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Nash Running Less of the Show

I have been talking all season about how this year's Suns have been working to make the offense less dependent on Nash.

We saw it early in the year with more plays going through Hill and Diaw and now with Shaq we are seeing the offense flow through him more too.

I decided to re-watch the 1st and 4th Qtrs of the Houston game and chart the offensive possessions and see how this really looked:

1st Qtr: Nash played the first 9 min and there were 14 half court set possessions. Steve ran the offense on only 6 of those. 4 times the ball went through Shaq in the post almost always feed by Hill. Twice Diaw was the man in the post after Shaq went out. And once LB created a look for himself and on another Hill ran the show feeding Amare.

4th Qtr: Nash played the final 8:07 and when he came back in the game was still close enough to matter. This time the story was different. There were again 14 possessions but Nash lead the way on 12 of those with one each going to Diaw and Shaq. Of those 12, 5 were classic top of the key pick and rolls with Amare. Nash also had two bad turnovers during this stretch. Once he dribbled off his foot and the other was a bad pass to Shaq in traffic.

And what about when Nash was out? In those 7 minutes at the end of the 1st qtr and beginning of the 4th we saw a total of 11 half court possessions. 5 times the ball went through Shaq in the post. 2 times LB ran a nice two man game w/ Diaw. And then 2 times each for Diaw and Gordan.

So, what's all this mean?

  • Nash isn't working as hard early in the game
  • The Suns are figuring out how to use Shaq and feed him the ball in good position using the taller wing players like Hill, Diaw and Giricek to make the entry pass
  • With Nash off the floor they have many more options then in past years
  • At the end when the game needed to be closed, Nash and Amare did their thing like always
Btw - Amare had 18 of his 38 points in the 2nd qtr. I am going to have to go back and watch him now too. I seem to recall his dominance on full display as he created for himself. In the 1st and 4th qtr's he "only" had 14 points on 4 for 7 shooting and 6-6 from the line.

Update [2008-3-24 10:44:34 by srp]:

I did re-watch the 2nd qtr. Amare got a lot of touches. On five occassions he either came off a screen and created or simply got the ball in isolation. He finished 3 of those and was fouled on the other two and hit all 4 FT's of course. So 10 of his 18 points in the quarter were unassisted. I did see LB and Amare run a pick and roll early in the quarter which was nice since we usually don't see LB do that. They seemed to be experimenting once they had the big lead.

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Nice analysis, srp!

You went all Charley Rosen for us.  Your hours are sincerely appreciated.  I would have not known the current offensive mix if not for this.

It the big wing feeds to Shaq that must be generating the non-Nash assists.  Fewer high P'N'R mean fewer Nash assists.  Just wish the TOs would also drop.

The SUNS - NOW THE HOTTEST TEAM IN THE NBA!

by ZonaFlash on Mar 24, 2008 2:17 AM MDT reply actions  

Appreciated, SRP
give him a raise!
'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Mar 24, 2008 10:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

The danger of generalizing...
I'm not so sure of the wisdom of extrapolating a trend from a game or two, but it is a welcome development.

I think I've mentioned before that I thought Nash was at his best when paired with another passer, the Nash/Van Exel backcourt in Dallas being the prime example.  That's what's happening here with Grant and Shaq.  What was good about the Houston game was seeing Grant getting 10 assists, and I bet the happiest guy to see that was Steve.  

What this all means is that when it's working, the Suns now have a fully functioning 3 phase offense, where in addition to the post and backcourt game, Grant now provides them with the option to initiate the offense from the 3. This is something we had in the Amare-less season, but only happened sporadically last year with Boris.

The Suns should be able to respond efficiently to whatever the opposing team gives them in terms of offensive opportunities, which I think has been the case in the last few games, while still continuing to impose their will.  If we can eliminate the turnovers, well, then the sky's the limit.

by Pliny the Elder on Mar 24, 2008 2:27 AM MDT reply actions  

I agree about generalizing
and I wish I had the time to chart all the games :)

This was interesting b/c it was a trend I had been seeing all year and just had the time this weekend to explore in more detail.

But you're absolutely right. I had also thought that Houston was a good match up for us to go inside early.

I remember after the trade I was feeling like I was watching a team that I didn't recognize. Now, as things come together you can also start to see paterns of play develop and personally it feel more comfortable and familiar even though it is now different w/ Shaq.

Btw - Hill had 5 of his 10 assists in the first quarter. I know only one - on the first play actually - went to Amare. The rest were simply entry passes to Shaq that he finished. That's a case were the stat doesn't really do justice to the play. On those it was Shaq working to get inside position and also using Amare screens to cut across the lane to get deep for that pass from Hill.

