Suns do NOT get the Hawks' pick

All that tanking paid off I guess.

Poor Bill Simmons. Not only do the Celtics get screwed, so does his "adopted" team. Sigh

by TexSUN on May 22, 2007 6:54 PM MDT reply actions

Bad News Bad News Good News

The good news is if we didn't get the Atl pick at least they got the #3 so they are likely to be in lottery contention next year to when we get their pick unprotected. Although they aren't likely to be in the bottom 5...

The bad news is that the West just changed for the next 10 years. Portland just got a TON better and Seattle as well. It will be fun seeing Oden and Durant play but not that much fun to play against them. Makes you want to keep Marion just to guard Durant...

by Seth Pollack on May 22, 2007 6:58 PM MDT reply actions

I blame Simmons

He just has bad luck. His baseball team took forever to win a championship. His Celtics now have the curse and the team he says he loves - the Suns - seem to be getting the raw end of the deal a lot now also.

But come on...can we really consider the Suns cursed considering they've gone to the Western Conference Finals two out of the past three years and had the second best record in the league this past year?

by Dan @ Bright Side Of The Sun on May 22, 2007 6:58 PM MDT reply actions

Jon Barry's a moron

He just said the Trailblazers should trade the #1 pick and get some veteran guys. He's either a moron or he's drunk. Or both.

by Dan @ Bright Side Of The Sun on May 22, 2007 6:59 PM MDT reply actions

I don't know...

The T-Blazers already have a TON of young talent. Of all the crazy possibilities, they are most likely to be willing to do something like this.

They have Zach Randolf, LaMarcus Aldridge, Brandon Roy, Sergio Rodriquez and then a lot of depth w/ Darius Miles, Travis Outlaw, Jarrett Jack, Dan Dickau, Udoka, Jamaal Magloire....they are a really stacked but mostly lacking leadership and experience.

I doubt they will trade the #1 pick but I would look for them to make some serious moves somewhere to get more experience. Maybe a PG? I don't know off the top of my head who they may look at but I doubt it would make sense for them to want Marion or anything the Suns have other then Jalen Rose. He would actually be a smart move for them in the locker room.

by Seth Pollack on May 22, 2007 7:32 PM MDT up reply actions

Time to turn off ESPN

Since I'm boycotting the WCF's this year.

by Dan @ Bright Side Of The Sun on May 22, 2007 7:00 PM MDT reply actions

Consider us cursed

I definitely think we are cursed after the past week and now this. Atlanta has the #3 pick and Joe Johnson and we have Doris Diaw.

by TwinnerA on May 22, 2007 7:00 PM MDT reply actions

seriously

u really have to stop being such a B#%#@ (since children read this). You can't look at the outcome of the trade until NEXT YEAR now and see where we pick. So if we land the 1st overall pick, what are you gonna say then?

Oh I know, you'll be a two-face and say GREAT trade.

by Coolbean04 on May 23, 2007 10:58 AM MDT up reply actions

Or maybe...

...the Suns are about to take off and win the next five championships? Maybe all this bad stuff needs to happen first just to restore the balance? (That's how it seems to happen in my own life a lot anyway...)

by TexSUN on May 22, 2007 7:04 PM MDT reply actions

I can live with it.....barely

I was so hoping for the 4 pick this year, if only to get some hot young talent off the bench. Saddly enough that was not meant to be. We do still have 2 other picks though and with Marion likely being traded we'll atleast make some kinda deal, if not for a straight up trade then maybe movin up the draft. I'm really curious to see the kinda deals that are gunna go down these next weeks. God knows the Suns have lots of ammo to make trades happen (read Marion), we'll just have to see what we can get. Who knows, maybe we'll keep one of our lower picks or even both after we drop off some of the dead weight of our bench (read Banks, Burke, Marks).

"Ultimate excellence lies not in winning every battle, but in defeating your enemy without ever fighting." Sun Tzu

by Turambar on May 22, 2007 7:04 PM MDT reply actions

look on the bright side.......

Maybe next year's draft will be hot as well. And we'll certainly own Atlanta's pick then, and you can bet that the 3rd pick wont gaurantee them a playoff berth.

"Ultimate excellence lies not in winning every battle, but in defeating your enemy without ever fighting." Sun Tzu

by Turambar on May 22, 2007 7:06 PM MDT up reply actions

Curious...

