Lakers Dump Suns: 130-124

by Seth Pollack on Feb 20, 2008 11:15 PM MST in Phoenix Suns: Game Coverage

The Suns played well enough to beat 28 other teams but unfortunately that wasn't enough to win tonight against Kobe and the Pinkies.

First, let's just get this out of the way. Shaq played well. Better then I would have expected. He certainly played hard and got better as the game went on. He had a few nice passes and was solid on the boards. Clearly there's a new plan when Steve is resting. Give the ball to Shaq and wait. Fun stuff. Not to be negative but I didn't see a single spin move or any other low post stuff and he clearly was a liability on D away from the paint.

And speaking of D, I can live with Kobe playing awesome and hitting those amazing pull up J's and even getting to the rim a few times. Pau hitting hook shots over Diaw you can also live with. And Odom is going to take Amare off the dribble a few times. But the rotations on the screens has got to improve and the Suns really need to spend some time figuring out how they are going to play team D with and without Shaq on the floor.

The offense will be the easy part and if the rebounding trend continues then we can even survive a little drop off there. But good teams - and there are many - are going to tear us up if we can figure out the rotations and close out on shooters. Its really frustrating b/c it seemed that the Suns had finally figured some of this out right before the trade. I hope it won't take two more months to sort out again.

Then again, the Lakers are clearly playing the best ball in the league right now.

I think its time us Suns fans prepare ourselves being in the chase for the division lead for the rest of the season. One thing for sure. Its not going to be boring.

Player of the Game:

As much as it pains me it has to be Kobe. He played a near perfect game shooting effeciently and passing well. He had a few nice blocks and at the end took over. So much for his poor little pinkie booboo.

Other observations

This was a very strange game to watch. After seeing the Suns play pretty much every game in the Nash era this was as if some other group of fella's came in and stole their uniforms. Its going to take time for them to figure out and its going to take time for fans like me to adjust as well.

And its really a shame that Shaq's first game and all the hype around that had to be against the Lakers. He really should have at least played a few minutes against the lowly Mavs last week. Early in the game the entire team really looked clueless at times and it took some solid shooting from Nash and Hill in the first half to even stay in it.

And now as a special treat to you, enjoy a few minutes of 1:1 time w/ the MVP himself as he drives home in his Prius and talks Suns and politics.

Boxscore NBA.com Recap Arizona Republic

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Comments

It WAS strange

Everything has changed it seems. It's hard to shake off preconceptions from the last couple of years but the Lakers are good, maybe the best in the lig, the Mavs aren't very good right now (even with jkidd), the Hornets are good, and the Spurs...

nah the Spurs are still good. I think what I (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) forgot is that Kobe is awesome. That fact was shadowed the past few years cuz that team sucked and was very inconsistent (think NY Giants...and look what they did).

The Suns looked weird. But I think it's going to work out. Most entertaining Suns game from start to finish this year. Definite playoff atmosphere.

downintx.com

by kidjay on Feb 20, 2008 11:48 PM MST reply actions

Bad loss that showed some upside

Yeah it really stinks to lose to the Fakers, no matter what. But I'll be damned if this game didnt show some huge upsides for the Shaq trade.

Firstly we actually dominated the glass and had 13 O boards to boot. That my friends is drastically different from what we have known for the past few years. Will that trend hold up? I think so...as long as Shaq stays healthy (KNOCK ON WOOD!!!!). Also having STAT away from the center position already seems to be paying off. Just how many PF's do you know that will be able to match up against him well? That's what I thought.

Overall I see alot of good things coming out of this tough loss. If Shaq can maintain an average of 15-16 pts 10rebs and 2blks then things shall start to look rather well for this team. It will take a few weeks but the Suns will adjust to having Shaq.

"I have heard that in war haste can be folly, but have never seen delay that was wise." Sun Tzu

by Turambar on Feb 21, 2008 12:01 AM MST reply actions

Statistics

I think it's funny that Shaq put up more or less a mediocre Marion line (15 pts, 9 rebs, 2 blks), yet for some reason it really does feel like the Suns have a lot more upside now.

I guess it's what they're talking about when they talk about intangibles.