Phx - where artistic vision happens

by Seth Pollack on Mar 24, 2008 8:41 AM MDT up reply actions  

Who needs Nash to run the show...
...when he's shooting nearly 68% from three?

According to Paul Coro's latest, he's made 21 of 31 during the win streak. I didn't believe it, so I looked it up.

vs. SA: 2-2
vs. Memphis: 0-2
vs. GSW: 4-6
vs. SAC: 3-4
vs. Portland: 4-8
vs. Seattle: 5-6
vs. Rockets: 3-3

Yep, that would be 21-31. That's sick!

by TexSUN on Mar 24, 2008 5:32 AM MDT reply actions  

i think i remember in an interview
someone asking Raja Bell a yr or two ago who was the best shooter on the team. Without hesitation, he said Nash. I've always thought he was, but was too unselfish and so we rarely saw it in action. I remember the playoffs against dallas 2 yrs ago where Nash scored like 40-50 or something. He was awesome, but the rest of the team stunk
Nothing in this Verse can stop us!

by jasonsuns1 on Mar 24, 2008 10:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

of course.
Steve Nash might be the best combination of passer and shooter to ever play the game, right up there with Larry Bird. seriously.

by Pliny the Elder on Mar 24, 2008 11:07 AM MDT up reply actions  

What's most cool about those numbers above...
...is that as good as 21-31 is, for the most part he's actually been his most accurate in the biggest games: 2-2 against SA, 4-6 against GSW, 3-3 against the Rockets. His only "stinker" was the 0-2 against lottery-bound Memphis.

by TexSUN on Mar 24, 2008 11:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

Point guards
That goes along with my argument against Jason Kidd.  I feel a good point guard must have a jump shot.  Kidd is only the third best point guard in suns history because he can't shoot.  some would rather have Marbury, but oOh, what a waste of talent he was!
'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Mar 24, 2008 11:25 AM MDT up reply actions  

My argument against Jason Kidd
Jason Kidd has coasted on reputation for many years, and this is what led to the Mavs trade, and he was always overrated to begin with, imho.  That's not to say I don't think he's an amazing player, but you judge a point guard on wins not stats, and there he falls a little short.

As for playmaking abilities, Steve is clearly better than Jason, and I offer the following two points to make my case:
i)   Nash is probably the greatest offhand passer ever, and while that doesn't matter for 95% of the game, in difficult situations it gives you an option you wouldn't have otherwise had.
ii)  Nash is also the greatest exponent of the "Gretsky assist" of all time, which is what makes him, imho, the best player on the planet still.  It's a subtle argument, granted, but it belies a greater court vision and sense of how the game is unfolding.  But it's something neither Kidd, Kobe nor LeBron can do, and Chris Paul is just now learning how to do it.

by Pliny the Elder on Mar 24, 2008 11:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

also
I used to get mad on some of Nash's turnovers recently, but, I'm sure he's learning from it what he can and can't do vs certain teams (namely N.O. and G.S.) so I don't get mad. Plus, those 2 behind the back passes in a row last year to amare to win a
game vs the spurs (I think), biggest balls I've ever seen, awesome! I really think Amare is on the very edge of greatness, in fact, he's already kid of there, he just needs to keep showing it, tonight would go a long way if he dominated. But, of course he's up against R.Wallace, who does a really good job on Amare as I remember, should be fun!
Nothing in this Verse can stop us!

by jasonsuns1 on Mar 24, 2008 12:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

yep
I remember when Tim Thomas hit that big three for us to beat/tie in overtime (forget which but we won) vs Clippers I think. What I remember clearly is Nash on the left side beyond the three point line clapping his hands wanting to take that shot. Not only is he clutch, but he thrives on being able to do it. I know he has his weaknesses, but as a shooter/passer, I agree, he's awesome.

If we see the 30-40 points / 13-17 rebound (not miss too much time with too many fouls) Amare tonight, I feel pretty good about our chances. Nice to know Bell might be back, or will be soon.

Nothing in this Verse can stop us!

by jasonsuns1 on Mar 24, 2008 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions  

Off-topic, but
This is a little sad:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-080324
Marc Iavaroni, Memphis -- I was surprised to hear from a few executives this week that Iavaroni may be in trouble. He was the Boy Wonder last summer, when he topped everyone's list of available coaches. But I'm hearing his star has dimmed in Memphis. I can't believe he'd be released after one year, but folks say he's got an elitist attitude that's rubbed his players the wrong way.

