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Early Game Day Open Thread: Phoenix Suns at LA Lakers


Phoenix Suns
vs.

Los Angeles Lakers
19-8 17-10
3:00 PM Mountain / 5:00 PM Eastern
TV: ABC
Probable starters:
Steve Nash PG Derek Fisher
Raja Bell SG Kobe Bryant
Grant Hill SF Luke Walton
Shawn Marion PF Lamar Odom
Amare Stoudemire C Andrew Bynum

More travel for me, so I'm creating the game day thread early. Besides, this is another one of those big games that needs multiple days for discussion, right? First things first: The Suns must make a better showing than they did last time they met the Lakers back in November. That shouldn't be a problem--no way the Suns have forgotten the sting of being humiliated on their own floor. They'll no doubt be looking for some payback. Second, like srp pointed out in the comments to last night's recap, the Lakers have looked pretty good so far this year, so there's no excuse to take this team lightly. Third and most important, it's the Lakers on Christmas Day. A victory in this situation would be especially sweet.

As I mentioned above, I am traveling, hence no live blogging during the game. The recap will be delayed as well--I'll write it when I get back home and have had a chance to watch on DVR. The good news is, this should be the last time I have to miss a game for the foreseeable future.

Given the outcome of the earlier game, I'm sad to say the Raja Bell clothesline video has been permanently banned from being the YouTube of the Day for the remainder of the season. Instead, I'll go with Steve Nash and his record-tying 23 assists in the 2007 playoffs. Since he's been on an assist tear of late, this seems especially appropriate.

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Speaking of assists
I wish I'd seen this before I created a diary for it, but it fits right in here with the 23-assist video. Here's a video I made of Steve's wonderful 16 assist/no turnover performance vs Toronto:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqGyQQHD1-E

by SueB on Dec 24, 2007 10:23 AM MST reply actions  

Toronto is not San Antonio
The Suns will never get by San Antonio because they can not stop the big three of the Spurs.  This is an interesting article about $arver.

Open Court: Suns burning out?
By Nick Prevenas
Published: Sunday, December 23, 2007 3:40 AM MST

Through 27 games of the NBA season, what are we to make of this Phoenix Suns squad?

On the surface, it would appear as if it's business-as-usual for coach Mike D'Antoni's high-flying squad.

The Suns currently sit atop the Pacific Division standings, three games ahead of the Los Angeles Lakers. At 19-8, they're currently in the mix with San Antonio, Detroit, Orlando and Dallas for the NBA's second-best record after the rejuvenated Boston Celtics.

The offense is as prolific and efficient as ever, averaging a league-best 109 points per game on nearly 50 percent shooting.

Perennial MVP candidate Steve Nash continues to defy father time. At an age where most elite point guards begin to physically break down, Nash, 33, leads the league in assists at 12.2 per game while maintaining his mind-boggling shooting percentages (52 percent from the floor, 46 percent from three-point range, 93 percent from the line).

Super sub Leandro Barbosa remains the league's quickest player off the dribble and is one of the few non-starts in this league who can singlehandedly take over a game.

Perennial MVP candidate Steve Nash continues to defy father time. At an age where most elite point guards begin to physically break down, Nash, 33, leads the league in assists at 12.2 per game while maintaining his mind-boggling shooting percentages (52 percent from the floor, 46 percent from three-point range, 93 percent from the line).

Super sub Leandro Barbosa remains the league's quickest player off the dribble and is one of the few non-starts in this league who can singlehandedly take over a game.

Newcomer Grant Hill is healthy and playing some of the best basketball of his post-Pistons career, with his cerebral approach fitting in nicely with the pass-oriented Suns attack.

However, none of this should satisfy Suns fans. While this team is very good, it could've been great.

During this three-year stretch where the Suns have become the league's most entertaining team and Nash has developed into the perfect offensive point guard, the Suns have yet to represent the Western Conference in the NBA Finals.

While the questionable Stoudemire and Boris Diaw suspensions after Game 4 of the Western Conference Finals against the Spurs last season didn't help matters, the root of these problems lies much deeper.

First, the Suns have no answers for Tim Duncan. Since he's the best player of his generation, that is nothing to be ashamed of, but as long as Duncan is healthy and surrounded by good players, he will thwart the Suns' playoff efforts.