Also: I'm actually anxious for Bynum to come back. With him at the 5, I think we match up better with the Lakers. As it was tonight, Gasol could draw Shaq out of the paint and Odom had no trouble facing up Amare on the perimeter. But bump them to the 4 and 3 respectively and I don't see that happening as much i.e. Amare on Gasol and Hill on Odom sounds a lot better. It won't solve all our problems. But it will help.

by rosewood on Feb 21, 2008 2:02 AM MST reply actions

Bynum will help the Lakers

I think you're absolutely wrong about this. On defense the Lakers could still play Gasol on Shaq if they wanted to while having Bynum guard Amare (and we saw how that went on Xmas). On offense for the Lakers, will Shaq be mobile enough to deal with all the high screens and lob dunks that Bynum gets? Shaq's bulk will be able to bully Bynum off the low block, but will he be able to jump enough to bother Bynum's drop-steps and jump hooks? Bynum's ridiculously long arms give him a big advantage over Shaq, I think. If Amare is guarding Gasol, he'll probably be pulled away from the basket as Gasol will opt for more face up midrange jumpers once Bynum is manning the low post, and that might hurt Amare's shotblocking and rebounding.

Hill and Odom is an interesting matchup at both ends of the court. Odom's size will probably give him an edge if he tries to take Hill into the post, but Odom is notoriously stupid when it comes to taking advantage of a size advantage like that and is usually more effective when he uses his speed and agility to gain an advantage over a bigger, slower defender (which Hill is clearly not). Odom's height/length might give him a few good drives at the rim (unless Amare & Shaq are there to block it), and might bother Hill on a shot if he's rotating over from doubling away, but odds are that Hill's speed will allow him to find a lot of good looks with Odom defending him. The danger there is that the Lakers could switch and have Kobe guard Hill and put Odom on Raja, since Raja's more apt to be spotting up than he is to be looking to create his own shot.

The real problem with the Lakers once Bynum comes back is just the multitude of looks and lineups they can throw out there. They could very well have either Bynum or Odom come off the bench if they wanted, and could use either Radmanovic or Trevor Ariza (if his broken foot heals up) at SF. They could even go with Gasol and either Bynum/Odom out there with Kobe at SF and Sasha Vujacic at SG.

The other big issue with Bynum returning is if the Suns will continue to be able to rebound like that if the Lakers have Bynum, Gasol and Odom on the floor together. Bynum and Odom are both regular double-double guys and Gasol's a guy who will usually get you 8 or 9 boards as well, so it's tough to imagine badly outrebounding a team with all that size out there.

by WildYams on Feb 21, 2008 4:35 PM MST up reply actions

Bell-Kobe

We can analyze and over-analyze, but the fact remains that this game was decided in the Raja-Kobe matchup. If they have their average, Bell gets outscored by 28-13, not 41-0. This is clearly an aftereffect of the trade, as Raja no longer has the benefit of Marion's rotations on defense, and the focus inside meant the ball never came out for spot up jumpers. when was the last time Raja played 36 minutes and did not score?

Hopefully the suns can correct their defensive rotations and not ignore their spot up jump shooters.

'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Feb 21, 2008 6:05 AM MST reply actions

you make good points,

but, I wouldn't use raja as an offensive threat much, he misses way too much for me, my opinion.. look at fischer, b.davis, kobe, c.paul, all these other teams have guys that nail the three, in my view, only nash (when he looks to shoot) and l.b. are reliable threats from the outside. Diaw should not be shooting threes! The coach needs to be coaching, not letting people do whatever they want, first marion, now diaw shooting threes? What do you think for another player for us? Artest, Miller..probably too hard to get, but I'd trade diaw and barbosa for artest, doubt it works money wise, just my thoughts of course, the team chemistry might slip back to bad

by jasonsuns1 on Feb 21, 2008 11:03 AM MST up reply actions

Don't blame Raja

Raja only took three shots. Its not as if he was jacking up a bunch and missing.

Besides, the Suns scored plenty and shot a high FG%. That's not the problem.

The problem was the Lakers got to many open looks coming off screens and LB continues to be out of position on D.

Mainly though, I think there's an entire new set of schemes to learn now w/ Shaq and Amare on the phone. Who's going to rotate when? When will they trap the ball and when will they cover the roll man? Those kinds of things.

As I predicted (yes, I know how insuffurable I am) the Lakers pulled Shaq from the paint with pick and rolls often and they also picked on Amare's weaker perimeter D.

The more I think about this game, the more I think the key match up is Odom. If we can limit his easy buckets we can beat them.

Phoenix - where bitter happens

by Seth Pollack on Feb 21, 2008 11:53 AM MST up reply actions

On the phone?

Lesson: Don't multi-task a boring conf call and type blog posts...