Dan: Why do you think not getting the pick makes it more likely Amare or Shawn will be dealt? Because you think the Suns will just give up trying to win it all and start rebuilding? I would think (assuming they're still on a quest for a championship) it makes it more likely they'll keep those two around, because now they don't have a high first round pick to pay.

by TexSUN on May 22, 2007 7:06 PM MDT reply actions

But.....

Tex remember though that we are 12million over the cap IF we keep all our players. Someone will more than likely go, even if we're still seriously gonna strive for a ring. More than likely that will mean Marion will be gone along with some of the bench. Now i'll miss the Matrix a whole lot, but if we can get someone worthwhile for him then maybe I can deal with it. Now thanks to the lottery screwing us our options just got a little smaller, but I'm certain that the trade winds will blow soon. Whether that shall be for good or bad I really cant say. Who know's Tex, maybe one of our lower picks will become an AllStar

"Ultimate excellence lies not in winning every battle, but in defeating your enemy without ever fighting." Sun Tzu

by Turambar on May 22, 2007 7:11 PM MDT up reply actions

Note:

Lottery doesn't screw anyone...if anything, the Celtics have the right to complain but it was random...it's just the way the cookie crumbles - or in this case, the way the balls get sucked up the air shoot thingy.

by Dan @ Bright Side Of The Sun on May 22, 2007 7:31 PM MDT up reply actions

Bump

The lottery did not screw us. We structured the trade with the protected 1-3 pick in it. We were lucky that Atlanta was in such a position for us to possibly be in #4. Memphis and Boston have MUCH more to complain about than we do. Saying that it 'screwed us' makes us sound like whiners.

by andrewinnewyork on May 22, 2007 7:37 PM MDT up reply actions

My bad

I'm just grumpy that our crushing loss to the Spurs is capped off by losing a good pick in an awesome draft. I realize we werent screwed, i'm just cranky. There is stil much hope for the future and I'm certain we'll make some big trades.

"Ultimate excellence lies not in winning every battle, but in defeating your enemy without ever fighting." Sun Tzu

by Turambar on May 22, 2007 8:43 PM MDT up reply actions

Cranky

I agree with.

Crank.

by andrewinnewyork on May 23, 2007 9:05 AM MDT up reply actions

Ok, what I meant was...

...How does not getting a pick make it more likely guys are going to be traded. I would have thought that getting the pick would make it more likely someone would be moved. Dan explained quite well below. Anyway, no big deal.

by TexSUN on May 22, 2007 8:01 PM MDT up reply actions

As far as I understand

The difference between a #5 draft pick and a #25 draft pick really isn't that much in how much the Suns need to pay them.

I think now that the Suns don't have a high draft pick, they're going to have to try and make a move to get to where they need to be. They've lost to the Spurs twice and the Mavericks once in the playoffs over the past three years. The Suns are obviously not quite there yet since they still haven't been able to get over the hump yet. This year was their best chance and it wasn't like they were overwhelmingly better than the Spurs so there wasn't any guarantee that even with a full squad the Suns would have pulled it out.

So without the high draft pick, I definitely think the Suns will make a major move now. Whereas with a high draft pick, I think they would have just tried to get rid of some of the role players to free up money and keep everyone.

If I were running the team, Nash, Amare, LB and Raja would be protected. Everyone else would be up for grabs if the right deal came along. But ONLY if the right deal came along. There is no need to run a fire sale here.

by Dan @ Bright Side Of The Sun on May 22, 2007 7:30 PM MDT reply actions

We have an entire month to speculate

But off the top of my pointy head I would be on the phone to MJ talking about how to get Gerald Wallace for Shawn Marion done.

Maybe they get Marion and our 26th pick and we get Wallace and their #8. That would be a sweet deal if you ask me.

Then I would be talking to the ATL about Josh Smith for Marion and some other stuff to make that work. I think that also seems like something doable b/c Atlanta would get the hustle and energy and "veteran presense" of Marion. I had to put that in quotes b/c when I think of Trix "veteran presense" aren't exactly what comes to mind...but shhhhh. Don't tell them that!

by Seth Pollack on May 22, 2007 7:45 PM MDT reply actions

I don't want to do anything that

could possibly help Atlanta rise out of the lottery next year. Though Marion vanishes in the post-season, he is good for wins during the year, and we want to see ATL right back in that lottery next year with our unprotected pick.

by andrewinnewyork on May 22, 2007 7:54 PM MDT up reply actions

That is a consideration - true enough

But they also have both the #3 and #11 picks this year so maybe there's a way to get their #3 this year or at least their #11.