Even when the Suns beat the Tony Parker-less Spurs 100-95 this past Monday, Duncan still had 36 points and 17 rebounds.

Second, the Suns have yet to show an ability to get a defensive stop when they absolutely need one.

Look, I love Phoenix's approach to the game and the beautiful way they execute on offense, but in playoff basketball, most games come down to one or two possessions where you have to lock down your opponent and grab a key rebound.

In a related story, this year's Suns team has the league's worst rebounding margin at minus-six per game.

Third, and most importantly, the ownership is too cheap for its own good.

New general manager and Arizona hoops legend Steve Kerr knows what it takes to put a winning team together, as he is only five years removed from his fifth NBA championship, but it's impossible to say whether majority owner Robert Sarver will give him the financial leeway to make the necessary adjustments.

In 2004, Phoenix held the No. 7 pick in what was widely considered a loaded draft. The Suns gave the pick away to the Bulls for a worthless second rounder and a future first, where Chicago selected Luol Deng, who has developed into one of the best young forwards in the league.

In 2006, desperate for a young backup point guard to help take some pressure off of Nash, the Suns elected to give Boston the 21st pick in a cash-cutting move. The Celtics selected Rajon Rondo, currently starting at point guard for the 20-2 Celtics.

The 2007 draft wasn't much different, with Phoenix selling the 24th pick to Portland to save some money. The Blazers selected promising Spanish shooter Rudy Fernandez.

Prior to the start of this season, Phoenix gave away Kurt Thomas--the squad's only legitimate post defender--to the Seattle Sonics for a couple of worthless second-round picks in another cash-cutting move.

I'm not sure I understand any of these moves. There isn't a better value in the NBA than a solid youngster playing on a rookie contract and Thomas was a proven playoff warrior.

If Sarver is so terrified of paying the luxury tax, it makes far more business sense to sell high on a veteran making more than $16 million per year--someone like, say, Shawn Marion--than to give away valuable picks in talent-heavy drafts.

While Marion is no doubt a valuable asset to this team, his numbers are down (especially his atrocious three-point shooting) and he has never seemed totally at ease, since he feels like he's the most underappreciated player in the league.

Phoenix's payroll currently stands at more than $71 million. Nash might be the best dollar-for-dollar value in the league, considering everything he brings to this franchise on and off the court, but the window is closing.

Nash won't be the league's best offensive point guard forever, not with Chris Paul breathing down his neck.

If the Suns are to win a championship in the Nash era, changes must take place, starting from the top down. Not drastic changes, mind you, just a handful of small philosophical alterations to help make this team a viable title contender.

Either that, or pray that Duncan retires soon.

by OneSunsFan on Dec 24, 2007 11:45 AM MST reply actions  

Please
1st - Generally people don't cut and paste an entire article from somewhere else. Not only is it a copywrite issue, its just rude to clog up the blog with someone else's stuff. Try a link and a few thoughts of your own next time.

2nd - This is all the same old stuff people have been saying for years. Its not even worth responding to. Sure, the Suns might not be able to get past the Spurs or perhaps the Pistons are really going to win it all. Its sports. There's never any guarantees. For any team. And I for one am looking forward to the rest of the season and THEN the chance to find out. And hey, if the Suns don't win the ring I seriously doubt I will jump off the nearest bridge.

3rd - This is a thread about tomorrow's game against the Lakers. Its a very intersting game what with the beat down they put on the Suns on the home opener which included some Phil Jax silliness when he called a double time out to rub it in and pissed of the Suns and how well they are playing with more Bynum and Odom and less Kobe. Have any thoughts on that?

Merry Christmas.

by Seth Pollack on Dec 24, 2007 8:12 PM MST up reply actions  

agreed
can you say pessimist?

by brian13 on Dec 25, 2007 12:01 PM MST reply actions  

No live blogging
But is anybody around?

Seems like a good start for the Suns. Wish Amare's jumper would come back. And he got outmuscled yet again on that one board.