Phoenix - where bitter happens

by Seth Pollack on Feb 21, 2008 11:54 AM MST up reply actions

On the phone

Funny, srp. ;)

And I agree about Raja. While it would've been nice if a couple of his shots had gone down, he was still the ONLY Sun to finish with a +/- on the plus side (+2). That's pretty amazing when you think about it. Contributing zero points on his own, the team still outscored the Lakers when he was on the floor, in a losing effort. Talk about contributing in intangible ways...

by SueB on Feb 21, 2008 12:07 PM MST up reply actions

And got bonked on the head for his troubles

Reckon we might have had a different outcome with Raja on Kobe instead of LB to close out the 4th?

...of course, we might not have had that little DJ-inspired run if Raja had been available to play...

by TexSUN on Feb 21, 2008 12:11 PM MST up reply actions

Kobe was unstoppable

last night...

The only option at that point is to double him and take the ball out of his hands. It used to be easy to do that but the Lakers are much better now and if you do come you had better rotate fast and smart and the Suns aren't there yet.

Last night, I think you have to just play Kobe 1:1 and shut the other guys down.

Phoenix - where bitter happens

by Seth Pollack on Feb 21, 2008 12:20 PM MST up reply actions

It's a tough loss

I think we played well, when Kobe scores 41 points and gets help from his crew, It's gonna be tough to beat them.

I do have to say this... Kobe was great. Raja and DJ and Hill did their best but the guy was on fire. Every time we made a run...there he was, getting the lead back for his team.

Amare scored at will and got a bunch of rebounds, Shaq dunked on people and blocked shots and got rebounds also...

If the Suns play like this, I LIKE OUR CHANCES!

No time to Panic, be very excited...
Shaq looked way better than we all thought...

by PanamaSun on Feb 21, 2008 7:45 AM MST reply actions

Looking on the bright side

To go along with the name of the blog, after all.

This was almost like the start of a new season, one in which the Lakers had a big headstart since they made their trade weeks ago.

Think back to the REAL start of the season and how the Suns did against the Lakers, at home, back then in Game 2. I'll take this game over that one any day!

What a great game to watch. When STAT got that slam-and-one to give the Suns the lead, I really thought they were going to go on and win. Give the Lakers credit for hitting the big shots down the stretch, when the Suns could not.

DJ. I love the kid. He's a sparkplug.

Get in shape, Shaq. I loved the hustle. But the two-faced nature of the team - with Shaq in and with him out - is going to take a while for all the other guys to get used to. Better if he can be in there longer.

STAT. I wasn't sure he could really BE much better. But 37 points and 15 rebounds says yes.

Take a day and rest. And recover from that nasty bump, Raja. Then let's get set for what ought to be another great game tomorrow night.

Enjoy this stretch, everybody. It's wonderful stuff for regular season NBA. Football-season like intensity. Every game matters.

Thanks for that video, srp. Think they need to work out some technical kinks, but any extra time with Steve is good for me. ;)

by SueB on Feb 21, 2008 8:17 AM MST reply actions

Here's the stat that worries me most

Before the trade the Suns ranked #11th in opp FG% at 45.1%. In the games since the trade that number is 47.4% which is good enough for last place.

There's no doubt that Marion is missed.

I also think that the Suns can get it together but I would like to see more focus on D from the team and coach to address this before the end of the year.

Unfortunately, the schedule for the rest of the year is rough and there's not a lot of room for error here.

Phoenix - where bitter happens

by Seth Pollack on Feb 21, 2008 8:30 AM MST reply actions

Those stats are misleading

We played the Hornets, Mavs, and Lakers.

They're all very solid teams. Of course our average against them will be worse than our league average.

The point is, we didn't get blown out in ANY of the games. We're hanging in there while finding a new identity. That says a lot!!

This team is going to do the reversal. We look AMAZING in the regular season and then struggle in the playoffs.

This team now will not look great but be a serious force in the playoffs. Which one would you rather have????

Come playoff time when Shaq is 100% and confident. He will be spinning around the basket and centers will be picking quick fouls.

Gasol picked up one quick foul. If Shaq was in top shape and was aggressive around the basket. Gasol could've easily picked up a 2nd foul and had to sit down.

by Coolbean04 on Feb 21, 2008 9:32 AM MST up reply actions

Shaq was GREAT

It was his first game with the team so you can see the confusion on the court. You can also see confusion in Amare because he was used to being the C and now has to play like a PF. The team starting playing A LOT better in the 2nd half.

Having Shaq really opens Amare's game, he has more room to run a round and grab rebounds.

Can you believe we had 16 OFFENSIVE REBOUNDS!!!!!! I don't think we had 16 ALL YEAR haha. We also rebound a total 46 rebounds and out rebounded them by 13!!!! I can't even describe how important that is. That's EXACTLY what we need come playoffs.

I honestly think we lost because of Raja (doesn't happen often). If Raja plays to his usual self and was able to score, we could've turn our 1 point leads to 5 or 6 which makes a HUGE difference.

