mark of a Beast.

by NashMV3 on Feb 8, 2012 4:01 PM MST reply actions  

It's so obvious!

I mean our PG should be ripping down 15 boards a night easy! WTF Nash? Not even trying!!

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Feb 8, 2012 6:08 PM MST up reply actions  

Very good analysis. I do think rebounding is very important, and I do think we rebound more with Chilly and Lopez than with Warrick. Very good points. Thank you for this.

by BringBackBarkley17 on Feb 8, 2012 4:10 PM MST reply actions  

What about Grant?

His rebound rate an abysmal 6.8%, which is barely more than half of Childress robust 12.5%, and even less than Warrick’s dwarvish 9.4%.

Clearly Childress should start at SF, and Warrick should be the backup.

Right….

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Feb 8, 2012 5:02 PM MST reply actions  

see, this is the problem w/ numbers

Twitter me at: @sethpo

by Seth Pollack on Feb 8, 2012 5:04 PM MST up reply actions  

wrong

but i do think chilly should get more minutes. grant hill isnt rebounding because hes busy locking down the other team best player. warrick plays no D. ok at scoring and doesnt rebound at either the 3 or 4 which he is undersized for.
i thin the suns should start hill but go to chilly early on. he should get in at the last few minutes of the first and stay in until hes tired and let hill finish the half. with hill fresh he can take over defensive dutines. i would only have hill in when the other teams star is in for the second half. anytime the star player isnt out there chilly should be out there.
out of 48 mins chilly should be able to get 20 mins and maybe more at the 2 if were on a b2b2b and redd or hill need rest and duds and chilly have to play more minutes

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Feb 8, 2012 5:35 PM MST up reply actions  

I replyed to wrong person btw

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Feb 8, 2012 6:18 PM MST up reply actions  

You obviously didn't look at the column that tells us who's leading in the BAMF category.

"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
"In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip."

by haremoor on Feb 8, 2012 5:28 PM MST up reply actions   2 recs

um... mine's workin fine

you might need a calibration on yours… unless you were being sarcastic about hare’s sarcasm, at which point I’m flying blind. I could only afford the sarcasmometer 2000 not the 3000. the 2000 can’t read double sarcasms.

by 2NASHTY on Feb 8, 2012 9:36 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

I'd like to see the 3 bench guys compared

against the other players that would otherwise play. SO you have to compare:

Childress with Brown, Dudley and Redd (compares positively),

Warrick with Frye and Morris (as good as a poke in the eye with a stick)

and Lopez with Frye and Morris (a small plus)

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Feb 8, 2012 5:08 PM MST reply actions  

Your stats also make an argument for

a Lopez / Gortat frontcourt. Presumably Morris/Frye would see reduced minutes.

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Feb 8, 2012 5:10 PM MST up reply actions  

While Seth is clearly pimping for his man...

This year I think he is right.

I see a big difference with Lopez on the floor this year, as he is either doing something effective, or at least showing the potential to do so. And that is true on both sides of the floor..his inner Verajoa/Noah is starting to come out and while it may still be a ways away, he looks like a much more effective piece this year.

On another thread I noted how the Raptors game seemed to fall apart around the time of his ejection, and that the next couple of games during his banishment/suspension were 2 games where the team really struggled and he seemed clearly to be missed.

So I am all for more Lopez/Chill and for less Warrick. Warrick is increasingly looking like a liability, or specialty guy, who needs to be used very sparingly.

by HarvMel on Feb 8, 2012 7:00 PM MST up reply actions  

I get that

but there’s really no case for playing him over Gortat, so I figure you have to move Gortat to the 4 for a while to make that work.

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Feb 8, 2012 7:20 PM MST up reply actions  

not saying that…Robin should play when Gortat sits which would be around 15 mpg

Twitter me at: @sethpo

by Seth Pollack on Feb 8, 2012 8:27 PM MST up reply actions  

I would like to see Chilly on the court with Nash more often.

maybe pull BAMF out eariler, to save him for crunch time. Also, ‘these guys are pretty much who they are’, not sure if I agree with that. Isn’t that why FO brought in Elston? Although one could argue the results, but they did bring him in to improve. So, some players have room to grow, unless I read it wrong. Especially the big men down low. Lopez is very young, so is Morris.

by rdgroce on Feb 8, 2012 5:11 PM MST reply actions  

Turner is brought in to help the team improve defensively and not so much individual players…sure, guys can get marginally better but that’s not happening from game to game. It usually happens in the offseason and/or slowly over time.

In other words, it doesn’t factor into game by game rotation decisions.

Twitter me at: @sethpo

by Seth Pollack on Feb 8, 2012 5:28 PM MST up reply actions  

if you’re going to pick the worst year to install a new defensive coordinator into the Suns team, this would be it. No offseason, hardly no training camp, guys in terrible shape.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Feb 8, 2012 7:02 PM MST up reply actions  

There are so many things that Grant does that can't be put into numbers-

Nash and Hill are comfortable with each other on the court. Grant knows what Steve is doing on just about every play, and he does something to complement it. We don’t need numbers from Grant – we need Grant.