I was sort of  ... hoping? ... Raja would be out, but he's been looking good defending Kobe so far.

by SueB on Dec 25, 2007 3:39 PM MST reply actions  

Good game so far
Better than that snooze fest in the first game.

by SueB on Dec 25, 2007 3:52 PM MST reply actions  

Rip-off call
Hill called for a charge. At least the ABC guys agree. Same old story. Need Nash back in the game.

by SueB on Dec 25, 2007 3:58 PM MST reply actions  

hi sue
I was just talking to my wife about that call, pretty sad when the announcers say what they did, that Hill got burned! Football has instant replay, baseball, refs just can't affect the game as much. Basketball is the one sport where a few bad calls means +5 - +10 point difference in the game. The nba needs to come up with a new system, with the technology today, it would be easy..

Maybe 2 instant replay challenges per team per quarter. And the refs can use unlimited if needed. I say just have another ref that always is on the sideline with the tv remote, to try and keep pace up.

by jasonsuns1 on Dec 25, 2007 4:02 PM MST up reply actions  

Right
After I'd typed, they decided it was the right call because it was with authority or some stupid reason.

I don't know about replay though. There's still so much judgment involved, I can't really see how they'd make rulings on plays like that. Was Ariza off the ground just a fraction before Hill was in position? How do you rule?

Ah, here's the new Nash NBA ad. Great stuff.

by SueB on Dec 25, 2007 4:07 PM MST up reply actions  

i missed the nash add
my wife ran to get me, but have to catch replay. On replay of Hill, he was set before, and out of automatic charge circle.

by jasonsuns1 on Dec 25, 2007 4:18 PM MST up reply actions  

Sweeeet - thanks!
I missed that IRL. I skip through the commericials (thanks Tivo!) but every so often there's a great one.

by Seth Pollack on Dec 25, 2007 4:45 PM MST up reply actions  

Great game so far...
Ok - end of the 1st Qtr and the Suns are up 26-25. Great game so far. Great energy and effort. Amare was fantastic early as was Nash and Marion. It looked like they were trying to get Marion involved offensively and he just barely missed a few at the rim but moved GREAT w/o the ball - as always.

Then Diaw came in an wow. He looked fantastic. He finished on a great Nash assist and then caught the ball on the baseline, pump faked his man and drove and then launched himself at the rim for a two-handed dunk. He was fouled by Odom and didn't finished but the aggressivness was was thing of beauty. Defensively when Nash and Amare were out Skinner got two quick blocks and the Suns really played hard.

This looks like its going to be a great game.

by Seth Pollack on Dec 25, 2007 4:00 PM MST reply actions  

Tied at halftime
I know the Suns can play better. Maybe the Lakers can, too? We'll see. Good game.

by SueB on Dec 25, 2007 4:38 PM MST reply actions  

Derek friggin Fisher
That guy's the difference in this game - and it wasn't like he was getting uncontested looks either. But wow is this Laker's team better then last year's. Kobe has only 12 pts and the Lakers score 62? No way that happens last year. This team is good. Easily as good as the Mav's - at least right now.

by Seth Pollack on Dec 25, 2007 4:43 PM MST up reply actions  

Yup
He was in a "you can't stop me" streak for a few minutes there, and they couldn't.

by SueB on Dec 25, 2007 4:45 PM MST up reply actions  

Nash leading the Sun in scoring
With 13 pts. Of course I love it when he scores, but it's not a good sign. Need better production from Marion (5 pts) and Amare (9 pts).

by SueB on Dec 25, 2007 4:44 PM MST reply actions  

"The Sun"
Ha. Thank God, it was the 60s and they chose "Suns" instead of "Sun". I hate team nicknames that don't end in s. Magic. Heat. Mercury. Garbage.

by SueB on Dec 25, 2007 4:47 PM MST up reply actions  

Not really enjoying myself
Find myself swearing too much, which is unfortunate because, unlike most games I watch, the kids are up and lingering around. I want to see that foul on Amare again. Seemed like he was there.

by SueB on Dec 25, 2007 5:00 PM MST reply actions  

That's better
Hot 3-point shooting by the Suns helps my mood immensely. Keep it up, boys.  

by SueB on Dec 25, 2007 5:10 PM MST reply actions  

I don't know
Lakers seem to be making all the impressive plays, but the Suns ARE hanging in. I want to see some guts and grit in this 4th quarter.

by SueB on Dec 25, 2007 5:20 PM MST reply actions  

yep..but
If it wasn't obvious earlier, it is now. This Laker team is much better than last year. Still hoping as you are we pull this out.

by jasonsuns1 on Dec 25, 2007 5:32 PM MST up reply actions  

No doubt
But I still think the Suns should be able to beat them, even there.