Either way, I doubt they will be a lottery team next year since they aren't going to keep both the #3 and the #11 this year with all the young talent they already have. So if we don't deal w/ them someone else will.

by Seth Pollack on May 22, 2007 8:16 PM MDT up reply actions

Maybe we could...

Give them back their pick and take their 11th? I think that's probably as good as we're going to get at this point anyway. Can't see Atlanta tanking the season again next year. They were way better than they played most of the time.

by TexSUN on May 22, 2007 8:25 PM MDT up reply actions

I see I'm not the only one who likes Josh Smith

I was actually thinking earlier in the year that maybe the Suns should try to trade back Atlanta's pick + somebody we aren't using to acquire Josh Smith. The only concern is that he may be a bit of a headcase. But I LOVE his game. LOVE it.

by TexSUN on May 22, 2007 8:00 PM MDT up reply actions

Absolutely!

What I am looking for is a 3 is a Marion-lite for half the cost. Josh Smith. Gerald Wallace. There's several out there to be had I think.

I don't know about Josh Smith being a head case btw. I hadn't heard that but I don't exactly monitor the going's on in the ATL.

Well, I do know that Michael Vick is a) a porn star b) a dog fighting promoter c) a drug smuggler d) a running back who happens to receive snaps from center...

by Seth Pollack on May 22, 2007 8:19 PM MDT up reply actions

Details are vague

I just thought I remembered something about the Hawks suspending him for "conduct detrimental to the team" or some such. Of course, maybe he was trying to win games. That would have been detrimental. :) But he's on a short list of "young" guys that I actually would be ok to trade Marion for. Josh Smith would kill in our system!

by TexSUN on May 22, 2007 8:23 PM MDT up reply actions

That block on Amare...

anyway here's a great highlight clip. He could certainly handle Nash's lobs and then some. He's at $2.2m this coming year and $3.1 the next. The more I think about it the more I think the Hawks would be crazy to do it...but who knows...

by Seth Pollack on May 22, 2007 8:31 PM MDT up reply actions

Ok...Done

I'll make that deal any day based on what I saw there. But...is he a class guy? And would he fit in on this team?

by Dan @ Bright Side Of The Sun on May 22, 2007 9:34 PM MDT up reply actions

Not sure and YES

I don't know about him being a "class guy". I can't remember what the incident was about, and I may be mis-remembering the thing altogether. But as far as him fitting into our system--are you KIDDING me??? That guy would be AWESOME here (on both ends of the floor).

by TexSUN on May 22, 2007 9:39 PM MDT up reply actions

not cool

I think we're going to miss Marion a LOT more than we think we will. 18 pts AND(!) 10/11 rebounds per game. And then his defense. I know it seems like he was never there when we needed him (I contend that I've never seen him make a big clutch shot, albeit he's grabbed some big clutch rebounds) but his defense, speed, health (he's never injured!) and explosiveness will be sorely missed.

He's a lifetime Sun for crying out loud! A special player and it breaks my heart that Josh Smith is looking pretty good at the moment.

downintx.com

by kidjay on May 22, 2007 11:18 PM MDT reply actions

Marion isn't gone yet

...unless you know something the rest of us don't. I was just saying that if Marion has to go, we could do a lot worse than Josh Smith to replace him.

by TexSUN on May 23, 2007 12:00 AM MDT up reply actions

Marion

My think w/ Marion is this:

The production and role he fills on this team is fantastic but I don't think it warrants the value of his contract. I would love to see a stat like points/$ or rebounds/$ or overall production/$. And w/ the Suns so far over the cap they are going to have to move some serious contracts and for me Marion is it. I think there are plenty of other althetic 3's that can guard a Tracy McGrady or Kobe and can also grab rebounds and play above the rim.

He also has an attitude issue. For some crazy reason he things he should be the #1 option. I think he is at the point where he's not happy here and it may or already has impacted team chemistry. I think this is the time to get max value for him before negative things start getting around and he's coming of a few alstar seasons in a row.

by Seth Pollack on May 23, 2007 9:09 AM MDT up reply actions

Doesn't this picture just say it all?