"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
"In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip."

by haremoor on Feb 8, 2012 5:33 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Yep

They are great playing with each other especially on those run outs on the break

Carter having a glazed-eyes contest with Boris Diaw. Carter's winning, but Diaw might respond by eating his eyes.

by NashtySUNS on Feb 8, 2012 6:53 PM MST up reply actions  

Hill's stats are an indiction of stats in general

He’s lowest in win shares per 48 but has the best +/-

Hmmmmm….

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Feb 8, 2012 7:21 PM MST up reply actions  

Hill is a statistical anomaly

He passes the eye test but the stats don’t go his way: http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1157831

Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."

by rsavaj on Feb 8, 2012 8:05 PM MST up reply actions  

i agree chillys talents would work well with a better passer

second unti plays best when they set each other up. sometimes they stagnate and can cause leads to be giving up. chilly and morris are wasted because morris only gets the ball at the 3 and so does chilly who will pass up the shot. get the balls to these guys in stride, especially chilly whose good at getting open and into the lane

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Feb 8, 2012 5:38 PM MST up reply actions  

chilly

his skills are like Marion’s, when he applies himself. Your right about Chilly and Morris hanging on the 3, not really involved. Not sure if Gentry isn’t getting them more involved, or it’s their lack of intrest?

by rdgroce on Feb 8, 2012 5:50 PM MST up reply actions  

I was thinking the same thing last night.

He’s very much like Marion.

"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
"In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip."

by haremoor on Feb 8, 2012 6:26 PM MST up reply actions  

I’m 99.9% sure the offense is designed for them to stand in the corner (Redd/Hill/Chill) and the wing (Frye/Morris) behind the 3-pt line for spacing for Nash.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Feb 8, 2012 7:04 PM MST up reply actions  

as usual

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Feb 8, 2012 7:22 PM MST up reply actions  

Seriously though

Rebounding is good. We need to rebound, but none of that matters if Frye isn’t hitting his shots. He’s the difference. We live or die by Channing’s jumpshots.

Well really, we just need to take care of the baskeball, score the basketball, rebound the basketball and keep the other team from scoring the basketball. If we can do all that better, we’ll win more games.

Don't trade Dudley!

by Beavis 25 on Feb 8, 2012 6:00 PM MST reply actions  

Heck Ya!!

but as for Frye I am totally on side with you, and have been actively posting the same thought. One good development is just having the threat that Frye could shoot well actually opens up the floor somewhat, so we are already a step ahead of where we were a week ago.

by HarvMel on Feb 8, 2012 7:25 PM MST up reply actions  

You just blew my F'ing mind!!

Good stuff sir!

Member of the "Let’s Make FanShots Relevant!" Club

by AcucracK on Feb 8, 2012 6:05 PM MST reply actions  

Yes good stuff....Especially the Chart!!

I love charts! (as long as its about the Suns and not work related!)….

I really like Chilly since he was a Hawk and was really hoping he can fit in with the Suns…the past 3 games have been great for him but you have to wonder about his permanent place in the rotation. With Alvin Gentry, you never know…. for a while Ronnie Price was part of the rotation as a defensive sparkplug and even starting a couple of games… but now his out of the rotation. For a while last week? Shannon Brown was putting up OK numbers now he’s out again.

by toto_l2003 on Feb 8, 2012 7:25 PM MST up reply actions  

I think it's just a matter of if we keep winning

Of we show success then chilly will get more Playing time. I just wish this team would make the nom mash or gortat trade that would put us over into playoff run status. Mayne re-signing brooks when he gets back?

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Feb 8, 2012 8:14 PM MST via Android app up reply actions  

Gentry

is is me or does Gentry just allow the players to play? He pieces them together, but doesn’t really coach their skills, or has plays for them to run, just allows them to do their thing. So, as the players go, so goes Gentry. Where as alot of coaches get the most out of less, and teaches more. I see he has some plays for them to run in certain situations, but that is not the norm.

by rdgroce on Feb 8, 2012 8:19 PM MST up reply actions  

Solution: Give all Suns players a jet pack.

Sure it’ll slow them down since using it for moving would be traveling, but man we would average 200 rebounds a game.

Twitter: @FredLegittt

by modernage13 on Feb 8, 2012 8:23 PM MST reply actions  

do you have a chart for that?