At least it is better than the first time we played them!

FINALLY, a call that went against Kobe. Ha. Way to go, Steve.

by SueB on Dec 25, 2007 5:35 PM MST up reply actions  

haha
the announcer when talking about nash, "he's ambidextrous with both hands... (like he'd be ambidextrous with one hand..moron)

by jasonsuns1 on Dec 25, 2007 5:35 PM MST reply actions  

love skinner
He reminds me of the consistency of K.Thomas from 18ft, on Kobe earlier, he traveled big time.

by jasonsuns1 on Dec 25, 2007 5:36 PM MST reply actions  

He's been great
Van Gundy can't believe it. Shows how much he's been paying attention to the Suns.  

by SueB on Dec 25, 2007 5:39 PM MST up reply actions  

Balance
Suns now have 6 players in double figures and two who are close (Marion 9, Diaw 8). But down by 7. Grrrrrr.

Only Nash has more than 14. Not enough to beat Kobe's 32 plus Bynum's 24.

by SueB on Dec 25, 2007 5:38 PM MST reply actions  

Not looking good
Down by 10, 4 minutes left. Of course, we've seen them pull games like this out, but I just don't feel it today.

by SueB on Dec 25, 2007 5:43 PM MST reply actions  

announcers are idiots mostly
but the lakers are the better team tonight

by jasonsuns1 on Dec 25, 2007 5:46 PM MST reply actions  

Okay, still hoping
Couple of stops and back to 5. Too bad Raja missed those 2 FTs. And as soon as I say it, the Lakers get an easy bucket to push it back to 7 with 2:23 left.

by SueB on Dec 25, 2007 5:47 PM MST reply actions  

Well, not anymore
Guess you're right about them being the better team on the day. Not sure why Amare taking a 3 was a good play out of a timeout.

by SueB on Dec 25, 2007 5:52 PM MST reply actions  

me either...
Amare was grossly overshadowed by Bynum today,

amare 6 for 11 field goals, 7-10 freethrows, 6 reb
bynum 11 for 13 fg, 6-8 freethrows, 12 reb and 14 by odom

i still have hope for us, hill is so good!! But I will never forget how close we were to getting Garnett, but the Hill, Skinner pickups have been nothing short of great. Pretty upset about Bell supposedly being one of our top 3 point shooters blowing 2 of 3 free throws at the end!

 

by jasonsuns1 on Dec 25, 2007 7:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Worst loss of the year
This one really really hurts. Not only is it LA - who I have HATED for decades - but we are seeing the emergence of a real threat in our own division.

When you add Kobe to a team with a solid 7ft big man, a versitle FG in Odom and then a some really decent role players who are sharing the ball and playing hard...wow. I was worried about the Ariza trade when it happened and now I know why. He's a much better option for them against us b/c he can play atheltic defense against Hill and also give them another option to finish at the rim.

And its not as if the Suns were sucking wind tonight. They got beat by a better team. ouch.

Now, its still early and Lakers could trade Kobe, lose Odom again, or just not make it over the hump due to their youth. And I do think that in the playoffs in 7 games the Suns would win. But I would rather not have to find out. I would much rather match up w/ Utah or Houston or even the GSW's.

by Seth Pollack on Dec 25, 2007 8:26 PM MST reply actions  

Bad loss
Amare really needs to step it up. First half he was outplayed by Erica Dampier in the Dallas game and now Bynum.

We missed some key FTs down the stretch that was surprising, even Nashy missed one! Our shooting in general tonight was off.