Really!?!?

by TexSUN on Mar 24, 2008 5:50 AM MDT reply actions  

He's a little eggy

Not great inter-personal leadership skills IMO.

But jeez.  Look at the roster he walked into.  They cut his balls off in Feb too.  

Still, you don't get credit for rolling over.  Just ask hands-tied GM Larry Harris.

The SUNS - NOW THE HOTTEST TEAM IN THE NBA!

by ZonaFlash on Mar 24, 2008 6:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

couldn't tell, was that "really" sacasm?

I bet it was.

The SUNS - NOW THE HOTTEST TEAM IN THE NBA!

by ZonaFlash on Mar 24, 2008 6:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

Not sarcasm
I thought "elitist attitude" was a very strong word to describe someone I had always heard was well-respected, well-prepared, and all the other "good guy" traits. It's like reading somewhere that Nash is an egomaniac. The natural reaction would be: Really!?

by TexSUN on Mar 24, 2008 6:22 AM MDT up reply actions  

thats tough on Marc
But that's the team that's been cutting players left and right? Gasol for a bunch of junk players! It's pretty clear the people calling the shots over there
are clearing out any big contracts and starting over. Tough to impossible situation of Marc to be in.

too bad, we'll take him back

Nothing in this Verse can stop us!

by jasonsuns1 on Mar 24, 2008 10:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

caught a big break there, cool
as if getting the bell defender wasn't good enough, the bell assassin three point shooter has been on fire!@!

thx for update

Nothing in this Verse can stop us!

by jasonsuns1 on Mar 24, 2008 12:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

Raja and his ankle
I don't think he was ready.  Perhaps tonight will be better.
'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Mar 26, 2008 10:07 AM MDT up reply actions  

Nash
Nash might be the most complete offensive pg to ever lace 'em up, and far better in that category than Kidd, but I'm not sure it's really fair to compare those two based on the Suns success during their respective eras.

Kidd was far and away the best player on the team virtually every night during his run with the Suns, while Nash has had frequent competition for that label with Amare, and occasionally even Marion.  On the rare (hah!) night when Kidd had his jumper going, his teams were very tough to beat.  His vision/passing is right up there with Nash's, and his ability to get his own board and start the break put a lot of pressure on the other team. Throw in his 1st-team level defense (back in his prime, anyway) and he was enough to get those mediocre New Jersey teams into the finals twice.  Imagine if McDyess had stuck around, or if Googs  hadn't blown out his knee, or if he had been able to throw lobs to Amare?

As for Starbury, yee gods, what a waste of talent, we all owe Isaiah a huge debt of gratitude for taking him off our hands!  

by SoCalSun on Mar 24, 2008 1:03 PM MDT reply actions  

Does Kidd make teammates better?
My favorite damnation of Kidd is his failure to turn a pre-injury, Amare-comparable Antonio McDyess into at least a 20 point scorer.  I guarantee you if Nash was the Diceman's point guard, he would have turned him into a superstar.
'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Mar 24, 2008 1:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

Blame it on Denver
I remember pretty clearly when McDyess came over in the trade, there were some well publicized reports from the Suns practices about how raw McDyess was, even with him having been in the league a couple years by then.  Basically, as the Suns coaching staff started working with him and finding out more about what he had been doing in Denver, they discovered that the No-guts big man training programs were non-existent--they were stunned when they started showing him basic post moves and he had never seen them before.

by SoCalSun on Mar 24, 2008 1:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

Diceman
I agree he was raw, but I bet Nash would have made him better faster.  Who was the PG in Denver the second time around?  I don't think it was anyone special.
'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Mar 26, 2008 6:18 AM MDT up reply actions  

Taking Steve Nash for granted
The problem most Suns fans have is that we take Steve Nash for granted, in terms of what he does for the team, and judge him based almost wholly on his personal stats.

It's easy to have big man-love for Amare and Matrix based on stats, but in both cases neither player is capable of triggering his own offense.  It's only recently, imho, since the Shaq trade, that Amare has been able to tell the difference between stunt basketball and real basketball, and figured out which one is most important.

But Steve Nash is capable of dominating a game without scoring a single point or making a single assist, simply by facilitating the ability of other players to do those things. I don't think there's any other player in the game today about whom one could make the same claim.

by Pliny the Elder on Mar 24, 2008 1:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

Absolutely!
I think the point though was that in past years the team depended too much on Nash doing that which let other teams focus on taking him out of his game either w/ Bowen type physical play or how Nellie does w/ attacking him on the defensive end.