Twitter me at: @sethpo

by Seth Pollack on Feb 8, 2012 8:29 PM MST up reply actions  

Sorry

I’m only a fan, not a head coach:(

Twitter: @FredLegittt

by modernage13 on Feb 8, 2012 9:15 PM MST up reply actions  

Babby quote:

did anyone hear what Babby said over at Arizona Sports? ‘I don’t want to create some expectation that we’re going to spend all of our money in 2012’. Is he preparing us for under spending, again?Anyone have some insight to his coments?

by rdgroce on Feb 8, 2012 8:33 PM MST reply actions  

That means they have no idea who they are going after

So when they dont get anyone they can be like"well hey who said we were gonna spend a bunch anyway"
Or perhaps they want to be under the radar than snatch up rfa’s outa nowhere.
I hope its the second

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Feb 8, 2012 9:05 PM MST via Android app up reply actions  

its possible they don’t want to repeat the summer of 2010, or the summer the Pistons had a few years ago – spending money because they wanted to, regardless of the players.

Blogging Suns Basketball at Bright Side of the Sun

by Alex Laugan on Feb 9, 2012 12:43 PM MST up reply actions  

I hope that too

Or something big

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Feb 8, 2012 10:44 PM MST via Android app up reply actions  

Perhaps he's preaching that this rebuild is a process.

We’re not going to spend everything next year and fix it in one offseason.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Feb 8, 2012 10:27 PM MST up reply actions  

Clearing all that cap

With the intentions do do nothing with it…..sounds disheartening

"Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose"

by phxpurple on Feb 8, 2012 10:44 PM MST via Android app up reply actions  

Not doing nothing, just not spending it all this summer.

Perhaps save some for the next offseason or to pull a midseason trade.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Feb 8, 2012 10:48 PM MST up reply actions  

it’s better than over spending on the wrong guys…it’s an acknowledgment of the reality that there won’t be enough top guys available to give the money to

Twitter me at: @sethpo

by Seth Pollack on Feb 9, 2012 8:13 AM MST up reply actions  

You mean we're not getting

D12 and D-Will?

It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.

by Jim Coughenour on Feb 9, 2012 10:21 AM MST up reply actions  

Leave my dreams alone!

You big meanie!

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Feb 9, 2012 10:22 AM MST up reply actions  

We'll probably get D-3.5 and D-Won't.

"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
"In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip."

by haremoor on Feb 9, 2012 10:22 AM MST up reply actions  

lol, good one. I might settle for those right about now!

by BringBackBarkley17 on Feb 9, 2012 12:36 PM MST up reply actions  

Rebounding

If we have the ball, then the other side doesn’t.

by Sunderstruck on Feb 9, 2012 12:14 AM MST reply actions  

I found a solution

Play Lopez as the C and let Gortat shoot the 3’s.

Alea iacta est!

by PolishHammer on Feb 9, 2012 1:32 AM MST reply actions  

Tat has to pull down 20 boards in a game before that happens.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com

I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.

by Omaha Sun on Feb 9, 2012 8:49 AM MST up reply actions  

I think that'll happen this year

I wonder if Gentry will pull him when he gets to 19, though?

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Feb 9, 2012 10:23 AM MST up reply actions  

Probably a good idea.

"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
"In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip."

by haremoor on Feb 9, 2012 10:24 AM MST up reply actions  

Here's what I have for Childress

games with 10+ minutes = 10 (record 5-5)
games with 10>minutes>0 = 3 (record 2-1)
games where Chilly loves the bench = 12 (record 4-8)

Obviously Childress is best when he plays 10>minutes>0.

It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.

by Jim Coughenour on Feb 9, 2012 10:30 AM MST reply actions  

Why stop there?

Go on and calculate the optimal number of minutes for Childress. I think it’s right about 4.7.

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Feb 9, 2012 10:35 AM MST up reply actions  

A couple more things to consider

when delving through this perspicacious analysis.

Gentry has the proclivity to go with the hot hand. Games where bench players are getting more minutes could mean they are playing well and earned them. Conversely, we’ve all witnessed struggling players have short leashes under Gentry’s autocratic rule.

Rolo’s performance in the wins versus the losses

11 wins 12.2 mpg 3.5 rpg
14 losses 12.5 mpg 2.9 rpg

Appears amazingly similar…. So maybe he’s not really the lynchpin for the rebounding difference after all…

It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.

by Jim Coughenour on Feb 9, 2012 11:16 AM MST reply actions  

The lynchpin is Warrick

whenever he’s NOT out there playing the PF position, we do well rebounding

Voted most likely to say "I told you so"

by jc79 on Feb 9, 2012 12:31 PM MST up reply actions  

Thank you

for proving my point…

There’s a lot of ways you can look at numbers and sports. Most of them are bogus and misleading.

Twitter me at: @sethpo

by Seth Pollack on Feb 9, 2012 2:56 PM MST up reply actions  

Numbers don't lie,

but people do.

I am torn between my love of their fluidity and focus and distaste for how easily they can be manipulated to do the bidding of nearly anyone’s agenda.

Staistics can illuminate and obfuscate a situation simultaneously.

And… you’re welcome. The story had more of a nudge, nudge, wink, wink tone than a Eureka! one… Not that you need my help proving points.

It was only called the mildly irritated house on McDowell until I showed up.

by Jim Coughenour on Feb 9, 2012 3:26 PM MST up reply actions  

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