Lakers are definitely better than last year, but we would still win in a 7 game series once we start playing better.

by alta on Dec 25, 2007 9:39 PM MST reply actions  

Ugh!
Couldn't watch the game due to having to travel to one brother's home for Christmas during the first half and my sister's house for during during the 2nd half.  Only heard some of the middle part of the game and saw a little at the end.  I knew when I heard Nash was the leading scorer for the Suns that they were in trouble. I am sorry to say this, but I think Amare has been a big disappointment this season and find myself  wishing the Garnett talk/trade had happened for Phx.  

by TwinnerA on Dec 26, 2007 6:14 AM MST reply actions  

TwinnerA
sadly, I agree. Funny thing during this game. I was really paying more attention to Amare than in any previous games I've actually seen, curious to try and get a hold of what is happening with him. Sure enough, besides the obvious poor rebounding, another thing that will bother me until he doesn't play for us anymore..is this...

On one particular play Bynum made a bide dunk with Amare guarding him (actually this happened a few times), Amare was pretty quiet until this particular dunk), then on the very next play, the Amare who comes out once in a while, but not every game appeared, took a pass from top of the key - free throw level, and took one dribble and slammed it down. It was the type of drive and score that made me remember of the Amare from 2 yrs ago, the Amare who played incredible against the Mavs in a playoff series, the Amare who we all thought was on his way to becoming the best player in the league. What happened? I know he got injured, but this motivation on/off again is purely mental. I think we're in real trouble as a team if our big guy who many think is our future has motivation problems. Granted, some of this might be due to him picking up cheap fouls and getting off the court too quick because of it....but dam, does anyone else notice sometimes the Amare of old shows up, then more often he doesn't.

I like Nash, but could it be the equal - fairness thing is actually hurting Amare, in other words, maybe we're not going to Amare early enough, he sure isn't getting many shots off. I think Amare is our number one scoring option, but we haven't been treating him like it...so, many angles on this one...

by jasonsuns1 on Dec 26, 2007 10:34 AM MST up reply actions  

All really good observations
I remember clearly the play you were talking about, and I posted this at azc after it happened. That place is a train wreck, but I can't help but take a visit sometimes. I posted it there because there was a running Amare vs Bynum debate:

"I thought maybe that reaction by Bynum would inspire Amare to play better, and he did get the slam at the other end and he and Matrix doubled Bynum and stole it the next time down. But he still needs to be better."

But that was about it. One single, "so there". For the Suns to be better, Amare can and must be better on a consistent basis. And the team must help him to be better. If it's feeding him more often, so be it. But if it's not possible to make him better, then .... :(

by SueB on Dec 26, 2007 10:56 AM MST up reply actions  

yep...
hey, something else, I think I remember hearing months ago that Amare had been made one of the team captains along with Marion ad Nash. But on nba.com, it has Hill, Nash and Marion as captains. I was curious if this was accurate, and if Amare was a captain, but isn't anymore... that sort of stuff.

thx

by jasonsuns1 on Dec 26, 2007 11:22 AM MST up reply actions  

Grumpy
I am not sure if I am grumpy today because I had to be in at work the day after Christmas or if it is because of the Suns.  Probably the Suns, plus the first thing out of the UPS guy's mouth this morning was that he doesn't think Phx will win the division.  Sigh.  Maybe all those short practices we are always hearing about should be extended to work on defense only.  We all know they can score, but it's the defense or lack thereof that needs some major retooling.  If the effort isn't there for Amare/Suns, then maybe they don't really want it that bad, and if that's the case, it won't ever happen.

SueB, I never read the board over at AZCentral (or at ESPN) because it gives me a headache.  A train wreck indeed.

by TwinnerA on Dec 26, 2007 11:18 AM MST reply actions  

Missing Mark?
I wonder how much the loss of Ivaroni is to the Suns' interior defense? Clearly, this is their worst area and it was exactly what Iveroni was in charge of.

Perhaps instead of a player trade, Kerr needs to go out and find a new assistant coach to come in the manage the defense like Mark did.

by Seth Pollack on Dec 26, 2007 1:30 PM MST reply actions  

Really good point
He was also a preparation freak, and I have to wonder if the coaching staff has quite the same focus and attention to detail without him around. It's great that he got a head-coaching opportunity, but I think he was definitely the Suns' biggest off-season loss.

by SueB on Dec 26, 2007 2:44 PM MST up reply actions  

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