Now, Nash can hang back a bit more early in the game and provide spot up shooting and then as we saw in the Houston game turn it on in the fourth as needed.

I think this is a very good development for the Suns overall. There were certainly games in past playoff's where Nash was getting worn down early. Now mentally and physically he can save himself for real clutch time where he is money.

Phx - where artistic vision happens

by Seth Pollack on Mar 24, 2008 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

Another view
One of the national media guys, (maybe Sports Guy?) I think, likes to judge MVP by looking at the impact substituting a decent player in for the MVP candidate would have on the team. In the past, the answer was likely "absolutely falls apart" if you plugged anybody but Nash in at the starting PG spot for the Suns. Now, I think the Suns could still be a very good team, maybe even a contender with somebody else running the show. That's how good the rest of this team has become at making plays for one another, and how much Amare has improved, and yes, how much Shaq makes it possible to refocus the offense off the PG spot. The Suns don't "need" Nash as much anymore, but we're certainly glad to have him.

by TexSUN on Mar 24, 2008 1:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

Taking Nash for granted?
Pliny, do you really think that's the case, that Suns fans take Nash for granted?  All the recent Amare-MVP talk (much of that self generated, looks like Shaq is teaching more than post moves, lol) aside, it seems to me that most people accept that as Nash goes, so go the Suns.

Don't get me wrong, I much prefer the "Nash era" to the "Kidd era," not only because of the deep playoff runs, but for the overall aesthetic improvement of the regular season.  This is to say nothing of Nash's off-court exploits compared to Kidd's--J Kidd has been dogged by domestic drama at every stop, and now has been traded 3 times because his personal toxicity has led his franchises to conclude they were better off without him.  

by SoCalSun on Mar 24, 2008 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

yes we do take him for granted.
While it's true that most people accept that as Steve goes, so go the Suns, imho most people don't "get" Steves game insofar that he plays in such a different way to other players.

The Italians have a word, sprezzatura, which means the art of making something difficult look easy, and that applies to Steve.  When I watch a game I see him do so many amazing skillful things in a way as to seem mundane, without any kind of flash (the Gretzky assist being the most obvious example), that after a while you kind of stop noticing it.

If you asked most people who they thought the best player in the league is, you'd get a list of answers that included Kobe and LeBron.  But if you asked those same people to truly justify their choice, you'd get a bunch of cliches (great scorer, good defender, clutch shooter, makes teammates better, etc...), but no actual substantiative answer.

To truly appreciate Steves game, one has to stop thinking in terms of dunks, and flashy play, and think about flow and the way the ball moves across the floor, how Steve improvises in response to what the opposition offers, and how he uses his teammates as an extension of himself.  If you watch other pass-first point guards, such as Chris Paul and Deron Williams, you can see them trying to master this aspect of the game.

What has changed with the arrival of Shaq, is the extended passing options from the post, and the 3, so that instead of directing the offense completely, Steve is now able to play off his teammates and respond to them a lot more.

by Pliny the Elder on Mar 24, 2008 2:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

Amare
I had to comment on your take, Pliny.  Amare has shown that he can get his shot.  I saw three or four plays where he did the shake and bake from the foul line all the way to the basket.  He gets slammed for his defense, but Rasheed can't cover him.  He did block his shot, but that was a play where Amare went up indecisively.  Ususally he won't even try a fall-away jumper with a man in his face.  If he would have faked it, there was a clear lane to the basket.  I don't see that play as proof he can stop Amare.  And let me say, I think it is ridiculous the posts that criticized Amare for the two Detroit games.  He outscored Rasheed 64-43.  The rest of the team let him down.  Everyone else in the game in Phoenix, and Boris in particular in the recent game in Detroit.
'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Mar 26, 2008 6:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

While we're talking about Nash's shooting prowess
Here's something I spotted on TrueHoop today:

http://www.nba.com/hotspots/

Check out Nash's shooting. His "hot zone" is just about every where but three places (and he's "gray" on those). Absolutely no cold spots whatsoever. In home games, he doesn't even have any gray spots. Yes, this guy should be shooting more.

by TexSUN on Mar 24, 2008 1:14 PM MDT reply actions  

Steve's shooting
With Amare's increasing ability to get his own shot, the Suns will be more lethal with the option to kick out to Steve.  I see a lot of doom and gloom about the future here, but I envision the 2010 Suns to feature a Hakeem-like Amare with added post moves that can play inside out and average 30p-11r-4 blk-4ast.  The team will still have Nash, but his playmaking will be down to 7 apg as others (Boris?) take on more playmaking, but Steve will average 20 ppg with a Jeff Hornacek-style role as a spot up shooter.