Kobe scored at will against Raja this game and Bell had 0 points. That's the difference in the game and why we lost.

by Coolbean04 on Feb 21, 2008 9:27 AM MST reply actions

Level of play has increased

If we play like this, I like our chances against the Celtics

'07-'08 Suns: It's clobberin' time!

by Hawk42 on Feb 21, 2008 9:35 AM MST reply actions

It's (almost) all good...

As a basketball fan, that game was everything you could ask for, especially in February. As a Suns fan, I feel a little bit like what Grant Hill said about choosing Phoenix: on a list of 10 items, 9 of them checked out, the only thing missing was the money. Ditto last night, it was all good except the bottom line, a loss to the Lakers.

Overall, Shaq looked pretty good. This could go a couple of ways, 1) he was all amped up on adrenalin and he is going to come back to earth, or 2) he hasn't played in a game in almost 2 months, and that was his first game with a new team. I'm optimistic, but as has been noted, this is a tough stretch of games to work out the kinks in. I'm afraid we're going to have to get used to the idea of chasing the Lakers and not having that #1 or #2 seed.

I think this was likely to happen even with out the trade, the Suns 1st place record was largely a function of getting fat off the east, and this set of games was going to level them out anyway. I like what I saw and where it can go, but as Bickely noted in the Republic today, the other thing to take out of last night is that the Lakers are truly legit. As great as it has been the last 3 years to watch them flounder, that party is over and the hated ones are back in business.

by SoCalSun on Feb 21, 2008 10:19 AM MST reply actions

Did the Lakers shoot well or did we let them ?

I missed the game, so I'm looking at the box-score and I'm thinking to myself that I'd take that box score almost every time.

But we lost, and from the Lakers box score it seems that the only thing they did better was to shoot the ball (which of course is the point) from inside. Our 3-pt defense (31%) looks pretty decent, and with the exception of turnovers (and we only had 12) everything else was in our favor.

From here it seems as if the Lakers had an exceptional shooting night, and with another week of practice we would certainly have beaten them.

Can someone confirm or reject that notion.

by Pliny the Elder on Feb 21, 2008 11:33 AM MST reply actions

Lakers' shooting

The Lakers shot very well, but it wasn't a lot of outside shots that were just incredibly going in (except for Kobe and his usual pump fakes near the perimeter). The Lakers only made four three-pointers, so it wasn't a case of them lighting it up from outside. What mainly contributed to the high shooting percentage was all the points in the paint (56 pts, I think I read somewhere), and most of this was Gasol on screen-roll (though Kobe had 3-4 dunks as well, and a number of layups to boot). I didn't have the impression that either team was really on fire, shooting-wise, and thought the high shooting percentages (and scores) for both teams was really more the result of just high-percentage shots closer in.

by WildYams on Feb 21, 2008 4:46 PM MST up reply actions

re: Lakers' shooting

I guess that's something that's correctable, with a little time. While the Laker Nation is celebrating this victory (and they have every right to do so), I'm not at all afraid of the Lakers come playoff time.

Why? well because defense is more about communication than timing, and I think the Suns' defense is going to tighten up considerably between now and the playoffs. Just from this game it's clear that any team that wants to beat us is going to have to shoot a high percentage (>55 %) to do so, which becomes less likely the longer the Suns have to gell.

Will the Lakers get better when Stones returns? Sure, but not as much as one might think, especially since he's so inexperienced, and the Lakers may only have 10->15 games to get it together when he does. The Suns just have much more scope to improve than the Lakers.

And note this: A clearly disorganized Suns team almost beat a Lakers team that has been playing together solidly and on all cylinders for 3 weeks. You can betcha ass Raja will be better next time.

I like our chances come May. I really do.

by Pliny the Elder on Feb 21, 2008 5:45 PM MST up reply actions

Lakers shooting

Some of the Lakers high percentage can be blamed on the Suns' defense. But some of it was that they were just ready to play. Kobe made a number of very difficult shots over good defense, and his stats were padded by several breakaway dunks.

Odom always seems to play well against the Suns, and he's been on a tear of late in any case, this just kept his recent streak alive. Gasol is (and always has been) legit. Sahsa has been much improved all year. Fisher is a savvy, experienced veteran who takes only good (read: high percentage) shots.

Hey, there is a reason why this game decided 1st place in the division, and it's because the Lakers, like it or not, are much improved this year. Here in the LA area it is well documented that the young guys put in a lot of work in the off season, and the main upgrades they've made (Fisher for Smush, Pau for Kwame) have been major upgrades. They've replaced 2 guys who couldn't start for any team with 2 guys who would start for just about every team.

by SoCalSun on Feb 22, 2008 2:58 PM MST up reply actions

Stop - you are depressing me....