(From AZCentral)

by TexSUN on May 23, 2007 12:02 AM MDT reply actions

The Hawks and other things

I just can't see the Hawks trading with us now. All that we can offer them is a SF, granted a great SF, but still only a SF. They've got SFs! Childress. Williams. Smith. They need PGs, and we only have one. If the Hawks are smart, they'll draft size at 3 and pray for Conley at 11. If he's not there they'll have to either trade down for Law or Crittenton or just trade for a veteran PG. But I can't imagine SF is very high on their "needs" list.

Also: Let's not get too hasty about trading the Hawks 2008 pick. That's a great pick. Sure, the Hawks will improve next year, but I believe they'll still be in the lottery. And next year's draft is a great, great PG draft. Rose, Mayo, Lawson, Gordon, Collison to name a few. We could have our choice of those guys and finally find a successor for Nash.

Lastly: I've been thinking up Marion trades all evening, since we lost the 4 and need a new way to develop. Of course, the Wallace trade would be ideal, but I'm worried his sign and trade contract will make him to expensive to get us under the LT threshold. So another one I've come up with is:

Marion + Banks + 24 pick + 29 pick to Memphis for

Mike Miller + Stromile Swift + 4 pick.

I would love this trade. I know that Miller isn't near Marion as a defender, but he's a big-time scorer and we could use another player who can create his own shot (Marion couldn't). Plus, we get Swift, who though overpaid, is decent rebounder and shot-blocker. And with the 4 pick, we could either get size (Horford, Hibbert, Noah) or an athletic 3 in the Marion mold (Brewer, J. Wright). Most importantly, I think Memphis would do it. They'd get Marion who would slide right between Gay and Gasol at the 4. They'd get Banks, who is talented, to help their vacant backcourt. And they'd get the 24 and 29 picks in a very deep draft. Plus, I'd bet bringing in Marion would do alot to console all those embittered Memphis fans.

G

by rosewood on May 23, 2007 12:04 AM MDT reply actions

Hawks

Clearly the Hawks and Suns are not making deals, with Smith, Marion, picks, anyone. We have their #1 pick next year and it is in our interest for their team to fail. Trading their pick back is not an option.

I'm skeptical of Memphis giving up their pick, but if it could be made to work, we could do worse than the above.

by andrewinnewyork on May 23, 2007 9:12 AM MDT up reply actions

Keep Marion and Find a Point Guard

I'd love to see Marion retire as a Sun. I really think it's mainly up to him. Phoenix could relatively easily package the late picks with Diaw and/or Banks to move up a bit and pick up a backup PG (and a PG for the future) like Conley or Law. They'd still be over the cap, but not by $12M.

For all of Doris' problems, when he came out with the second string and the ball ran through him, he did have some good moments -- they were just few and far between. Given the right deal, someone's got to see something in him.

The Suns' biggest present problem is a backup PG (other than hip checks) and the biggest future problem is Nash's replacement.

Before you say, "We've got LB" consider this:
We need to keep LB at the 2 -- he's not the answer -- because he plays better there and he is not the decision-maker that Nash. LB will never be a great distributor.

"How do I know this?" You may ask.
I know this because he's Brazilian, and he has a Brazilian striker's mentality (a striker is a soccer player). I play soccer with Brazilians and I know the look -- they look to score and that's it. And, they're pretty good at it.

Keep LB at 2 and find a backup PG for now and for the future. That is what will keep the Suns in "it" for the long run.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on May 23, 2007 12:13 AM MDT reply actions

You don't need to say he's brazilian

to note that he is not the answer as a successor to Nash. You could just watch him play. He is clearly a drive-first guard better suited to the 2. He needs to learn to calm his nerves so he can make 3s in the playoffs (which can be learned). Becoming a distributor and seeing the floor better is harder to learn.

by andrewinnewyork on May 23, 2007 9:11 AM MDT up reply actions

LB at the 1

I agree that LB isn't the answer to backing up Nash and belongs at the 2 and I agree we need another PG to replace Banks (that will actually get floor time).

But, I would point how long it took Nash to develop into the PG he is.

LB still has some time and each year has improved. He's been asked by this team to be a scorer. To come in of the bench and put up big #'s and that's what he did. Well, that's what he did right up until the last round against SA.

I am not completely willing to say that he can't also become a decent distributor in years to come. As he matures and learns to read the defense and react instictively he certainly has the talent to move the ball and the offensive threat to draw enough attention to get his guys open.