The Atlanta pick is the key.  We need to get someone who can complement both players, either a Wes Unseld type post monster like Kevin Love, or a SF/SG type that can defend like Richard Hamilton.

'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Mar 26, 2008 6:38 AM MDT up reply actions  

Talented!
Nash makes you say WOW every game. Why would he even think about throwing those ally oops from where he does and he does it with absolute precision. And I think he is the best point guard I have ever seen! And recently I found a DVD about Nash online seems nice: http://dealstudio.com/searchdeals.php?deal_id=92683&ru=279 , through it, I really find this guy's a generalist. Lovvvvvve him!

by Fayhis556 on Mar 25, 2008 3:05 AM MDT reply actions  

Nash is still the one
I am so glad to read all the comments about Steve Nash. After the Houston game I read the post by TexSUN about the passing of the torch from Steve to Amare. I have been depressed ever since. I couldn't believe how people would forget what Nash has done for the Suns in a matter of 4 days (from the Portland game on Mar. 18 to the Houston game on Mar. 22). This was what Portland coach Nate Robinson said about Nash: "....Steve Nash is just an unbelievable point guard.  You're talking about a guy who directs a team and runs a team and controls the tempo and just gets his guys in the right place. Just a great job by him." and  "I think you gotta give credit when it's due. I thought we came out early and did a good job. About 5 minutes into that second quarter, Nash got a read on our defense and he picked us apart.  He ran some sets, he recognized what we were doing and he got his guys in position and they scored 3 or 4 times, maybe 3 of them were 3s which kind of broke the game open.  Late in the game, just a masterful job by him."

Thanks again for all your comments.

By nash4ever in CA

by nash4ever on Mar 25, 2008 11:11 PM MDT reply actions  

Defending Nash
I have to call 'em like I see 'em. It has seemed to me for a while that the Suns were inching toward becoming "Amare's team" already, and I think bringing Shaq in really accelerated that process (and Amare accelerated it even more himself with his "Why aren't I the MVP" comments). I've always wondered whether the Suns originally intended for Steve to become the face of the team to begin with. I've always suspected the original plan was probably for him to have a similar role with Amare in Phoenix to what he had with Dirk in Dallas. But then fate and destiny conspired, and all the sudden we had this really wonderful thing where the most unlikely of players (at the time) was suddenly winning MVP's and running amuck over the league.

Believe it or not, I share your sadness that it's changing, even though I know the Suns are a better team now that they're more big-man oriented, and less dependent on their point guard (and that Nash himself is probably ecstatic about it). In fact, I said as much in a Q&A with Steve Weinman at CelticsBlog last night. The "new" Suns to me are a little like a movie that I can recognize as great, and all my friends love it, but for some inexplicable reason, I just can't seem to love it myself. But this new "movie" starring Amare and Shaq is more likely to win the NBA equivalent of an Oscar than it was before, and that's what it's supposed to be about.

by TexSUN on Mar 26, 2008 9:04 AM MDT up reply actions  

Bill Russell once said..
that the reason he disliked the press was because they viewed the game in terms of heroes and goats, whereas in his view it was really a conflict between art and war: the art of playing beautiful, flowful basketball, and the war of intense competition against an adversary.

To me, Steve Nash epitomizes that first approach to basketball, whereas players like Kobe embody the notion of a Horatius like heroic figure, holding off the Etruscans at the bridge.

by Pliny the Elder on Mar 25, 2008 11:43 PM MDT reply actions  

To thine own self be true
Ah, Pliny. I like the Greco-Roman references.  Kobe must be Julius Caesar, taking over the Republic by illegally crossing the Rubicon.  Of course he meets his end at the Ides of March where Brutus (played by Raja Bell) puts the hurt on him.

I guess that means Augustus (Octavius) is Chris Paul, huh?

'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Mar 26, 2008 6:44 AM MDT reply actions  

Kobe is the Elephant Man...
I like to think of Phil Jackson or Kobe as Hannibal, moving elephants across the Alps to start a sneak attack on the Romans.

But in the end, Hannibal was defeated. Carthage was razed and destroyed, and its ground salted by the Romans so nothing would ever grow there again.  

After we beat the Lakers in the playoffs, it would be cool to dig a hole in the parking lot at Staples and fill it with salt, as a symbolic gesture.

by Pliny the Elder on Mar 26, 2008 10:45 AM MDT up reply actions  

Lakers? are they still in the league?
I love it!
'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Mar 26, 2008 4:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

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