Phoenix - where bitter happens

by Seth Pollack on Feb 22, 2008 3:26 PM MST up reply actions

Lakers fan speaking...

There hasn't been much talk about Shaq saying he won't play past next year. That's pretty big news to me. It even makes me a little nostalgic. I haven't liked Shaq since he left for Miami. In fact, like most Lakers fans, I've kinda despised him. But if he doesn't come back, it makes me think back to the good times and the 3 championships. I'd cheer if they raised his jersey in the rafters at the Staples Center.

If the Suns end up winning the Championship, which would be a nightmare for me, does everyone believe that Shaq actually would want to retire on top, or would he be too tempted to repeat and come back?

And I'm not sure how things work when players retire, but if he does retire, does that mean that the 20 million left on his contract would be taken off the books? If he doesn't help you win it this year with his play, he might actually help you just by clearing up so much space money-wise. Hopefully for Lakers fans, the Suns will just start to fall apart after this year. Steve Nash's play does have to start going downward at some point right? Who suddenly improves like Nash does when they enter their 30's. If this were baseball, everyone would be thinking he was on steroids.

by Davyjonze on Feb 21, 2008 11:34 AM MST reply actions

Shaq is not retiring

There hasn't been much talk about it because it isn't true. :)

Shaq said last night in the post-game interviews on ESPN that he has about 730 days remaining in his career. In other words (bad counting aside), he's planning to retire after his current contract expires (two seasons from now), not after next year.

by TexSUN on Feb 21, 2008 11:38 AM MST up reply actions

Shaq

Correct. He's also said he wants to retire with 6 championships, so I think barring some unforeseen weirdness he'll be playing next season.

by WildYams on Feb 21, 2008 4:48 PM MST up reply actions

Not to mention all that cash money

There is no way Shaq is going to walk away from any part of his remaining $40 million. The radio here recently did a breakdown of Shaq's monthly expenses (soon to include child and ex-spousal support) and they are off the chain, he spends something like $110,000 a month on all his various holdings. They reported that his phone bill alone is $3k a month.

There were rumblings of this stuff before the trade, some wishful thinking in Miami that he would hang it up and let them out from under his contract, and he was emphatic then. With a real reason to play now in Phoenix, he's going to keep collecting those checks. Our best hope is that he keeps trying earn them as well.

by SoCalSun on Feb 22, 2008 2:49 PM MST up reply actions

on nash and steriods...

Hey man, the downward spiral for nash has already begun, trust me (my opinion). He's maybe 5% less than last year in my mind, but, of course, it could just be that C.Paul is that good (he made jason kidd look like a punk also), and the west is that much tougher, so, kind of hard to tell. but it could be a quick downward spiral or 5 years, my bet, 4-5 yrs, he's too smart to go quick, and much of his game is based on his mind

by jasonsuns1 on Feb 21, 2008 4:21 PM MST up reply actions

Nash

I agree that it'll still be quite a few years on Nash being ineffective becasue of the cerebral nature of his game. Very John Stockton-like in that respect, only without the jersey grabbing on defense! His passing skill shouldn't be hampered much with the aging.

by KJ7 on Feb 22, 2008 10:18 AM MST up reply actions

Jersey grabbing

I was re-watching the 2nd half of this game last night and there's a great moment where Nash has a HUGE fist full of Gasol's jersey preventing him from rolling to the hoop on a pick and roll.

It was classic. And btw he did the same thing against GSW to prevent Ellis from getting to LB on that last second 3pt attempt....

just saying

Phoenix - where bitter happens

by Seth Pollack on Feb 22, 2008 2:27 PM MST up reply actions

No comments on the cool video?

I thought that was pretty cool deal. Nash in his car taking questions from real people (even if the questions kind of blew).

Phoenix - where bitter happens

by Seth Pollack on Feb 21, 2008 12:28 PM MST reply actions

Afraid to go near it...

...after the...um...minor political debate going on in the Barkley thread. :)

by TexSUN on Feb 21, 2008 12:35 PM MST up reply actions

i think they need to lower the quality of the

video to help it stream better. Also, on the site with all the live bloggers, the site should have a minimum iq requirement of 10 to get rid of all the chatters (non basketball people) I'm waiting for nash to get in an accident, and tell the cop, sorry dude, i was doing my show (side note...of course nash wouldn't get hurt)

by jasonsuns1 on Feb 21, 2008 4:28 PM MST up reply actions