Right now he is also "too nice" and doesn't seem to have a killer instinct but again, they said that about Nash early in his career too. It may be 5 more years before we really know what LB is going to be.

We know he will never be Steve Nash, but who will?

by Seth Pollack on May 23, 2007 9:50 AM MDT up reply actions

I'm big on LB's future

I think he can only keep improving and he has every sign he will. I just don't think it's wise to imagine he is the answer for the hole that Nash will leave in 2-3 years.

by andrewinnewyork on May 23, 2007 10:21 AM MDT up reply actions

Let LB Shoot the Ball.

The difference between Nash's "development" and LB's "development" is that Nash had the earmarks that he could do what he's doing now. He grew into the player he is, but he started with a different set of tools.

LB's tools are as a very fast, very good shooting guard. We lose so much from him in this regard when he's plays the point, and the problem gets compounded by the fact he's not suite for the point guard.

He does an adequate job filling in at point, but the costs are high and it can't be like this in the future.

Going back to my soccer analogy, you wouldn't put Ronaldo in the midfield. You put him at striker and tell him to take shots. Let someone else who's better at setting up the shots set LB up for his.

Mmmmm ... Guinness

by JSun on May 23, 2007 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions

Great analogy

I don't disagree at all. I have said all along that LB is a striker and that we need a answer to sub for Nash at the center mid position.

I am just saying that LB can and likely will improve on that part of his game as he matures. I am more anxious to see him develop his killer instinct and mental toughness though. Clearly, there will always be a role for someone w/ his skills....its the intangibles that I am most looking forward to some growth and then some development in his passing. In that order of importance.

by Seth Pollack on May 23, 2007 1:31 PM MDT up reply actions

Cap clarification

The Suns are going to be somewhere around 18-22M dollars over the salary cap next year. This year our salary was at 66M and the cap was 53M. That wasn't an issue though, because we were still right at the luxury tax threshold (I think it was like 65M), so we had little to pay. Next year, we'll be at 76M in salary before rookie salaries and will have lots to pay b/c of the luxury tax, like 8-10M lots. Sarver ain't down with this. Can you blame him? But just to remind: we're not trying to get under the cap. There's no chance of that. We're trying to stay under the LT threshold. Two different things.

G

by rosewood on May 23, 2007 12:22 AM MDT reply actions

1st round pick

Will Acie law IV be available for us in the first round? He could be a good back-up to Steve Nash and he could prepped to take over if and when nash retires.

by deepak on May 23, 2007 11:44 AM MDT reply actions

Law IV

I doubt Law will still be there at 24, so we'd have to trade up for him. But even then he doesn't strike me as a good replacement. He's really more of a scorer than distributor. If Javaris Crittenton falls, I'd prefer him. Or we could get Gabe Pruitt at 29. Actually, though I'm praying that Tiago Splitter is still there at 24. Or that no one else is willing to take the sizable risk on all-worldly talented Sean Williams and we can steal him at 24 or 29. Either player would improve our interior D significantly.

G

by rosewood on May 23, 2007 11:49 AM MDT up reply actions

Pray

Hope the hawks really screw up this year and get the No 1 pick next year in the lottery. OJ Mayo will be a Sun .;-)

by deepak on May 23, 2007 1:54 PM MDT reply actions

Mayo?

Forget Mayo. Give me Derrick Rose.

G

by rosewood on May 23, 2007 2:28 PM MDT up reply actions

Marion to Boston?

This deal makes a lot of sense to me too. And you have to think that Ainge's ties to the Suns don't hurt either:

Phoenix Gives Up: Shawn Marion, Marcus Banks, and the #29 pick

Boston Gives Up: the #5 pick, Theo Ratliff's expiring $12 million contract (in 2008), Delonte West, Kendrick Perkins, and their first round pick in 2008

by Seth Pollack on May 23, 2007 5:32 PM MDT reply actions

Not sure it would work or the Suns would do it

Sounds to me like it's a Celtics fan trying to benefit the Celtics. I tried this on the ESPN trade machine (without the picks) and got the following error:

The Celtics are over the cap, and their incoming salaries are greater than 125% plus $100,000 of their outgoing salaries. They need to cut $524,305 from the incoming trade value to make this trade successful.

by Dan @ Bright Side Of The Sun on May 23, 2007 8:34 PM MDT up reply actions